Rockwell Automation, Inc. (ROK) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and thank you for joining today's session. [Operator Instructions] Today's event will be recorded and will be available right after its completed. You can access the recording utilizing the same link used to access live events. After the webinar, we will also be sending you an e-mail with the resources from today's event included in the slide handouts and event recording. Additional information regarding today's topic can be found in the handheld panel on the webinar platform. With that, I would like to introduce our speakers for today.

Good morning, everyone. I am [ Chris ], and I'm responsible for our Information Solutions System Integrator Program in North America. And I'd like to welcome you to this exciting topic where we have one of our partners who's created a great solution that allows you to track, improve and monetize service and machine monitoring at your potential customers. So on this note, I'd like to turn it over to Probodh Chiplunkar, front of mind, Chip and give him a chance to introduce himself. Chip?

Hi, everyone. Thank you, Chris, and I appreciate the opportunity for us to be able to connect on this topic of helping our OEM community monetize on the investments in digital technology and create efficiencies in their operations, especially as it relates to servicing their customers. My name is Probodh Chiplunkar. I go by Chip, that's easier. And I'm based here in Richmond, Virginia, the Founder and CEO of ITHENA. And we'll talk a little bit about our organization and its partnership with Rockwell. But I've taken the opportunity today to start our discussion with a quick question for the participants on the call today, especially as it relates to your role in the organization. It will help set some context. So if you wouldn't mind, please, on your screens, picking one of the options that are in the bullet list and provide that on the polling and we'll be able to get a quick look at whether you're from sales, marketing, service, engineering or management as it relates to this call specifically. So we'll give it another maybe few seconds for this to come through. Again, please click one of the options on your screens to be able to give the poll for your primary role in your organization. So we appreciate that. I'm also going to take one more question as it relates to this webinar, which is, what is the primary priority or one of the top priorities for you, whether it's creating an incremental revenue opportunity for your organization to monetize on the investments, is it to optimize the preferences and the way you provide service today, is it to improve and increase intimacy and experience with your customers? Or is it to look at putting digital technology to work for your organization. And you can have a varied answer there, but at least the one that maybe best fits the need that you've seen in your organization that will help us identify what stream of thought process you come at least into this webinar. So I give it a few minutes just a moment for everybody to go through it. And we'll see the results as we saw for the previous one. There were a lot of engineering and service folks on the call. And we'll just give it a moment here as well. And thank you, everybody, for providing that input. So it's a varied list but a good tie for the opportunity to increase revenue, optimize service and to transform service operations with the means of digital technology. That's the context of our conversation today. We will have opportunity for you to ask questions towards the end of the webinar. But I did want to walk through really quick, just a little bit about ITHENA, our relationship with industrial leadership with Rockwell and the ecosystem and how we help organizations monetize on the value from a digital perspective. The key takeaways today that you have to be able to ascertain would be: one, understand how service operations and the capabilities that our software provides enables you to monetize for an OEM with service to its customers. Look at how others have done operations of service streamlining, especially with a product called iSERV, an accelerator that we have built on top of Rockwell Automation's industrial software. Obviously, a little bit about what's in it for me and how do I get started, which is a key takeaway from this conversation if you are an OEM that's looking to go on this journey, what is your opportunity and how do you engage in that journey after this webinar today. I will walk through a couple of things related to our organization really quick. If you take a look at a particular view of the challenges that you face in your organization today, primarily how organizations have gone into building from the OEM side, the kinds of things that you run into related to your challenges that you face as a provider of machine and machine tool builders as well as how do you actually see your customers get into facing some of the challenges. I'm sorry, the slides are bouncing around a little bit. Apologies for that. So the challenges that OEMs see with their customers we've tried to categorize them into a few buckets. One, it's multiple systems and multiple OEMs that are present at your customers' location when you deploy your assets. There are various actions and SOPs that are required by the various OEMs present there. Systems that your customers are facing for maintenance, for quality, for running a particular equipment up and above are all varied. So there's challenges for them to be able to monitor the performance of equipment. There's enablement of safety and quality as all the various components of OEMs, equipments that are with them are deployed is a challenge for them to be able to keep up. Obviously, the ability for getting preemptive alerts would be an ideal state scenario for your customers. These are your end users. But at the least, you want to be able to see what alerts or alarms or events that are happening on my shop floor today, there might be many means through which you can get these but imagine the plethora of equipment that's running there, is there a unison that you can provide them to