Royal Gold, Inc. (RGLD) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and good morning, everyone. Welcome to today's virtual non-deal roadshow Seattle and surrounding areas. -- for joining us today for the presentation of Royal Gold trading on the NASDAQ under the ticker symbol RGLD relations and business development. The presentation will last approximately 25 minutes and will be followed by a Q&A session for which you can participate by using the chat box in the top right-hand corner of your screen. With that being said, I will now hand over over to Alistair.

Well, thank you, Noelle, and thanks, as always, for the opportunity to present today. We have a lot of -- finally for me to give you an update or an introduction for those who don't know the story. So to start, I will be making forward-looking statements during this presentation. There are risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from these statements. All of these risks 6 months other are discussed in our most recent form Gold in particular. Second is our high-margin business and a commitment to a long-standing commitment to returning capital. -- and then finally, I'll talk about some of the embedded optionality within the portfolio and the fact that we don't have to pay for any growth that comes from inside the portfolio as a result of mine extensions or expansions. So those are the main sections in the portfolio, but I would like to just make a couple of comments about 2025 and some of the activity that I referenced in my very first comment. It has been a very busy time for us. In 2025, we think, was a transformational year for Royal Gold. We acquired 2 companies, Sandstorm and Horizon and a corporate transaction that closed in October last year. And with those transactions without transact we had a significant growth in remarks always -- we also did extra Marla, as always, the general asset transactions last set today as we've had a lot of stream at Kansanshi, which is operated by first give you an update or it's median cash flow, so you don't know if it's a long life. -- high-quality asset run start -- to start, I will be making or with the prior insurance going to make forward-looking statements earns for the other merger of Terna results to reduce et Second is our high-margin business. And we didn't just see our high margin business and being a long standing committee developments within the portfolio last year. We actually saw some optionality that surfaced from within the portfolio. Most importantly, we think the not Milligan, we saw that's our largest asset buyer and 2 companies at a 2045. And the operator is talking about a potential extension of that even beyond 2045. Now we have a couple of decades of reserve life of Mount Milligan, our largest asset. The other one that's worth calling out is Fourmile. This is probably one of the most exciting gold discoveries over the past several decades. -- in the hands of Barrick and Newmont. And this was something that Barrick started putting some numbers around last year, and it's going to be a phenomenal asset. We have 100% coverage of formal with the royalty that we have and not a global mines complex that Cortez complex. And we also had, since closing all of these transactions, we've had some very strong natural results. And we've had 2 clean quarters this year any of the noise associated with transactions. First quarter of this year, we had record revenue, cash flow and earnings, and we followed that with the second quarter with a record cash flow. So it's been a very strong start to the year from this larger portfolio. We've paid down through the end of June 30, we paid down $900 million of debt after we closed the sandstone Horizon transaction in October last year and we repurchased -- we canceled $30 million of shares. We've increased our portfolio reserve life by about 25% to 18 years. That's not including resources, and we raised 25th consecutive year. So we've added a lot to the portfolio. We added scale, diversified issue growth, but we have not changed our strategy. And I want you to keep that in mind when I get to the end of the presentation when I start talking about valuation. Now the final point I'd like to make just about what we did in 2025 was I just want to focus on Sandstone and Horizon for a moment. We've seen a lot of very positive developments in a very short period of time from these transactions. As I noted, we've had significant revenue and cash flow as a combined entity. A lot of that came from these transactions. But we've also simplified a lot of the structures that were in Sandstorm Horizon that a lot of investors didn't like. The very first thing we did upon closing as we collapsed the Horizon Sandstorm arrangements to companies with intercompany arrangements that were complicated for the market to understand those are gone. We've divested over $200 million of noncore equity positions, and we use that for debt repayment balance sheet. We've restructured some very complex arrangements with additional assets in the portfolio were leave Canyon, Bear Creek. And we restructured half of our investments direct equity investment in the Manmade development project. We would like to get down to a 0% direct ownership of Popmoney, but right now, we're at 15%, which is a lot better than where we were -- we always recognize that was going to be an issue for the market to give us credit for, but we're making very good progress on that one. We've seen some extremely good developments as well from within the portfolio, we've got, the largest development project in the portfolio. We've seen Glencore, the operator there is applied for the taxability, the Rig application was made. In August just after we announced the transaction, and they've more recently announced that they've actually started reminding the Alumbera pit about 6 months ahead of schedule, very positive development there. The Platt Reef, 5 name Mines continues with the development -- we've now received our first stream revenue or delivery from that asset. And that asset continues to ramp up towards the end of this year and into next. Hot Maden, the project itself with a new operator about 25% complete. And we're seeing good exploration results, if not fantastic exploration results at Fruta del Norte in Ecuador. It's just really attractive, interesting developments that should see that asset continue for decades. And we've also seen some very