ReFuels N.V. (REFL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to the ReFuels Q3 2026 Investor Presentation. [Operator Instructions]. Before we begin, I would like to submit the following poll. And I would now like to hand over to the management team of ReFuels Philip and Baden. Good morning to you guys.

Good morning, and good morning to everyone watching this slide or watching this on catch-up. Thank you for tuning in to our Q3 presentation. presentation, sorry, as per normal, there is an ability for you to submit questions, and we will do our best to answer those at the end of this presentation. And with further ado, we'll get started. So what is it we do? We are putting 100% renewable gas into trucks called biomethane. At this point in time, we are supplying about 50% of the biomethane that goes in two trucks across the U.K. What are the benefits of putting biomethane into trucks. One, it reduces your greenhouse gas emissions from those trucks in the range of 85% to 90%. And as you'll see later in the presentation, there is also a financial benefit as well. If you look at the number of trucks we've got on the road today, when the group was founded back in 2014, there were 0 dedicated CNG trucks on the road. Today, we've got north of 2,200 trucks refueling through our network every day. I mentioned fuel cost savings previously, but if you look at the overall impact we've had on the fuel cost builds of our customers over the last five to six years, we've helped them save north of GBP 50 million by running on CNG instead of diesel. And more importantly, to a lot of our customers, they also want to make sure that they're doing the right thing by the environment. And if you look at the last 12-month period, we have saved north of 200,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas or helped our customers save north of 200,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions. If we then look at ReFuels and how do we fit into the picture here, we have a group entity called CNG Fuels, which sits below us and Foresight. ReFuels owns 40% of that group, Foresight holds 60% of that group. There are essentially two verticals within CNG Fuels.There is RTFS, which sources biomethane, generate something we call RTFCs, which Baden will touch a bit on a bit later and where we then can generate a margin and a profit from that. And then on the right-hand side, we see CNG Fuels is brand when it comes to the station infrastructure. CNG Fuels, as such is an integrated group, where as I said, we own 40%, Foresight owns 60%, and as you will see in a bit, we are now -- have taken the group, what I would say, out of the build only phase -- and we're now actually also starting to get into a cash flow positive phase where we'll continue to roll out the platform, absolutely, where we're now also starting to see some of the benefits from having invested in what we've been doing over the last 12 years. This is just an example of one of our stations. This is Warrington, that's M62 up in the top corner there, to the West is Liverpool, to the East is Manchester. What you don't see around here, had we been zooming out, you will see a lot of very large distribution centers of lots of large warehouses. These are very efficient pieces of infrastructure where, as of today, we have more than 300 truck refuelings here every day. The drivers do all the work as such, they're unmanned, we can remotely monitor them, and then we have engineers go to site, if there is something that needs to be fixed. If you look at the total volume going through Warrington today, it's just north of about 50% of what we would call steady-state utilization, currently dispensing about GBP 8 million kilos of biomethane a year and generating north of 30 million RTFCs per year. So once again, this is just a good illustration of the type of infrastructure that we put in place and as of today, we are not aware of a more efficient way of putting green energy or a green energy vector into trucks. If we then look at the highlights of our October to dispense -- sorry, to December quarter, our EBITDA for the period is close to GBP 10 million, GBP 9.7 million. That's up 10x from the same period in 2025. We are proud to be raising our guidance again from previously communicated GBP 10 million to GBP 12 million for this financial year to GBP 13 million to GBP 15 million for this year. So what is it that's driving our increase in guidance, operational efficiencies, scale benefits and also higher certificate prices, which are improving margins. Clearly, when you have to build an industry like we have, that will come a point in time when you have to invest and you have to build core infrastructure. Now we're moving into the phase or we will continue to build out the network, but where we're also focused on operations and making sure that there are scale benefits that come out of the network. If you look at the dispense volume, up 13% year-on-year. And we're also proud to see that in a soft overall truck market CNG adoption continues to grow across our customer base. Just mentioned the truck market. The truck market is going through a tough time at the moment. There are a lot of hauliers that are either scaling back or actually, unfortunately, going out of business, likely because there was a bit of over expansion during the COVID years and of course, with a much softer economy currently we're technically in a recession. You will see that there is less need for moving goods around the country. So what we've seen for the last three full calendar year is that the overall truck market new registrations into the market, and this is, of course, a majority of these, by far the majority of these are diesel, new registrations has dropped quite a bit. In that same market, we're growing. So that's, of course, a nice position to be in. But I think it's also important for you guys listening to this, had we been in a more stable overall truck market or maybe a