Robinhood Markets, Inc. (HOOD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Well, welcome, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Ben Budish, I'm Barclays analyst covering U.S. Brokers, Asset Managers & Exchanges. And for this session, delighted to have Vlad Tenev, Co-Founder and CEO of Robinhood. I think you were saying this is your first in-person conference since the company went public with the Street, at least?

I think that might be true, yes.

So delighted to have you here for that. So thanks much.

Well, actually, it might be my second, but first one with you.

We're still happy to have you here. So thanks.

Yes, thanks for having me.

Maybe just to start off the most recent kind of news, you had your August data come out last night. Can you kind of -- for anybody who might not have seen that, what are the kind of most recent trends? What sort of engagement are you seeing from customers? How are people behaving in this kind of market environment?

Yes, it's certainly an environment that keeps changing. You get new information every day, seemingly that moves the markets. And I'm sure everyone here and you're aware of the latest inflation [ print ] that people are talking about. I think, in terms of how customers are feeling, it's a little bit different than the environment of 2020 and 2021. Google Trends, for example, is a way to get an idea of this, right? 2020 and 2021, people were really interested in investing in stocks. There was widespread participation in the stock market. Now people are talking about gas prices and inflation. And so kind of as a company, we've really -- it's been interesting. We've had to really think about how can we help our customers, which we have 23 million of, in this particular environment, which is unlike one that they've seen in the past. So you mentioned the August data. August data is always -- it's a little bit backward looking. We were pleased to see increases month-over-month in some of our key transaction metrics. So options trading, for example, was up 30% month-over-month. Equities trading, up about 30%. Net funded accounts and monthly active users were sort of steady to maybe up a little bit. So it's certainly -- we're sort of holding and the trading business is maintaining and some months growing in the environment. But what we've been focused on is how can we give people tools to give them more daily cash, help them navigate the inflationary environment with higher yield on their cash and through stock lending, generate some yield on stocks as well. And I think we're starting to see customers kind of understand that Robinhood can do a lot more for them other than just be a tool for them to get into the markets and start investing.

Great. And I definitely want to dig into the product suite a little bit more, but maybe just on the customer base. I think a lot of brokers have sort of like a power rule where you have a -- some sort of 80-20 relationship, smaller number of customers doing a lot of the trading. I think that's what's sort of kept, over the last couple of months, your volumes relatively steady despite the market continuing to go down. Could you maybe speak to that a little bit? What does the demographic look like in terms of, I don't know, heavier users, lighter users, more consistent traders, maybe using more complicated strategies?

Yes. Yes, this is really interesting to us, too, because traditionally, Robinhood has focused in terms of product development and our marketing as well and how we talk about our value proposition, very much to first timers. If you think about the value proposition of the product, it's all about democratizing finance for all, which is our mission. And what that means to us is, it's really building exceptional products for ordinary people. We're not targeting the hedge fund managers. We're not targeting institutions. We really want to be the best place for ordinary people to have control over their financial lives and to give them all the tools that were previously reserved for wealthy people. So lots of -- in the past, we've had that focus primarily on first-time investors. But this year, it's been a little bit of a shift for us, and we've been focusing on the customers that we already have that are very engaged on the platform. And they're a little bit more sophisticated in the sense that they're using multiple products, and they are engaging in options trading and crypto trading. And we actually had a conference a couple of months ago, where we had a lot of these customers come to our offices, and we would share new products with them, we'd share designs and kind of prototypes. We got to know them a little bit. It was super instructive because your conception of someone who's an active investor might be someone with like 3 screens, and one of those turret headsets and one of those keyboards that's shaped like a pyramid. But these were normal people that had jobs and came from all sorts of backgrounds all over the country. And they're just people that have taken a few more steps in how to learn to invest and have gotten a little bit more sophisticated through their use of Robinhood. And so we've been learning a lot and we've been building really interesting products that have been helping them navigate this environment. So a lot of improvements to our options offering. A lot of improvements to crypto. A lot of additional things like stock lending and our cash sweep that allow you to generate yield. And recently, we rolled out advanced charts as well, which we are really proud of because we built it natively. It took a little bit longer, but the user experience and the design and the product experience, specifically native on mobile has been really nice. So we've started to see some really, really good feedback there. So we've been -- we were doing a lot of things, which I think has contributed to the volumes being on a relative basis strong relative to how the market's been doing. And I think as we continue, hopefully, we'll see that trend continue. And as the market sort of inevitably recovers a little bit and the macro fears ease, I think this will put us in a great position to come out really strong.