strong operating performance, Antamina, Casaro Chapada. All of those assets came from Sasorizon. So we're very pleased with the way this transaction has been unfolding in a very short period of time. And it kind of folds into this next slide, just on our long-term outlook. We did provide for the first time in March this year, we provided a 5-year outlook of what we expect to see with a very nice growth runway in 2026, we're about 30% higher in terms of gold equivalent ounces than where we were in 2025. And as we go 5 years into the future, take the midpoint of the guidance, we're about 17% growth rate from here to there. And we do see additional growth beyond that 5-year window with assets like Mara and Fourmile coming into production early in the next decade. The thing that you should really note though, about this if you look at the slide, you can see a bunch of assets are called out specifically. We've got a very diversified growth. We're not dependent on one large asset to get us there in terms of growth. So that's a risk mitigation that's inherent in our growth profile. So we're at least with that. So with those introductory comments made, I'll just give you a bit more detail on the key attributes of Royal Gold. So we are a gold-focused company, and we've got over 40 years of experience in our sector doing what we do. We started the company then in 1980s. We've been on the NASDAQ. This is our 45th year this year being on the NASDAQ Exchange. Our strategy has been consistent over that entire time period. And it's really about getting gold-focused revenue on good assets in good jurisdictions run by good operators. And our revenue has grown consistently over that time period and metal mix hasn't really changed. So we aim to provide our shareholders gold exposure in a conservatively managed vehicle. And our historic performance, as you can see from a share price perspective on this slide shows you why we think we're a good alternative for those who are looking for conservative exposure to gold, which is a pretty volatile commodity. If you look at our leverage to the gold price is about 1.6x. So we have strong leverage. The beta is strong. And you can look at our share price performance over time as well. This graph goes back to 2006, which is when the GDX index including all of our peers was formed. Our share price has actually outperformed the gold price, the GDX index itself and the S&P 500 over this time. So goes to the point that we do believe that we are a good long-term investments, if you want exposure to a pretty volatile commodity. So we are a high-margin business and dividend growth is a very important consideration for us. And the business model is unique. It is high margin and it's very scalable. And over the last 12 months or trailing 12 months to the end of June, you can see that our EBITDA margin was 83%, software-like margins. And our cash G&A was about 3% of our revenue. So it doesn't cost very much to run this business. Our operating expenses are very low compared to our revenue. And our costs because they're low and they're fixed, we don't see cost inflation as being something that really risks our margins. And our business model is very efficient. We have a pretty small head count for the size of the company. We are. We have 39 employees today. Our market cap is around $21 billion. So on a per employee basis, we compare well to any company in any sector. And return of capital is a core strategic objective, and it's something that makes us unique amongst all other gold investments. We paid a growing and sustainable dividend since 2000. We've increased the dividend every year since 2001, despite volatility in the gold price. And with 25 years of consecutive dividend increases we've actually paid out well over $1 billion to our shareholders in the form of dividends. We're the only company on the GDX index that's paid an increasing dividend since that index was formed in 2026 and we're the only precious metals company in the S&P High-Yield Dividend Aristocrats Index. That separates us from all of our peers in the precious metals sector. I'm going to talk about our portfolio in this next section. We have a global portfolio and it's weighted towards lower risk and mining-friendly jurisdictions and it spans the various stages of mining project development. We have over 360 assets in the portfolio today about 80 produced revenue, about 30% are in development, which means that there's a clear path to first revenue. And then we have over 250 that are at earlier stages of exploration or evaluation. An organic growth comes to us from development and exploration stage assets to advance through that pipeline to production. So we have a lot of that in our portfolio. And having a diversified portfolio reduces single asset and counterparty risks. And our commodity focus is gold, but we do have diversification towards meaningful -- we have some meaningful copper and silver in the portfolio, but we do have the largest gold revenue percentage of all of our large cap peers in our sector. And we're geographically diverse, but we do have a North American focus in terms of where our revenue comes from. If you look at our portfolio on a net asset value basis, we have the most diversified asset portfolio in the royalty and streaming sector and 9 of our top 10 assets are actually producing revenue today. And we have expansion and extension projects underway at 5 of those. So that gives you a sense of some of the organic growth potential that could be coming through the portfolio. Our operators are best-in-class. We have large, well-capitalized and experienced operators that run our assets. We've recently added First Quantum encore and Rio Tinto. We have Newmont Barrick, lots of very well-known companies who operate the assets where we have interest. So we have best-in-class operators is how we like to think about it. If you step back and you think about portfolio diversification, it's really important because it reduces our exposure to single asset, operator and jurisdictional risk. And that's really key for generalist investors, we want exposure to the metal. They want exposure to assets and the optionality of those assets, but they don't want to have to spend a lot of time reviewing the assets in the portfolio. With us, it's a very diversified portfolio. Something happens at an asset, it shouldn't affect materially because we have so much diversification