Rocket Companies, Inc. (RKT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and thank you for joining us. I'm Mihir Bhatia, and I cover consumer finance here at Bank of America. We're excited to welcome Rocket Companies to our Global Technology Conference this morning. Joining us today will be Jay Farner. Jay is the CEO at Rocket. Jay, welcome to the conference.

Thanks for having me. It's great to kind of be here virtually, and hopefully soon, we'll all be able to do this together physically, but excited to talk.

Absolutely, I think everyone is excited to get back to a more individual contact, I guess, in person.

So why don't we get started? I'll start with just the numbers maybe a little bit. So coming out of the first quarter earnings, the #1 topic, we've got questions from investors on is margins, particularly as it relates to the competitive intensity that's going on. So let's just start there. Why don't you talk a little bit about the competitive intensity in the space or the margin pressure you're seeing, specifically in the wholesale channel, but also talk to us about, is that bleeding over to other channels? Give us an update on how you expect margins to trend here for the -- maybe for the rest of the year. And what your view on margins is from here?

Sure. Absolutely. Well, if we just take a quick step back and think about 2020, we were able to scale tremendously and take advantage of what were probably some of the best margins we've ever seen in the history of the mortgage business. And so I first want to acknowledge the team because they did an incredible job in March and April, while others were struggling to continue to operate, and that really gave us a boost up in 2020. In 2021, we're kind of normalizing back to what I would consider more standard margins in the mortgage industry, which our business is built for. If you look at what we accomplished in 2019, the margins are very similar to where we are today. I think the difference would be, although the margins and rates are very similar to where '19 compared to where we are today, our business is still tracking to have the best year it's ever had. And I think that speaks to the scale and our ability to scale in all of our channels. So although the economy has reverted back to pre-COVID, our volumes continue to look like 2020 volumes, which is exciting. So when I think about margins, I think we're kind of back into the normal trading range, at least for us. As you're probably aware, our margins tend to run, I think, higher than the industry. And in particular, we see that because of our brand and our technology, our client service. That allows us to focus less on margin and focus a lot more on making investments and taking care of our clients, and that's what they think about. When we look at the wholesale margin, it's, again, come back to maybe pre-COVID levels. And so what we've seen in the past, and I'm sure we'll see it here in the future as well, is that if you're in a space where price is the primary lever that you have to compete and you're watching the market shrink, then you'll lean into margin. We're very fortunate that we can operate at a wholesale margin or a normalized wholesale margin and still be very profitable in that space. But we're also very fortunate that we have the technology, the brand, the client service that makes margin less of a focus for us than others. And so kind of put all of those things together and it puts us in a position to gain market share, I think, while others kind of given up here in 2021.

Got it. And we definitely want to talk about the technology aspect in a second, but maybe I'll push you a little bit more on this topic. Your wholesale competitor clearly took actions that were aimed at you in the wholesale channel. I guess you and someone else. But big picture just -- let's just focus on Rocket, right? How is your relationship with brokers changed as a result of that? Have you had to do things to match prices, things like that? And have you seen any impact in terms of just the number of brokers you're working with and the volumes you're getting from those brokers?

Yes. So look, I think it was aimed at us only because we're the fastest-growing competitor to the firm that you're representing. And so anybody in that position taking significant market share would probably be a concern and so then you would try to take action to blunt that growth that we're experiencing. It actually worked very well for us, and I'll explain why. In a market where competition really benefits the broker, if you have efficiency and you can scale, then you pose a threat, I suppose, to others. And so I think the thought process was we can wall off or protect a certain subset of brokers or prevent them from working with Rocket, then our competitor would have maybe more control over price. I don't know. But what it did was it actually caused brokers to align with us. And so now someone who may have been sending some of their business to competitors and some of our business -- their business to us decided that they would work with us. And so we saw significant, what we call, wallet share gain with all of those brokers. So from a kind of size or volume perspective, it really didn't have much of an impact. But what it also did, I think, is set a clear path forward about who is willing to play in an open market, who is willing to be thoughtful around brokers, continue to compete and who wanted to maybe more isolate brokers and kind of put an ultimatum to them, not really to us. The ultimatum, I think, [ goes ] to the broker community to say, either you work with us or you're going to be fined if you go to some other provider. In that space, competition is good for the broker. Competition is good for the consumer. So it allows us -- last thing I'll say on it is it really allows us to start opening up some other strategic opportunities that we've had, but by not being certain about which brokers were in our camp and which brokers weren't in our camp, I think we had to be kind of walking a fine line. Now that that's clear, we can be more aggressive in some of the strategies to grow the market share there and leverage our Rocket platform. Remember, as the largest retail lender in the country, we have great access to clients. As the most respected brand in the country, we have great access to clients. And so how do we leverage that access, continue to strengthen our relationship with the brokers in our partnership and then provide them those clients? Because as a platform, whether a client receives a mortgage because it's B2B or whether they use a broker partner, another partner like Charles Schwab, we really don't care. They're all getting their mortgage through us. And so a client may say to us, I would prefer to work with a broker that's local to my community. Great, we will help that client connect with that broker. Our platform continues to grow. So it really opens up a lot of strategic opportunities that we hadn't been able to roll out before that we're starting to roll out now. So I guess, in the end, no change to volume, really no change to margin, but a big change to our ability to strengthen these relationships and engage in these strategic programs that will grow -- will allow us to grow market share in that space.