Great. So maybe sticking on the product side. You talked about the advanced charting. Can you maybe talk about some of the other financial services, perhaps a little ancillary from trading like securities lending, which I think you last indicated $3 billion is enrolled as of the last earnings call. You have a couple of other products. So yes, in terms of the product suite, how you see the company evolving to a more holistic financial services provider beyond the original use case of trading?

Yes. Yes. It's very important for us. And along with our shift to focusing on the 23 million or so customers that we have, the goal is to make sure for those customers that we help them with all of their financial needs. So obviously, we don't want to just get someone as their first brokerage and have them graduate to a discount broker or kind of a wirehouse or a bank. We see an opportunity to help them with their broader financial needs. And so some of the things that we've been doing, you mentioned stock lending and interest on cash, that makes it compelling -- the idea is for it to be really compelling and for it to add a lot of value to actually hold the bulk of your assets in Robinhood. So stock lending, for example. What that allows you to do is if you're not trading stock, if you're holding shares of equities, we can lend those out for you and help you generate yield on that portfolio as it's sitting there. Now a lot of brokers and a lot of the sort of traditional firms, they offer these services only to high account value customers. So you have to have $100,000 or more in your account to benefit from it. And we've really figured out a way through technology and automation to make it much more broadly available. So it's things like that. Retirement is incredibly important to us. Each successive generation of customers has started saving for retirement a little bit earlier. So for example, baby boomers started saving at about 35. Gen X went down to 30. Millennials, Gen Y started saving for retirement at 25. You've got folks in Gen Zs that are opening retirement accounts at an average age of about 19 years old, which is really interesting to see. So people are becoming interested in long-term savings at an earlier age. And we think that sets us up really well to help them with that aspect of their lives. And so we're going to be excited to roll out a retirement offering and help people do that.

That's great. And I know there's not a lot you can say because the product hasn't rolled out yet, but you guys are very design-focused company. And I imagine there's going to be some unique Robinhoodness of whatever this IRA product looks like. Can you speak to that at all? Understanding there's maybe some things you can't share. But...

Yes, I think there's -- well, I can tell you for every product that we release, we don't want to just check boxes and fill people's requirements on what's required for a retirement product. We really want to go a step further and actually innovate both on the user experience and the simple design and also the economics. And we did that, for example, with zero commission trading and equities options and cryptos as well. So we really look to innovate in those 2 areas. And I think -- we like to build things ourselves and do things a little bit differently and kind of challenge the status quo. A lot of people think retirement is this boring thing, how much innovation could there really be. But I really think people will love our product when they see it.

Great. Well, we're looking forward to it. Can you talk also about the cash card a little bit, just thinking again about the suite of financial tools. It feels like for some of the -- some of your fintech competitors, that's been -- especially the ones that have started with like P2P, that's been sort of the main driver of monetization. And perhaps with the big trading business you already have it's less important, but maybe also important to your customers. So in terms of engagement, you have a unique rewards program associated with the card. Any other kind of details or stats you can share?

Yes. I think the kind of genesis behind the cash card is, we've done a really good job at serving first-time investors and being someone's first brokerage account. And we see an opportunity when we look at that customer segment, really people in the age group of 18 to 24, let's say, someone who is maybe starting at college or getting their first job, we want to reach them in those moments and help them not just become an investor and open up their first investment account, but also be their first spending account and their first place to start saving money. So it's really about broadening the value proposition and being more useful to customers across their most important financial needs, specifically for customers that are a little bit younger. And so -- yes, a couple of the really valuable things there, making it easy to deposit your paycheck, giving people access to their paycheck 2 days early, making it easy to invest not just your paycheck, but also on every swipe we'll let you round up your spare change, and we'll actually give you a bonus on top of that roundup that you can invest in your choice of either crypto, equities and ETFs. Or also take a part of your paycheck and sweep it into our high-yield product that earns you passive income on your cash. So just looking at what people need, particularly in this environment and rolling things out that make those day-to-day things easier. And one thing that's been really popular, we rolled out merchant rewards on our debit card just a couple of weeks ago. So that gives customers discounts, instant discounts when they shop at certain merchants. And -- yes, we have a variety of discounts, including cash back at gas stations, and in the high gas price environment that's been really interesting to see how people are kind of adopting that and benefiting from it to save money at the pump.