within the portfolio. That's an important factor when you think about our peers and how we stack up against them in the sector. Now we do have limited operating risk in our business model. And our model provides gold exposure without -- or with reduced risk from assets. And you can invest in gold in many different ways, the slide that tends to show the different categories of investments you can make. We provide exposure to gold and optionality and a dividend while reducing downside risk by holding a diversified portfolio that doesn't have direct exposure to operating capital costs. You can be more conservative. And if you want to invest in gold, you can buy physical gold, but that won't give you any upside. You announced today, it's always going to be announced. It won't pay you a dividend. In fact, it is going to cost you something to hold it or store it. You can be more aggressive and you can buy equity in mining companies or exploration companies. But with those, you're also getting exposure to operating and cost risks and inflation exposure as well, and that simply can really impact the margins. There's a perception among some that our business model doesn't provide leverage to go. But I think if you look at our financial results, we actually provide excellent leverage to the commodities. Now we have margins that actually expand with the gold price. And if you look at the average operator, they can't say the same. Our costs are low, they're fixed. So our margins actually do expand as the gold price goes up, whereas operators are often -- their costs are often subject to inflation pressure. So their margins may not expand as quickly. And you can see that more clearly on this next slide, when you look at the cost structure of us compared to the average operator. And producers are exposed to inflation and input costs. So labor, energy, consumables and sites. Those often go up when commodity prices increase. If you look at our G&A costs, they're pretty steady. Some things like salaries, services and office rents. They're not subject to short-term increases. Anything that impacts costs impacts margin? And we haven't seen it yet. I think we will see it in the next quarter or 2, start to see inflation and energy costs impacting operator margins as the impacts of the Iran war filter through into the mining sector. Now I'll talk about where we sit inside our sector and our -- what we think is a goldilocks position, we remain we're large enough to compete, but we're also small enough to show growth. Our sector is built on relatively small transactions. If you look at the history of transactions in our sector, most are smaller than about $300 million. The average transaction size over $100 million. But we sit in a very interesting position. We're large enough to compete for the largest transactions. We have significant cash flow and access to low-cost capital, and that's evidenced by the transaction we did last year with $1 billion streaming transaction is one of the largest in our sector. But we're also small enough to show growth. We can do a small transaction that actually shows up in our financials. So something like we're in a $200 million transaction last year. when that line starts producing, we should see the impact of that production in our financials. We're not aiming to be the biggest in our sector, but we do want to be the best -- in this Goldilocks position, we think gives us a really good platform to continue to execute our strategy and growth and goals. Now I want to talk a little bit about embedded growth and optionality but it's probably worth spending a moment or 2 on capital allocation first because our growth really does depend on successful capital allocation. Our strategy remains consistent and simple when it comes to capital allocation. First, we want to reinvest in the business, using nondilutive financing. Second, we want to maintain a strong balance sheet and access liquidity. And third, we want to continue returning capital to shareholders. We have a framework for capital allocation, but it's designed to be flexible because market conditions change constantly. -- our framework guides us and really what we're trying to do is make sure that we -- when we target growth, we target double-digit returns on new investments, and we show per share growth to our shareholders. We want to repay debt quickly because that allows us to maintain liquidity to be able to continue funding new transactions. And thirdly, we want to continue growing our dividend. A lot of our shareholders that we see that as a very firm obligation. We want to continue doing that. Now we added 2 new tools to our toolbox, if you will, in the second quarter of this year to help us in capital allocation. The first is we added a $600 million uncommitted or feature to our our revolving credit facility that provides us additional liquidity should we need it if we see large transactions. Secondly, our Board authorized a $500 million share buyback. And this was done because -- we occasionally see opportunities where we trade at a relatively low value. And if there's a disconnect in the value, it's nice to have the flexibility of being able to buy back some shares when that value presents itself. So how have we done over the past 25 years. This slide shows a nice snapshot of the results of capital allocation. Since 2010, you can see we've had revenue and cash flow growth significant. But there are 3 aspects of this growth that I want to touch on and highlight. The first is our G&A has not grown anywhere near revenue and operating cash flow. And we don't need to add people when we add assets to our portfolio. It's a very scalable business. That's the first one. Second is our revenue growth isn't dependent on metals prices. We've had a great tailwind from a rising gold price, but we've also added volume to our portfolio over that period. And we've seen organic growth come from within the portfolio. So it's a bit of a multiplier there. And then thirdly, we've mostly financed our growth internally without a significant increase in our share count. We issued 19 million shares last year to complete the Sandstorm transaction. And that was the first time we had issued equity since 2012. And even with those shares, the new shares added to our share count, we still have the lowest share count in the GDX index and we've been around since the beginning of the in 2006. We want to avoid