Interesting. That is actually a very interesting point about how you can increase your strategic relationships, and we'll keep an eye out for some of these. I guess, hopefully, we'll hear some announcements and things like that. But I suspect a lot of that will also be under the radar, but we'll try to track it. So maybe let's talk about...

I was just going to say, I'm sure you'll hear about some of those things, but nothing clarifies like clarity. So once you have clear understanding of where everyone sits in the marketplace, you can be really strategic about how you go win business, and that's exactly what this has allowed us to do.

Got it. Great. So we are at a technology conference, so let's talk about technology for a little bit. Now one of the things that I think a lot of us from the investor community or the analysts who covered mortgages was struck by as we went through the IPO process with Rocket was that you've really leaned into technology a lot and really way before fintech, if you will, was a buzzword or was involved. So I think -- and it really has been demonstrated a couple of different times, but particularly from a financial standpoint and your ability to scale when there's dislocations in the market, it seems like you all are really -- Rocket really benefits from that and is able to gain scale. But that said, technology spending and capabilities are always a little difficult for us to judge from the outside. So maybe talk to us a little bit about what you are doing and how technology is different for you than for some of the other -- from what you see in the marketplace from other competitors. And maybe just give us an example of -- or 2 on how your investments in technology are paying off. They're either driving cost efficiencies, maybe helping you gain market share, something like that.

