Shopify Inc. (SHOP) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. So we'll get kicked off here. Thank you, everyone, for joining us. My name is Keith Weiss. I run the U.S. software equity research franchise here at Morgan Stanley. And very pleased to have with us from Shopify, CFO, Jeff Hoffmeister. Jeff, thank you for joining us.

Great. Of course. Good to see you, Keith.

So super exciting time at Shopify. I feel like it's always super exciting time at Shopify. A lot of stuff to talk about. I'm actually going to start at the bottom of my question list and work away. I want to touch on some of the newer innovations for 2 reasons. One, it's very interesting what Shopify is doing when it comes to Agentic Commerce and this is a new potential kind of channel and a new theme that we've been talking about. But it's also -- I think it really exemplifies Shopify and what makes Shopify special is just how far ahead of the marketplace you guys have been in getting out technologies to help support your merchants for the potential for Agentic Commerce, but also to create new rails for the Agentic Commerce providers to actually be able to execute on this.

So maybe to start out with, take my statement and make it into a question. What's the kind of current thinking on Agentic Commerce for Shopify in terms of where are we with sort of pushing this out? What are the technologies that are going to be important? And what's Shopify's role going to be in Agentic Commerce?

There's a lot in there. So we are definitely -- as you alluded to in your initial statement before the question, we've tried very hard to make sure we're building the technologies, the rails to make this happen and help accelerate what we think will happen in Agentic Commerce. We are definitely bullish on Agentic Commerce. There's people that are kind of bulls and bears in terms of how much this is going to expand consumer spend, how much this is going to change the dynamics of spend, and I'll come to that in a second. But we've tried very hard. As you know, our catalog product is something that we set in motion more than 2 years ago. Some of the stuff that we're doing around sidekick, right? Tobi talked about that more than 2 years ago. So a lot of these are things that we felt a little bit kind of the analogy, if you build, that they will come. We've tried very hard to make sure that we help the merchants by giving everything they need in terms of the tools, the technologies to be at the forefront of this. That's what we're trying to build. And we'll spend some more time -- I'll spend some more time on catalog and and all that. But effectively, what we're doing is we're starting to see now really over the past couple of quarters, the fruits of some of that labor of what we've been building. Agentic Commerce has a lot of different definitions for various people in terms of how seamless it's going to be. Is it just kind of, for example, giving a budget to an LLM and letting them spend? Or do I -- it's a little like adoption of any technology. We'll have some early adopters and some people are more comfortable like doing a lot of shopping online. Some people want to do more in person. So with the various changes that we'll see and kind of the pace of adoption, our technologies are helping the merchants, right? There's a lot of people who are trying to spend technology, do advancements, do things to help on the consumer side, right, what the LLMs are doing to try to help all of us as shoppers. We're really the only ones we think that are doing something really significant in terms of building technology to help the merchants. I think one of the things that you'll see in terms of how the LLM searches play out, as you know, generally, they're longer queries. They're more sophistic. You do a Google search, it's usually fewer words than what we're seeing, for example, like the old Google search versus the Gemini search, right? Usually, it's like 5 words versus 25 words or some kind of longer, more complex, more thoughtful question, which is coming out of the LLMs. And so therefore, the opportunity for us is to help put our merchants in a good position where they're the source of the answer when someone says, all right, I want A, B and C in terms of what I'm shopping for. And we're still, having said that, in the very early days of this. And we see this to a certain extent, too, just in terms of how we're interacting with all the LLMs, some of our knowledge around commerce and how we're helping them think about, to a certain extent, their business models and evolve what they're trying to do, and we're working in partnership with all of them to do that. There's a lot there we can go on.

So let's click into a couple of those components. One, in terms of helping the merchants, product catalog enables the merchant to expose more of the -- not just the products, but about the products. So they can better match the query being put into the prompt engine into what the merchants actually bring to the equation. Where are we in terms of the rollout of that solution, the adoption of that solution? What are you seeing in the customer base thus far in terms of their affinity to participate, if you will?

Yes. Yes. Well, catalog is a huge advantage for merchants because essentially, it becomes a definitive source of truth on your products. And one of the things that we're seeing across all the LLMs, and I give them credit for this, is they're trying to make sure that they have the best, most accurate, most fact-based, most authoritative answer when we type in our questions. And so if we can, therefore, on the back end, be the so-called back end on the merchant side, if we can be the authoritative source of truth in everything they're doing, then it's very natural that all the LLMs are going to want to work with us in terms of us helping them give the best answer possible to the people that are on their websites doing the searches. And so catalog has been -- again, it's something we've had in place for a while, I think of it essentially as kind of like the taxonomy, the definitive source of what's out there for products. And it's worked very well. And so as an LLM, if you're not pointing people towards catalog or if a merchant, if you're not using catalog, you're putting yourself at a disadvantage effectively.

