Sinch AB (publ) (SINCH) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone. Good evening and good afternoon. Welcome to the Final Session on Day 1 of the Goldman Sachs Digital Economy Technology Conference. We are delighted to have management from Sinch. Today, we have the CEO, Oscar Werner, with us today. So Oscar, thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for the interest and I'm honored to be the last presenter of the day.

But now by no means the least because I think this is a very interesting story we can -- around the business that we can talk about. So first of all, before we go into the Q&A, I just need to read a housekeeping disclosure and then we'll get straight into it. So I'd just like to remind everyone that this conversation is off the record and not intended for the media.

So with that, Oscar, you -- may, there's a lot of people on the call who are likely unfamiliar with Sinch, many who are familiar. So just to sort of level the ground, so to speak. It would be great if you could tell us a bit about the Sinch journey, the background and where you play and your offerings and a bit about the business, please?

I will do. So Sinch is a global leader in a very large market, it's basically us and Twilio being the largest companies in the CPaaS industry. This is a $60 billion market TAM round about give or take a little bit how you define it. And we are top 2 in this very large and very attractive market. We have a strong and diversified market position. We're strong in messaging, that is SMS messaging, WhatsApp messaging, WeChat, Telegram, all messaging, all mobile messaging channels, we're a global leader in that. We are a US leader in the voice market. We're the largest provider of phone calls to a call center and [ 1-800 numbers ] et cetera, et cetera, in the US. We are a global leader with the recent acquisition of Pathwire in the e-mail market and we are a global leader in the SMB market, basically the messaging, voice and e-mail, we sell to enterprise customers and developers. And then we take the same product and sell to the SMB or small and medium businesses, so via the acquisition of MessageMedia we have a strong leading position there. And we have an applications business on the SaaS business on top. So that's where we stand. We are profitable since our foundations in 2008 and were founded on $10,000 in share capital. We have never -- always been profitable since then, we have never needed one single dollar to fund our operations. So every single -- all money that we got from investments has always been from M&A. We've driven strong growth. 3.5 years ago we were 300 people and our gross profit was around about $80 million. Now we are around about 4,000 people and gross profit of $800 million and the revenue on a pro forma basis on SEK 2.5 billion. So I think that's a very strong growth story. Our growth has been M&A driven and organic and we really played both of these areas to always been able to drive growth to shareholders and combining the strong organic growth with the M&A [ leverage and ] I think has been a really strong recipe.

Great. So last week you had the FY '21 and fourth quarter results. So maybe could you quickly kind of run through what were the key highlights of the results for us please?

Yes, the key highlights of the results on the total level, organic and -- organic and M&A, we have really strong growth, 74%, 69% revenue and gross profit growth, 25% adjusted EBITDA growth. And really putting together a global leader in this industry basically. So we're very, very happy with the positioning, the amount of -- the new companies who are coming in and -- about a total growth that we've been able to drive. We basically doubled the company in Q4 of this year, so as you can imagine, that put quite a bit of strain on the people and on the organization, but we've taken an extremely strong position in this very large and attractive market. So that's number one. Number 2, as a summary, we had organic growth in Q4, which was lower than our historic average and now we're talking about the messaging business, which is around about 45% of our total business. Post this acquisitions, we have historically traded between 25% and 35% growth per quarter, quarter-on-quarter the last 10 quarters. In Q3 we had 20%. In Q4, we had reported 5%, but if we exclude one deal, which they say one-off, we would have been at 10% and that's lower than our historic growth rates. And we're obviously going to work very hard to drive that growth up. Now there are a couple of one-offs like I said, we had a strong comparison quarter, et cetera. But our job is, of course, always to drive strong organic growth and stronger company driven growth that's what we were focused on.

Great. And I think there was one other -- given obviously, as you said, the timing of the acquisitions, the amount of leverage that you had taken on the balance sheet. There was a lot of kind of on-the-day concerns, which caused a lot of share price volatility. I think it's very clear that from your standpoint, this is probably the market is over worrying on this. So our -- my understanding is that the kind of the -- you are still within what the Board level threshold is essentially around leverage. But I think in reality, that threshold level with your actual lenders is even higher than that. So could you just level set for us if that is the case? And then secondly, from the standpoint of your lenders, there's not major issues around leverage because, obviously, you're an acquisitive company. So you have to be also opportunistic. So could you just level set that for everyone, so just so it's clear before...

