Shine Justice Ltd (SHJ) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Thank you for standing by, and welcome to the Shine Justice Limited FY '26 Full Year Results Call. [Operator Instructions] I would now like to hand the conference over to Carolyn Barker, AM Group Chief Executive Officer. Please go ahead.

Well, thank you very much. Well, welcome, everybody. It is a pleasure to be speaking with you again this time at the full year. With me today is Marc Devine, our Chief Executive Officer (sic) [ Chief Financial Officer ]; and also John George, our Investment Relations adviser. Simon Morrison, who has undertaken many of these presentations to the market. has moved from Managing Director to Executive Director and Head of International Mass Torts. So we'll be taking the meeting today, and Simon, no doubt, will be listening in his Head of International Mass Torts role, which is very exciting for the business. So what we're going to do is obviously take you through the results. You've got the pack downloaded no doubt. So we will be referring page numbers on the way through, should we need to. So everybody can keep up to speed or up to date with the -- as we're clicking here in the room in Brisbane, Queensland, Australia, our head office for Shine Justice. So we do have an improved result this year FY '26, up 2.3% on revenue, EBITDA, up 7% and net profit restored, which is very important, of course. Now, I want to point out that's on a statutory basis. We will talk about the one-off transaction that has affected our results for this year. That will be clearly articulated in the presentation as we go through. But we ended the year, 30 June '26, reporting higher revenue, improved earnings, stable operating cash flow and a well-funded balance sheet. And this improvement was driven by our growth in legal work, both in personal injury and in class actions and the higher fees billed, higher average new file fees, controlling still our cost -- back end cost, our cost management is very important for us to keep a focus on and then continuing to invest in emerging technology platforms to talk about and, of course, international growth initiatives. You will hear us talk about IMT, that is short in Shine talk for international mass torts, and we'll talk about that more in the presentation. And we have some exciting news about our international growth in that regard. So let me hand straight over to Marc Devine and take us through the numbers, Marc.