truck market that was growing we would likely grow faster as well. Eventually, the market will turn around on an overall basis, and we expect that to be a benefit for us as well. If you look from the right-hand side of this graph, you see we're mentioning 4x2 trucks, 6x2 trucks. And you see that the 6x2 market is essentially a 6x larger market than what the 4x2 trucks are today. About 21,500 4x2 on the road, about 144,000 6x2 on the road. We've got currently about 10% of the 4x2 market are running on CNG exclusively through our network However, we've only got 0.1% of the 6x2 market. You might say, "well, why is that"? That is because the truck manufacturers have only in the last 12 to 18 months brought out factory built and factory warranted 6x2. As we see record strong interest in demoing and trialing trucks in the 6x2 market, so we would expect our market share there to grow quite rapidly once these trucks go from trial phase into being ordered and being delivered into customer hands. An aging truck fleet also means that you can't just put off replacing trucks forever. Eventually, trucks cut literally to fall apart. And clearly, you can't base your fleet strategy on glue and duct tape keeping trucks together. So as we were in a period now where there is a lot less replacement of vehicles going on, eventually, they would have to catch up. And we estimate that over the next 10 years, there's about 100,000 trucks that need to be replaced. And more importantly, the vast majority of that truck replacement cycle, the fuel technology has not yet been decided. So once again, it's really exciting years ahead for us there to be able to influence our customer base to move away from diesel and particularly important now that the 6x2 CNG trucks have arrived. I previously mentioned, there are basically two benefits for our customers here. One is they can -- by running biomethane, they get to save approximately 85% to 90% greenhouse gas emissions compared to diesel. That's incredibly important for the majority of our customers who've got GHG emissions, which are essentially [ novel ]. As an example, 50% GHG reduction by 2030, maybe 100% by 2035. As of today, there's really only one technology in town, and that's biomethane or fuel vectored town that can provide them that. But more importantly, a majority of our customers also can't afford to go green and lose money. So if you look at a base case comparison here, which is a typical diesel vehicle, yes, a CNG truck on the right-hand side here, the CNG truck is typically GBP 25,000 more expensive to buy. However, the fuel is cheaper. So when you then look at the payback period, and this is a simple cash-on-cash payback period, a typical truck, diesel truck by its first owners kept for five years. Yes, some will keep them shorter, some keep them longer, on average, it's about five years. If you're running HVO, 100% biodiesel your payback period on your additional investment in our CNG truck is less than a year. If you're running a regular diesel truck on regular diesel, your payback period is about 1.5 years. Of course, depending on mileage. So if you drive a truck a bit shorter mileage will be a longer payback period. If you drive it further or longer mileage every year, there'll be a shorter payback period. But what we're seeing here is cash on cash, very strong financial reasons to also adopt biomethane. And then when you put in the GHG savings you get into win-win scenario for our customers, and that's why we're seeing some of the really large PLCs in the U.K. now mass adopting CNG trucks. We sometimes get a question. Philip, there is a bit of uncertainty in the biodiesel market as to what type of [ feeds ] and the availability of feedstocks actually produce biodiesel, that's not the case in the biomethane market. As of today, we do not see a shortage or the market isn't seeing a shortage with regards to feedstocks. On the contrary, we are aware of close to GBP 30 billion going in to expand biomethane production across Europe over the next five years. This figure is almost a year old now based on discussions that we're having with large infrastructure investors, private equity investors we'd expect that figure to be larger today, but let's go with the official stats we've got. So close to GBP 30 billion is looking to expand upstream capacity. So that's -- why is that important to us? Well, of course, we want to source biomethane and make margin out of it. But of course, we want to source biomethane so that our customers can be -- have certainty that they are actually running on biomethane and not fossil gas. And this gives us the confidence and the visibility -- forward-looking visibility to do that. So where are we then on our rollout of our infrastructure network today. Today, we've got 16 grid connected stations operational, and we've got 11 so-called MRS is Mobile ReFueling Stations. We do have a business plan now that takes it out until the end of 2028, where we're looking to have 25 grid-connected stations, either operational or in build and considerably larger number of mobile refueling stations closer to 30 of those in operation. So that would effectively double our theoretical refueling capacity, and then you might say, well, if you're only refueling 2,200 trucks a day, you've got theoretical capacity of 11,500. Why would you want to take that up to 20,000, because a lot of our customers don't just operate trucks where we've already got stations. They want to adopt CNG as well in areas of the country where we -- where we today do not have a station and therefore, continuing to expand the network, particularly in parallel with the 6x2 adoption increasing is very important. Speaking of stations, this is just an overview as to what we've opened recently and what is coming. We've got Livingston in Scotland, which opened in May last year. We've got Magor in South Wales where construction is well underway. We've got Swindon, where we are expecting to