That is correct. Thanks for asking. No, we don't -- we really do not understand this worry out in the market. We don't understand where it's coming from. And the top line number is our balance sheet is very strong. We're generating very strong cash flow and we are below our leverage target. Our leverage target is 3.5x of our EBITDA. The covenants and the bank measures, if you do this on a pro forma basis on the bank loans, on a pro forma basis takes us to 2.9x. So we're below our targets and we don't disclose our covenants publicly, but we have significant headroom from the 2.9x up to the -- where the covenants are, so we feel very, very comfortable. We also have a very strong cash flow generation. The pro forma EBITDA announced would be SEK 3.3 billion. And we have historically had a very strong cash flow conversion reaching from [ 60% to 70% ] of the adjusted EBITDA. So we are deleveraging this company relatively quickly just with pure cash flow and we do not see why that would end. So we think we're very stable, very strong. With regards to the banks, they see the same. We just refinanced our debt at very good interest rates at the consortium of 10 banks, many of them very conservative banks, very good discussions with them, no issue and we have a very large interest in supporting our debt leverage from our strong cash flow position. So we feel very comfortable. We do not understand the discussion around covenants.

Okay. That's very clear. So as we start to focus back on the fundamentals and here you highlighted that kind of the Q4 gross profit growth was sort of below the sort of trend line growth of where you want to run the business, which is sort of in the 20s to sort of 30s. How should we think of the cadence in 2022 around that sort of growth? Is -- do you think Q4 represented sort of a trough? Or should we -- given there's still a bit more integration to be done or could there be kind of more back-end loaded year? So if you could just help us understand and what you think is the right kind of organic trajectory for the year, albeit even if it's more second half weighted?

Yes and so we don't give forward-looking projections, but I can reason around it. And I would rather reason around it in terms of the different business units because they all have a little bit of different growth profiles, all are profitable, so that's happy. So that's very good. On the messaging side, which has been the discussion, that is the organic, which we're talking about. We had a -- the market growth rates we have communicated, it's typically around 10% to 15% growth per year in that market. Historically, we have been growing faster than the market. We've been growing in the 20% to 30% range in the messaging space. Then we had 20% in Q2 and we had 10% if you exclude this one operated deal in Q1, That's kind of the facts, backward-looking facts if you will. And then you look at us, we don't see that the bottom has fallen out of the messaging market. We don't see that in a fundamental long-term change in the messaging market. We had 2 factors that was operator price changes in India and operator price changes plus macroeconomic headwinds in Brazil, which affected this quarter. But that's kind of the triangulation of the messaging business and what we had done historically. And I think if you triangulate around us, we can get pretty solid numbers.

Got it. So it's unlikely that put it this way, like you still expect positive growth like you did in sort of Q4, it's unlikely to decline. I mean I know you've got the timing effect on the operator pricing, which is -- I know you said it can take up to 4 to 6 quarters to push through?

I mean looking at the historic growth rates and what we have before and I mean we would definitely -- we have been able to drive solid growth rates for the past many, many quarters. So -- and we would obviously focus very, very hard on continuing to try to -- to try to drive growth of course, right? So and there's nothing fundamental in the market that has truly changed apart from this kind of India and Brazil market changes.

And while we're on that subject, perhaps could you sort of remind us that, are these fairly normal price increases or is there something different about these? And from a timing standpoint, perhaps could they take a little bit longer, but historically, I know you've been able to sort of push them through. And I think your mix has changed a bit through acquisitions a bit more towards some of these market. So it's maybe having a more adverse drag?

Yes, so the 2 of them, Brazil is little bit tougher than India. Brazil, it's a combination of operator pricing changes -- increases which were very large, combined with strong macroeconomic headwinds and that combination makes it a little bit tough. This is nothing new in this market. We had it many, many times before, like -- so at the basic, it's not something that worries us, it takes a couple of quarters then we get back to similar gross profit levels per message. Right now, in Brazil, with the macroeconomic headwinds, it's harder to pass this on. It's also a little bit -- it takes a little bit [indiscernible] between competitors are trying to position themselves, who gets the most volumes because this also drives turmoil event in the market. So Brazil, I'm a little bit more concerned about from a macro perspective. India is more of an isolated event, they increased due to something called DLT, blockchain technology to get away the gray routes in the traffic. So there it's more a normal traffic. It takes a couple of quarter and then the market coming back to the growth level.