Thank you, Carolyn. Good morning, everyone. As Carolyn said, we'll reference the slide deck as published on the ASX this morning, and I'll give a brief overview on the high level numbers. As Carolyn said, there's sort of 2 sets if you like, the statutory numbers and we thought it very to call out the impact of the announcement that we released last Friday being the class action -- the legacy class action, sorry, which we've had to impair some revenue and some disbursements so I'll get to that in a minute. But on Slide 3, adjusted revenue of $209.2 million -- sorry, statutory revenue of $209.2 million, which is up 2.3%. As Carolyn said. Net work in progress is $366.6 million. So that's fairly stable, obviously, added WIP and billed off WIP, which is great. Just in the company's history, we're over $12 billion plus in damages recovered for our clients, which is a great number. And we finished the year with around 900 staff, in 50-plus offices, both in Australia, New Zealand, Thailand and the U.S. So increasing our domestic footprint as well as evolving with our international presence. If you move to Slide 4, we wanted to get this up front and center and explain the impacts of the write-down of the legacy class action. So you'll see on the table there, where it really impacted was the revenue line. So there was an $11.2 million increase in constrained rate carried against that matter. What that basically means is that we had recognized revenue of up to $11.2 million on that matter. And due to the outcome of the court proceeding -- interlocutory proceeding, sorry, in the U.S. under accounting standards, we had to provision against that. So that reduced the top line revenue by $11.2 million, without that transaction, the adjusted number is $220.4 million, which on a like-for-like basis compared to last year would be an increase of 7.8%. So we don't discount the adjustment that has occurred, but if it didn't occur, we would have been up around 8% of revenue for the year, which I think is a great outcome. The other part of that transaction was the disbursements that we carried on that matter, which Shine are currently carrying the balance sheet. So again, we've had to sort of impair those down $1.8 million, which made our operating expenses $175.9 million for the year, which is a 5.6% increase from the previous years. And obviously, in the previous year, there was an adjustment for fair value loss of circa $10 million that was included there as well. So take all that into account. I think the headline numbers, the EBITDA statutory of $31.7 million. The adjusted EBITDA taking into account backing up the transaction was $44.7 million. So 13.9% increase for the year, which again, I think just reflective of the focus on the business and how we're running both the personal injury and the class action business to get such a quite an impressive increase outside of that issue. Our net profit after tax, obviously the bottom line on a statutory basis $6.7 million, taking into account the adjusting items, the tax effect of those items, that actually adjusts about $15.8 million against $9.7 million adjusted for last year. So 62.9% increase, which is, again, a terrific result. And underneath that, we've got earnings per share statutory of $0.0574 against an adjusted of $0.1119, an 87% increase from last year. So quite a good result there with the exception of that legacy matter, which has had obviously a substantial impact, but I think we'd consider that a one-off type scenario. Move to Slide 5. This gives you sort of a snapshot on the adjusted basis, which basically just covers all the numbers I went through, $220 million revenue, $44.7 million adjusted EBITDA, operating cash flow of $19 million, that was stable for the year. There is some WIP that was built up, which we didn't build bill off during the year, which would have been nice to build off and increase the cash flow. And also, there were some investments, as Carolyn mentioned, in emerging technology and some of our operating costs to get in front of where we need to be from an emerging technology perspective. Move to Slide 6. So it's a 2-segment business that Shine has, personal injury, obviously and class actions. Personal injury side had some good growth during the year, both in revenue, EBITDA, whilst maintaining its cost base and class actions again grew during the year on an adjusted basis. And obviously, unadjusted it made a loss. So for personal injury, EBITDA of $36.6 million, up 18.4% on last year's number. But that's off the base of $181 million worth of revenue, which is up from $166 million in the previous year. Current sort of footprint, there's 47 personal injury offices around Australia and New Zealand and the U.S. with around 540-plus personal injury staff. It's around 8.5% of the market share according to the last IBISWorld report, which was back in 2025, which still means for us, which is the focus, there's still 73% of the market share outside the sort of the top 3 PI firms. So still a lot of market share that's out there that Shine can go out and try and increase its percentage. Class actions sit on the adjusted EBITDA of $8.2 million, which was up from last year of $7.7 million. So a good increase. There has been investment in class actions during the year in an investigation work. So it's obviously work we recognize -- sorry, work we do, we don't recognize it as revenue until such time as it reaches a test of being an active funded matter. So we did have a build up WIP on the class action side, which we're hoping once we start to file some of these cases this year to release into both the P&L and we'll get funded cash flows for them. Currently, the class actions team operating out of 6 Shine offices across Australia, New Zealand and the U.S. And there's 100-plus staff in the team. There's an intention to grow that as we get more of these matters through the pipeline, both domestically and through the international mass torts space. Moving to Slide 7. Just some high-level commentary on the results and what drove those results. So I said adjusted revenue up 7.8% to $220.4 million. Personal injury was a big part of that. What we saw during the year was we're getting more legal work per se out of our teams, which is great. The head count that we budgeted for last year, we didn't actually achieve, but it was offset by that increase in legal work per fee earner. So that's a really good outcome and something that we're pushing to continue through FY '27. And class actions, similar vein, a lot of work on the legal work per fee earner, they also increased. But some of this is investigation work, which is I said, we don't recognize any of that until such time as we can file it and have it funded and have lead plaintiffs and all sorts of things. Another positive during the year is staff turnover reduced. It was significantly higher than where it is at the moment, 24 months ago, I think, when I joined. But the team have worked really hard at that retention, keeping staff, changing the way we do things and just making sure that Shine is a place that people want to come and work at and positively as well on that staff retention front, we have a lot of people that have left Shine, that have been good leavers that wanted to come back, and they are coming back probably more than what we actually anticipated. As I said, earnings recovery, so net profit after tax, adjusted compared to last year, adjusted NPAT up compared to last year. And the basic EPS is also more or less double than it was last year as well. So really good outcome on the adjusted basis. Spoke briefly about cash generation. There were some positives underneath the sort of the slight headline number being the fees billed during the year for personal injury were higher than last year, and we are seeing higher values per matter than we were last year as well. So some of those lower quantum matters, we sort of, I guess, working in a different way to get better outcomes from a cash perspective. Class actions improved their fees during the year based off a number of resolutions that occurred and settlements that occurred during the year. And there's a couple of more of those that are pushed into FY '27, which will hopefully resolve and settle and we get paid for in the next sort of 6 months. Just put a comment there about towards normalized earnings. We don't really like to report adjusted numbers, and we'll only do so where they are material one-off events. But I think we dealt with the fair value loss on the fair consideration last year. We've unfortunately had this $30 million impact this year, which we've called out, but it's our goal to, I guess, get the business in a position where the numbers are the numbers that we're reporting on. It's a stable business. It's growing and hopefully just reporting normalized earnings, which is a goal of mine. That being said, I'll hand over to Carolyn now to go through Slide 9.

