Sagicor Financial Company Ltd. (SFC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I am Mahmood Khimji, Chairman of the Board of Sagicor Financial Company Limited. It gives me great pleasure to welcome you to the company's 2025 Annual Meeting of Shareholders. As you know, we are using a hybrid format, and the meeting is, therefore, being conducted in-person and via live webcast. I now invite the Corporate Secretary, Althea Hazzard, to present the agenda, procedures and guidelines for today's meeting, having regard to the nature of the meeting.

Good afternoon, everyone. I'm going to say I'm mouthful. Please place your phones on silent, if you've not already done so. Our agenda for this Annual Meeting of Shareholders will begin with the Chairman calling the meeting to order and addressing various preliminary matters. This will be followed by a review of the financial results by our President and CEO, Andre Mousseau. The items of the business to be voted on will then be moved, each to be followed by a formal discussion if any, on that applicable item. Voting will then close, and there will be a general shareholder question-and-answer session. Following the question-and-answer session, the Chair will report the voting results. If you're a registered shareholder or a proxy holder of record and you're attending the meeting virtually, you are now able to submit comments or questions for the formal matters of the meeting after the general question-and-answer session. You can do so via the messaging platform on your screen, and the electronic ballot for voting is also now available for you on your screen. You're encouraged to submit any comments or questions in advance of the question-and-answer session. If you are a registered shareholder, you're attending virtually and you've not provided voting instructions and wish to vote your shares, you may do so at any time during the formal business of the meeting using the electronic ballot on your screen. Proxy holders can also do the same thing. The polls will remain open until just before the conclusion of the formal business of the meeting. If you've voted your shares prior to the start of the meeting, your vote has been received by the company's scrutineers, and there is no need to vote those shares during the meeting unless you wish to revoke or change your vote. Now if you are physically present here at the Hilton Barbados Resort as a registered shareholder or properly attendant proxy holder, you should have received a ballot on entering the meeting. The chair will invite you to vote on the individual items at the appropriate time, but you may use this ballot at any time while the polls remain open. The polls will close just before the conclusion of the formal business of the meeting. Please remain seated and your ballot will be collected from you. If you have voted your shares prior to the start of the meeting, your vote has been received by the company's scrutineers, and there is no need to vote those shares during the meeting unless you wish to revote or change your vote. For the benefit of all shareholders, shortly following the meeting, we will post the final voting results on the Investor page of the company's website. The results will also be filed on the Sagicor's profile on SEDAR+ at www.sedarplus.ca. In relation to shareholder questions, during the formal business portion of the meeting, we will respond to appropriate questions relating to the items of business being considered at today's meeting that are received via the online messaging platform on the applicable items of business. If you're physically present here with us, you'll be invited to ask questions on the respective items of business at the appropriate time. Questions that are not related to the items of business will be addressed in the general question-and-answer session following the formal portion of the meeting. As a matter of courtesy, we ask that you please limit yourself to two brief questions or remarks, so that everyone who wishes to participate in the meeting will have a chance to do so. If there is not sufficient time to address any appropriate questions at the meeting, we will post them and the company's responses on our website shortly following the meeting. You should note that where comments or questions are submitted online, the legal name of the submitting shareholder or properly attendant proxy holder may be read aloud before being addressed. Before asking a question on the floor of this meeting, please state your name and the name of the shareholder you represent if you are a proxy or corporate representative. Comments that may not be considered appropriate, and therefore may not be addressed include comments or questions which are irrelevant to the business of the company or the business of the annual meeting, related to nonpublic information of the company, related to personal grievances, derogatory references to individuals or that are otherwise in bad case, repetitive or out of order or not otherwise suitable for the conduct of the annual meeting as determined by the Chair or Corporate Secretary in their sole discretion and according to their reasonable judgment. If we encounter any technical difficulties with the webcast during the course of the meeting, please remain logged on, and we will have the matter addressed as soon as practicable. Finally, I would like to remind everyone that there maybe forward-looking statements made and non-IFRS measures discussed during today's meeting. These forward-looking statements are, unless otherwise noted, given as of today's date and involve risks and uncertainties discussed in our filings with our securities regulators. A number of factors and assumptions were applied in the formulation of such statements, and actual results could differ. In our management's discussion and analysis for the year ended December 31, 2024 -- sorry, Non-IFRS measures are discussed in our management's discussion and analysis for the year ended December 31, 2024. For additional information with respect to forward-looking statements, factors and assumptions and non-IFRS measures, we direct you to Sagicor's public filings. I now turn the proceedings over to the Chair of the Meeting, Mahmood Khimji.

Thank you, Althea, for outlining today's agenda, procedures and guidelines. The meeting will now come to order. I would like to introduce the members of the Board of Directors of the company and executives who are with us today. From the far left, Mr. Peter Clarke, Director; Ms. Cathleen McLaughlin, Director; Mr. Stephen Facey, Director; the most honorable Dodridge Miller, Director; Mr. Dennis Harris, Director; Ms. Kathryn Jenkins, Group Chief Financial Officer; Mr. Andre Mousseau, Director, President and Chief Executive Officer. On my immediate right, Ms. Althea Hazzard, Corporate Secretary; Dr. Archibald Campbell, Director; Sir. Hilary Beckles, Director; Mr. Monish Dutt, Director; Ms. Aviva Shneider, Director; Mr. Alan Ryder, Director; my fellow director, who is also joining us virtually today is Mr. Keith Duncan. We will now turn to the formal business of the meeting, after which there will be time for general shareholder questions. Althea Hazzard, the Corporate Secretary of the company will serve as secretary and record the proceedings of the meeting. Christopher de Lima and Frank Kailik from the TSX Trust Company will act as scrutineers. Voting at today's meeting will be by ballot as this best facilitates a hybrid meeting format. We will now proceed with the meeting. This year, Sagicor used notice and access to deliver its annual financial statements and meeting materials. And as a result, the notice of meeting and the management information circular are accessible on Sagicor's website and under Sagicor's profile on SEDAR+. They are also available in the documents tab on the left-hand side of your screen if you're attending virtually. The form of proxy or voting instruction form was mailed to all shareholders of record as of the close of the business on March 24, 2025. We have received an affidavit from the TSX Trust Company as to the proper sending of the notice of this meeting and the form of proxy to shareholders. I've received the preliminary scrutineer report on attendance, and it indicates that we have a sufficient number of shareholders present or represented by proxy at today's meeting that hold a sufficient number of shares to constitute a quorum. As a quorum is present and proper notice of the meeting has been given, this meeting is now duly and properly constituted for the transaction of business which may properly come before the meeting. I direct that the scrutineer's report be incorporated into the minutes of this meeting. I will now turn to Andre Mousseau, President and Chief Executive Officer, who will provide a review of the financial results.

Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon to fellow shareholders, to my fellow directors, fellow, current and past Sagicor team members, and to the auditors, which I think comprises the audience today. Thank you very much, especially to those of you who have taken the time out of your days to join us here in person for this annual event. As the Chairman mentioned, I will take the time to do a brief review of the financial results of 2024. You will have an opportunity to ask questions of our lengthy financial statements and management's discussion and analysis. And for that, we have our Chief Financial Officer. And I also am going to take the opportunity just to take a few minutes to talk about one of the directions of our strategic initiatives that we have not emphasized in prior meetings, and that being putting our shareholders first. So I will start with the highlights of what were -- what was another very strong year for 2024. We delivered nearly USD 100 million, and all of these otherwise -- unless otherwise denoted are in U.S. dollars. $97.5 million of net income to shareholders, which was an extraordinary result dwarfed only by the results of 2023, which themselves had some extraordinary items that we had brought -- that we had to brought into our income statement. Importantly, the core earnings to our shareholders were $91 million, and this is a metric that you would have seen over the past years permeate our financial statements. Core earnings is a concept that takes out or removes onetime items and elements of market volatility to get to the core underlying strength of the insurance company. And we'll be able to observe that grow over time and to have core net earnings, core net income of over $90 million is a significant accomplishment relative to where the company was a few years ago. We continue to build for the future. You see in the top middle there a metric called new business CSM. This is contractual service margin, which is a measure of the future profitability of the new business that we put on our books through the efforts of our sales team. And the important part of this metric is that the new business contractual service margin significantly exceeded our actual net income in the year. And that tells you that not only are we running a tight ship for today's profitability, but we're driving growth for years to come. We've seen increases in our book value per share. We've seen increases in the shareholders' equity plus that contractual new business on the books, which are over CAD 21 a share, just indicating the significant value that's embedded in the company in which we are all shareholders. And we remain very, very well capitalized. We have a couple of metrics here. The LICAT, which is a measure of financial health, significantly in excess of 100%. And a financial leverage ratio, which is a measure of how much debt we have relative to equity and deployable capital, which is significantly lower than it had been in previous years, again, indicating the strength of the company. So we will have the opportunity to talk more about the financials and take specific questions, but the message is, things in 2024 were very solid and very sound. Now, last year in this presentation, we have enumerated much of the progress that we had made in past 5 years since we were -- since 2019 when we raised a significant amount of capital and listed on the Toronto Stock Exchange. I would say that we're going to revisit some of that here, but I'd really like to look at it through the lens of the shareholder. So what are we doing as Board of Directors? What are we doing as an executive team? We are fundamentally overseeing and making investments to guide the future of this company. That is enabling us to deliver results as we have over the past 5 years. We are giving the capital back to our shareholders through an increasing dividend stream and buying back shares to enable our shareholders to tangibly share in that growth. We are creating a more robust trading market on the Toronto Stock Exchange. We've seen improved price discovery, much improved liquidity, all to the benefit of our shareholders. And we have some specific initiatives that we have in place and here, and you may have passed them along the way in to help our shareholders and in particular, our small individual shareholders to facilitate their access to their dividend stream and access to the market. So over the number -- over the last 5 years, we have made tremendous strides. Fundamentally, we have significantly broadened the reach of Sagicor, we have meaningfully expanded our business in the United States. And in 2023, we entered the Canadian market. Between those two initiatives, we have meaningfully expanded the areas in which we can operate and grow our company. We continue to strengthen our balance sheet. We brought a lot of capital into Sagicor in 2019, and our job was to invest that well. We've seen the results. We have more than doubled the size of our asset base, and we have significantly improved our credit profile to being -- to recapturing the international investment-grade status. And to make all of this happen, the Board and the executive team have been investing in our people and in the technology to enable our people to enact this change. And fundamentally, the results so far have been outstanding. So some of this is a refresh of what we talked about last year, but it's worth revisiting. We have more than doubled the asset base of this company. On an apples-to-apples basis, we have more than doubled the profitability of the company. Our shareholders' equity, including that contractual service margin that will emerge as future profit which makes it comparable to what our book value was 5 years ago, has more than doubled on a per share basis. And we have significantly increased the proportion of our assets that are investment -- in investment-grade markets. That improves our cost of funding, that improves our cost of capital, that improves our own credit rating, and fundamentally we'll deliver better risk-adjusted returns to the shareholders over time. And we are sharing in that growth. So you would have seen in March of this year, after a number of years of dividends, which we continue to pay including in the difficult years of COVID, but a constant dividend stream. Now for the second year in a row, we have increased our dividend payout to our shareholders because we have the capacity to do so. We intend to look at this. Again, every year, we intend to continue to reinvest our capital and grow our net income. And that would tell you that we intend to make this as long as it's supported by the financial strength and annual recurring event. So we have paid over USD 180 million of dividends to you, the shareholders, over the past 5 years. In addition, we have returned a further $62 million of cash to our shareholders through share repurchases. And today, our share count is 10% lower than it was when we did that transaction in December 2019. And that's as a result of this return of capital to our shareholders, which is a good use of our capital and one that benefits us all. And we have made great strides in creating a trading market. Since we have brought on board the Canadian acquisition and fundamentally transformed the profile of the company, we have seen significantly more trading volume on the Toronto Stock Exchange. You can see here on those little black bars behind the blue graph an indication of just how much more trading there is in our stock over the last 6 months compared to where it had been prior. Depending where you choose to start measuring, we're up between 40% and 60% on our share value over where we were less than 2 years ago. We're absolutely not satisfied with this, but it is, at the same time, going in the right direction. And so we're very pleased that we can all observe a broader market waking up to the value of the shares that we believe is significantly in excess even of where we are today and will continue to grow into the future. And we have heard from our local shareholders that people need help to access that market. So it is -- in today's electronic world, it is becoming more and more cumbersome to cash physical dividend checks, particularly when they're in a currency that is not a local currency. And we are here to help with that. For our shareholders here in Barbados, we have an initiative with our own digital -- homegrown digital bank, which can accommodate direct deposit of dividends like the old days for Sagicor, for Barbados residents. And we have a boost setup over there to sign up and get an account, please. We have also just recently announced an initiative to make it easier for local shareholders to access the market by opening up e-brokerage accounts, easy to open. And further, we have announced an initiative to reimburse the costs associated with transferring your shares from the TSX's DRS accounts into e-brokerage accounts. And so this is something that is, we believe, is a positive step and shows that -- while we, of course, would prefer our shareholders to continue to stay with us over time, we acknowledge that there's been friction for -- particularly for small shareholders who wanted to sell their shares, and we're doing something about it and we truly hope that this helps. And so the team at Sagicor Asset Management is just outside this room as well, if any shareholders would like to discuss that or avail themselves of some of this help. So just in closing, we're very excited about our prospects. I think we've built on a tremendous couple of years with financial results, but there is a lot more good news to come. You've seen the theme in our annual reports, better as one. This is a theme that the team members in the room would be well aware of in terms of Sagicor's various entities coming together, working together, sharing best practices and acting as a single team for the betterment of our organization. Really embracing change, embracing technology, figuring out how to do things better and fundamentally growing that return on shareholders' equity for the better of us all. So I thank you for your time. Thank you for coming, and very much look forward to your questions. And with that, I would pass it back to you, Chair.