Okay. That's very clear. So maybe let's take a step back again and talk about what you said upfront around kind of your offering and you kind of use the word omnichannel kind of full spectrum is a platform you're kind of looking to build. So obviously, in the pandemic, we saw a big sort of uptick in kind of the requirement from many of your customers who are kind of Internet companies to drive this end-to-end capability. There's obviously the narrative out there around an e-comm slowdown, but I think when I think structurally, whether there's a temporary or transitory e-comm slowdown, I mean the way that sort of the ball is moving, right, this is becoming a very holistic strategy for a lot of your customers. So how do you think about your positioning here and your kind of scope for wallet share gains as you just drive more and more end-to-end kind of breadth across your customers?

So we think that's long-term, one of the big growth drivers that's what's happening is we're very strong on the channels. I mean the SMS channels, the WhatsApp channels, whatever and then you have voice and then you have e-mail. What's happening now is, every company is realizing, but [ gee ] I have in order to do omnichannel use all of these channels, all of these messaging channels, all the voice channels, all the e-mail channels combine them and in order to do conversations with my customers and just not one-off communication, then I need a software layer on top. And to us that basically becomes a SaaS layer, which is take a customer sending out messages then 20% response. What do they do with these messages? Well, then they need an automated way of understanding the intent of those messages in order to avoid just sending them in a black hole or sending them to a customer care center, which will be too expensive. Then they come to us and want to buy a NLP solution, which is in our case it's called chat layer. So we're adding this kind of SaaS layer on top, which becomes an upsell opportunity to all our customers. In the long run, that can drive significant growth and that's one of the business units we're creating to focus solely on that. So very interesting and positive development I think for the market.

Got it.

And I should probably say that's also a -- it's a SaaS style business more, it's like an [ 80% ] margin type of thing, right? So it complements the existing business in a very, very good way, right?

It's a very kind of land and expand, so the [ e-comm ] kind of...

Land and expand...

And the upsell, the cross-sell comes at a much higher incremental margin because you're just growing with existing customers, basically?

Yes, and you got the land and expand got to that, but you also got the e-mail and to voice now. So...

Yes.

All our messaging customers in principle, 100% of them have an e-mail provider, bringing in Pathwire, we see very strong, good early signs of being able to cross-sell, bringing in Inteliquent's voice and vice versa to their customer bases and then applications. We have got a lot of like to the existing customers do the land and expand with products we have at scale in the business already.

Got it. Got it. So if you sort of dissect the growth, do kind of a blended TAM growth for your different segments and you obviously bulked up in scale. How do you see sort of kind of your blended industry market? I mean you're growing, you're saying in a 20% to 30% type corridor. What is the kind of blended growth rate of the markets you address today?

Oh, that's a big question in a big market, which is happening, I'll talk about the individual pieces. You got the messaging part $20 billion growing at 10 to 15, sub-part of that SMS maybe 10 and then you got the conversation messaging maybe 50 to 100 in the category. Then we got voice $10 billion, something like that growing at 10, 15 as well. Then you've got e-mail growing at maybe 15% on the total e-mail market also $10 billion. And then we got the SMB side growing at 15, 20. And we got the entire applications for it, which is probably growing at 25, 30 something like that. And you've got a developer market, which is also growing at rapid rates, which is all the other products presented to a developer. So that's also higher growth rates. So that blend and you've got the video part growing typically fast as well. So that blended growth rates is what you get or if you want to look at the total CPaaS market.

Yes, yes and that clearly seems to largely underpin your at least the lower band of what you're looking to grow?

Yes, I mean if you talk to Gartner, I mean, they have a couple of these folks like buy 20%, 25%, 90% of global enterprises will use CPaaS offering up from 20% in 2020 or 40% of mid-size up from 10% in 2021. So I think there's a big underlying growth trend in this market, both in number of customers that use it and then the actual penetration of each customer, which I think is a very, very good market to be in.

Yes. So maybe if we move to competition and in your opening remarks, you sort of said that this is a sort of 2-player market with you and Twilio. And then you also have some differences in Twilio. But on the call last week, you sort of flagged increasing competition. So perhaps can you tell us who are the other sort of players? And the comment on competition, was it just sort of aggressive pricing by somebody? Or was this more isolated comment around specific segments?