Thank you, Marc. Great CFO of the year. Thank you. All right. I want to go into personal injury and also class actions. We will more detail. So you'll see on Slide 9, we call it our personal injury scorecard, here is the numbers. $180.9 million in revenue, EBITDA for that segment, $36.6 million throughout the year, throughout the 12 months, 4,000 clients have been compensated. So we settled the matter and we paid the money for the wrongs that befell them during the period that we had their file. The client is at the heart of everything we do at Shine. So we're delight in these numbers. They're important to us. Damages secured for the year, $800 million plus. And then, of course, we've got to replenish the cabinet the whole time. So 5,900 new files were opened during the period. As mentioned before, we are one of the largest PI practices in Australia. We've got a national scale. You will see various reports, there are sort of varying numbers of our office numbers, meaning the number of offices that we have. And that's because we've adopted a forward-looking and as flexible as one can be property strategy. for our business right through Australia. We are in cap cities as you know, we're in regional centers. Some would say a few rural, none remotes as yet. However, what we are doing is if we see a demographic shift or there is a focus in an area that we know that we can respond to and help people in need, then we will go there, but we will use a more flexible office location and at outsource strategy. So this is not a pin drop, I'm not talking about that. It's about how we could have a presence in these areas, and that's important. You can see in the table on the pack to the left, there is a statutory PI revenue and EBITDA trends. Again, statutory because we want to show it in that way, given this presentation. So we have increased to $180.9 million, we did that because we continue with our disciplined approach. We have success in turning around some of these -- the business areas -- the jurisdictions and matter types that are -- that needed to have some special care and we have done that, particularly in Victoria. It's a great success story for us. We've been there for 21 years. It's hugely important as part of our whole and the Victorian team there have done outstanding work for our clients and for PI practice in the state of Victoria. We've said before, we've improved efficiency in legal work by upping the legal work per fee earner and the recovery rates, and we have the highest fees billed on record in our company in FY '26. We continue to really assiduously acquire new files, good quality new files for specific branches in '26. We are going to be far more assertive about that in '27 and that will be talked about later in the forward-looking files. And then, of course, Marc talked about our lower turnover. This has been 2 years of a really focused holistic approach to our staff, their wellbeing and their connection engagement with Shine and we are thrilled that we have so many of our staff return. That was an overt program. So we've meant to reconnect with our good leaders and we are so thrilled that they're back. Lisa Flynn is the Chief Legal Officer of PI and class actions. And so I believe she's listening today. We, though, have a Head of Class Actions in Craig Allsopp, who is doing an outstanding job in that segment of the business. He leads practice leaders across the East Coast Australia for what we call domestic class actions and he and his people also -- yes, also work with him tirelessly on that. Now the CFO has just pointed out that I have finger fumbled one of the slides. And so I'm going to let go of that because people can read that, and it talks about our upside opportunity in our deep pipeline. But I wanted to -- I want to go to our class action scorecard. So the slide, just so I marked everyone around the slide is 11. That's where I am. I hope you are too out there. Okay. So continuing on that slide, our first class action was one in New Zealand, and it was for Hino. That's a real breakthrough. We have 6 in principal settlement agreements reached for over $219 million. And so that's going to be an inflow. We have greater focused on investigation to filing velocity. So moving the matters through more quickly. We have tighter portfolio governance. Craig's Office of the Head of Class Actions has been supplemented by some more specialist staff, especially looking at prospects to investigation, investigation to filing matters, and that's to really drive domestic class actions. So we want to make sure that, that continues to be driving along with PI as the engine of our Australian business. And then when we move to the -- what we're doing with international mass torts that will help us out there credibly. Okay. So let's move to Slide 12, and when I talked about just before the upside opportunity in the deep pipeline, we've got 48 matters open. I've talked about pipeline momentum. We've talked about the adjusted revenue and we have talked about portfolio funding in the half. Now portfolio funding is our term for looking internationally for funding opportunities. We were successful when we did report this in the half of securing a $40 million funding arrangement with an international funder to drive our talc Australia matter forward, and that's been actively worked on at the moment. So with portfolio funding, we are talking to a number of funders who we'll look at matters that we have on hand and will help us with additional funding from different and separate sources to actually really drive our business. What we're showing here is that we have a deep pipeline, building to flow those matters into that type of funding regime. And also I'd like to point out that we are diversified across a number of class action sectors. So we're not just dependent on 1 or 2. You can see those on the right side, a little chart there, we're across environmental, medical, very good work in First Nations and social justice. That's a real key, heartfelt area for us, consumer, employment, shareholder, a lot of people in shareholders. So we -- and financial services, so are we in that area. But our diversification helps us manage our concentration risk. So let's move to the next slide, #13. Talked earlier about IMT, or international mass torts. And this is where we sit at the moment. We have a U.S.A. hub. It's a hub-and-spoke model. The hub is in the U.S.A. it's in New York and that hub finds works with, defines or funding, funding for and then exports, that's our term again to this -- to our it's International spokes. It's International spokes, if you're sitting from a U.S. hub perspective would be to Australia. We already have a very mature well-functioning class actions business, so as well as domestic class actions, we will be looking and are looking at internationally funded spoke class action. That's our terminology. Just thought I'd explain it a little bit more. The same with New Zealand, we're already in New Zealand, and then we have developed a class actions business there and it was thrilling to get our first successful resolution there with Hino. And then our Asia spoke. Asia spoke is Thailand. We have an office in Thailand. We have employees in Thailand, and we are working up cases in investigation in Thailand. There are plans to make this even more broad in years to come, and we'll tell you about that, and we'll be able to perhaps share some other news in the half about that. Just repeating that Simon Morrison has moved from Managing Director to Executive Director and the Head of IMT International Mass Torts. So he is running that for the business, Shine Justice, and there is no stopping Simon. Okay. Moving to the next slide. It's about strategy and growth, and everybody is talking about AI. We prefer to talk about emerging technology in that AI is a subset, but emerging technologies are larger than, bigger than AI. But it all is important that organizations get a grip on all of this. So our road map, which we shared previously, was a 3-year road map, we said in FY '25 that we're going to set the foundations and to figure out what was going on, everybody did in the world actually, from a corporate perspective. We created the emerging technology center so that activity could happen all around business, but we had clear sight on what that activity was so that we can then bring it into a channel, which allows us to determine how we might replicate or how we might fail fast, typical stuff. So in that year, we put the infrastructure in place and there was an investment to do so. The years that we're talking about now, FY '26, we informed to you all that it was a proof of concept year that we weren't going to go big solution, huge actually in mainstream systems, et cetera, et cetera, that claim the solve the world with their AI plug-ins. We said we were going to look at proof of concept throughout our business, throughout the jurisdictions, throughout the matter types and throughout the supporting business services inputs, and that is what we've done. We have noticed improved productivity. We have insights and we have our operational efficiency, but that is yet to come through in the results. That will be through '27 and '28. '27 is the acceleration year where we will get sustainable productivity and service improvements that we can quantify and the maturity of '28, it's embedded. It's done. We will continue to evolve as -- as the industry does, but we have got total grasp of it. So the other half of the page that talks about where we are now, is really giving some color to the FY '26 year. We've got the emerging technology center. We have put in AI, guardrails and a governance structure, which is incredibly important. We are looking at agentic and automation platforms and we have created our own agents where they impact our business, and we're very happy with where we are in this regard. Our client intake platform continues to be Salesforce, and we are utilizing Agentforce, the extension, the AI and other automation extension of Salesforce and those linking to other systems and other agents and connectors in the business. We are getting our data in very good order, and it's going into a data, foundational data platform, we're a Microsoft shop, we are using Microsoft Fabric. And that project is very well advanced. So we have good clean data so we can get good clean reporting at the desktop happening as we accelerate in FY 27. And then just to mention our people platform that is not agentic, but it is a new platform that will help fuel all of these activities. Hence, we call it the emerging technology center because it has these input skins. Okay, Marc. We're up to 16, if I got the slide number right. And over to you. .