Yes. As you mentioned, I think technology has been the backbone of our organization for 25-plus years. I can recall when I first joined the organization, we launched something called Mortgage in a Box to centralize mortgage sales, then, of course, the Internet arrived and we launched our first Internet site. And we were doing the same thing that a lot of folks were doing. We're thinking about the front-end portion of that application, but we also then started tying in all of the underwriting engines that existed at that time. And that was the first decision to try to bring the decisioning up to the front of the funnel. And it does a variety of things. It delivers great client experience. It delivers certainty, but it also makes sure your back-end operation is far more efficient. That's continued on here over the last 20 years. We've, of course, continued to upgrade the front-end experience through Rocket Mortgage and our TPO portal, which we're investing significantly in right now. Our Rocket Pro portal, that's where insurance agents, financial planners originate through us, proprietary technology that we've built, and we continue to refine to allow them to get licensed across the country to originate for us. So that's where a lot of our technology dollars are going. But it's also continuing to bring that decisioning to the very front, at the point of sale. And that's something we call Rocket Logic. And so I'd like you to think about why mortgages are so decentralized and so fragmented. In every county, in every city and every state, there are different rules or different guidelines based on a Fannie loan, a Freddie loan, a Ginnie loan, a VA loan. And so to understand all of these guidelines, understand how property works in your particular county, understand how title works, whether there's an attorney involved, not attorney involved, that's why this industry grew up being highly fragmented. And it's very hard to take a human being and train them on all of these rules and all of these guidelines across all 50 states. But if you can build a system that knows all of those things and only determines it needs to collect certain information or certain data based on the set of criteria or data it's already collected, now you can make someone, an insurance agent, who doesn't have a ton of experience, an expert. And you can make that decision about whether the loan will qualify at the moment in time now that the expert is starting to collect the mortgage application. And that's Rocket Logic. Rocket Logic takes all of that knowledge that many of our competitors rely on people having, right? When you see interest rates drop, people will go out and hire hundreds of underwriters. Why do they do that? The most expensive person you could hire, they hire them because they need that knowledge. But we've got that knowledge in Rocket Logic. So we provide that to our retail loan officers. We provide that to our broker partners. We're now providing that to our Rocket Pro partners. And so it empowers everyone to be an expert originator. It also increases our pull-through rate. So when an application comes into our system, our clients know exactly what to expect. And we know that there's very little waste. So as we work out a loan and get it through the system, it pulls through at a far higher rate than everyone else. That's another benefit. Then the third is, if you're very certain about what you need at the point of sale, the speed at which that application can close is reduced drastically. And we got a lot of smart financial people here watching the conference. If you're hedging your pipeline, if your pipeline has got hundreds of thousands of mortgages in it and you have to hedge it for 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 days, that's a far different economic proposition than if you only have to hedge it for 10 days. And of course, if you're spending on hedging costs, that can be passed through to the client, you become even more competitive in the mortgage space while still maintaining great margin. So that Rocket Logic technology has a variety of great implications. And so we continue to scale that and roll that out. Other places that we're investing dollars are Rocket Homes platform. So we've decided to be the largest retail purchase lender in the country here over the course of the next 24 months. How do we achieve that? Well, we continue to grow our brand and align with real estate agents across the country, align with brokers across the country. But we also have to make sure that we're providing great real estate experiences for clients because one of the first things that they do when they think about buying a home is they go online. So we've been growing out our Rocket Homes platform. That means our MLS listings, that means our mobile app, that means our realtor network, that means the integration of mortgage, title, appraisal all into the real estate experience that ties into our real estate insights technology that we're investing in to ensure that our real estate agent partners have access into their clients' loans, so they can see what's required, when it's required. They can have certainty around the fact that the loan is going to close, and that ties into our overnight underwriters to ensure that we're speeding up the process. If a real estate agent needs an approval, they can turn something in or their client can turn something in at 6, 7 p.m. in the evening, they can wake up the next morning and the loan's approved. So you're seeing our technology in all of these buckets and it aligns with our restructuring of our business that we've done in the last 60 days to ensure that we have proper leadership and proper budgeting in all of these channels because that's how we're going to grow. That's how we're going to continue to grow market share in a rising rate market is to ensure that we have the right tech investment in each one of these channels to bring to bear what our clients require in each one of those channels. So we're providing a different, better experience than anyone else's in the industry.

Yes, that's a lot. That's a lot of detail. Maybe -- so maybe just talk a little bit about what are the impediments to digital mortgage or of past sale closing? You talked about some of these specialized local requirements. And how is Rocket poised to help speed that process up? Is it just continuing to invest in technology and getting as much automated as possible? What else needs to happen?

Yes. You probably touched on one of the most important distinctions, I think, which is the way that we think about leveraging technology than our competitors do. We're not in the business of digitizing the current mortgage process. And in a lot of cases, what you see is you see someone taking paper and putting it on a screen, but behind the scenes, the same human being is doing the work. They just moved from paper to screen. It doesn't add efficiency and it doesn't increase speed. What we're in the business of doing is changing the mortgage process. And I'll go back to Rocket Logic. One of the reasons -- or one of the things that significantly slows down the mortgage process is the fact that there are a lot of unknowns. At the point of sale, at the moment that the client says, "I want to move forward with that buying that home." Getting that mortgage, you're locking in the interest rate, do you know all of the conditions and all of the things that will be required to close that loan? Right now, I'd say the vast majority of the world and our competitors do not know. So they start the process and over the course of days or weeks, they learn more information. That information changes the process. It slows down the process. It creates a bad experience for the clients, and that's the current process that exists throughout most of the industry today. If you know the information at the point of sale, you can now prioritize how you collect that information, right? You can be reaching out, getting in front of any potential concerns. You can ensure that you're pulling all the information at the same time, you're speeding up the underwriting process. In many cases now, using machine learning. There's an initial underwrite that we're able to do that the technology is doing for us. And so you reduce the work that needs to be done over time to get that loan closed. By reducing that work, you speed up the process. The project that we have here to accomplish that is called [ Velocity ]. And we've been, in the last 5 or 6 months, really doubling the investment there because we're seeing great gains on what we can achieve, not only in refinance but purchase. And sometimes purchase isn't about when you close, it's about how quickly you can bring certainty to the buyer, the seller and the real estate agent. So we may have certainty within 8 days. We may not close for 30 because that's when the seller wants to close. But the point is the certainty required knowing you will close is there. And in a market like we're experiencing right now where there are 3 or 4 or 5 offers above asking price, it is critical that a mortgage client look like and act like a cash buyer. Without that, there's a lot of fear that down the road, as you're waiting to close, you might lose that property because something pops up in the mortgage experience. So moving all of that upfront helps us make sure that, that doesn't occur for our client base. And so I think that's the difference. And then the last thing I'll add to that, as you're doing that, you're starting to recognize components of work that can be eliminated. And so either eliminated through technology, eliminated through our data science team. There's so much data available to us. We have nearly, I would say, almost all of the U.S. households, we have a robust set of data around those clients. And so how can we use that to populate our mortgage application and our thought process well before an underwriter is looking at that file. Again, spotting any concerns, pulling a loan that may have concerns ought to be worked on by experts, but keeping all the loans that don't have concerns on the fast track to getting them closed in 10 days or less.