say, I've got a sort of a controlled panel that I can see across all my equipment on my line or my plant. And of course, like I said, this is -- the magnitude of this becomes bigger because there's multiple OEMs with multiple SOPs. So those are some of the challenges for your end customers. Now for you as an OEM, of course, you want to be able to identify how do I provide exceptional service to my customers? How do I enable opportunity to digitize interactions that I have with my customers? Can I do more with less? And of course, in that, can I look at incrementing the revenue that I have for service possibly. So obviously, not compromising on the current quality of service and only to increment the time to fix first time right or the ability for you to prevent downtime for your customers, the ability for you to create differentiation for your equipment as it rolls out its next release from a hardware perspective as to what kind of experience can you provide that's above and beyond today's service protocol that you might be using. Is there opportunities for you to be proactive with your customers? That's the challenge if you want to do so, but oftentimes, you're unable to identify what that component of equipment failure is and can I recognize that ahead of it actually happening. The ability for you to manage a single kind of a sync from a single sheet of music if I may, with the problems that are reported by your customer, what is understood by a service desk and then what is eventually resolved by a field tech, if there is something that I can have as a case or ticket management capability that we can bring to bear. And of course, I want to be able to do that with not just improving my digital presence from software or a digitalization perspective, but I also want to keep up my resourcing or retrain folks that already know my service process with these tool sets that I bring to bear. So we see that while OEMs want to increase the ability to service their customers better, possibly create a new stream, there are other challenges as to how do you do this with a varied customer install -- installed base for your customers. Well, all these challenges, both for you and for your customer leads to certain impacts in their day-to-day operations. One, there's a lot of time spent in translation of problems and issues that happen at your customer end. There is, hence, cost related to supporting and providing that service to your customer. The instruction sets provided by your teams, it depends -- it's the -- kind of your strongest link is your weakest link, if I may, which is the ability for your service team to be able to respond to something in a uniform fashion is very tough because a lot of the intelligence is in the minds of those with experience and with possibly new age individuals coming on board that may not have such experience of serving a customer, you might either share wrong information or it might take longer to get the right information to your customers which kind of brings down the serviceability aspect of your business. And of course -- and then you have to take your core engineering teams or product innovation teams to provide support to an existing customer installed base that takes away from possible new product or opportunity for you to do more innovation because engineering is possibly now involved in providing customer service. Having said that, that obviously poses a challenge for your customer, there might be larger downtime for your customer, clearly, because of the fact that machines are down. The longer it takes to resolve such an issue, it impacts your relationship with them. It impacts their production and cycle to their customers eventually. Competition is obviously looking at deploying some of these solutions. So you as an OEM possibly are missing out on an incremental opportunity that you can bring to bear either as a value-add or possibly even charge your customers for it. And we've got some models of how some of our customers who are OEMs are bringing this opportunity to bear with their end customers. So obviously, if you're an OEM that's facing a service challenge identifying how do I ensure that I can optimize the delivery of quality service to my customers on time. Can I digitize a lot of these processes and some of the mundane tasks. Can I provide knowledge base and guidance to my customers in real time? And ideally, can I be preemptive or proactive in providing information about machine performance and usage with my -- to my customer ahead of time. If those are the data points that you're thinking of or strategies of how you can deploy technology to enable such strategic initiatives this is what we're going to share in the next several minutes with you. What ITHENA has done is, we've come up with a packaged solution called iSERV, that allows you a couple of feature sets that we'll talk about. But ideally, it looks for you to optimize your service capability for your end customers. And here are some of the kind of the quotes from our customers that have deployed. I wanted to put that out there first because this is kind of the end in mind then we'll go into what the beginning looks like. But customers that have utilized our applications see an incredible value in integrated content about their equipment, about the SOPs, about parts, about service instructions, all in one place for their end customers as they provide their equipment and new service capability that they enroll or allow customers to use. Their teams from a human capital perspective are now able to focus a lot more on doing engineering or specific work that relates to product innovation rather than the same team members utilized in service at times if the field techs have to reach out for product engineering at times. And then, of course, with new product as the -- as our OEMs are rolling out new products, this becomes a de facto package that gets shipped as an incremental revenue opportunity. It's additive to the cost of the machine, which is variable by the end customer, yet the value is exponential because it really pushes your customers to be more proactive, you providing a preemptive service to your end customer. So the