Great. Another kind of product question around -- back to the sort of trading suite. You rolled out extended trading hours earlier this year. And can you perhaps talk about what the uptake has been. I think the idea was that a lot of your clients, they work day job, they're not available to trade during 9:30 and 4 p.m. What does the uptake looks like since you've rolled that out? And do you see this evolving towards 24-hour trading, is that something in the future?

Yes. And actually, we announced it. When we announced it, it was really intended more as a stepping stone toward the eventual goal of 24/7 equities trading. One of the first things that we kind of noticed as we entered the space is, it's really bizarre that U.S. equity markets, which are increasingly global in nature, it's like the biggest, most important market in the world, are tethered to East Coast American working hours, right? And it made a lot of sense before markets were electronic, when people actually had to show up at the exchanges and process the trades in the trading pits. But now everything is in data centers, in New Jersey and in different places around the world. So yes, it didn't make sense to us that there's still this legacy kind of 9:30 to 4:00 p.m. East Coast tethering. And so we're -- we definitely think the future is, all markets will be 24/7. Technology can do that. It's mainly just legacy barriers that are in the way. And so we'd like to get there and accelerate that. And part of a big step along the way is just increasing the trading hours and watching liquidity build up, seeing how customers engage with the updated hours. And what we've been hearing from customers is what they really like is to be able to respond and change the risk profile of their portfolios, make trades around certain news events, a lot of which happen before market or after hours. So I think that's a lot of what customers are interested in just being able to dynamically reallocate when things are happening. A lot of times, those things happen at off-hours.

It makes a lot of sense. I imagine you have a lot of customers who also want to trade crypto at the same time to trading stocks or options and the crypto market is 24/7. So maybe that will lead me to my next question. Maybe first, can you talk about the product offering pipeline? I think the most recent one was Cardano, but there's maybe 14 now, I think. So in terms of -- maybe speak a little bit to like what the process is, the pace of new tokens added. And maybe any thoughts on pending regulatory changes in terms of token versus security. I imagine as a registered broker-dealer, you're pretty well positioned to kind of handle that, but any thoughts you may have.

Yes. I mean there's a lot going on in the space. I think that Robinhood has been looking to deliver differentiated value across the board. And it's really those 2 things I said earlier. Why -- people use Robinhood and our crypto offerings, no exception because we give people -- we give our customers a great deal on transacting the crypto, and the ease of use and the customer experience is really good. So over the past year, we've rolled out crypto wallets. So we have what's called the custodial wallet in our main app that allows you to not just buy the coins, but also send them to an external wallet or use them to pay for transactions. You can take coins from the outside world into Robinhood and we can help you custody them as well. And we've increasingly been adding different networks, both layer 2 networks that tend to have lower transaction fees and additional layer 1 networks, both to the wallet and for trading. You mentioned Cardano, for instance. And then we're also building a non-custodial wallet. So this one is very interesting to us because as everything has gone more and more digital, there hasn't been an analog to just carry cash in your pocket, right? There are certain advantages to that. You have total control of it. You know where it is. You don't have to depend on the bank branch being live or the banking website being up for you to have access to your money. And the idea with our non-custodial wallet is how can you give people the control that people have associated with self-custody with kind of the user experience and the low cost and low fees that people have come to expect from kind of these centralized solutions that have been more efficient. So we're excited to roll that out too, and we think that -- we think it's going to be a really great product and customers are going to love it.

I'd love to dig into that a little bit more because we've -- the research franchise here, we've been doing a lot of work on crypto. And one of the things we found is we're trying to do our own experimenting and just playing with DeFi applications and the like, it's tricky. If you're not really into it, if you're not an engineer, it can be very challenging. So yes, can you talk a little bit -- again, I understand the product hasn't been rolled out yet. But how are you thinking about making the user experience easier to access, NFTs or DeFi or any kind of other tools that somebody might want to use?

Yes. I think a big part of it is being really intentional about what's kind of prioritized and included in the interface, while also embracing self-custody in the sense that if someone really knows what they're doing and wants to go to a specific protocol or website, we should be able to make that easy and have like really seamless integrations there. So the key use case will be swapping. So it's basically trading crypto for other crypto. And what we found is the biggest pain points that customers have swapping cryptos in non-custodial wallets, all have to do with the gas fees and the transaction fees. So in some cases, you have not just kind of the commission or transaction fee of around 1%, but the gas fees, especially in times of high network congestion can be $25 or up to $100 per transaction. So -- yes, finding a way to reduce or eliminate those, I think just will make the product way better, in addition to making sure the UX is simple and easy to use.