make a final investment decision very shortly, just waiting on a couple of things there to fall in line. And then we have a third site that we'll be going to build later this year, and that will be announced in due course with the exact location. If you then look at the biomethane that we put into trucks, clearly, there are a couple of elements there. It's the cost of the biomethane, but also the RTFCs, which is the certificates that we generate from those. Baden will talk a bit about margins on those in a bit. But what we're currently seeing is that yes, RTFCs can be volatile. That's just the nature of operating in a market-based mechanism. But what we are seeing is the certificate prices have essentially returned to the historical averages, and we are starting to see the benefits of that. And of course, there's a lot of supportive biofuel policy developments here, particularly across the EU with the RED III Renewable Energy Directive #3, legislation that is about to be implemented, which is also supportive of this longer term. If you look at biofuel mandates, as I just mentioned, we in the U.K. are a bit of a laggard. We are here, we have a quite flat curve with regards to the type of the amount of biofuel that is used in transport. We are expecting a consultation from U.K. government imminently from the transport to look at potentially increasing those targets. I mentioned the RED III implementation. The one at the top there is just showing Germany's ambitions out until 2040. That is currently going through German legislative approval process and of course, you can see that there is a huge gap between the ambitions in the U.K., which we expect to be increased going forward. But more importantly, the German ambitions which are being ramped up is -- and it being the largest biofuel market in Europe is going to have a significant impact on the overall biofuel market, whether the U.K. makes changes or not. And with that, I will hand it over to Baden.

Thank you very much, Philip. So just for those of you who haven't watched us before or a reminder to those who have, what we're seeing here and what we show is actually the financial results of CNG Fuels being the operating entity that you saw previously in the earlier structure slides. Why do we show that? Well, CNG -- well, obviously, ReFuels owns 40% of that, and that is its primary holding, and that is, therefore, is this is the best proxy for performance that we can show to investors or market participants to show them the performance of the ReFuels entity itself. So what we've always said, had a very strong quarter. Year-to-date revenue is up 22%. That is to compare against about 13% increase in volumes. So -- and that's, of course, you've seen our margins are obviously continuing to improve very well. We have a 72% increase in gross profit up to GBP 10 million in the quarter. And the split there, which I'll go into maybe on the next slide, is about 33% to the CNG station business and 66% to the RTFS to the biomethane side of the business. EBITDA has gone from breakeven in the comparable quarter last year to GBP 5.6 million in this quarter, and that's doubled from the GBP 2.8 million we made last quarter. So again, a very -- a substantial increase in EBITDA once again, these additional volumes at good margins have broken up through our -- through the cost base and how we're really seeing that driving straight on to the bottom line. Philip has already described the difference between CNG Fuels and RTFS. But just a reminder, for the business on our revenue streams, we have two business -- have two revenue streams that are essentially correlated by volumes alone. One is the RTFS revenue streams, which is from the biomethane side of the business. So that's the buying -- purchase of biomethane seller and the generation of the RTFCs, margin we make from there. And then we have the CNG station business downstream, where we sell -- where we sell the Bio-CNG to customers and generate a compression charge on that. And so those two -- those two revenue streams are linked by volumes, but fundamentally otherwise are noncorrelated. So that's why it's so important that we're now starting to see first of all, excellent EBITDA contribution from RTFS continuing, continuing to grow. But also the CNG station business itself after many years is very, very soon to break even -- and of course, that also involves the research and development and new station activities that go on within that entity. And so that is -- that will be an exciting milestone that is happening in the near term, where both parts of the business the both -- and both revenue streams will be contributing to the earnings of the business and no part subsidizing any other part of the group. In addition, we also generated and sold a record 82.2 million RTFCs in the quarter. That, of course, great news by itself. But being the end of the obligation year under the RTFO, that means that our customers were also 100%--received 100% RTFO approved biomethane through the 2025 year, which is very important to them for their -- for reporting their emission savings. So that's obviously, that's a great milestone for us as well as business as them being able to report those. So as Philip also mentioned, we have increased our guidance, 20% for the financial year. So obviously, our financial year finishing shortly on 31st of March this month. It's GBP 13 million to GBP 15 million. On that, again, is on the back of continued strong margins coming against the sort of end of year volume growth, which, of course, continues to grow throughout the year. It is -- we've also achieved the highest gross profit margin on our RTFC sales. We've seen for three years now, so over 30 years, about 31% -- and that, of course, has helped drive those earnings forward for -- yes, which has resulted in the upgrade to our guidance. Really important to note and of course, you've seen recent turmoil in the energy market or you've