revenue opportunity with end customers, they don't mind paying for it to the extent that it can provide this value and that we'll see how the application does that. Let me drive a little bit into what the features of our solution are. There's 3 key buckets of which I'll talk about this on the slide here. One is the performance monitoring capability of our application. The ability for you as an OEM to be able to connect, collect and visualize the performance and usage of your machine that's deployed at your customers. Now I know there's a lot of challenges in customers opening up their network, their plant network to you as an OEM and then they end up doing that to many other OEMs around because we talked about the challenges of the disparate OEMs that are deployed in a plant. But there's been incredible journey in digital space that we've been able to identify whether sharing that information securely, making the customers comfortable on only as-needed basis and then be able to identify that it stays within you as the OEMs cloud rather than sitting in a third-party cloud or SaaS-based application. So very important, and we can have a Q&A on that, if needed. But the ability for you to connect, the ability for you to collect that information and visualize that in an easy IoT connected platform is incredibly important. Above and beyond that, as you understand, the performance and usage of the equipment at your customers, that's when you can derive some outcomes that are preemptive or predictive in nature. And more the population data, the better the outcome of prediction. So that's one key component, performance monitoring of the equipment at your customer. The other is the ability for you to provide your customer and easy-to-use service app which is a mobile app that enables them to be self-sufficient in some way, shape or form, to be able to identify an issue when it occurs and look at a resolution instead of a manual or opening the cabinet and looking at a service manual specifically sitting there. Possibly, they can go to a screen that's there on the shop floor. And to the extent you're allowed to bring the phone to use it on your phone or an app, look at self-guidance and diagnosis capability of the problem at hand without actually giving a call back to you or something that they believe that they can solve locally. OEMs then put intelligence in the app and in the SOPs that -- the standing operating procedures you provide to your customers for your machinery and you enhance that over time with the advent of the management systems that we provide as this offer. It also enables you to do remote collaboration for an end customer to be remotely talking to a service technician and be able to do augmented reality components where you can do doodling and identify what kind of capability you need in the augmented space, both mixed and virtual reality integration together with our application. Of course, it also provides a back-end portal that allows the OEM to be providing this information, both for ticket management, technician routing, ordering parts, ability for you to do onboarding of your customers, adding more information about a particular content that you need to get to your customer albeit a PDF document or a video or a specific immersive experience that you'd like to share with the customer for fixing a particular problem at their end. So these 3 components, of which 1 is performance monitoring and 2 and 3 together are the service applications that we bolt-on on top of our solution is what enables an OEM to be digitally-enabling service with their end customer. Now if you look at a quick workflow and the personas that are involved in here, you look at a customer and a machine that's running at your customer from an OEM. Initially, if the machine goes down or some cycle has hit its throughput or has hit its goal or a threshold. The initial thing that the application will do is it will identify one, what just happened. So kind of a little bit in the rearview mirror if this alarm went off. And here's the diagnosis or the prognosis that it does and then provides a diagnostic treat type of an approach to say, here is the manual or here's the how to fix this particular problem. It can automatically create a case as well or a ticket, if you may, that comes to the OEM in the background that says, look, without making a call, the customer has initiated a process with the OEM directly with the use of automated technology of monitoring. And this allows either you to take an action. But in the very first step right here, as you see on the screen, the very first thing that they're able to do is to identify what I can do in the DIY mode as a customer to solve this problem. If they're unable to solve that problem, that same individual and the same application, either automatically or you can initiate manually, create a ticket that will go back to the OEM, and then the OEM through a portal and the application interaction can provide input just like a chat or a bot type scenario. But this can be actually through individuals that are in your service teams if you're the OEM on the far right, enable your customers to take certain steps through a digital means while they're on the floor. If that doesn't solve the problem and you have an SLA with your customer, that says, well, I need 15 minutes or 5 minutes or half hour of turnaround time from you. You can actually enable a real-time service request call that will call a service engineer that is meant to be deployed for, say, for your account or for your ticket that you can look at discussing or doing remote collaboration right then and there as you're on the shop floor. So the customer on the left is interacting with the field tech engineer or service engineer that is looking at what's going on with that customer with the simple phone and/or a PDA device and they can be in the field somewhere until they identify the problem to actually come out on site and whatever the next protocol might be. But it provides the ability for your end customer on the top left on this diagram to have 3 different ways to solve the problem. One through self diagnosis, which is the first scenario at the bottom