Great. Maybe talking about your approach to kind of growth regarding new customers. I think on last earnings call, you talked about opportunities to do more brand marketing. I know you've also been talking about doing -- trying to balance things, like new customer acquisition versus existing customers. Maybe first on the brand marketing side, can you maybe talk about initiatives you may have? Should we expect to see more advertisements on the subway, on TV, on podcast and what have you?

Yes. Well, I think we did a lot of brand marketing in 2021. And as the environment has shifted, we've kind of moved away from that this year, and we've been focused on other things, like making sure that we're really rigorous about expense management, we're efficient. We're running lean. We really launched a lot of products, too. So it's been a year focused on a lot of product delivery. And I think as we kind of come to the close of the year and start looking at the holidays and we see the environment shifting, I think, there are opportunities to tell the story again of, all of the things that Robinhood has done, particularly this year and how that positions our customers, which really are this next generation of customers, is very different than other folks that have been engaging in finance before, how they're thinking about the environment and how we're helping them. So yes, I think there's more to do. Of course, talking about brand marketing in the abstract is always a little bit tricky. You kind of have to see it and hear the message. But yes, we'll probably be doing a little bit more of that in the future.

Great. So we talked a lot about the products. You guys have also been kind of focusing on getting more lean as you had this phenomenal growth in 2021. There's been some -- a little bit more focus on optimizing the cost base. So maybe first, how do you think about balancing growth and costs? Because it seems like the product pipeline, you haven't really slowed down much. Is there anywhere where you're pulling back? Or is it kind of full steam ahead?

Yes. That's been really interesting to see. A lot of times, you kind of get into this mode of, you need to hire more people to build more things. But we found, especially this year, as you mentioned, it's not the case. We've been able to maintain, and in some cases, accelerate products even while sort of focusing on leanness and efficiency. And I think really the credit goes to all of the folks at Robinhood. People have been working very, very hard. There's a lot of empathy for our customers because our customers have gone through just a very tough environment, not just with the inflation, but also crypto winter in the past couple of months has really hit with crypto prices off of their all-time highs by 50-plus percent. You've got the equities markets and particularly the innovation stocks, which younger customers are really interested in because they believe in the future. Those have been getting hit very hard. And so there's a lot of empathy for the needs of our customers among Robinhood employees and people have just been really motivated to build for them and keep making the product and the service better and roll out great products. And I think that's really helped a lot.

Great. On the topic of kind of getting leaner, I know you've talked about achieving EBITDA profitability by the end of the year. And I'm sure you're not here ready to...

Adjusted EBITDA, to be fair.

And while I'm sure you're not here ready to kind of give fiscal '23 guidance, what can you say to help us kind of think through the implications again, thinking about balancing growth and you have a very robust product pipeline versus kind of optimizing the cost structure? How should we think about balancing or how you're going to approach balancing the two?

Yes, yes. I think that we've already done quite a bit on optimizing our cost and being efficient. It's -- there's always more to do. But I think we've been surprised internally at how much we've been able to do. And it's not just the headcount reductions, but looking at things like how much we're spending on software, how much we're spending on cloud hosting and things like that and really making sure that we're being as lean and as efficient as possible. I mean it's really been in the DNA of the company from the very beginning. From the first products we launched, we were all about how can we use technology and automation to do things with 100 people that maybe would have taken a legacy discount broker or a financial firm, 1,000 people to do. And so -- yes, just making sure we keep doing that, I think, is going to be important. And we did get a little bit away from that in 2020 and 2021, which I own. And I think sort of this environment has forced us to become much more prudent in how to operate. And we're not letting up on growth. I mean I've talked about so many of our product initiatives, right? But really making products better for people that are more active, continuing to sort of think of ways to help customers when they're not actively trading as well with the cash card and with high interest and retirement and other things that are coming. I think the goal is to make sure our costs are such that in a really bad macro environment, the business is sustainable and actually making forward progress. And then we should see kind of outsized returns when the market environment and the macro starts to improve.

Makes sense. Sticking with the topic of capital allocation. So there's a pending acquisition of Ziglu. Can you talk a little bit about what that company is and what they do? And we will maybe dive into a few more details.