Thank you, Andre. The first matter on the agenda is for the shareholders to receive the company's audited consolidated financial statements for the year ended December 31, 2024, together with the notes there too, and the independent auditor's report thereon, both of which can be found in our annual report. The 2024 annual report is available to all shareholders through the Investor Relations page of our website and on SEDAR+. The annual report is also available in the documents tab on the left-hand side of your screen. Copies of the annual report were also available at the entrance to the physical meeting room. I invite shareholders or proxy holders, who are physically present, to ask any questions which relate to the 2024 audited financial statements.

[ Don Moore ] representing Macquarie Inc. I missed most of the introduction, but I just have a few questions for the Board. On Page 32, 33 of the -- I guess this is the management circular. Not sure what document this is, anyways.

It is.

It is? Yes, thank you. I just wanted comment and a question. In the last paragraph, does not give a breakdown of the other fees that the directors earn. So is there a reason why that last column is combined and not broken down into more detail?

I'm not following you. If you are talking about the table? You're speaking about the table?

Yes.

The table shows the total.

Okay, the column that says all other compensation. So the second last column.

Okay. Let me explain what happened. The fees earned in the first column, those are fees for Sagicor Financial. All of the compensation related to fees that directly to be earned from other companies within the group, they're all directed fees, but we separate Sagicor Financial from other companies, and the total represents all fees across the group.

Thank you for that. So my question still is, why is it that particular column broken down to see -- to show exactly what is earned from each unit?

I'm not sure whether you're aware of the number of companies within the Sagicor Group. It would take a number of pages to do that. Sagicor is a big group.

Page 34 of the same document. It says there was a base salary increase for executives, and it has this was to remain competitive. And I would just like an explanation of who it is that Sagicor deems it necessary to remain competitive with.

I'll take that, and then I'd invite the Chair of the Compensation and Human Resources Committee to add to the answer. We -- for each of the executives, we do benchmark against similar-sized companies. And companies operating in similar markets in each of the local geographies that we operate, was still being cognizant of the regional differences. And so the compensation is something that is reviewed annually by a committee of the Board. And that Board avails itself of third-party expertise where appropriate.

That is entirely so. And wherever we operate, we have to do service to see what happens in the marketplace and to ensure that we are able to keep our executives.

Thank you Mr. Campbell. Okay so on Page 38, 39, it does list some tables for certain executive members. So I guess, you're on the Human Resources Committee. My first question here would be, can you elaborate the methodology that your committee used to determine adequate levels of compensation?

As said before, we look at what the market pays. And then we have essentially three ways of dealing with it. A, the base pay; b, restricted stock units, and restricted RSU and long-term stock units. What we try to do is to ensure that management's performance is tied. So while they get their base pay, the long-term performances, the restricted and long-term shares are actually based on performance of the company. And what we try to do is try to get their performance to tie in with those of the shareholders. That means it's the performance of the company. Once they deliver the performance of the company, then they will in fact benefit from that.

Now Ernest & Young said that they expected slow economic activity heading into 2025 as there was still elevated prices and interest rates, which would curb -- expected to curb private sector activity and households were projected to spend more prudently as labor market conditions and income growth softened further. So while elevated financing costs lead businesses to hire and invest with this question, business leaders are expected to continue to curb wage growth. Hurry with caution and proceed with strategic layoffs to contain costs. And this was October 15, 2024 from [ Astron Solutions ]. I'm not too sure if anyone on the table is familiar with that, right? So that's what they wrote. They went further and said economic trends remain cloudy at best. And the key, the compensation projections is the labor market. So if employment remains below 5%, they anticipate employers having to maintain robust compensation budgets and anticipate 3% to 4% compensation budget for 2025. So my next question would be this base pay, can you give a percentage as to what increase was given in that, I guess, '24?

Essentially, we read those items too and we know what is taking place in the market, and we see what other companies do in that market. So we try to remain competitive.

Okay. So you can't give a percentage increase form the previous year?

I don't think we should.

No, that's not part of the disclosure. I mean, we start with baseline guidelines that would be informed by surveys like that. I haven't read that one specifically, but then you modify for changes based on merit and based on change in position. So there's -- this is something that we pay a lot of attention to. And an employee or an executive's compensation is tailored to that person and to that position, and it's really only appropriate to talk about specific disclosure in the context of the five named executives who are compelled to disclose it by the stock exchange.

Now Advisor.ca said in April 1, 2025, Mr. Roy Gori, President and CEO of Manulife, which is listed as one of your competitors, right? Since Gori's total compensation was $20.5 million before he retired, I guess, last year or early this year, which included an incentive award of $6 million. And Manulife's last full year revenue was $36 billion. But what I read in this document here, total compensation for CEO, Sagicor is $2 million. I'm not sure if it's $1.5 billion or $2 billion. Paul Mahon, President and CEO of Great-West Lifeco and Canada Life, his total was $12.7 million and his annual incentive bonus was $3.4 million. So Manulife CEO was there from 2017, Great-West Lifeco's CEO was there from 2013. So I'm just trying to figure out because I couldn't get it from your document. Again, what's the basis of determining executive pay? Manulife generates over 10 -- almost 15x what Sagicor generates in revenue, and their executive is only getting 10x to the previous, 10x to what Sagicor's CEO is getting. And furthermore, Sagicor's CEO is only appointed, I think 2022, 2023. Manulife's CEO has been in place and was in place from 2017. So again, I ask what's your methodology in determining compensation?

Just before you respond to that last question, I would just ask that, that would be the last question. We have suggested two questions per individual, and we're now at the sixth or seventh question, and we'd like for others to be able to participate in the Q&A. So Archi, please go ahead with this.

Just to say before we appointed a new CEO, we got a firm to actually do a search for us. And when we saw the numbers that are coming in -- that were coming in and what we were expecting, we thought that we could, in fact, believe in Mr. Mousseau, we voted on that. And we looked at the competitors in the marketplace, and we actually compensated in fairly to, in fact, meet the needs. And if you want to talk about performance, look at the asset growth that has taken place in the company. So you can look at the performances and we believe that we are actually compensating him and providing an incentive for him to actually grow shareholder value. So if you look at the base versus the final, you can see that his performance actually helps to drive the growth in value for the shareholders, and that is what we are looking for.

No, Mr. Chairman, we've been through this before at previous meetings.

Actually we have, and we're going to go the same way this year as we have last year and the year before and the year before. And I'm going to interrupt you. And as I suggested a minute ago, we've taken multiple questions from you. We appreciate it. We're here after this meeting and happy to answer any more questions that you have on this particular topic.