left. Second, maybe engage in a chat or some sort of an interaction with your service teams, which is on the far right of the bottom or three, I want to get a tech right now to help solve my problem, and this is top priority or severity one issue for me to be able to look at. So incredibly simplistic, but very inclusive of the various options that an end customer can look to interact with you as the OEM. Now the ability for us to look at and identify what data points are -- what's in it for me as the OEM or how do I monetize this opportunity. So we've put together a few things that enable that 2 elements of monetization. One is a penny saved is a penny earned. So can I do the same things with lesser cost or through digital means. So can I save cost on providing the same service, if not better service outcomes? And then second, can I even charge my customers additive revenue from them to us but for a very scoped out set of service on a yearly basis. So you see on the top right, some of the tangibles of return on investment or incremental monetization opportunity is that you can sell these packages of silver, gold or bronze, silver and gold to your end customers when you sell the next machine as an OEM. You include iSERV as a bundle that comes as a default package that you add on to your hardware, that's number one, direct opportunity. Second is a reduction. It's again, tangible costs, which is you reduce the number of representatives otherwise supporting your end customers and scale for your growth. One of the conversations that we've that we had with the customer just in the past week was the number of calls that come in and things that get lost in translation for the growth of this OEM's opportunity, is not going to be conducive to just add more people because that will just create more and more loss of translation. You have to have some things that can be digitized and that reaches the ability for you to minimize the number of human interactions necessarily at the point that you can manage that, give a lot of digitized content to your customer and then let the interactions with service teams, service techs, field techs, engineering managers, et cetera, come to fruition once site problems have been identified very well. And you're pushing that a little bit [ less ] for your customer because let them identify the problem rather than sometimes just either e-mailing it or just calling it over the phone. Now some of the intangibles, which help you identify in your strategy is are you looking to grow annual recurring revenue even as an OEM. It's a parallel stream of business that you might not have thought of before but you can engage with your customers in by providing this as a bundled application. Second, obviously, you can do a lot of automation while it's on doing more with digital technology, but less in terms of the human capital that you need to deploy. And the cost of the solution is -- can be, give you a return within 6 months, within a year. It depends on the model that you deploy with. It also allows you for additive revenue with spare parts that is made incredibly easy within the application. So when an equipment is identified with an alarm or a failure or is down, and it's identified by the service techs to say you need additive parts for this or we need to add more parts or you need to order parts. The application itself both suggests and takes you to the commerce website, if you as OEM have it, or at least gets the parts team the exact components that are required by the customer in this particular case. So there's, again, no loss in translation, there's ability for you to reduce the time of ordering the part for your customer and hopefully, eventually to solving the problem that might need obviously a tech to go out to make a part work with the machine. So incredible automation opportunities to the extent that the OEM can provide this. And of course, it increases the opportunity for repeatability because now you know your customer much better. You know some of the issues that they might have in the specificity that they're running their equipment in their environment. Also, but you as an OEM that it should apply to all equipment that's deployed regardless of the customer sample, although there'll always be the specifics that your customer might be doing with your equipment. That can add to the complexity. Hence, knowing how they're utilizing that helps you as an OEM provide better service to them. The way the monetization comes in, here's a classic example that we share with a lot of our customers especially the incremental revenue opportunity. So the ability for you to look at maybe a sample of your 100 customers, and this is just an indicative diagram, and the numbers are also indicative, but this is an actual example of what one of our customers is doing. They have in this pyramid that you see on the left axis have the dollar per customer that one can charge. And on the right, it's a number of customers. And with the math that we're going to work out just in a moment, the possibility of additive revenue for this particular customer, which is an OEM, which is a smaller and mid-sized OEM was shy of $1 million or [ $800,000 ] or so for 100 customer sample. And the way we kind of help progress that is for 40 of the customers that you believe are that you can sell a service worth $5,000 to them a year because you provide the knowledge base, you provide an automated ticketing capability and you possibly provide the ability for them to be available with all the knowledge base and all the content that you can provide on an ongoing basis. That alone can help them be more efficient and sufficient for a smaller, but a lot of the customer, but a smaller customer, smaller share of wallet, if I may call it that. The next 2 are kind of your mid-tier customers where maybe a set of 50 to 60 customers that you charge anywhere from 7 to 12 or some range of that amount for additive things, of course, what your bronze plan, which is maybe the bottom of the pyramid in this case, can provide. But the next 3 lines that just showed up can be a silver-type membership that you can -- or package that you can sell which enables