Thank you, Carolyn. So Slide 16 is just a very high-level summary of the balance sheet position. As we said at 30 June. So the net asset position $260 million, sort of down on last year. Obviously, that takes into account the legacy issue we spoke about earlier, Cash and cash equivalents down for the year from $18.1 million to $12.5 million, again, probably an investment in the emerging technologies and some other IT platforms there, as well as the investment in IMT matters as well as some cost actions, which will come to realized as the cash in '27 and beyond. Net debt increased slightly on FY '25. That I think that net debt should hopefully reduce as we go forward. This increases to due in some part to the movement of a final tranche of disbursement funding, loan disbursements that we are carrying into our core debt stack. So even though it's increased the debt, there's definitely an interest saving on the back end of that. And obviously, network in progress. I spoke about it earlier, pretty flat on where we're at. But the focus for '27 is to definitely, as much as we love file intake, which we need to build some of that off as well. So looking forward to that through FY '27. Just a couple of other comments there. The group has $119.7 million of financing facilities available. We have got headroom at the moment of 44 -- sorry, $41.4 million and our majority of the facilities running to March '28. So there's still plenty of time before we need to renew those. Importantly, the group complied with all our banking covenants during the year. Franking Credit are still available, which is good that supports the continuation of franked dividends. As you have seen, the company has declared a dividend for the year. Net debt, as said, increase a bit. But hopefully, as we increase the work in progress being realized as fees, we'll start to actually produce that a little bit going forward. On Slide 17, I just spoke around the dividend of $0.025 fully franked final dividend being declared for the year, payable in October. So again, I think that's representative of the Board's commitment to return value where we can to shareholders. Takes the total dividend for the FY '26 year to $0.04 per share. So you mentioned the franking credits earlier and in total, thus far, the company has bought back 3.87 million of shares. That was in the scheme up to September '25. We didn't actually acquire any in the scheme that was started in October '25, just due to the balancing of the capital requirements with some of the investment we've done during the year. The capital allocation framework there, I just call out the growth investments. So we have invested in the emerging technology center, international expansion. We did buy some personal injury files, which we're looking to continue to do more of. But as I said, it's that balance against growth of the business versus the returns to shareholders. With that, I'll hand back to Carolyn to do the strategic and growth and the outlook.