But if you're under these stock exchange rules, there should be a bylaw that's passed and circulated to the shareholders to agree to two questions per shareholder per question.

I appreciate the legal advice.

It's not legal, that's how it is. So the thing is...

It actually isn't the way it is.

It's fine if anyone wants to come up and speak and ask questions, that's fine, but.

Any other questions from the floor?

I'm not sure why the Board every year gets offended when I ask questions.

We're not offended at all.

You are allowing me that I ask two questions, but the shareholders are owners of the company. So it's not a matter of you allowing. You have a fiduciary duty, all of you, to act on behalf of the shareholders. So you can't say you are allowing me.

If I may, we have over 35,000 shareholders, you are a newer one.

Like I said, if someone else is asking questions.

I'm not sure, you're giving them the opportunity by standing at the microphone and not going back to your seat.

There's two other microphones -- three.

Chair, we do have a question online. It relates to -- it's from [ Carvey Chase ], who wants to know, does Sagicor have a trajectory for growth expansion in Europe.

In Europe, is that the question? Not at this time. I would say, no. I think we've articulated our twin growth strategies, which is our focused growth in our niche markets in North America and continued broader growth and expansion in the Caribbean. I think our current strategic objectives are to keep things in those time zones, so to speak.

Any other online questions, Althea?

No other online question at this time.

[ David Right ]. A very big question for Mr. Mousseau. The expansion that Sagicor has gone through over the years. I think I believe I understand you guys would be looking seriously at the efficiency of the organization, which also therefore require a lot of investment in technology. Is there satisfaction and well, that's my word, probably best way I can put is, is there a satisfaction now what you're doing is being done with such pace as required while at the same time, recognizing the risk that are there, especially from the point of view of cybersecurity because, as you know, we've had -- Sagicor has a seriously large customer base of personal information. And I think because the customers and shareholders would like to know that our information is safe, do you have any comment in that regard?

Well, thank you for the question. And I think we're very aligned with you in terms of treating digital transformation as well as the data of our customers and their separate issues that do often go hand-in-hand as strategic imperatives. I made the comment a few minutes ago about embracing change. And this is -- one of the very important elements of that is to invest in the technologies that allow us to administer a business more efficiently on the back end and interact with our customers in a more efficient and customer-friendly way on the front end, all while being very cognizant of the real risks of cybersecurity and increasing the reliance on technology. So am I satisfied? I know that we have major strategic initiatives with respect to digital transformation. We have made significant additions to our team, including at the most senior level at our new Chief Digital Officer, who was brought on board last year. And we're making significant progress in that respect. The current state of our cybersecurity is very good and we continue to keep an eye on that. Digital transformation, I wouldn't say I'm satisfied yet, but it's certainly an initiative that we're spending a lot of calories on.

Chairman, maybe if I can have one more question?

Yes, please.

All this has being done, obviously, I would imagine within the context of the data privacy legislation that is now [ enveloped ] in the world. Are we again satisfied that we are adhering to those base of legislation that's applicable to the territories that will be operating?

Yes. And it's a cost of doing business in each of the jurisdictions that we operate in. Everyone's universally getting to the same principles, but they get there in slightly different ways. And so that's a cost of doing business that we have for being in over 20 different geographies. But we believe we do it well.

Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. My name is Philip Osborne. Following on from an earlier question, I was wondering whether the Board and management really assess the sort of opportunities for the use of artificial intelligence to improve the customer experience of Sagicor and also to enhance the returns to shareholders and enhance the financial returns to the policyholders and other persons who hold investment products with us.

Thank you, Philip. That was a subject of rigorous conversation over the last couple of days as the Board has met. We are studying it and have multiple trials internally. We are not doing everything yet -- as of yet to have it out in front of the facing the customers. So I think this is a huge opportunity for us to create efficiencies as we upgrade and go through a digital transformation to give our employees the tools to do more with what they have. We have been, I think, appropriately cautious about allowing it to go live and actually touch customers as of yet. But the technology is improving month by month, and we will get there.

And I would just remind you that we created the first digital bank in the Caribbean. And so that is a leading edge and very large investment in the technologies that you were talking about.

Yes. I would just end by a further comment that I see this process of artificial intelligence and technology. It's a journey, it is not something that you get it, it's a continuous journey, and we should look at all aspects of the business in terms -- as I said, the customer experience, but also the returns.

Paul [indiscernible]. My question relates to Sagicor Bank. So Chair, thanks for mentioning that. And I'm going to tie the e-brokerage to that as well, two very good tools that can be used across our 22-plus markets to provide value added to our shareholders. And what are your expansion plans? What are the expansion plans relating to Sagicor Bank is the first one? And then how can we utilize e-brokerage to enhance the experience for our shareholders?

Two good questions. At Sagicor, we actually operate banks in two jurisdictions, they're just quite different. In Jamaica, we have a long-standing local bank that we brought into the group about 10 years or so ago today. Whereas here in Barbados, as the Chair alluded to, we have the fun of building one from scratch, and therefore, have something that is quite a technological marvel. And you can imagine that we would have built that on the basis of bringing it to other markets. So you can observe where we operate and have meaningful market shares for Sagicor Life. And as it's becoming clear that Sagicor Bank Barbados, is a success in this market, we are considering rolling it out further. With respect to the e-brokerage, there's obviously the relatively narrow opportunity to help with shareholders who own Sagicor shares. And I'm very pleased that we're able to provide that help to our shareholders. But I think that if you look at elsewhere in the group, we've made the asset management business, a higher proportion of our earnings overall and a higher proportion of our relevance to our customers, not just our policy holders across multiple lines of business. And so again, that's something that we do well up in Jamaica and Cayman. And I think we have the opportunity to expand that further. We've significantly grown our rebooted asset management business in Trinidad over the last couple of years, but I think there's more that we can do throughout especially the Sagicor Life footprint.

[ Ed victor ] as you might know me. A question on Jamaica. I noticed Jamaica net premium income, new business are both up, but earnings are going in the opposite direction. Can you explain what's going on?

You're looking at the results for 2024. The Jamaican business has seen a transitory period of margin contraction. And we saw it off the back of COVID. There were certain contracts that were in Jamaica, where we started to get hit with inflation on medical expenses, for example. And we're taking in fixed revenues or fixed premium from some of our group accounts. And dynamics like that, I'd say, shrank the margins for the entire Jamaican life insurance market, and it's the sort of thing that takes some time to shake out. Our Q1 results are almost ready, and I think it will be announced shortly. So all I would say is there are green shoots of mitigation of that. And I think you'll observe a similar dynamic even here with Sagicor Life with respect to some of the margins compared to where they were a number of years ago. And similarly, as we are putting more distance between ourselves and COVID and there's more and more normalized business activity, we seem to be reverting to the mean of profitability in those core markets, which we believe will continue to be a positive trend.