Yes, sure. Ziglu is a great team and a great company. They're a licensed crypto neobank in the U.K. So essentially, they have a mobile-first product that allows you to trade cryptos. They have a debit card, and they also have an interesting product called Boost that allows you to earn yield. It's powered by crypto, but you can earn high yield on pound sterling and on Bitcoin through it as well. And a big part of the mission of Robinhood from the very beginning has been to democratize finance for all, which doesn't mean just in the U.S. I mean, there's billions of people outside of the U.S. that don't have access to nearly the same quality of tools that we have. They don't have access to the same markets, investment opportunities. Lots of places don't even have functional banking systems. And so I think over the long term, we'd like to make Robinhood available everywhere. Everywhere, there's an app store, anyone with a smartphone should be able to download our app and get really affordable, high-quality, easy-to-use financial services. And so with the Ziglu team, the idea is to them to help us expand into the U.K. and eventually Europe. And then in that process, we're really improving our core infrastructure, making it easy to easily expand to other areas like Asia and Latin America and beyond.

It's very interesting. I think there are very few financial services providers, especially the retail folks that have that kind of global footprint. So what do you see as like the challenges to kind of achieving that? I think your brand name is probably like pretty well recognized, maybe relative to a lot of competitors in other countries, so I imagine that would be a benefit. But what else are the kind of challenges from a regulatory perspective or acquiring customers, [ its ] behavior of retail traders? Does everybody just stick with their bank for everything because that's what you do in some countries? How do you think of those puts and takes?

I think a big part of why it's traditionally been difficult, and you've had a lot of these local financial services players, is that brick-and-mortar traditionally has been a bigger part of the service model and how you acquire customers. And beyond that, a lot of financial services companies have traditionally been focused on more affluent customers, high net worth individuals. And the U.S. market has just been a much easier place to operate and get that type of customer base. So I don't think there's anything inherently sort of showstopping about it. But Robinhood is well positioned, not just because we have a focus on ease of use and low cost but also, we don't have that brick-and-mortar service model, and we're mobile phone based. And as you've kind of seen more and more things become possible with your mobile phone, I think that sort of sets the table for financial services companies like us to expand internationally more quickly and actually serve customers. And you've seen over the past couple of years, U.S. stock trading, which was very much sort of a U.S. phenomenon and high net worth individuals overseas, start to become interesting to smaller investors in certain pockets. So I do think it's shifting. And of course, there's going to be obstacles. We'll have to make sure we have really good infrastructure. We have to have a really good service model in multiple languages. And regulation is always sort of something to keep in mind and it's specific in each market. But those things have actually become strengths of Robinhood over the past few years. So 3 years ago, I probably wouldn't have been up here at a conference saying we feel really, really strong and in the way we have approached regulatory compliance in our service model. But we've made a ton of progress. And now we have world-class teams, and I think we feel really, really good about being able to take that overseas.

Great. And maybe one last question there. Do you see crypto as the tip of the spear given that's kind of what Ziglu already does? Or is it the -- as you go country to country, is it more you're kind of evaluating what do these -- the citizens of this country need? Do they not have a good crypto offering? Do they not have a good way to trade local and U.S. equities? How do you think about it that way?

Yes, we do see crypto as -- there's 2 aspects of it, as an asset for people to trade, it's likely going to be the first asset we offer internationally just because it's global by default. It trades 24/7 and equities aren't quite 24/7 yet, though we're working on that. And so as an asset, I think it does lend itself to going global. I think what's interesting about crypto also is that -- I think right now, crypto and traditional finance are kind of living in 2 separate worlds. I mean the crypto folks have their own conferences. You can kind of viscerally see it. But even the products and the assets, there's been so much -- there's been an explosion of like crypto tools in the past couple of years, but you're mainly collateralizing cryptos with other cryptos, lending them against other cryptos. And I think what you'll see more of in the future is the 2 worlds sort of merging. And in some cases, crypto replacing the infrastructure underlying traditional financial products. And so we're excited to sort of help accelerate that. And I do think you'll see more things that give you real tangible value and allow you to invest in real-world assets that are powered by crypto and where the end customer might not really even know that crypto is in the mix. An example being the crypto Boost product that allows customers -- Ziglu customers who hold pound sterling to generate yield. I mean, obviously, there -- they know crypto is behind it, but high yield is something that's valuable to customers regardless of whether crypto is in the mix or not.

That makes sense. We've got about 5 minutes left, and I have a few more questions I could ask. But should we see if there's any questions in the audience?