All right. Let's go straight to FY '27 outlook in the orange box. We are continuing to have momentum in our personal injury segment. We are going to build on our improved legal work per fee earner, we are going to look at containing our write-offs just in the way that we look at how we manage the conduct of the matter, the files as it goes through. We've got more disciplined focus on that. And maybe as -- it has always focused, but this has been really a point for us to concentrate on and we have. We've done very well in fees billed to the end of previous year, that will continue. And we obviously sort out the kind of our resolution quantum is going to continue to be very, very strong. We'll continue to pursue acquisitions as both Marc and I have alluded to. And they must align that to a strategic plan. It's very easy to buy files some businesses that don't add value to the extent that we want them to, but we are going to have a stronger focus on that in '27. Class actions is focusing or will focus on filing for matters and increasing investigation to filing velocity, that we've got the processes, the people, the systems now in place better to do that. We -- in our domestic class actions continue to see it as the engine with PI to being the sort of the business sits top that as we then focus on our international mass torts strategy so that we can get Simon the time and the space to remake great leaps and bounds in that area. Our international mass torts hub, remember that's in the U.S.A., in New York, is going to continue to source and develop matters for Australia and New Zealand and Thailand. And there will be other jurisdictions that we're looking at in '27. I must mentioned, we also have a personal injury law firm in the state of Arizona that allows an alternative business structure to be set up, ABS and we -- even though we're a law firm, we're considered to be an ABS in that state. And so we have an active PI business that has now been stood up. It has staff, it has files, it has outcomes. It has -- it is a good little business. And that is managed, if you like, in its book of our PI activity by Lisa Flynn as CLO, but of course, within the American jurisdiction. When I say managed, I should say, administratively support. It is managed totally independent, of course, in the U.S. but we can use our systems to help support administrative. So we delivered growth in '26. We did have that one-off transaction that has been talked about quite a few times. That shows how well we did underpinning in '26. And we are expecting to see growth again in both personal injury and class actions and in profitability, alongside an increase in group cash flow. So that is where we end up. I must finish by talking about, it has been our 50th year this year. Kept it till last, Shine 50 is the banner in which we operate that whole year, this whole year, calendar '26 of operations. We've had external outreach. We've had stakeholder and staff interaction. We had tours around regional and rural and remote areas with a little car that we've kitted out called Shine Mobile. It might sound a bit -- sort of bit funny and interesting to say this in a presentation to the market, but we cannot let our 50th year go by, we started in 1976 in Toowoomba, from humble beginnings, through the East Coast through Australia and now internationally in this -- our calendar and financial '26 year. And so we're very proud of that as a company and a firm. So with that in mind, we will look at taking questions.