certainly have heard the recent turmoil in the energy markets. But the business has sold forward, essentially all of its RTFCs for this calendar year and into 2027 and source the biomethane that we require for the same period. So that's obviously got two excellent benefits for the business. One is a very strong visibility on our earnings for the coming financial year, as well as also having very little RTFC and general commodity exposure for the year ahead. Clearly, whilst this turmoil plays out. That's a very good position for the business to be in and exactly the kind of position we want to be in, where we want to make sure we minimize the risks and just continue to focus on growing underlying volumes for the business. With that in mind, it's worth noting that we still -- that we -- the other day, we gave a light amount of guidance for the year ahead, guiding on volume, not on EBITDA of 15% to 20%, which is consistent with the prior year's growth -- we are reiterating that and we believe that is because we do see a continued soft haulage market for the year ahead, there are some signs that it is starting to turn the corner. But we believe it's pretty prudent to say we'll grow about the same amount in volumes as we did in the prior year. And that's because we're still seeing growth coming through even in the soft haulage market as customers do continue to want to decarbonize and have committed to doing so. So that is as close as we will go from now. Finally just a reminder, and again, to those who may be new, last year in April, we completed a restructuring transaction with Foresight Group. And a reminder of the rationale behind that, that was to bring the CNG station assets back onto the balance sheet of CNG Fuels, which had two effects. One is that we are starting to see the earnings come through the biomethane side, and I can see the station business is coming out close behind it. Now we, of course, gets to bring have both of those earnings streams, but also bring on to the balance sheet, very large number of a very large asset base to essentially underpin those earnings. And we're really starting to see that strong balance sheet provide the benefits that we were hoping for, both in the cost of funding that we are seeing when we -- when we're looking at the market for future funding and the ability to optimize our funding going forward, as well as seeing customers still being still placing orders for new trucks in a relatively difficult market because we have said, we have improved our strength as a counterparty, and we've seen this as well in the improvements in our credit ratings recently. So that's -- so the justification there, I think, has worked out well. We've got GBP 25 million credit facility with Foresight Group currently drawn to about GBP 5 million. We're fully committed that over the next two stations which you've -- which Philip showed earlier, one, which is obviously not disclosed yet where the site would be -- so we will look to go to the market again at some point later in the year, continue to optimize our funding mix, but to access additional funding for the next round of CNG stations. And with that, also just to remind everyone, we have -- we do have a process. We are looking at the moment, which is the potential for dual listing or an uplisting in order to improve liquidity in the stock amongst other reasons. And we are continuing that process at the moment. And obviously, we'll update the market in due course as we have more information on it. Thank you.

Thanks, Baden. I will then wrap up before we provide a bit of a summary, before we get into some Q&As. And I can see there's some questions coming already. So please feel free to -- yes, to send those through. As Baden mentioned, when we announced in April of '25, so almost a year ago now that we had kind of collapsed the previous structure we had with Foresight, where we had brought -- at that point in time, we had three verticals and bought everything in under the CNG Fuels umbrella. We provided a bit of a stake in the ground, if you want, of what things could look like at the end of 2030. And clearly, there's a lot of ground to cover between now and 2030. All we basically said was, listen, if you -- or if we believe that we can get to approximately 8,000 trucks on the road by the end of 2030 and given certain margin assumptions we believe we can get to a quarterly EBITDA figure in the range of GBP 25 million to GBP 30 million. Is that something that we stand by today? Yes, that's something that we absolutely feel is achievable and what would that then result in, that would result in us clearly having grown a lot from where we are today. We've just released north of GBP 5 million of EBITDA. So we need to have 5x that between now and 2030, which we believe is achievable. If you look at overall, to summarize the quarter we're in and what we look ahead, as Baden mentioned, we've provided, if we can call it, soft guidance that we reckon we will grow there or thereabouts, maybe a bit faster volume-wise for the next financial year compared to what we're doing this year. It's also important for us to continue to grow out our refueling infrastructure. So that we can cover other parts of the country that we're not covering today. And this is particularly important now that the 6x2 adoption is starting to move into a phase where, once again, we will have customers who will need refueling infrastructure in geographical locations we haven't got today. And finally, the guidance is up again from GBP 10 million to GBP 12 million to GBP 13 million to GBP 15 million. It's -- the plan that we've been putting in place for a number of years now is now actually starting to be executed on and is starting to deliver results. And with that, we will -- I will reduce that down, so I can see the questions, and then we will jump into the Q&A. And as I said, please feel free to send through questions and we'll do our best to get them answered.