No, I think a couple of years ago, we set our sights, all right, we will be one of the top 2, top 3 players in this market, right? And we said, all right, we're going to do that organically and M&A. And we knew when doing that, we would wake up quite a bit of competition. And right now, we have gotten there and we're super happy with the position. I think it's a revered position in a very, very attractive market. So we're very happy with that. Now what has happened then is, you see the 2 largest players being Sinch and Twilio and then a lot of other -- of the mid-size players realizing, hey, the amount of investment you need to do to follow here is large. Therefore, they needed to -- they need to either if you don't become one of the top 3, 4 players, it's going to be hard to follow the investments. So there, you have a set of those trying to get to one of the top 3, 4, 5 players that can really dominate this market going forward. So you have that thing going on, right?

Yes.

And if you're smaller, I think you realize -- you see that on the M&A front, a lot of smaller players realizing I can't really compete, I can't really follow on there for one to get consolidated into one of the bigger groups because they just realize they can't really follow or they take a niche strategy in one different segment basically.

Got it. Got it. So maybe just turning to gross profit because, obviously, some of the acquisitions you have done recently have brought in a better gross profit mix, but perhaps a bit more dilutive on sort of the growth side. How should we start to think around also the pricing point you made? Because it seems that in your other markets, say, developed markets, you're not having any issues around telco kind of pricing increasing and passing them through, you mentioned Brazil being a particularly kind of more acute isolated situation. So as we think of the moving parts within sort of gross profit growth, we think of mix coming from kind of lower growth messaging versus the kind of time it takes to pass-through, is there anything else we are sort of missing in terms of kind of key factors?

We talked about the messaging growth, right, so we've covered that. Then you've got the 2 really fast-growing engines that is the developer and e-mail past year, there was 30% growth on that side, being 11% of our GP. And then you got the SMB. Last year it was 20 -- so 28-- 27% or 28% growth last year on the SMB side. So that's 2 real growth engines typically with high margins as well. So super happy about those. And then we got Inteliquent, which has a slightly different profile, extremely cash generative, kind of very profitable, but at a lower growth profile. Now that low growth is partly because they had this 30% COVID hike in 2019 and 2020. So comparables, if you look percentages get high, part of it is a reform that makes every 1-800 numbers every kind of margin per every message, [ if I recall ], a little bit lower. So that also makes the reported 7% last year is including the effect of both of these, basically, underlying they would grow, grow faster than that. So -- but that's the profile of the company, right? You've got the solid growth messaging, you've got this voice thing and then 2 high-growth areas, right? And you've got applications which should grow fast as well. So it's a mix of 5 business units with their own profiles, some really solid growth, some more cash flow generative, but I think that's a very solid ground to stand on.

Sure. Another thing you talked about at the results last week was on sort of the acquired businesses is managing their kind of the OpEx side. And how should we think of the phasing of some of those savings and cost controls? Are they likely to be more second half weighted?

No, I didn't -- if I did, I didn't want to say on the acquired businesses. We have an OpEx control initiative right now on the messaging business and on the core functions, not in the acquired businesses because they grow so well, so there we're more pumping the growth, right?

Yes, yes.

On the messaging side, we're simply seeing over the last quarter, OpEx growth being a little bit higher than gross profit growth because we invested a lot. We are just financially prudent and responsible and say OpEx and GP should grow round about the same. We [ haven't ] got sound way to drive the business, that's one. On the core function side, it's more -- we doubled the business in Q4. And when you double the business, I need to take some cost for our finance team to do group accounting on the new businesses. So there we had to do a hike in Q4. And with that, we can now level off from the Q4 level. Important to know that that's actually 100% weighing -- that scale-up for the new businesses is weighing on the messaging business in Q4 because we hadn't closed the other transactions. So it looks that the messaging is carrying more cost than it actually should, of course.

But what you're saying is given the expanded scale, there should be leverage on a lot of central, so chat functions as you scale the business basically?

Exactly. I mean in principle saying -- I mean, our headquarter costs, if you take those, then, I mean, the entire M&A team and corporate headquarters being public financing, et cetera, that's obviously now benefiting all business units. And we're basically seeing we have -- we're going from 1 BU if you will to 5 and being able to give our M&A power, financial power, public market power to 5 CEOs, I think is a tremendously powerful model. From a cost perspective, obviously, it's a bigger base to spread it from, which is obviously scalability.

Coming back, I mean, one of the other concerns people had was around the fact that you've done several deals in the short time frame and the integration plan. Now you wouldn't have done this if you thought that this was -- you would have thought about this pretty carefully before kind of executing it. So perhaps what are the lessons learned from sort of Q4 and relative kind of to the playbook you had? And how do you sort of appease people's kind of concerns around this why this should not be a risk for at least the best part of this year, while you're through the peak phase of integration?