Got it. And then more broadly, you talked about working with your merchants to understand how to position for Agentic Commerce. You also said that you think this is a big positive. You're bullish on Agentic Commerce. There is a bear case, though, that unlike traditional search or SEO, SEO sent the consumer to the merchant's website and everything was transacted on the merchant's website. Part of the reason you paid so much for SEO is because then you have that consumer relationship on a go-forward basis. Does that sustain in Agentic Commerce, right? The risk is the agent is transacting on behalf of the consumer. The consumer is never on your website and the consumer never has an affinity for your brand. You don't get that repeat buying behavior that the merchants are trying to facilitate. So how do you position in Agentic Commerce against that potential bear case that they're losing the connection to their end customer?

Well, I think, again, it's still early days, but we're actually seeing in a lot of -- whether you start with OpenAI, you're still probably going to the merchant's website. Some people -- some consumers will go straight to the merchant's website. Maybe they find the brand as they do a search on Gemini or ChatGPT or whatever. And as you know, a lot of times, the search results come back a little bit differently before, as you point out, for example, you would do a search on Google, you'd get a bunch of links. And while the answer now may look different because you'll do a search on Gemini and you'll get a box that will give you 2, 3 paragraphs in terms of this is what we think the answer is, some pros and cons and things to think about and maybe there's a link to an article or a blog and the merchant's website is listed in that article or the blog. So the way that they need to -- I agree with you, the way they think about SEO needs to evolve and is evolving. But I don't -- from our vantage point right now, I don't see a fundamental shift in terms of people still going to the merchant's website and the merchants still interacting with that consumer, building that relationship, building that brand. I think brands as much as anything will be even more important in the next world of kind of where we see Agentic Commerce play out. And I also think it's actually going to help some of our small and medium-sized brands, partly because, again, before in the old world, sometimes the advertising budget of some of the brands would impact how you are discovered. Now if you're asking an LLM a very thoughtful, again, maybe longer complex question, you're more likely to discover some brands that maybe had flown underneath your radar. And so maybe you historically had kind of relied on some paid advertising links to find, right, so I want to buy a new pair of dress shoes. And so I'm going to find it through some of the traditional answers. Now maybe you're going to find, I don't know, maybe there's a small European manufacturer that makes a phenomenal product that you otherwise would not have found. So I think through catalog and through Agentic Commerce, I think some of the small and medium merchants actually will be better off.

What about the other side of the equation? Because you guys have also rolled out universal card and checkout kit.

Yes.

And ultimately, OpenAI doesn't want to send you to the website. OpenAI wants to transact that business themselves and be able to take the fee associated with it. They want to take their 4% to 8% against whatever that transaction is, and you're enabling them to do it within the Agentic Commerce experience. Does that consumer ever make it to the website? Did they ever make it to the -- to understand the brand, understand the merchant that's your customer?

Yes. I think they still will. And I think the other thing to my comment about being in the early stages of all this, part of it is just all the business models to a certain extent, are still evolving as it relates to consumer Agentic Commerce because just all the CEOs you know, like Microsoft is going to think about this slightly different than Google, which is going to think about this slightly different from OpenAI, kind of, et cetera, kind of go down the list. They all have very different business models, cash balances, approaches to commerce. And I think that's going to play out. And again, we're still in the very early stages of this. I think that's going to play out in terms of how they all think about how much they do on platform versus sending to the merchant's website.

Got it. Broadening out the conversation a little bit, we recently wrote a report about Agentic Commerce, along with our Internet analyst, Brian Nowak, and we specifically dove into Shopify and your role there. And one of the conclusions that we kind of led with was Shopify tends to do well in periods of disruption, right? Because of the fast pace of innovation, because you tend to be technology leaders, when we have disruptions in these core markets, there's even more of an affinity to go with Shopify. That's what we thought of as the bull case for Shopify. Overall, Agentic Commerce probably leads to more e-commerce penetration. I mean you guys get a larger share of that e-commerce penetration during the disruption. So the question is like, one, do you kind of agree with that underlying premise? And when you say you're bullish about Agentic Commerce, is it in that same dynamic of that just there's going to be more e-commerce being done?