[ Mr. Moore ], can I refer you to Page 12 of the circular and the circular is a document that is legally reviewed. We do understand the question in relation to the two questions, but we do have to also permit other shareholders that we have to have an orderly meeting. So I would like to suggest that you ask one more question in relation to this particular segment and that we move on to the formal business of the meeting because we are still not there yet. You can ask your other questions later in the meeting.

Okay. So that wasn't said or that clarification wasn't given. So what I'll do then, I'll just make a statement and I'll save my questions for later. COB Barbados, they have assets, I think, of BBD 600 million or BBD 700 million. And they have the meeting for the whole day at Erskine Sandiford Centre. Sagicor allegedly has $22 billion in assets. And every year, I come and ask questions, you're telling me I have two questions and you want to be out of here in 60 minutes. I think -- I know it is very disrespectful that the owners or the shareholders to be conducting business in that matter. This meeting should be for an entire day, so that people have questions to ask, they can ask them without being told, you sit down and shut up. Now again and I've dealt with this issue with other companies, you have a fiduciary duty as directors to be accountable to the owners who are the shareholders.

So my commentary on that, and I do think we need to move on is to my friends at PwC, I hope you don't take offense to the alleged $22 billion on the assets that are in our signed annual financial statements.

My name is [indiscernible]. This is the second annual meeting I've attended. The first one I attended in 2010 in which Mr. Miller was put in charge. I assume you mentioned about the Sagicor Bank Barbados. And I am not sure is it going to be open where other shares other than Barbados are able to deposit their dividends in that bank.

I believe that we have made special arrangements for Sagicor shareholders to take the direct deposits from the TMX. I'm looking at George Thomas, who's the Chief Executive of the bank. Is that correct? So it's just for Sagicor shares at this time.

I suppose you probably don't realize, I'm from Trinidad. And there's a serious problem with the mailing system. It takes about 2 months, sometimes a bit longer to get your checks in the mail. In fact, that is George [ that write me mail ] . So it's something that would be very helpful if you can have another option of trying to get your dividends at quicker times. So something to consider because I believe that Trinidad still has the largest amount of shareholders, at least once before when I first came in.

Yes, that is correct. That is still correct. Yes, sir.

And there's two other things that you mentioned...

Before you go on, sir, we do allow for direct deposit accounts in Trinidad. So it doesn't have to be Sagicor bank. Any bank in Trinidad, there is a form to be completed. We would have notified...

I have discussed on it. This is an option, but yes, I probably missed that also.

Okay, because we can talk about that outside.

There's two items you mentioned, potential shareholders. First, item 4, create a trading market, and item 5, help our shareholders access the market. I don't know if you want to expand on that because I wasn't sure what you really meant there.

With the former, it was about encouraging more trading on the Toronto Stock Exchange. So the average daily trading volume today over the last 4 or 5 months is more than 5x what it would have been a year ago. And so that is a reflection of the results, but also the effort that we have made to engage with the market -- that we've engaged with the market in Canada to attract new investors to put more of a bid out on the stock, which has resulted in those higher share of volumes. So on a given day, if one has 20,000 shares to sell, it's much easier to do so today than it would have been a year ago. With respect to making things easier, it's little things like having our teams available here to facilitate opening e-brokerage accounts as well as undertaking to cover the cost of transferring shares into the account to alleviate the financial burden on that was disproportionately borne by small shareholders.

Chair, there are no more online questions.

In accordance with the Bermuda Companies Act and the company's bylaws, the audited financial statements are presented to the meeting, but no other action is required with respect to them. The second item of business is the election of the directors of the company. The management information circular for the meeting lists the 14 director nominees. We wish to thank retiring director, Stephen Facey for his contribution to the company over the last many years. The nominees identified in the management information circular for election of director -- for election as directors are: Andre Mousseau, Sir. Hilary Beckles, Dr. Archibald Campbell, Peter Clarke, Keith Duncan, Monish Dutt, Dennis L. Harris, Cathleen McLaughlin, most honorable Dodridge Miller, Gilbert Palter, Alan Ryder, Reza Satchu, Aviva Shneider and Mahmood Khimji. I ask a shareholder to move to formally nominate as a director. Each of the proposed director nominees named in the management information circular for this meeting for election as a Director of Sagicor Financial Company Ltd, each to serve until the next Annual Meeting of Shareholders or until their respective successor is elected or appointed or until their office is otherwise vacated in accordance with the company's bylaws. I ask a shareholder to second this motion. As no notice of additional Director nominees was received in accordance with the company's bylaws, I declare nominations closed. I ask a shareholder to move to elect each of the 14 named individuals as directors of the company. I ask a shareholder to second this motion. I invite shareholders or proxy holders who are physically present to ask any questions which relate to the election of directors. Madam Secretary, have we received any online questions relating to this item of the business?

No, Chair, no questions on this item.

Persons voting at the physical meeting are invited to use the ballot received to cast their votes on this item of business. As a reminder to shareholders and proxy holders voting online at the meeting, to vote on this item of business, use the electronic ballot on the left-hand side of your screen, and under item #1, you will find listed the names of the 14 nominees for election to the Board of Directors listed in management information circular. For each nominee, you may vote for or withhold voting. As previously noted, the results of the voting will be shared later in the meeting. The next item of business is the appointment of the company's external auditor for the next year and authorizing the Board of Directors to fix their remuneration. I ask a shareholder to move that PricewaterhouseCoopers SRL, be appointed as the company's external auditor until the next Annual Meeting of Shareholders and that the Board of Directors be authorized to fix the auditor's remuneration. I ask a shareholder to second this motion. I invite shareholders or proxy holders who are physically present to ask any questions which relate to the reappointment or remuneration of the auditor. Madam Secretary, have we received any online questions related to this item of business?

No, Chair.

Persons voting at the physical meeting are invited to use the ballot received on arrival to cast their votes on this item of business. To vote online on this item of business, use the electronic ballot on your screen, and under item #2, you may vote for or withhold in respect to the motion. That is the final formal item of business. As such, discussion of the items of the business is now closed and online voting will close in 15 seconds. Please ensure you register your votes now if you wish to do so and have not already done so. We invite the polling assistants to collect the ballots from those physically in attendance. [Voting]

The polls are now closed with respect to voting on all the motions. Voting results are being tabulated by the scrutineers and will be provided later in the meeting or shortly thereafter. The report on voting results will be incorporated into the minutes of the meeting. The final voting results will be posted on the Investor Relations page on Sagicor's website and filed under the company's profile on SEDAR+. I'm advised by the Secretary that there are no other matters of business to properly come before the meeting. At this time, we would like to open the floor to any other questions the shareholders or properly attending proxy holders may have relating to the company. I will ask the Corporate Secretary to review the online procedure for our shareholder question period.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. If shareholders or properly attending proxy holders wish to ask a question or make a comment, please enter your question in the messaging platform on your screen. I will read the questions that are submitted via the web portal and consolidate questions of the same nature. If we do not have time to respond to appropriate questions in today's session, we will post a list of those questions and Sagicor Financial Company Limited's responses on our website on the Investor Relations page.