Right. No, that's interesting. The point you raised about getting the documents upfront and knowing what you need, I think it's a very -- probably something that a lot of people can relate to. Most people have been through a mortgage process and given the interest rates, have probably been through a couple of those in the last few years, too. And certainly, the experience, it makes a huge difference whether from a customer service standpoint when you know what's needed. And then I did want to ask you, you mentioned housing and you have a lot of offers about asking and things like that. How -- you have a pretty unique position as the largest mortgage vendor, you probably get to see a very broad overview of the housing. So what is -- tell us what's going on over there. Is it just really a supply-constrained situation? Is there something that you're -- is there something else going on with the market other than just supply?

I think there are 3 components going on right now. The first is something that really COVID helped kick off. And I was watching here this morning, I think Facebook went out and said that anybody who wants to, I guess, apply to continue to work from home full-time can do so. You and I were talking before this conference started here about the variability, the flexibility that we're providing our team members, so I think that's across the entire country. And so as people think about this flexible work schedule, they think well, where am I going to spend my time if it's not in the office? Well, it's going to be in their home. It may be in their primary residence or maybe in their vacation home, is their home set up? That's why our cash out levels are at record highs right now because people who don't want or aren't going to buy a new home are investing in their current home. Other people are looking for new homes to take care of this new life that they're setting up for themselves. So I think that's one big component. Of course, low interest rates never hurt, right? It's incredibly affordable to own a home in this country right now. And so that's playing a role. And then the third is lack of inventory. If we look back over the last decade on the single-family residence that have been built, we are behind in creating inventory. And now we're watching supply chain problems. We're watching construction cost rise and so that's not helping the creation of inventory. So all of those things combined is making for a really competitive marketplace. Things we can help solve for, though. And so if we go back to where we are, we'll have programs we'll be announcing here over the next quarter that will empower our client base, our closed client base to be in an even stronger position to have confidence in the way that they sell their current property and the confidence they can have to buy their new property. So this is where I think we're uniquely positioned to excel to bring a different experience to our client base. And that's one of the things that we were just touching on. You were talking about the collection of documentation. As we continue to grow from 5% to 10% to 15% to 20% of the mortgage market and you think about the clients that we service in our servicing book, we're talking to them every month. So a large percent of the U.S. population is in our book. We have data on those clients. It's not just a matter of them giving us the data. It's the fact that we already have that data and information. And so when we identify an opportunity for them to save money or when we identify an opportunity for them to maybe move up to another home in the area that best suits their needs, we can streamline the experience because we're already servicing their mortgage. We already have that relationship. We already have that data. And so that's that flywheel accelerating. Every time we add a new client, the lifetime value of that client for us is far different than the lifetime value for anyone else that competes with us. And so that's why I'm excited about watching that flywheel spin. That's why I'm excited about adding additional MSRs. All of these things, we're uniquely positioned to benefit from like others cannot.