your customers to also be able to do a real-time remote collaboration with an engineer and an on-call engineer as additive premier service anytime they want, along with the documentation, along with the case management, along with real-time digital ticketing capability. And maybe your top tier customers, if you will, can actually get the performance monitoring component as well, where there's a lot more in your relationships together, but we charge them, say, 15,000 in this particular case a year but only the 5 customers that you get all the knowledge base, all the ticketing capabilities, the real-time AR components that are required for remote collaboration as well as you look at the ability for you to have real-time performance monitoring. It depends on how you are set up and what maturity you and your customers have, this model can be rolled out. What's key is that you enable a strategy that then can take this -- this is a tactic to build that strategy, which is come up with tiers of customer service that can be provided as packages to your customers. And each of the package has a particular tier, and it has a particular offer within that you share with your customers. How we have seen customers identify themselves in this journey is that you have to have some sort of a road map that you take on in that strategy that I mentioned just now. So if you look at what a lot of our customers do today is they start small and then they build on top of things that are additive in there. So for example if you look at providing customer service that's tiered, possibly bronze, silver, gold or silver, gold, platinum, you provide a unified portal and knowledge base, you provide the ability for case or ticket management all integrated, you provide a self-guided app that enables a lot of the problem resolution for things that can be derived by the OEM when you build a machine and all the schematics, all your electrical diagrams, all the manuals, SOPs can all be digitized and provided that as part of this package. Now typically, it takes us maybe no more than 4 to 6 weeks to get this deployed, assuming there's readiness on your OEM side. And this is just indication. Real numbers will differ based on your maturity, but important to know how the progression works. The next is, obviously, you can do a connected operations or managed service type scenario with your end customer. So again, you as the OEM, providing them not only customer service app but also a personalized opportunity to give to your end customers various components of performance dashboards to be predictive, maintenance and alerts that haven't actually occurred in the system. But based on some intelligence, you have derived that and the application that we'll provide enables you to do that. And there's a variability of 8 to 10 weeks in terms of deployment, what tags we collect, what derived variables we showcase and then what value do you predict in the future? Obviously, when you want to integrate other systems of records, maybe their PLM systems, maybe there are NPI or new product innovation systems that your customers are using and they say, well, you're helping us make this construct, so help us integrate some of those systems. Can you bring a recipe in and show me what machine use what recipe and if the system marked or was something out of compliance in an SPC or some stats process control that you want to look at. So that is certainly possible with your end customers and that our application is open to enabling that. Of course, eventual goal, and if you look at the topic today, to a journey towards machine as a service, which means I may not sell an equipment worth $0.5 million or a few million dollars as an OEM, but I subsidized that over 5 years or 10 years, 8 years, whatever it might be and then sell managed service contracts to your end customers, where you're accountable and completely responsible for the performance of the machine as it's deployed in the customer. Now this is very conducive for those OEMs that might have maybe a larger share of a line of a customer in the packaging industry or in water waste, water management or other such industries, food and bev, et cetera. But the ability for you to provide machine as a service, the readiness of your ability to monitor the machine, the ability for you to provide one sheet of music for everybody to sing off of, the ability for you to provide a lot of shift left capability to your customer in the DIY fashion to let them do it yourself kind of thing in some areas. And the ability for you to be constantly connected to an ecosystem in some way, shape or form is incredibly important. And when we look at customers, they usually pick one of these 2 in some priority or some capability. And that's what I want to show on the next screen as when you want to get started, maybe a pilot with 4 to 5 machines and a handful of customers, maybe pick 1 feature out of the 2 or 3 that you've seen today, which is maybe performance monitoring or case management and the app and the portals together. Maybe that's kind of your crawl phase. If you're already doing some of that today, possibly roll out the performance management, the app and the portal to a handful of additive customers. And the engagement model reference would be really when you go and change this with value-added services on top with the managed service contract or maybe opportunity for you to provide performance monitoring, along with some competitive advantages to your customer predictive intelligence, et cetera. So from the maturity that you might have today and the strategy that you're looking to embark on this journey, there's many different ways to come at digitizing and looking at monetization opportunity for you as the OEM with your end customer. And that was the context of today's webinar. I know we've tried to put quite a few things of content in the 40 minutes or so. But we want to keep some time here in the next couple of minutes for some Q&A. As you might best deem from your perspective, so that we can answer specific questions you might have on the journey that's specific to you. I want to make sure that our team can share how to do the Q&A with you.