shareholder dilution. And if we can provide per share growth to our shareholders, we think we're doing the right thing. Now when we think about growth and asset investments, we aim for double-digit returns, but we have to be patient. Our business is based on being patient and making investments for the long term. Exploration and production upside is very important when we look at new investment opportunities. And it does take time for those benefits to show up in the assets where we invest. We do extensive due diligence of new opportunities, we take a bottoms-up technical -- fundamentally driven approach to asset reviews. Often, sell-side analysts who publish reports or comments after we announce a transaction, they don't have the benefit of that work. They don't have the benefit of 2 or 3 months in a data room, analyzing things carefully. So they just don't have the ability to judge returns the same way that we do. Street returns when we asset transaction, they're often very low. And it may take -- in some cases, maintain years for the upside to become clear. We won't invest in an asset if we don't think there's an upside potential. The Street may not have the benefit of that understanding. And this slide really does illustrate that point. As time has passed, expected returns have increased with production expansions like mine life extensions and so on. And that's driven by resource and reserve growth without further investment by Royal Gold. But it does take time for that to become clear in the marketplace. This next slide shows the same story in a slightly different way. And as time passes, we recover the investment that we make on day 1. And any value that's added to the assets by the operators also increases the future value of our entrances, which is obviously estimated by the -- represented by the Street estimates of the value of those interests from this point forward. So we are always aiming for much higher returns than when we get judged that on day of the transaction announcement. And there's a multiplier effect that's important when you think about the assets we'll reinvest. And any extension to mine life provides a double benefit to us. First of all, it's more production, which is more revenue. And then secondly, an extension to mine life provides longer exposure volatile commodity. There can be a lot of value in having extended exposure to the gold price. Operators are always looking to extend asset lives and capture incremental revenue around the sum capital they've spent to put assets into production. And in 2025, we saw over 2 million meters of drilling across the portfolio. That's phenomenal. And we benefit from this because we don't have to fund any capital or invest any further to get exposure to any of the -- so it's growth that we don't have to pay for. And the optionality is the most important feature of our business model. Now as we take that and apply it to specific examples, I'll show you on this slide, this is our development pipeline as we see it today. There are key catalysts in our portfolio from new assets that should provide organic growth potential. And we see organic growth -- the pipeline is very robust with catalysts extending into the next decade. And we've got Back River, just started commercial production at the end of last year is ramping up have a royalty structure that actually increases over time. That is going to be something that provides -- we expect some good growth to our portfolio. Flat restarted milling ore in the fourth quarter of last year. We received our first delivery -- stream delivery in early August this year. Robertson is on tap to be -- to start production in 2027. That's the Cortez complex in Nevada, then we've got Hot Maden, great Bear or ins coming in later this decade. And beyond that, we have in the 2030s. So we have a very exciting development pipeline ahead of us. And this doesn't include assets that are producing revenue today. So things like the Mount Milligan mine life extension the comical expansion, those are not included in this slide, but they should provide additional benefits to us as well. And we think this is one of the best organic growth pipelines in the industry. And as I said at the outset, is diversified. It's not relying on one asset to get us there. Now I'm going to close off with a couple of comments on valuation. And we think our portfolio growth and duration are still not being valued by the market today. Our business is performing extremely well. We've got very strong cash flow. We've got good organic growth from within the portfolio. We're executing on our priorities. But if you take a snapshot of where we are relative multiple wise compared to our peers, we're actually trading at a fairly large NAV discount to our large-cap peers. And we're actually lagging our small cap peers and our large cap when it comes to the cash flow multiple. And you can see over the long term, where we have traded and where we're trading today, and there's been a bit of a valuation disconnect. And I think it's because the market has not yet absorbed all of the activity that we did in 2025. We add a lot of scale and growth to the portfolio and just hasn't been absorbed yet. And in fact, I think the market may be expecting there's been some -- there's still some integration risk with those transactions and has not yet turned to the financial results we've put out. And in the first 2 quarters of this year, $770 million of adjusted EBITDA, and that's through to June 30. We repaid $900 million of debt since mid-October, and we've seen some pretty important advances on projects in the portfolio. So our focus today is really to make sure the market understands how well we're executing and how well our business is performing so we can address this valuation disconnect. So that is the end of my formal presentation. I guess I'll just wrap it up by making a couple of closing comments. We do believe we've strengthened oil materially positioned it well for a strong gold price environment. We've added scale, diversification, growth of the portfolio. We have a strong balance sheet today. We have significant cash flow, so we've got lots of opportunity to continue growing. And we think our patient approach and commitment to a long-term strategy that has worked should be rewarded by the market and hopefully that sooner rather than later. So Noelle with that, I'll turn it back to you for the Q&A session.