Sure, yes. That sounds fun.

On the crypto side, it seems like you've been, I want to say, fighting with one arm tied behind your back in terms of how many coins you [Technical Difficulty]. So now that some other players that are more may be aggressive in that regard are either going out of business or seeing [Technical Difficulty]. Are these securities, or are these not securities, how are you thinking about market share?

Yes. That's a good question. So I think that one of the things that we really think about is customer safety. So I mean, there's certainly -- I think we could always have a little bit more clarity in terms of what qualifies as a security. I think a lot of people have sort of criticized the application of the Howey Test, which is multiple decades old. But for a lot of these things, I mean, it's very -- you can apply things like the Howey Test, and you can make determinations that are reasonable about whether they're securities or not. And I do think that operating with that constraint and making sure we're really rigorous about what the listing process is. And we're not out there listing every single coin that pops up or every new coin offering, I think, is important. And people have come to sort of view our selection of coins as being a more vetted sort of higher-caliber selection. And we have been listening to customers and seeing what they're interested in and expanding the selection over time. So yes, I think it's certainly a different approach. But as you pointed out, over the past couple of months, a lot of these projects have had weak fundamentals and they turn out to not be as decentralized as maybe it would seem. And so I think it's important to make sure that we apply a really high standard and that what a coin is listed on Robinhood. Customers sort of have a higher expectation that it's vetted. And I do think over the long run, you'll see that reflected in market share and sort of the brand reputation of Robinhood.

I had 2 questions. The first is to become profitable, and I'm old school, so I'm going to say GAAP profitable, do you need more share of wallet or your client's too small and you need wealthier clients?

I think that -- well, there's a couple of levers, right? One being expenses, which I think we've been doing a fantastic job just making sure we keep under control and decreasing over time. And on the revenue side, the business has been getting more and more diversified over time. So one path is serving our active customers, which do -- there is a power law in active customers, tend to generate the bulk of our transaction-based revenue.

Which is why I'm asking the gas-specific question. Do your nonactive -- do you have -- can you grow your active customers [indiscernible] migrating to interactive? And then the second point is, which I haven't heard anything that says you have better features than interactive and I've been listening closely. But the other question is for the 80%, do they have enough money? Are they wealthy enough? And are there appropriate investments? Is it appropriate for them to become active traders? Or do you need to pull in new accounts?

Yes. Yes. I mean in terms of interactive, we actually don't see a ton of churn to them specifically, and churn has been declining and -- at the lowest level in years. So we do look at that. And there are certainly ways that we can improve the product experience for our active customers. We've added really good advanced charting. We've added the ability to trade options in cash accounts. We're working on some really good and unique mobile-focused options tools as well. And we talk a lot about crypto. A lot of active customers love having their crypto and their stock and options in one place and really benefit from the low fees and the great UX. And on the sort of other group, the ones that are less active, you're seeing us roll out our cash card, which over time will generate diversified interchange revenue that's less dependent on market conditions, as well as generating high yield on cash, as well as securities lending, both fully paid and margin. And as we roll out more features for Robinhood Gold, that will sort of -- that will increase the subscription revenue, which tends to be more stable and resilient in market volatility.

I'll end a last one and I can hear people rumbling and the screen's going off. What percent of your clients have actually made money investing in crypto?

I guess we don't really release that number. It's been certainly a tough year for customers because global crypto prices, Bitcoin are down 50% to 60%. But a lot of them are actually thinking about crypto as a long-term investment. We released this stat a couple of months ago that if you look at actually recurring investments activity in Robinhood, so people buying and holding and kind of dollar cost averaging, the #1 recurring investment was Bitcoin. So it's less -- people aren't buying Bitcoin and trading in and out of it. They're really seeing it as a part of their portfolio that they think should be there over the long run and should have a certain allocation.

So almost no one.

Almost no one?

Almost no one has made money then if they bought it and held it given the trajectory of your assets and your inflows?

Well, I don't think that's true. I mean we offered crypto since 2018. And if you look on a lower -- on a much longer time scale, actually crypto prices...

You didn't have any customers in 2018 as asset on a value basis, right? Did you have any crypto in 2018?

We had customers in 2018.

Not many. Okay. I'll stop. Sorry.

I'm afraid we're out of time there. So Vlad, once again, thank you so much for being with us. What a pleasure to have you here. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. Yes. It's been a pleasure. Thank you for the questions.