Yes. No, I would agree with all that. I think there are some people that believe -- and again, it's also too early to tell on this, that Agentic Commerce will make transactions, make shopping easier. So it actually will expand the pie as it relates to consumer spend. I don't -- we don't have a whole lot of data to suggest that. There is a possibility that the easier it is to get something done, the more that it will happen and that there may be an expansion of consumer spend. For the moment, let's assume the consumer spend at a certain level is going to be consistent. And so then it's just a little bit of a mix shift in terms of where does it come from. And if more of that, as you know, kind of given any given country, geography, roughly 20% of commerce is online versus 80% that is off-line. And you've seen -- I know you know well, the kind of the multiyear trend of the percentage of commerce, which is online and continues to shift year in, year out. If there's an inflection in that curve and more commerce happens online, that plays right into our strengths, right? We have obviously a very good point-of-sale off-line solution. Online commerce has been our historical heritage, right? So -- and I also agree with your premise in terms of technology shifts, that also really plays into our strengths because we have -- across the board, we've always led with technology. We've always led with putting more in the core platform, and we significantly differentiated ourselves and maybe there's some more legacy platforms out there, especially on the enterprise side. So I think this all plays to some very strong tailwinds for us.

Got it. Got it. I want to shift gears and dig into the core business. Results have been very strong. In the most recent earnings call, you talked about strength in merchant adds, right? It's the holiday season. If you want to give me a Christmas gift, merchant count would be a great Christmas gift. I would love to see that number.

There you go. Put it on the list.

Absent that, maybe you could give us some color.

Yes.

When you're talking about strength in merchant adds across geographies, across brands, could you give us any kind of color on the sort of the magnitude or kind of what's driving that strength in merchant adds?

Well, I think our merchant acquisition engine, our top of the funnel overall has been very good. As you know, we've -- the platform itself is very, very powerful in terms of getting more people to transact on the platform. The brand recognition of Shop Pay is drawing more and more from enterprises to the smallest kind of one-person entrepreneur start-ups. It's been really powerful for us in terms of getting more people on the platform. The marketing strategy, we've talked about this a little bit in Europe in terms of how I think we've done a very good job here in terms of getting some products out there, get the product market fit and then have marketing support it. And I think our marketing strategy has been very effective. I know on some of the MRR numbers because of the change in paid trials that it makes that a little noisy. But the paid trials have worked very well. Part of what you sometimes see with entrepreneurs is they're starting the business while they're also keeping their day job. And so they're trying to kind of work during the day and do the entrepreneurship thing at night or on weekends. And to the extent that we can give them more time on the platform, 3 months, for example, free to get on there and kind of really understand the power of the platform, get some of the sales, get up and running and get really familiar with that in addition to what Sidekick and everything we're doing on Agentic Commerce, it just really helps the merchant be more successful. And so not surprisingly, and you also know from -- especially from COVID, there's just an uptick and it stayed at this level, an uptick in the number of new businesses that are being started across the globe. All of those things are helping us get more merchants. So while you look at the MRR and it, again, is noisy, if -- when I look at kind of the pace of merchants that we're seeing, you get a little bit of a sense of this from MRR, but the pace of merchant additions we're seeing on the low end as well as we're seeing on the enterprise, it's very solid. And I guess the other thing I would have you triangulate on is when I talk about the GMV growth in Europe, when I talk about -- and I say this less explicitly when I talk about the U.S. or Canada, when I talk about the growth, I'm usually saying it's kind of half same-store sales and half new merchant acquisition. And so if half of that is coming from merchants that we've added in the last year, then obviously, there's a lot to be said for that. As you know, one single merchant add on the enterprise side can have the equivalent amount of revenue as many SMBs, but we're growing across the board. I also on the last earnings call, talked about the strength across the different GMV bands. I also talked a little bit about the strength of the different cohorts. The cohorts that we've seen -- there's one of the, I think, often underappreciated elements of our business, and I kind of alluded to it on the last earnings call, is that the cohorts, when you look at -- and it's in our investor deck, if you look at the Q1 '25 cohort and how that's grown over time, it's been excellent. And right -- in the investor deck on the very next slide, I have one that shows the cohorts for Q1 of all the year since 2015, and they all have grown very consistently steady and up and to the right. And the only 2 that are a little bit outliers and slightly below the trend line perspective for 2020 and 2021 for obvious reasons as it related to COVID. The cohorts have been very consistent on a multiyear basis. They continue to grow. And so when you look at our revenue this year or any given year, it's a stack of all those cohorts, and that's only going to be happening if we continue to add a lot of great merchants to the platform. So we feel really good about the merchant acquisition engine right now. And I know you -- unfortunately to triangulate a little bit on the numbers, but it's -- the proof is there in terms of how we think about it.