I remind all shareholders of the guidelines for questions that were provided in the preliminary remarks at the start of this meeting and the request that as a matter of courtesy, you limit yourself to two questions or remarks.

I must make an announcement, if anyone wishes to get up and ask questions in the interim while I'm talking, I will give it. Before I start, I just want to clarify, I was not accusing PwC of anything. I said allegedly because I could not recall offhand what the actual assets of the company was. So I'm not sure what that statement by Mr. Mousseau was about. Secondly, I'm just asking questions, I'm not accusing individual directors of anything, and I find.

Allegedly.

Yes, allegedly exactly, right? So directors don't need to take questions personally, I haven't called anyone by name, I'm just asking questions, right?

I know, but I feel bad for PwC. They work very hard.

Yes, but I did not accuse them of anything. I couldn't remember the figure. So I said $22 billion, that was it.

That's an incorrect use of allegedly though, because when you say allegedly, you're casting down on someone else. You're not casting doubt on your own memory, but...

Right. So I'll just carry on. Now Fitch in October 29, 2024, they were doing analysis on Sagicor. And they said Sagicor has risky asset ratio above 270%, along with higher exposure to sovereigns to capital, particularly in Barbados, Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago. It says financial leverage exceeding 35% and interest coverage ratio below 3x. It says a decline in ivari, that's one of the firms that Sagicor has purchased over the years.

Correct. Not allegedly. We call it Sagicor Canada now.

It's good that you have a sense of humor, Andre.

Yes, sir. So it's just dry, it's Canadian.

So a decline in ivari -- ivari's IFS rating on a stand-alone basis to below A and/or declining cash flows available to the holding company, which is Sagicor, and significant deterioration in the operating environments and sovereigns of Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago, which would lead to a material decline in operating performance and our credit profile of FSC investment, which is Sagicor Financial Corporation (sic) [ Financial Services Commission ]. So can you -- one of you or maybe someone sitting here at the front, can you give some critique on what Fitch has said about your current condition? And if you agree with this analysis, what measures will be taken to rectify?

So you had an interesting point, and we agree. I believe what you're talking about there is Fitch talking about the hypotheticals of what are things that could make our credit profile work, and they do talk about possible deterioration of Barbados or Jamaica's credit profiles, both of which are observably improving and have done over the last number of months and quarters, that there is an example of the prejudice that this company faces from the international rating agencies and the credit markets and that they disproportionately risk weight this company for exposure to our home markets. And all we can do is educate those firms about the soundness of our aggregate capital base and all of our procedures as well as increase the proportion of investment-grade assets that we have on our balance sheet, which is why if you look at my little charts with the 2 little doughnuts, one bigger than the other, 5 years ago, we had fewer than 60% of our investment -- of our assets were investment-grade, now over 75% are, and that is what has allowed Fitch as well as S&P, notwithstanding the commentary that you did read, which is hypothetical, to upgrade us by 2 notches. And so the efforts that we have put forward both in terms of actual de-risking of our balance sheet in aggregate and the advocacy for the soundness of the history of this enterprise have led Fitch to call us significantly less risky than we were 5 years ago. Thank you.

Now a further analysis states that 60% of Manulife shares are held by institutional investors. Comparatively, only 0.3% of FSC Sagicor is held by institutional investors. And 0% of Manulife Financial shares are held by insiders, but 34% of Sagicor's financial shares are held by insiders, meaning if you have strong institutional ownership, right, that they believe that a stock will outperform the market over...

Whose segmentation was that when you said 0% was owned by institutions...

Manulife. Manulife Financial.

But who said that 0% of Sagicor was owned by institutions?

No, no. 0% of Manulife Financial shares are held by insiders and 34.2% of Sagicor...

It's hard for us and not particularly useful to speculate on other company's shareholder base. I would say that the insider share ownership at Sagicor is a strength. We have representatives from several major shareholders who have put up both institutional and personal capital at risk to invest in this company, they serve on the Board that provides excellent alignment between your Board of Directors who does work for all of you as the shareholders because they're shareholders themselves. So I thank you for the second excellent question and would invite anyone else.

But I do remember being told that in this segment, we can ask what questions do we have, right? Is that not what was said?

Ms. Hazzard said 2.

That's not what you said. You said in the other segment.

I ask you to hold your questions for the other segment, but we do have to let other people -- there is some...

No, that's fine, that's fine. But I'm saying you didn't say 2.

You also need to sit when other people are speaking because it's kind of strange that you are still standing there when other people are making their point. So...

But I'm not finished with my questions, right? So anyways, I'll give and I'll come back.

Mr. Mousseau, we, as long-standing shareholders of the organization, have a good sense of what Sagicor was prior to the acquisition of ivari. And I would wonder if you could just shed some light on some thoughts, particularly on ivari and its acquisition and where it positions itself in any market and who does it appeal to and how do you see it fitting into the legacy Sagicor organization.

Sure. Thank you, Robert. Ivari traces its heritage to the original Canadian branch of Transamerica. So Transamerica itself is a long-standing insurance -- American insurance company, not as long-standing as us, but very few are. And so ivari, under its predecessor, has been operating in the Canadian market for some 90 years. So it's a robust company that's been around for generations, several hundred thousand policyholders and pretty diverse book of business, term life insurance, universal life insurance. And its current segment of the market is to focus on middle market, and so that being differentiated from upper market for bigger policies or customers that have high net worth or very high income. And so the natural fit with Sagicor is not only that we sell these policies, and you have this natural fit between the Caribbean and Canada, which, going back to the shared commonwealth heritage, we all have the same accounting and actuarial standards, same legal frameworks and all of that. The demographic focus of what for the Canadian market is a smaller average policy size, a smaller annualized premium is actually a really good match for what we're selling right here in Sagicor Life. So I think it was a good business to buy just on the basis of its financials, but it's turning out to be a great business to have as part of the group because we're able to add value to them and they're able to add value to us.

Althea, do you have an online question?

Following on that question, [ Mr. Prasad ] who asked -- well, who comments that the Sagicor Canada transaction was a game-changer and wants to know whether Sagicor continues to look at additional acquisitions?

We do continue to look at other acquisitions. The Sagicor Canada transaction was transformational. It's not clear that we would have another transformation ready to go right away. But we're a natural consolidator in our home markets, and we have a team that is actively on the lookout for opportunities. So we shall see.

Can you hear me?

Yes, sir.