So first, the integration of these new incoming large companies is actually easier than what we did with SDI and Wavy because at those stages, we're integrating the entire platform, shutting down their platforms, moving all the traffic to us, that's hard. In these incumbent companies, we don't merge the e-mail platform with the voice platform, with the messaging because it's like merging a car and a boat and a bicycle and they do different things. So that would be [indiscernible], right? We merged -- we do a unified front end, so customers can communicate it, but I'd say a much easier thing. So that makes that integration easier. The other part is we're actually running them as BU. It comes in with the management team, with the CEO, and continue to operate as business units. They continue in their structures, which makes integration a lot easier than otherwise. So that kind of eases down. And that's not only because -- that's not because we can't do it, it is because we fundamentally believe and delegate responsibility, strong business unit leader, driving their businesses and giving this power that we have on the group function, on the M&A side to multiple business units. I think that's a very good operating model to drive this size of business going forward.

Got it. Got it. So obviously, the focus is on kind of bedding these in. But I think from what you sketched out in terms of the opportunities, you see M&A still going to be very much part of the Sinch strategy even kind of going forward. You've kind of indicated that from a kind of balance sheet standpoint, you still have plenty of headroom. So how should we think about sort of go-forward M&A? And should we think of maybe a brief pause while you're kind of integrating over the course of this year and you're kind of back on? Or would you evaluate an opportunistic -- if there was an opportunity placed in front of you, especially in line with the correction in valuations we see in the market right now?

So strategy stays the same, right? We think that we will drive organic growth, strong and M&A-driven growth strong and we think that will drive a lot of value to shareholders and we have proven that we can do both basically. So we think our strategy is 100% the same in the long run, right? Then in the short-term, obviously, we need to -- when you double the company in a quarter, you need to consume that both from an operational perspective, getting those in and making sure this works. So that's an obvious one. And then also from a financial perspective, deleveraging, et cetera, which we're doing quarter-on-quarter around our strong cash flow. So that's 2 pieces to that puzzle. Then obviously, we are very disciplined in making accretive acquisitions to our shareholders. We will continue to do that. So then obviously, like you alluded to, the share price is a factor, we want to do accretive things [ than ] market. If we can do accretive deals in this market and feel we have the financial headroom then yes, right? But that's kind of our focus to be very disciplined on that side. And are there acquisitions? There is a steady incoming flow. If we do it in the medium-term, it's probably going to be more within the business units, right, more smaller tuck-in within business units to complement something that they would need in order to drive forward -- but obviously, we -- strategy stays the same in the medium front.

Got it. I mean one of the questions that some have asked is, when you kind of work with telcos and telcos kind of push through price increases, how would you answer the question, someone asked you kind of what is Sinch's moat? How would you kind of respond to that question? What are the key areas of defensibility that you have?

Of our core USP, so what I mean the...

Correct, so in the event that, obviously, telcos keep kind of hiking through pricing, you have the ability to kind of price it on. Is there a kind of a limit? Or are there just geographical nuances there? Is there something else from a technology layer standpoint that gives you then the additional kind of pricing power to offset the telco price hikes?

Yes, what happens -- what happens now is, if you talk the messaging business, right?

Yes.

We have both operators and what we call OTT players thinking now as suppliers, right, the WhatsApps and WeChats and the Telegrams and what have you. So what happens is when telecom operators price up the price of SMS, then the other channels get relatively more competitive. So suddenly, you kind of become -- operators now have a competitor in order to -- they have a competitor where suddenly the traffic will move in other channel. To us that's fine because we cover that channel as well. It's an operator that just loses the channel. So there is a -- that pressure is kind of at some point limiting the amount of money the operator can charge. The other side is obviously just the ROI for enterprises at the end doesn't become good enough and there they will drive down volumes. So -- or they will kind of go to other channels such as e-mail or maybe voice. So that's the kind of the competitive pressure that comes from the operators, even though they can control their own customer base within text messaging isolated.

Got it. Got it. So I think when you're kind of running your business both full steam on organic, also doing kind of M&A, do you feel you need to add more layers into the management structure to kind of manage growth? Because we've seen that with a lot of software companies part of their kind of growth as you get to a certain scale, you need to kind of effectively put in additional layers, while it's not ideal, but it's to essentially managing the company's growth over a life cycle. Do you see any -- you have these independent kind of business units and you run them very much that way, do you feel a need to change the structure in any way or add more layers?