Yes. So it sounds like the marketing spend that we all gave you such a hard time about at the beginning of last year is actually, as you predicted, is going to yield gains a year later, like as those become merchants. You mentioned the sort of push up market into the enterprise. And I want to dig into that because the nature of those enterprise customers, while the potential is to be much larger, they don't come on the same way as the small businesses in that they're not going to push the entirety of their business into Shopify all in one go. So can you talk to us about where we are in terms of -- it feels like we got product market fit, and we've got the affinity for merchants and the large enterprises started to come on. Where are we in terms of kind of ramping them up? And it feels like it's going to be a stacking function over time.

No, I think that's exactly right. I think we all can do studies around the size of the opportunity in all the different merchants out there kind of by vertical, by geography, however you want to slice it. I think one of the things that sometimes lost about kind of appreciation for enterprise business was on our earnings calls, we, Harley usually is the one that's talking about, hey, here's a bunch of merchants that we won. And then we'll talk about here's when we now have this large enterprise kind of up and running on the platform kind of selling via our platform. That -- we don't always get into excruciating detail around, hey, maybe there are -- most of them -- the bigger the enterprise, the bigger the brand, the more likely they are to have a bunch of commerce stacks. They may have done it intentionally because they built the commerce stack for, hey, I have a luxury item, kind of high-price, low-volume brand that has a different commerce stack than the one that's the inverse, which is higher volume, lower price. Maybe I did a bunch of acquisitions. Maybe I just kind of started building it. I have a little bit of kludgy stuff, and this is part of the stuff, which is helping us as a tailwind for us to win more. But a lot of times, they just have a bunch of different stacks. So maybe we take part of the stack, maybe we start with just payments, maybe we take payments, point-of-sale, installments, tax, a bunch of things. But most of the time, we're taking just a piece, either we're taking one full stack and then we're going to take more stacks over time or we're just taking maybe a horizontal slice of the stacks. And so the opportunity for us exactly, as you said, is a continued stacking of, in a good way, a multiyear steady trend in terms of just doing more and more with each of these merchants. And one of the things that's coming out of Agentic Commerce is, again, the kind of the necessities of the quality of the technology and the platform, the table stakes for that are much higher than they've ever been. And so for our "competitors" and we don't have really many in the large enterprise space, if they're not spending as much on investing in the technology of the platform and we are, we are clearly distancing ourselves. I don't think we're to the point yet, Keith, where we've got -- in fact, I know we're not to the point where merchants are coming to us and saying, like Agentic Commerce is the sole thing that's causing my decision, but it's clearly in the road map. Like whereas 6 months ago, it wasn't as much in the conversations. Now people are like, all right, so I'm choosing you for these 4, 5, 6 reasons and Agentic Commerce is one. And help me understand over the next 2 quarters, 2 years, et cetera, what are you doing and what are you building? And we clearly stand out in that regard.

Got it. So you've talked about -- and correct me if I'm wrong, winning roughly 4 out of 10 enterprise deals, which is an impressive win rate and also a very honest one. Most people tell us they win 90% of the deals, which not everyone could win 90% of the deals. So when you're not winning the deals, when they're going with either sort of sticking with the incumbent or one of the larger competitors, what's the pushback on the Shopify platform? And what do you guys do to consistently improve that win rate over time?

Yes. The pushback for us is never a technology or the quality of the platform. We do not intend to be the cheapest. But at the same token, we have a lot of pricing power here if we wanted. But there are -- in some situations, people -- some of our competitors will be -- and there's one in particular, will be a little bit more aggressive on price. And if they already have -- if the merchant already has a bunch of other software from one of our competing platforms, it's easy for them to bundle. I mean it's logical because the vendor can bundle and still get a good deal and the merchant feels like, hey, I've got a bunch of data in this platform already. I can integrate it with what I have and I can get a bundle. I totally get it. That makes total sense. But when you do kind of head-to-head standup competition on tech, like we do extremely well in that category. And yes, sometimes they choose to stay with their existing platform because they've probably invested a lot in getting it there. As you know, mostly on the enterprise side, it's the custom in-house built solutions that we're going up against. And I think we're to the point I think Agentic Commerce is going to accelerate this. I think we're at the point where we're offering something that they've never had before, where they feel like the quality of the external software is better than what they can build internally. And at Shopify, you've got all these engineers that are focused 24/7 on building the best commerce platform on the planet. No one else can say that.