My name is [ Richard Cox ]. First of all, I'd like to thank Sagicor for all the wonderful initiatives that they've put in place well over the years. I think a lot of them are much appreciated. My comment and question this evening is regarding Barbados Farms. Around the year 2007, Sagicor Group purchased Barbados Farms and in a statement made the following comment, and I quote, "Sagicor's intention is to collaborate with the management of Barbados Farms to bring new and innovative thinking to its business to modernize and transform agricultural production in order to achieve efficiency and improve the operating performance of the company," end of quote. The sugar, and more so, rum industry remains very important to Barbados economy in terms of employment and foreign exchange. Barbados Farms is one, if not the largest grower of sugarcane on the island and is therefore critical to the success of the sugar and rum industry. In fact, industry -- the industry would collapse should Barbados Farms stop growing sugarcane. As a Barbadian citizen, I am concerned that Sagicor has not invested the funds needed to revitalize Barbados Farms, but instead chooses to move along from year-to-year and not have a long-term plan. My question is, does Sagicor intend to change the direction by investing more into Barbados Farms? By so doing, they will increase production, increase employment and pave the way for others, including small farmers, to follow.

Thank you for your question. And I think we share some of the concerns around the recent performance of Barbados Farms. I might invite the most Honorable Mr. Miller to comment.

Should have stayed a little bit longer. We bought Barbados Farms in -- I think it was 2008. And almost immediately upon buying Barbados Farms, we approached the government of Barbados for strategy for agriculture because we knew that agriculture was contributing a loss. So governments have indicated that they do not intend to continue subsidies to the agriculture sector. It therefore made it very difficult for you to commit long-term capital to an industry whose future was uncertain. We continue to work with every government since then, waiting for a cohesive strategy for agriculture and has yet to emerge. And I think you know this. We remain willing to participate in the industry for the benefit of the country. We cannot commit shareholder funds to an industry whose future is uncertain. So we continue to engage even -- and myself, we are constantly in contact with the minister. We're yet to get a strategy that we feel has a long-term value to the country.

Really, it's just almost mind-boggling that government is unable to give Sagicor some sort of commitment because they -- if you speak to the government ministers and persons of very high level within government, they will tell you how important the industry is to the country. And although there have been efforts in the last couple of years to make changes in terms of the ownership of the company, which hasn't been -- the industry, sorry, which hasn't been successful, it's -- well, I don't want to say it's sad that we really cannot come to some sort of agreement where we can understand the importance. Surely, everyone can see the importance of rum especially. It's a growing market, a growing industry worldwide, and Barbados is regarded as the home of rum, and we drink a fair bit ourselves. But it's -- and maybe I understand that you're in a difficult position, but with the strength of Sagicor, surely, you can put some more pressure as such on government to really make a commitment for the future of the industry so that shareholders would feel comfortable with you, Sagicor, investing money into the industry. It is critical for the island.

I will just add to Mr. Miller's response that we continue to sustain very significant losses at Sagicor Farms in the hope that government policy will change and that we can invest in the long-term future of those lands. So we have not given up on the dream, but it has not achieved reality yet.

Okay. I just make one more comment, and that is I get a sense, and I may be wrong that the Sagicor is investing -- on an annual basis, they're putting in enough money to sort of prop it up and keep it going, but I don't think that's going to be the answer for long-term growth. You need to have a plan, a long-term plan, and say, listen, I'm going to invest so much money into the Barbados Farms. They may well need equipment. They need to be employing people possibly on a full-time basis, all of that, and have a plan. But I do understand your concern regarding the industry itself. But I think collaboratively, people need to make a better effort of moving forward with the industry.

We agree with you entirely. Board? [ Mr. Moore ], how about we agree to letting you ask a couple of more questions, go for another 10 minutes in your honor. And if I may ask, rather than you're quoting lengthy portions of statements, which we appreciate, but we're time constrained, we'd be very happy to just get to the questions and try and answer as many of them as we can for you in the next 10 minutes. And I personally undertake to spend more time with you personally after this meeting to answer as many questions as I can before I have to.

Well, I prefer to ask the questions in here because once you start to get [ overrun and quote ], things get blurry. But anyways, we'll press on.

You might like the answers better in that case.

Maybe.

So -- or at least I won't remember the answer.

So risk analysis, this is from The Global and Mail, it's not lengthy. And this is from March 26 of this year, and it lists as a risk significant insider selling over the past 3 months. This is for Sagicor Financial, and this was done by INK, I-N-K, Research Money is Moving. And it says a senior officer and director disposed of 376,200 common shares over the previous 3 months to March 26. So that is listed as a -- by INK as a risk or a concern if -- and again, I go back to my question about insider ownership. If you have significant insider ownership and then the insiders are selling, the market perceives that as a risk why is someone or someone's selling significant portions of their shares. So I don't know if anyone can comment on that.

The insider accumulation over the years has been well in excess of that, whether it's individual executives or other Board members. I think that based on my understanding of the disclosure, that would be accurate. But if you expanded the time horizon to 6 or 8 months, you would see that it would be an aggregate net positive. I know that 3 directors, 3 of us, have acquired shares over the last year. And in aggregate, it's added up to more than that. Everyone is going to have different personal situations. Sometimes people need to sell shares for other commitments, and everyone can see that. It's part of the public disclosure.

So you know who this person is?

I do, and you could find out if you knew at the website.

Well, I have it here. Do you want me to call the name or...

It's up to you.

Okay. So that's Mr. Miller.

Yes, right. Great. So -- but again, you could ask questions about Mr. Miller's service to Sagicor, if you like. Be ready for the answer.

Well, apparently, I'm only limited to 10 minutes, so -- but my -- okay. The point I'm trying to get at here is this has been a significant insiders own shares, and the market deems that insiders are selling significant amounts that could trigger some concerns in the market, right?

If you're looking at that...

You just have to factor in the acquisition of shares over the similar period of time, which have been significantly in excess of the share sales. So on a net basis, over the last 5 years, 4 years, 3 years, 2 years, 1 year, there's been more insider buying than insider selling. There is keen interest amongst insiders to buy more shares, and there isn't an analyst critic or shareholder that I've ever met who viewed insider ownership as a negative thing. It is the most positive thing that can happen to a public company because it drives shareholder alignment with Board and with financial outcome. So that fundamental premise, there are very few companies that I know of that have the level of insider ownership this company does, which is a resounding vote of confidence in the future of this company. And having sat in Board meetings here over the last 2 days, I can tell you that confidence in the future of this company has never been greater.

Now we would also remember that it's not just the insiders who should express confidence in the company. It's also the institutional and individual investors as well, so those 2 components. But okay. My next question has to do with the profit margin. I think this is on Page 108 to 115 of the report.

Could we take one question from somebody else and then revert to you? We'll keep your -- the remainder of your 10 minutes.