[Operator Instructions] Your first question is as the change in ownership structure creating any opportunities to accelerate development or reduce execution risk at Hotmadden?

I think it's certainly helpful that we have a local operator now who in charge of developments. Lidya is very well experienced in the mining sector in Turkey. They're part of a conglomerate that has a number of different arms that how services that provide services like EPCM and construction services. So there is an ecosystem within Lidia that I think is very positive. And we think the transfer of ownership from SSR, which is a North American-based company, to Lydia, a local Turkish company, it should speed things up. Now Lidya's they've made comments that they're going to continue executing the plan that was in place before. They are doing a schedule and execution plan review at the same time. They're always looking to reduce costs and do things more efficiently. And I think it's probably on balance, it's probably a good thing that we have a local operator now. deal to advance the project and make it more efficient. It's been a very good transition from our perspective. They made a few minor changes to the project we think our technical people think are certainly well thought out, and we'll make the project better over the long run. So we're very happy. They are continuing to execute the project, and it is certainly moving forward quite nicely. So we think it's better for the project that the ownership that transfer, the operatorship transfer to Lidia.

Thank you for clarifying that, Alastair. Your next question -- how much of your expected growth over the next 2 years is tied to higher throughput at established operations versus new mines coming online?

It's going to be a mix of those 2. But I think over the next couple of years, you'll likely see more upside from expansions within the portfolio. So as I said, Back River it is technically a new line, but it's hard to started producing. Same as Platreef. It's a new mine, but it's already started production. You'll see those ramp up over time. Greensill is another example. That's another asset that's just recently started producing, and it's ramping up over time. So I think in the near term, what you'll see is more growth from those expansions of existing assets. And then on the slide that I referenced, you do see some new mines coming in 2027, Robertson and then you move down the time line, you can see the other ones that are there as well. But in the near term, I think most of the growth is going to be coming from expansions at existing assets. And really, that is a lot of ramp-up of newer assets in the portfolio.

I appreciate you clarifying that. Next, gold have if the scheduled capital cost or funding assumptions change materially under the new operatorship?

Well, we are a -- we have a direct equity interest 15% in the project. So cost overruns if there are any. I think the fact that we have is 15% is a materially reduced number compared to where we were when we acquired Sandstorm. So that provides some mitigation. It's not a -- it's not a high capital intensity project. It's around $900 million of funding that's required. And so 15% of that, it's a relatively small number. I said in the answer to the very first question, with Lidya as a local operator coming in, they do have other parts of their sister companies that have expertise that are going to be tapping in to develop a project. I think we're in a much better position from the operator's perspective in terms of mitigating some of the risks that you offer to see with capital projects. When you have a local company operating the project probably be done more efficiently than what a North American company would be able to do -- they'll be able to things like that. have an advance continued exposure to the project, we think, has been mitigated just by virtue of the fact that we have a lower percentage exposure to it and a local operator now.