So it really aligns to sort of my thesis of periods of disruption act as an accelerant of market share gains for Shopify.

Yes. Without calling out specific market share numbers, I think it's going to help. And I think if you -- even if you try -- we talk about being 12% of e-commerce in the U.S. But even if you look at some of the Black Friday, Cyber Monday statistics and kind of what we talked about in terms of growth rates, I mean most specifically in the U.S. called out the U.S. growth rate. We've talked about the European growth rate of 34%, the Asian growth rate of 31%, like compare that to what you're seeing across the board. And you have to assume that we're continuing -- I mean, we've talked about this in almost every one of the last 3 or 4 earnings calls in terms of the multiple of the e-commerce growth rates we are in any given country or region, we can clearly continue to take share.

Great. Got it. So when we're talking about Shopify, and we're running short on time, so I'm going to fast that a little. We typically talk about sort of there's the GMV part of the equation, and you guys have been doing an extraordinary job of taking market share, growing that GMV base. Merchant ads is a part of it, uplift into enterprise is a part of it. The offline retail has been additive to it. The international expansion has added to it. All of this is working really well to grow the base of GMV, right? And that helps MRR. The other side of the equation is the take rate against that GMV, right? And the most consistent question that I get about Shopify, I would love to hear your answer, is payments penetration, right? Today, we're about 65% payments penetration. So your payments rails are being used in 65% of the value being transacted through your platform. Where could that go over time? Like what's a theoretical maximum in terms of payment penetration?

Well, I've never given a theoretical maximum. Obviously, there's always some stuff that's going to be done in cash and other forms. But that payments penetration rate is obviously a blended number in the U.S. and in Canada, but most notably in the U.S., it's much higher. And I think it can go higher in the U.S. And obviously, in Europe, it's lower, partly as a function of just -- as you know, we just introduced Shopify Payments in kind of the remaining countries in Europe where we didn't have it, even ignoring kind of all the other geographies for the moment, getting those payment penetration levels up, obviously start with us making payments available in each of those geographies. Shop Pay is a strong, as you know, strong consumer brand that continues to help not only get merchant adoption, but also pull up the penetration levels. So -- and I think in Europe, part of it is going to be integration of more local payment methods and other things that just continue to give us the tailwinds to drive that penetration level up. So people have for a long time, wondered how high can it go, and we've been asked that question probably for a couple of years now, and it continues to march up. So as you know, this past year, because of the shop -- sorry, of the PayPal integration, we had a little bit of a bump just kind of -- just on an optics level for payments penetration. But if you look at a multiyear trend, I don't see a change in that trend line. this point, Keith, in terms of what we're continuing to do, I just kind of add to the payments penetration level. And you'll see more from us in terms of rollout of payments. Again, we pretty much have Europe covered now. The last -- a few quarters ago, when I talked about this on the earnings call, I talked about the 16 countries where we introduced payments, 15 were in Europe, the other was Mexico. You should assume that we'll do more in Central and South America. I think we have -- by geography, I think we have significant opportunity in Central South America. I think we have a lot of opportunity in the Middle East. I think we have a lot of opportunity in Southeast Asia, et cetera.

Got it. Got it. So the second most often question that I get is what's next on take rate. Payment has been the vast majority of sort of the take rate overall. Where should we be looking in terms of what could emerge as another material kind of take rate driver for Shopify going forward?