[Operator Instructions] Your first question comes from Tom Tweedie with Moelis Australia.

Well done on the result. Just a couple for me. Just on the outlook. You've obviously called out an expected increase in group cash flow. I just wanted to narrow down on PI just given it's a little bit more predictable. Should we be thinking that cash flow sort of grows with segment profitability? Or is emerging technology going to mean a faster conversion and maybe we see a step change in the cash conversion versus segment profitability there within PI?

Thanks, Tom. With -- on the PI side, obviously, there's a few competing priorities, for want of a better word, at the moment, being we want to grow the business. So that file acquisition opportunity that we want to really push harder on and obviously, consume cash if we can identify files that we want to acquire. But generally, yes, growth in the PI should lead to higher fees build and more cash in the door. I guess we've just got to -- some of the work we've done to sharpened focus and execution. These matters are a long tail of matters. We're also looking at velocity, trying to get velocity in. So matters closing up earlier. So some of the actions we're taking now will show through, maybe not all in this FY '27, but definitely FY '28 and beyond, you'll see that benefit of that from a cash perspective. From the emerging technology side of things, we have not banked or baked any upside from a revenue/cash perspective into our books for FY '27. Referring back to the road map, yes, we sort of started FY '25, developed the emerging technology center in FY '26, and have some really good things in our minds and also starting to actually become reality. We'll try and push those out in FY '27. And again, FY '28 should start to see some benefit from that, but it won't happen in FY '27. But at a point in time, I think most companies worldwide that are dealing with emerging technology and the commercial reality of what the output of that are at a point in time, it has to be either efficiency savings, which means we can push more file through or other benefits that come from it.

Second question is just on class actions. Again, on the cash conversion. You called out the $40 million of funding from an external fund. I'm just trying to get a sense of sort of the cash benefits of the external funding from that $40 million for FY '27. Is that expected to materially drive operating cash conversion just because you're not carrying the matter yourselves? And then secondly, with the pipeline of other matters you want to move into an external funding mechanism. Can you just step us through sort of benefits across the business there from a cash perspective that you expect?

Yes. I mean I won't give you dollar values, but just theoretically, which is what we're actually seeing come through. So the $40 million we announced back in February, of that $40 million dropped to our bank account and off you go. So we're drawing down on that amount each month as we go through the matter. The matter, obviously, again, is expected to last a couple of years. So that funding will last along with that same time frame as well. Class actions in general, we're still carrying some old matters where Shine had fully funded or Shine had partially funded. And in some cases, we're still funding those ourselves to get to the settlement of the matter. But every new matter that we're bringing online, the ideal scenario for Shine is to, if it's one we want funded, go out and get funding for it. We've obviously got the carry to be normally keep on all those class actions that we get returned to us at the end of the matter. But the idea is that we get all funded matters moving forward. So we're still in that sort of a 50-50 bucket where we've got old matters we're trying to resolve and finalize and get our investment bank, which could be sizable for those, as well as getting that fluid monthly, quarterly cash flow coming in from new matters that we're running and that are funded. So it's a bit of both. So you'll see an uptick in '27 from the class actions fees because we're moving to that. You'll also hopefully see some settlements coming, which gives us a little bit of an uplift in cash because we're getting the WIP back from the previous 2 years or 3 years. So you're still in that sort of unevenness coming through. But each year moving forward now, it should flatten a bit, a little more, which I know will make me happy knowing that we've got all funded matters that are fairly stable. And then at the end, you still get these uplifts where you're successful on either a GCO basis or there's an uplift component.

[Operator Instructions] Your next question comes from Peter Drew with Carter Bar Securities.

Just a question on the outlook. You've guided to revenue growth across PI and class actions. I'm just wondering, PI grew at 8%, fairly consistently through FY '26. Is that sort of high single-digit level achievable in FY '27?

Yes, we think so. As I said, there's a number of parts to the PI strategy being our growth branches and footprint increases that we've done. We've actually step back away from some areas which weren't performing that well for us. And obviously, the big part is the file acquisitions and how heavily we can get into that. So look, I think there's still growth there for sure, around that same level, comfortable with, but it will depend on some of those other factors to whether or not we can push it up higher in '27, but it will get there eventually. But to go and acquire files is not a process you can do in a month or 2 months. It sometimes takes a bit longer, but it just depends on what opportunities we can capitalize on and when.