With that, I will start with the first one. Can you explain the impact on the business of the recent developments in Iran? Well, clearly, we're in almost unprecedented times with regards to turmoil in the global energy markets. Diesel prices are up, gas prices are up. There's a lot of turmoil out there. I don't think our crystal ball is better than anyone else's crystal ball with regards to where -- what the end game is going to be here. All I can say though is that the business -- we are in a -- and have always been in a risk management position. We are not exposed to gas prices that come up, diesel prices that come up, et cetera. So as such, this will play out over time, but just a bit of a data point maybe, you have to recall here or remember here, hopefully, that in 2021, 2022, there was unprecedented turmoil in the European gas market as part of the Russian invasion of Ukraine in February '22. Yes, gas prices have come up in Europe over the last couple of weeks, but if you look at that spike compared to what we came through as a business back in 2021 and '22, we are still way off the peak prices that we saw back then. So I mean, this will work its way through the system at some point in time. How long it will take, I don't know, but these are territories and these are not uncharted waters for us as a business, this will pass this as well. Then we've got the next one, which is -- they were article over the weekend about the U.K. running out of gas. Is that true? And what does that mean for customers. I think I've seen some of the similar articles thinks it was mentioned that there's only two days of gas storage in the U.K. So let's just sort of pull that one apart slightly. Yes, the U.K. has very little of its own gas storage, which is about two or three days of consumption but that doesn't mean that the U.K. is going to run out of gas. So just to give you some figures. About 43% of all gas we use is imported via pipeline for Norway, about 43% is domestically produced in the U.K. and the rest comes in via LNG into three different LNG import terminals. In addition, we've got the storage, as I mentioned, but we're also connected to the EU gas market through two independent so-called interconnectors, meaning that we can export gas to Europe or we can import gas from Europe. So -- as such, it's an integrated energy system we have in the U.K. with regards to gas supply, and we do not see a likelihood whatsoever that the U.K. is going to run out of gas. And as such, probably those articles are looking for sensation list at clickbait rather than actually giving the facts to how well supplied to the U.K. gas market is. Then we move on to the next one, which is about the truck market. When do we think the truck market will turn a corner? I suspect this is in relation to the chart we had showing that we were three years of reduction and overall registrations of trucks in the U.K. Things here it's important to understand we do not sell trucks. That said, we do have our finger on the pulse with regards to orders of CNG trucks, clearly. But when it comes to the overall diesel market -- or sorry, the order and purchase and delivery of diesel trucks, we don't have visibility of that. That said, when we have -- when we do speak to the truck manufacturers, which, of course, we do on a weekly basis, they seem to think that the market is bottoming out or might grow marginally this year. But of course, this is a -- this could change. If we have a recession that prolonged recession, that will change. But there are indications that the truck market might be bottoming out this year and starting to grow again, which, of course, would be a benefit for us because we believe our growth rate will be even higher in an overall positive market rather than a declining overall registration market. We have another one on truck orders. I think we've largely cover that one where I'll do it again. What does it mean for the future orders when less trucks have been replaced for two years? Well, clearly, trucks need to be eventually replaced -- and when you are putting off replacing a truck for six months or three months or a year or however long it is, eventually, you need to catch up because trucks do literally wear out. Things start to break, things -- the overall maintenance cost becomes so high that it's much better to go and buy a new one. So eventually, the downward trend will turn, whether it's this year or next year, who knows, but we believe there is a limited amount of additional runway that a downward market can have, soon or later trucks will need to be replaced. Has there been -- have there been any changes in the competitive landscape or in alternative fuels. Not really, no. I mean, there is a lot of focus. As always, about electrification of trucks. The reality there is, however, that there is this huge gap between ambitions and reality, and reality -- the reality just doesn't support mass adoption of large electric trucks for now. As such, the majority of our customer base or the majority of the trucks are run by large companies. They have to decarbonize over a certain time frame, some by 2040, some by 2035, some by 