Thank you, Chip, and thanks for reviewing all that information. I think there's some really powerful stuff. And I really like the fact that you've taken it beyond what we would typically think of when you look at a solution in bits and pieces and you've turned it into a holistic offering, so someone can offer a service from end to end. [Operator Instructions] Chip, one of the first ones, and I know you touched on this a little bit. But if I'm an OEM and I want to start on this journey, how long should I plan? How long will it take me to get that first piece of equipment up and running and understanding the value so I can grow it.

It's an important question because as you're going on this journey or wondering, is this a pie in the sky discussion? Or is it ready to go bolt-on starting in a few weeks. And the answer there is, it depends on the maturity that you might be at today. So for example, if you have a lot of content that's already digitized and you say, I want to be able to provide all of this content in some way, shape or form, not through e-mails or not through one-off requests, but can I create some sort of a platform in which I can exchange information with my customer. And I just want ticketing and case management and knowledge base and ARVR components. We can provide that together to you in a few weeks. So whether it's within 2 to 4 weeks, just one component of that. Conversely, if you said, well, I want to be able to monitor my customers' equipment that's running at their facility, and we have worked out what the protocols ought to be of exchange of data, where will it reside, et cetera, where the data would be, assuming we can make sure that, that construct is clear, within 4 to 5 weeks you ought to be able to run an application that is powered through a mobile device -- on a mobile device, that's available on a mobile device as well as available in the web that connects your asset and provides the performance on that asset maybe under 6 weeks or so. So these aren't long-term 12, 15 months worth of projects. These are accelerated solutions that we have built that we will come with a little bit of a prescription of how that dashboard are to look like, how the app are to look like, and we will bring that to you in that context. So Chris, hopefully, that gives some context to the question.

Fantastic and to add on to that from someone is, can you take a little deeper and help us understand a little more detail on what your performance management capability looks like and offers.

Yes. So I think it's built on -- first, it's powered by the leading platform in the industrial IoT space, which is PTC's ThingWorx platform, number one. It's integrated with Rockwell's Solution and scalable components of integration of data. And then we've built the templates for monitoring the performance of various tags as well as probably derived KPIs from that tag or those tags as well as the ability for you to possibly have control and set points capability if you're doing, say, stats processing, et cetera. The ability for end users to -- or OEMs to be able even to set some of those for the best performance of the machine. So the performance monitoring piece is not only a view out into what is possible from the performance and usage of the machine, but also possibly best practices and workflow that you as the OEM can help your customer set in some of the usage of the equipment that you're providing. Secondly, it also provides the ability for you to do comparatives between various tags and be able to identify how is a particular tag performing on a machine or a particular temperature and the correlation of that with the RPM of the equipment. So a lot of times, our customers do this type of analysis for trending and identify what happened at this point in the life cycle of a temperature and how was the RPM at that point. And was the temperature high because of high RPMs, which is very common to understand. But -- or was it some other -- what was the torque or what was the factors of humidity or if it's deployed asset in the field, what were some of the other components. So correlation analysis is an incredible, powerful capability of our platform along with some of the examples I've mentioned.

Awesome. So another question is, how does ITHENA and Rockwell integrate. And they're asking the technical interface and kind of license support interface between the ITHENA offering and the Rockwell based technology, I would assume.

Okay. That's a fair and important question. First off, our products are modular, meaning they can be decoupled from the Rockwell offer in the sense that you can just buy the platform from Rockwell first and we can tag our solution on top, and then you can manage both independently, number one. A lot of the times, our customers really don't have necessarily the IT staff or getting to know a software is not what the OEM is looking for. They're looking for the workflow that will help me service my customer better. So in that case, they come to ITHENA and say -- or the distributor that's involved possibly, it depends on how you engage in the sale, to them and say, I need a one-stop shop that can take support for me or support me in my journey in helping configure, helping set up and then help me deploy the solution to my end customer. So in that case, the relationship between ITHENA and Rockwell is really managed by the channel of ITHENA, but Rockwell is tied at the hip with us because we are an integrated partner in their ecosystem. And of course, the distributor, if you've got an existing license agreement or a service agreement with the distributor, sometimes we come in with them to be able to provide the service as part of their existing channel. So -- while the technologies can be decoupled and run independently, we obviously provide this as a solution for the best fit nature of how the OEM may want to look at this.