Right. So maybe staying on that topic, that is a good point you raised, and it actually leads nicely to my next question. That is a statistic you have been highlighting since you went public, and I think it's changed a little bit in how you highlight it, but your -- effectively your customer retention rate, right? So talk to us a little bit more about that. How much are you marketing to your existing customers? What does that mean, right? I mean most -- I guess, most of us have -- most people who have mortgages talk to their servicer theoretically every month when you send a payment in. But what does it actually mean for Rocket when you talk about that customer retention rate or that statistic? Because I don't know that most investors or people would consider just sending my payment in every month as a relationship with my servicer, right?

Yes. It's a great question. And it's how we think about that servicing book differently. And a lot of people in the mortgage industry will call it a recapture rate. Does the loan run off or do you keep the loan? We call it a retention rate because our relationship is different with our client based on the platform that we've built. We're not simply thinking about recapturing the mortgage, we're thinking about engaging in the real estate experience. We're now thinking about engaging in the auto purchase experience, the personal loan experience. So with the NPS scores at the level we have and the J.D. Power awards that we've been winning for well over a decade, our clients want to do business with us. And so we need to think about the retention rate, which is north of 90% on our servicing book. It's a client relationship... [Audio Gap] [ insight ] multiple times a month. We're providing them information about their taxes, their escrows, but also the equity in their home. Information because of our Rocket Homes company, information about the neighborhoods that they live in, the patterns of growth in equity in the neighborhoods that they live in, listings that may be relevant to them if they've demonstrated a possible desire to move. We'll start integrating automobile information because think about it, we already know if their car lease is coming up or their car loan is coming up. We know possibly the type of vehicle that they drive. And so if that's coming to a close, and we've got Rocket Auto, and we know where current automobiles are, we can show them those things and how quickly they can have the car delivered right to their doorsteps. So our servicing platform is an engagement platform. We can help them with their credit score, get a soft credit report, all of these things we provide and so we can engage with our clients. I think that's one of the reasons, I think, for 7 or 8 years now in a row, we've won the J.D. Power award for mortgage servicing because the way that we approach that is far different. And why do we invest in that? Why do we invest in technology, the brand, the human power because that retention rate and that lifetime value for us really empowers us to lean in, especially as we were talking earlier, as rates rise and continue to grow market share, to continue to capture those clients because we know they're going to stay with us for the lifetime of their home-buying or refinance experience, right, for years and years to come.

Yes. I want to come back to the rates rising in a second, but just very quickly staying on this customer retention point that you raised. We had Black Knight on with us a couple of days ago. And one of the things they mentioned was they bought some of your technology because they were so impressed with your customer service. And you sold it to them, right? Because I think my understanding through the IPO process when we talked about this a little bit was that, from your perspective, it's not just technology, it's also the culture at Rocket, the customer service culture. So it wasn't that you were like, "Yes, fine, sell the technology to others. We have a culture. And there's something more than just technology that's enabling this." So maybe talk to us, just maybe a couple of minutes, on the culture and the customer service type, what's different at Rocket? Why are you confident that even if others had that technology, it's not going to make a difference. You still will be the leader and have the ability to retain that customer.

Well, I think some of that comes back to a philosophy about technology. So if we built technology or we need to build technology that will really provide a strategic advantage to us, then you're going to see us own that tech in most cases, you're going to see the fact that we're probably not going to sell it to somebody else. If we built good technology that makes the client experience better, but we really don't see it as a differentiator, then you might see us license or sell that to a partner because although we're helping that partner and there's a financial gain for us, we don't see that as a competitive -- we're giving away a competitive advantage that could be harmful, I guess, if other folks are using it. So that's our core philosophy. But the other thing that you touched on is the culture piece and the client service piece. So our client service team members across the company from originations to operations to servicing are here in the States, the vast majority here in Detroit, Michigan on our campus. We're talking to them every single day. Yesterday, I spent 5 hours doing an ISMs day with 1,100 of these team members talking about our culture, talking about who we are, how we make decisions. Dan Gilbert spent 26 years kind of drilling that home, and I really learned over time that if you don't have a foundation where everyone working here has this common understanding of why we do things and how we treat people, then it's hard to grow an organization. But if you do have that foundation, then you can continue to grow. And again, I go back to the best example I can think of is 2020. Going from, I think, $145 billion or $146 billion to $330 billion or whatever we did, that growth has never been achieved before in the mortgage industry during a pandemic, while working from home, all because of the culture because our team members are aligned, they're thinking about the client, they're thinking about the strategies and executing on those strategies. I know we could not have achieved that without that culture. So we -- that's the first place we start. If you come to Detroit and we go over our objectives and our key results, the first ones we will go over are our team member objectives. Because if our team members aren't happy, if our team members aren't engaged, they can't take care of our clients and everything kind of falls apart from there. So that's where we start. And as you pointed out, that's where technology on its own probably only gets you 1/3 of the way there. The rest comes down to the team that's leveraging that tech.