I think there's -- I'd point you to 3 things. Number one, I think some of the products that we've had out for a couple of years now are continuing to ramp some of the success we've had with tax, with installments, with some of the things we're doing on the FX side, those are all going to continue to add. I think the number two on the advertising side, which we won't have a ton of time to talk about, but we're doing more and we have additions coming up, some kind of additions announcements today and tomorrow, you'll see on the advertising side in terms of what we're doing. I think we, in particular, have a real opportunity in what I would call 2P, which is where one merchant will advertise on the website of another merchant and how do we help them do that? I think there's significant opportunity there. And I think just in general, when you think about kind of the suite of things that we're doing, there's a bunch of little other products that in the aggregate will add up to continued advancements on the attach rate. I don't look at attach rate and say this is a specific target I have in mind. As you know, as we -- for the last couple of years, we've grown kind of 10 to 15 basis points a year. This year, that's not the case because of the headwind that we have because of the paid trials and subscription solutions. Basically, this year, we've seen roughly an equivalent offset between payments penetration and advances on the Merchant Solutions side being offset by some of the headwinds on the subscription solutions side. That's temporary. Next year, we'll get back to growth in kind of more traditional lines in terms of how I think about subscription solutions. So without a specific pace I'm going to give you, continued up and to the right in terms of what we're seeing.

Right. In that kind of rubric, you do a lot enabling your merchants to set up a commerce site to be able to transact commerce. And increasingly, it feels like you're looking to help them sort of attract consumers to the overall platform. One of a big part of attracting consumers to the platform is marketing, right? Marketing, to me, feels like something that you guys have partnered a lot more with than gone organically, but you do have organic efforts when it comes to marketing. How should we think about that opportunity within Shopify? Is that something that you could build out further become more of a marketing front office vendor for their customers -- for your merchants?

Yes. I think I don't see us, for example, doing the full marketing software suite that you see out of others. I do think that I know that we look at marketing kind of getting of consumers as an obvious pain point for businesses. And the smaller you are, the more help you need there. So we talked about the 2P advertising. We are familiar with campaigns and audiences and all that. And we've done some very interesting things internally in terms of how we use technology to do some of our own marketing. And then how do we then take some of that and port it to the platforms that we're offering merchants. So you will see more of that from us. Do I see us building some big kind of marketing software suite that you would see from some of the others out there that you cover? No, I don't see us doing that.

Okay. So it's going to be more focused, more specific type of marketing aligned to kind of where your infrastructure strength lies. We got about a minute left. I want to turn to margins and profitability. On one side of the equation, gross margins have seen some headwinds. Some of that comes from the international mix, some of it from enterprise payments. We're all worried about gross margin impacts from more sort of GPU-based computing. How should we fundamentally think about the gross margin directionality going forward for Shopify?

Yes. Well, to your GPU point, obviously, we don't -- I mean, our CapEx spend is de minimis is probably the best word to use. But -- and I would say the vast, vast majority of that all goes into subscription solutions for us, which is basically providing the provision of the core platform to our merchants. And as you know, that has stayed -- and we've been doing this for a couple of years now in terms of building for Agentic Commerce. And that gross margin for Subscription Solutions has stayed kind of 80% plus. So even though we've been spending -- and we're going to naturally spend more on the core platform as we expand into new geographies and our merchants do higher transaction volumes. That's been the case for a while. So it's reflected in the margins you've seen from us for a while. So Subscription Solutions has been very stable. In Merchant Solutions, to your point, it's a mix of kind of enterprise and payments and everything that goes in there. As you know, we've had some headwinds this year, in particular. And as I kind of look to next year without giving any specific guidance, some of those temporary headwinds will lessen. But I go back to my comment before that in general, we think about gross margins as being neutral to slightly down in any given year. I don't -- I'm not going to guide you to say, Oh, I think it's going to turn around like Merchant Solutions, at least next year or 2 is going to kind of uplift in the positive.

Got it. And then finally, on the OpEx side of the equation. I think it was 2 years ago at the Analyst Day, you guys came out and said, Hey, listen, we're utilizing this technology really effectively. We have the factory, if you will, that's pumping out a lot of innovation. We don't need a lot more people. And you've executed to that. You've been able to grow the business remarkably well with no real headcount expansion. How durable is that? How long can you keep going without having to invest in humans, like in human capital and expand out more fundamentally that OpEx?

Well, we're really using the tool, as you alluded to, the internally built tools, and we don't use much third-party software because we feel like if we do that, then we're going to find ourselves in a position where we're getting limited versus some of the things that we could do if we built a solution, which is focused on what we want to accomplish. Without giving exact guidance on headcount number, I don't see us next year needing to increase headcount in any way that being an impedance to our growth rate and what we've been able to deliver. It's been over 2 years we've been at this headcount. As I look to next year, I think we can continue to be disciplined on headcount and continue to deliver on the top line. So I feel very good about what we've been able to accomplish.

Outstanding. Unfortunately, we are over time. But Jeff, thanks so much for joining us.

Thank you.