Sorry, Mr. Chair, I'll be very short. I just made an observation from the shortened version of the report where it was mentioned and the principal shareholders and [indiscernible], and then you had on the other page, it's Page 51, you have the -- well, you've just mention the other 1, 2, 3, 4 parties here. So I was just wondering whether [indiscernible] whether you could indicate [indiscernible] concerns from the number of -- the amount of shareholders [indiscernible] principal shareholders have to be a nice -- have to [indiscernible] at all. You indicated that [indiscernible] have [ 33,285,176 ], a [ 24.56% ], but they didn't indicate the other people what they had. So I just thought it'd be useful to have that kind of information to see who the major shareholders are -- and percentage of shares that they have. My other observation is that I thought it'd be nice if you have a 5-year summarized form of key performance of the company with the main metrics, earnings per share, the asset value and the price [indiscernible] on price and that kind of thing. So you can look and see how -- you have added there but if put in more detail, it will make more sense.

What I would say in relation to the other disclosures is that it is not required for the purposes of the Canadian securities regulations. This document is very much based on what is required. Information on insiders is readily available on SEDAR. I think that's where [ Mr. Moore ] gets the information because there is a disclosure in terms of shares held by insider. So there is information that is publicly available as well.

[ Mr. Moore ], you have the floor.

Okay. So Page 108 to 115, the financials. So it stated that the profit margins for the most recent fiscal financial year are 4.8%, which is lower than 2023, which was 34.8%. And earnings per share, I don't want to say allegedly, are $0.70 per share, down from $3.74. So it was stated or it's published that the dividends have been increasing over the past 5 years. And I think for this year, it's 12.5% more. So given that there's such a steep drop in profits, earnings per share, can anyone...

I alluded to this in my brief summary of 2024 results where I said that 2024 was -- would be dwarfed only by the performance in 2023. There was an extraordinary amount of net income in 2023. The majority of that was related to the acquisition of the Canadian business where the way our partners at our accounting firm tell us to do things is when you acquire a company for less than the value of the assets, you fill the gap by taking profit, which is what happened with ivari. So as you would look at the 2024 income, I would encourage you to compare it to the core income in 2023, which is not an IFRS figure, but it's our estimate of our estimate of how the inherent profitability of the business, absent those fluctuations. And so that would show something much more along the lines of significant but reasonable growth. And that is the basis on which we are sharing the profits with our shareholders by increasing the dividend, in aggregate, by about 20% over the last 2 years.

[ Mr. Moore ], one last question. It could be a long one, but one. So are there short ones?

So I'm glad that you clarified that -- those numbers. So my question will be this. Taken into consideration that 2023 was an extraordinary year and the baseline profits over the last 5 years have been, I'd say, steady, what have the dividend increases that you mentioned earlier, and I can't remember the chart, but the dividend increases that were paid out, coupled with share buybacks, what effect has that had on, one, the cash flow of Sagicor; and two, Sagicor's ability to settle its long-term liabilities should they come due within the next -- let's say, by the end of 2026?

So that is a great question, and it goes to the heart of dividend policy and some of the strategic and tactical decisions that we had to make over the last 5 years. Today, we are in an excellent position to pay for our forward commitments through our liabilities. And those are some of the measures that we've put up in my presentation and you see throughout the financials in terms of, for example, the LICAT, life insurance capital adequacy test, being at 139% is -- I don't see my Chief Actuary, so I can take a shot at this. It's a measure of how much capital do you have in reserve to cover a shortfall in the liabilities. And when you're ahead of 100%, it tells you that you're very well capitalized. So we are extremely confident in our ability to meet our future obligations. I would say that today, our dividend payout policy, which is to pay between 30% and 40% of our annual core net income, is appropriate, and it's a balance which allows us to retain 60% to 70% of our net income to keep growing the company while still sharing a meaningful proportion of the profits with our shareholders. And today, we have that balance, we're well capitalized, maybe arguably overcapitalized, but well and appropriately capitalized. Five years ago, it was very different. So 5 years ago, we took in USD 0.5 billion. So USD 1 billion or -- BBD 1 billion, excuse me, of new equity capital, and we were significantly overcapitalized. And so 3 and 4 and 5 years ago, we were paying out more in dividends than the underlying core profit of the business. Many companies in our local markets chose to pause their dividends throughout the pandemic, we did not because we had more than enough capital to go through with that. And so we had made the temporary decision to have a dividend payout ratio that in 2020 was practically -- was infinite because we had no core net income. And so that was only appropriate in the context of having all this excess capital. And so we paid the dividend. We rewarded our long-standing shareholders. We bought back stock at a significant discount to fair value to the benefit of us all. Where we are today is a different situation. We have an appropriate dividend payout ratio that allows us to reward our shareholders, keep growing the business and have a growing income stream through time.

Right. And just one other addition to Andre's very complete response, there is no scenario under which all of those liabilities would come due in 1 year unless there was a catastrophic global event, at which point, the financials of the company would be secondary to survival. So we very carefully structured our assets and liabilities to withstand volatility. And the best test of that, the best recent test of that has been COVID where we had catastrophic global events, and the company has not only survived those events, but has strengthened and grown. And I would also just tell you that this Board is very deliberative about managing its liquidity and its balance sheet while serving its shareholders by providing both dividends and returns.

Right. No, I didn't -- maybe I didn't fully comprehend your answer, Andre. You said that...

I'll tell you what, why don't I describe it to you in more detail post adjournment?

No, no. No, it's just one small point here. You mentioned the insurance liabilities you have -- you've taken money, you have a liability. And then with that money, you can clear it. But I don't think you touched on the other liabilities of the debts and the loans and the ability to satisfy those.

Those liabilities are structured, so they don't all come due at the same time. And we've built a capital structure and a balance sheet that balances assets and liabilities. And so it is our anticipation, again, barring unforeseen catastrophic events that we can meet our debt obligations and other obligations in an appropriate and timely manner.

Okay.

Thank you.

Chair, we have one final online question, [indiscernible]. It says, where does Sagicor go from here for the next 50 years in its viability and stay relevant for forward-looking projections?

50 years.

I would say that Sagicor, thanks to some of the deep leadership throughout this room, has been relevant and important to its economies for over 130 years. And I have utter confidence driven by the teams that propel Sagicor across all of its jurisdictions that Sagicor will remain incredibly relevant in its markets over the next 50 years. We are innovating. We're aggressive. We're taking share. We're continuing to build great teams. We're led by some of the best people in the industry. We have some of the best markets in the industry, many markets that we have tremendous market share in. And so I personally, on behalf of the Board, I'm very, very confident about our ongoing relevance.

No more questions, Chair.

I think it's appropriate then to conclude the question period. The scrutineers have reported to me regarding the matters voted on today, and I will now announce the results. With respect to the resolution regarding election of each of the individuals nominated as directors, I declare that each of the 14 nominees is elected as a director of the company. With respect to the resolution to appoint PricewaterhouseCoopers as the auditor of the company for the ensuing year and to authorize the directors to fix their remuneration, I declare this resolution duly carried. This completes the business of the meeting. On behalf of the entire Board of Directors and management team of Sagicor Financial Company, we thank you for your ownership interest and your attendance at our Annual Shareholders Meeting today. Those of you who have joined us physically are invited to share in light refreshments outside. Thank you very much.