Well, that's what we're doing with the business unit structure. We're basically taking of course and placing it into enterprise and messaging and applications and creating management team for each of them. So that's actually what we already are executing on in order to delegate clear responsibility and power to stand-alone business units here. So -- and we think that's a natural state. If you are 4,000 people now, that's kind of a natural state if you talk to many cloud businesses, okay, at that stage, you need to kind of break it up, it doesn't work to run it in one product road map anymore. So you need to do that. In our state, it's kind of less dramatic in a way because we're getting these 3 business units in that has been operating that way already, right? So large portion of the business is already operating that way and we're kind of replicating those structures with a core Sinch thing. So delegating responsibility in that is a core part of this reorg that we just announced.

Got it. Got it. So maybe just thinking a bit more longer-term. You talked about this being kind of largely going to end up being a 2-player market between yourselves and Twilio. What does the CPaaS market look like in 5 or 10 years from now when you sit in your kind of strategy, what's your strategy lens? And just curious to get your perspective, are there any other sort of newer threats that you kind of see on the horizon that you need to kind of hedge against?

So first, we don't think this is a fit for tat against Twilio, right? We think this is not a winner takes it all market. We think there may be a small set of truly global players when it gets to truly global scale. So we think about like how many players will be able to serve all channels, including an integrated application levels at scale globally to big companies, right? That's a tall order, not very many can do it in a very powerful position. So if that's 2 or 3 or 4, I don't know, but it's going to be a small set of companies, right, that actually gets to that level I think and we definitely target and we are one of them basically. So that's how we see the market. Sorry, I lost my chain of thought there what the question is, so continue this -- please repeat the question.

No, are there any other kind of players you see emerging besides yourself and Twilio and you clearly see it as the market big enough to facilitate both. But do you see any horizon of anybody else entering this space?

There's a set of others, right? It could be like what will Ericsson do with the Vonage acquisition, I mean you can debate that. How are they, they're significantly smaller in this area, right? You have players like Infobip can do that, you have a couple of the Indian players. So I think there's a slew of players there that wants to target a similar position, but are not really there yet, right? So that's where a lot of the activity in the market is, of course, so.

Right. And do you see Infobip being quite price aggressive?

I prefer not to talk about specific customers, but obviously Infobip and us being 2 of the largest messaging players, we competed against each other for many, many, many years. And so we know them well. They know us well. We know their strengths and weaknesses and they know ours, right? So that's one of the -- on the text messaging side, one of the companies we come up with a lot of course.

Yes. So obviously, share price has been under quite a lot of pressure since the results, so I had a small relief today. I guess what would be your message to investors to, I guess both your existing shareholders, but also any potential new shareholders, what is the market missing here?

Well, I shouldn't teach the market, the market needs to set the price, right? So I'm not going to say the market is missing something, shareholders can now make their own decisions and we value them. And the way I think about the market, if I look at it, I'm always very fundamental, right? I'm like -- is this a good market? And I get to -- this is a 60 billion [ time ] growing a growth -- growing at good growth rates with both increased wallet share per customer and increased kind of penetration in a number of customers. That's a really good market to be in, I mean that's kind of fundamental Stage 1, right? Number 2 is what companies are well positioned? I think this company as Sinch is very well positioned in that market, very few has the total capabilities. So I have a strong market with a company that is well positioned. And then I would say, has the management team delivered -- has the management team proven that they have delivered? I think in the long run, I mean, really driving the most profitable CPaaS companies on the planet, I think that's really strong, extremely strong cash flow generation, et cetera, over the last quarters. I think going from like 300 people, 80 million, 3.5 years ago, so going to 4,800 million gross profit now 3.5 years later, I think that's a strong execution both organically and M&A-wise. And then, of course, Q4, I want to have high growth, I always want to have high growth. So yes and then you need to judge for yourself compared to all these macro things and then what do you think about the latest trends basically. But to me -- to me I mean, we're a super strong -- I've never been this positive about our position, never been this positive about our ability to win customers in the market. So I'm very positive on the outlook of the company from a positioning perspective in this market.

Got it. Oscar, thank you so much for joining us at the conference and sharing your insights around both the near-term and the kind of longer-term growth prospects. So really appreciate it. And thank you everyone for joining this session and we'll end it right here. Thank you, Oscar.

Thanks a lot for your interest. Take care.