I think you have commented on that. Next, how do you assess the trade-off between acquiring producing assets today versus earlier stage development assets with greater long-term growth potential.

Well, we evaluate projects on many different -- but I think the -- what we're always looking for is the potential for projects to grow. And we're looking for risk mitigation as well. So it's always you can find a cash flowing asset like at Kansanshi, for example, that we love doing those kinds of transactions because you put your money in, and then you start on the day of closing, we start receiving deliveries. So that's cash flow. We always like those. But there's often a lot of interesting potential in growth assets. And Comicon is a great example of that. We invested in that in 2019, well before it's producing and reinvested during the capital build of that project, and it was about 2 to 3 years of investments before we started seeing first revenue. But it's done extremely well for us. So there are pros and cons to both. We like the near-term cash flow producing assets, but we like the growth potential of growth assets or development assets. But the one thing that we like and we want to make sure that we have exposure to in all scenarios is long term potential. So whether it's producing today or it's in development, if we want that potential to be growing over time. So there are different kinds of investments. We don't target one over the other. They have their own attributes. We'd you like to pose.

Next question is Canada is currently speaking to reducing red tape and time lines for project development. What level of optimism does Royal Gold have that there will be -- there will actually be tangible advancements for Canada to be an easier investment.

Well, I think it's a bit of a trend in other places as well. You're seeing it in the U.S., not only in Canada, but we see it as a very positive development. We have A couple of the big development projects we have in our portfolio are in Canada, and they've been identified by governments as being a high priority projects. So you've got RightCris in British Columbia, it's own operated by Newmont. The government of Canada has put CAD 500 million into that project. And it's been with the government of is a high-priority project that's great news to see that project moving forward and hopefully with comments of Ontario has made a big effort to try and streamline permitting and they've got this new permitting and making it easier for operators to go through the process and faster. And so that has been something that it was just put in place several months ago. I think if you talk to Kinross, I would say it's certainly been helpful the messaging has been certainly helpful whether they've actually seen any results yet beyond the announcement and the push by the government to actually make that happen. I don't know -- I can't comment on that. I think it's made things simpler to plan, but are you seeing time lines come, I think it's a little bit early to say that. But certainly, the the messaging from governments, all levels of government has been very positive and should impact us positively as well because it just means that shorter time lines of production if they're able to simplify things.

Thank you for commenting on that. Next were comments, Royal Gold has a very high-quality portfolio today, looking 5 to 10 years out, what do you believe is the biggest risk to Royal Gold's ability to continue compounding per share value at attractive rates, assess availability, competition for deals, commodity prices or something else.

I mean our portfolio -- yes, thanks for the company. We believe as well, we have a very high-quality portfolio. We've got a lot of growth within the portfolio. And so if we, for whatever reason, decided that our investment criteria are going to change or we don't want to invest anymore. We've got lots of growth to be able to continue without us making additional acquisitions. So we think we're in a very good spot. I think probably the biggest risk is going to be things that we can't control. So something like commodity prices. We can't control commodity prices. If there is a correction in precious metals pricing or base metals pricing as well because many of the assets where we invest are base metals assets. If there's a big contraction in prices, I think you would probably -- that would be the biggest risk us and the pipeline. Now that said, I think it's unlikely based on what we see today in the marketplace that you're going to see any material changes to the downside in metals prices, I think Gold is recently decoupled from long-term interest rates. And it's actually now got a positive correlation to rising long-term bond yields. So that is an indicator, and you've got central banks around the world replacing U.S. dollar assets with gold and their reserves. That's a longer-term tailwind that I think is going to be helpful to go. So I think it's unlikely that you'll see a big collapse in the price of gold. -- over the longer term. And then base metals, I think everybody is aware, copper when I say base metals is mostly copper assets. I think copper, we're probably looking at getting into a supply deficit over the next several years because grades of mines are lowering. They're falling as mines get more mature. It takes a long time to get new copper projects into production. And so you've got this additional demand from electrification and data centers and all these other -- the changes to the way that businesses will run electricity, electrification that cars and all of these other things are going to cause these demand increases. At the same time, you'll probably see supply not growing as fast as that demand. So I don't think there's any reason why the copper price over the long term is going to be materially lower than where it is today. So we don't think that is -- it is a risk. -- but we just don't think that's something that we see coming up in the next -- certainly the next several years.

Thank you for providing some clarity. Your next question, Alastair is -- have your reserve wave evolved over the years with the acquisitions you've made.