2032, et cetera. And as such, the alternative that they're all looking at today is biomethane, some at a more aggressive time line than others. But no, we haven't really seen the landscape change. That doesn't mean that electric trucks aren't going to start to fill a role, but we see that role being filled initially in a city and urban distribution, not by running up and down the motorway, which is our core market. What is the risk of the market running out of biomethane over the next few years?. We see that as extremely low. We don't see that as a considerable risk at all. We see a lot of new production coming online. And that production is -- will be supportive of supplying our growing demand, our growing need for biomethane over the next 2, 3, 4 years. We do expect to see competing -- uses of competing demand for biomethane such from the maritime sector -- but as of today, as far out as we can see, which is the next 2, 3, maybe 4 years, we expect there to continue to be a healthy supply situation with regards to biomethane across Europe. What are the biggest challenges in expanding the Bio-CNG infrastructure model beyond the U.K. into other markets? So first of all, let's sort of take a step back on that one slightly. The way we do our stations is quite unique, if not very unique in a European context. The scale in which we operate at, the fact they're unmanned, there's a lot of IP that's gone into it. It might just look like we poured some concrete and put down some compressors. That's not the case. There's a lot of IP that's into that, which is quite unique in a European context. Now if you then look at four Bio-CNG to be as successful across Europe, we believe you will need to replicate the type of stations we've got in the U.K. I attended the conference last week and got a question, why is the U.K. an outlier? Why is CNG growing faster in the U.K. than LNG has a truck fuel, we would say because of the infrastructure and because of the backbone that we've developed. So the big challenge here is really rolling out what we've done in the U.K., which has taken many, many years to replicate and we would see that if we were to enter into European markets in the future, it would likely have to be either through a joint venture model or through some kind of M&A activity, building it organically would likely take too long. This one for you, Baden. What is the typical payback and ROI or Return On Investment of a new station once it reaches full utilization?

Yes. So we've sort of published figures around this previously, we generally look at the return on CNG stations just purely from the compression margin we charge, obviously, when we dispense volumes to customers. We don't use the RTFCs in these calculations. But generally, we see a typical payback period on new station around five years, and that's a station that cost somewhere between GBP 8 million to GBP 10 million. Free cash flow yields are extremely healthy, again, just off the compression charges, anywhere north of 25% on initial investments but in IRRs, as we've previously published 15 years unlevered IRRs north of high 20s into 30%, depending again on the pressure tiers we're connected to. So as a piece of infrastructure, they are very healthy payback periods and obviously makes sense to continue to build those out when they're well in excess of our cost of funding.

Thanks, Baden. With that, I think that was the last question. So yes. That's the final question, unless someone is very quick and types one in, then I think we will start to wrap up it here.

That is correct, Philip and Baden thanks for addressing those questions to investors. And Philip, if I could just ask you for a few closing comments to wrap up, that would be great.

Thank you, and thank you once again to those of you who've tuned in and showing an interest in what we do. As we continue to say, when you're building out a new industry, which we essentially have starting something from scratch, things take time. It's taken us basically 12 years to get to where we are today. With the visibility we have ahead, we're now starting to really get into a mode where we can focus on two things. One is to continue to roll out infrastructure. So we can cater for particularly the growth that we are expecting from the 6x2 market, but also starting to deliver returns, positive returns on what we've already invested -- and that we're starting to see, given the EBITDA generation we made in the last quarter. We've upped our guidance. We're feeling quite good about the quarters ahead as such. Why? Because -- this is -- at the end of the day, we have developed infrastructure. Yes, there are market forces out there that can move us around and will move us around in the future. But once we get up to a certain level of utilization there is stability here in what we do. So as such, thank you very much for following us. And I hope you guys will tune back in towards the end of May or early June.

Thank you. That's great. Philip and Baden thank you once again for updating investors today. Can you please ask investors not to close this session. As you will now be automatically directed to provide a feedback.