Got it. And then maybe circling back to rising rates. What we often hear from investors is Rocket's ability to generate purchase volume. You have -- everyone agrees you have a very, very strong brand and a very strong direct-to-consumer presence on the refi side. On the consumer side, though you are among the largest purchase lenders already, there continues to -- probably because of your strong refi position, which overshadows that, there continues to be this perception that you struggle with rising rates and with -- so maybe talk to us about you laid out a goal of being the #1 home purchase lender in 24 months. I assume some of that is going to come from some of these investments and strategic -- and I guess, maybe I'll leave it open. How are you going to go about achieving it? And where should we -- from the outside, what are the signs of progress we should be looking for to see you if you're making progress on it?

Yes. Great question. So I think as we've gone through this journey, the decision to talk about a goal of largest retail purchase lender in 24 months was an important one for our team members. I'm sure it can help analysts and investors as well, but just kind of coalescing around that goal internally was really the driver behind that. And over the last 3 or 4 years, what we've been doing is making sure that we've built out all of the channels required to achieve that. And so of course, the brand starting to really relate to real estate agents, ensuring that they understand that we know that they're hand-in-hand with the client and they're a customer of ours just like the end buyer of the home is a client of ours as well. So we're giving them that visibility. We're setting up that tech. We've got north of 50,000 agents that are now subscribed to our real estate insight network to have that access. The other thing that I've touched on before already is the growth in Rocket Homes. We now have, I think, approximately 2 million visitors coming to that site as we get to the end of the second quarter. So we're engaging at the top of the funnel with real estate. That's critical. Our Rocket Pro platform, another thing that we've been building out over the last 2 or 3 years to ensure that real estate agents, insurance agents, financial planners all have the ability, if they choose, to originate. And by the way, if they want to originate and they have a broker partner that they work with, we'll align those real estate and brokers up. Again, we're originator-agnostic here. So we know how to help or leverage our work with all of our partners. Because we've got multiple channels, we don't have to protect one channel. We can work in all channels as long as those loans wind up on our platform, and we're the one underwriting, processing and closing those mortgages, we're happy to grow in any one of these channels. And so you've seen us lean in, you see us invest in technology. You're going to start -- some of the indicators, you're going to start seeing us invest in the branding and advertising. You'll start noticing that as we get into the second quarter of this year and into 2022. You're going to see or hear us participate more in real estate-type conferences or things of that nature as we talk more to real estate agents about how we can bring value to them. And then data, the last thing I'll probably focus on here is data. Our data science team, a hundred strong, understanding how to identify prospective purchase clients before they purchase a home, before they put their home on the market. So we can be there at the top of the funnel to assist them. And we're not -- I'm not able to talk about those things now. But as we get into the second half of the year, we'll talk about different initiatives at Rocket Homes to assist those clients who are thinking about selling in ways that others can't. And so that's really behind the scenes in the last 2 years, these tech investments, these operational investments, these leadership investments and standing up these programs will start emerging as we get into the second half of 2021 and into 2022. All of that will help us grow in the purchase market. The last thing I'll say is just certainty. That's all nice, but at the end of the day, you got to take that application in, you've got to close that application. And so we study and measure every single day the anticipated closing date that the real estate agent partners, that the broker partners and that our clients have. And every day, we're making progress to ensure that more and more and more of our loans hit that anticipated closing date. Our mission, to have the highest or best anticipated closing date percentage in the industry. And if you're doing that and delivering, that's what everyone cares about. They will send the business to Rocket because they want that loan to close. They want the experience to be great. And that's what I think what we've demonstrated over the years that we are capable of achieving that.

Great. Thank you, Jay. I think that pretty much brings us to the conclusion. Obviously, we have lots more questions that we could keep talking about, and I'm sure I'll be calling in to Sharon and the rest of the team with those. But thank you so much for your time. It's been very helpful for us, I think, and for investors. Thank you.

You bet. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.