Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to the Second Quarter Webcast for Sivers Semiconductors. My name is Anders Storm, I'm the Group CEO, and I'm going to take you through the Q2 report and more information around that. So if we look at the short summary, the Q2 came in at SEK 27 million, which is 25% year-on-year growth, with Wireless driving the growth with 118%. We have, total this year, added 5 design wins for the Wireless business. We are now up to 26 in total. Fortune 100 customers so far this year have put orders in to SEK 25 million. And Photonics reached also a very significant milestone on its silicon photonics platform, the indium phosphide 100 platform together with Imec and ASMR (sic) [ ASM AMICRA ], which we are really hopeful for in the future. 8devices, that also came out with seeing very positive upside on their estimates for the future orders they're going to put in for 2021 to '24, and we also were able to get an uplisting to the NASDAQ main market and we're now on the mid-caps list since June, which has increased the number of institutional investors in the company. And also, we've been able to hire a lot of new personnel during this time, about 20 new people, which is 20% up for 2021, and we keep on growing this year to secure the future growth of the company. So if we look at the numbers, they came in 25% higher for the revenue, as I said before. We had a bit lower EBITDA, but that is very connected to the cost of moving list, SEK 8 million of those was connected to that, as well as hiring more people into the company, which is a very important piece of building this growth in the future. And of course, the operating income is directly affected by the same numbers. And the group cash and equivalents are still very strong. Our current financial assets is up SEK 143 million. So we feel very confident that we can keep on and invest in growth. If you look at the segments, we came in with almost SEK 10 million on Wireless. The growth is 118%. So this is the sort of a start in the way getting out of the pandemic, and we're now seeing the sort of first small parts of growth that we foresee in the future. Of course, we have much bigger hopes going forward when it comes to the Wireless business and what's going to happen there. Also, Photonics came in at SEK 70 million, just above last year, might have a bit more challenge still with the pandemic, and that is sort of the same as last year. We are still on sort of North America. It's the largest market with about 70%; Europe, 18%; and Asia about 13%. So still North America is a very important market and will be that for the future as well. We're seeing also a lot of the design wins now moving in the North American market, and I will tell you all about the different design wins later on. So if you look at this, what have we done this year, and we talked about this. It's a very exciting time in the company's history. And of course, going up into the real main list that's a huge step for our company, and that has been very -- driving, and we worked really, really hard on that. And it's really a quality stamp now that we are there, and that is really important for the future growth there for the company and to able to build and get access to capital and so forth. We also added a lot of new resources. This is really exciting, of course, for the company; more than 20 heads, we foresee even more in the future. We're also opening the office. We've not yet been able to close that due to the COVID, but as soon as we see the chance here, I think we'll be able to start and finish those processes. Customer sales funnel looks really exciting. As I said before, we added 5 new design wins for the first half year. The Indium phosphide 100 silicon photonics platform is now sort of out there, and we expect second half this year that we're going to see sort of the first design wins on that, and it's really interesting to have that platform now in place together with our partners. Yes, and 5G design wins is also moving into orders. Of course, 180%. I mean, it's not much, but in Q2, but we foresee a more interesting second half in that sense. Fortune 100 customers that we have been working on getting into the pilot negotiation, they are ongoing. But so far, about SEK 25 million in orders and the dialogue continues. They're really happy with the technology, and we're making good progress there. We just need to see that we're now getting into the finalization of that and can get to the volume production here in the future. So if you look at the significant events. Of course, we added a North American design win for the 60 gigahertz unlicensed. And we have not been able to share the name and so forth yet, but I will tell you more about that. Also, as I mentioned, the 8devices shows a critical milestone and are now moving into volumes for the second half of the year. Also, NASDAQ, we started the trading, of course, at 10th of June. And as I mentioned, in Photonics, Imec, ASM AMICRA passed a major integration milestone and that's really going to be important for our silicon photonics going forward. We also signed an agreement in Japan with Shoshin for the Japanese market, and they have a really interesting parts where they can address interesting customers in the future. Also, a second design win this quarter with TMYTEK in Taiwan, and that's really going to be interesting to open up the market over in Taiwan and their interesting products. We also closed the second Photonics deal with our Fortune 100 customer in June. So that is progressing really well. So looking at the Fortune 100, we have so far close to SEK 14 million last quarter, and we have SEK 25 million total this year. Positive new orders and negotiations ongoing, as I mentioned. The Photonics investment is going up, and we have invested now into the fab about SEK 30 million this year, which is sort of pre-investment before we get to the sort of larger investments if and when this goes into volume production for this Fortune 100 customer. But those investments is very important to secure reliability of production and all of that. So we're making really good progress in that end and building out and adding incomes. The 2 new design wins, TMYTEK in Taiwan, they have a focus on different types of applications. The other one is a U.S. system vendor focused on fixed wireless and also point-to-point mix. And all of these design wins is together with Renesas, IDT. They're really large, I would say, company previously and now Japanese company-owned. They're a very important partner, and they are in most of the design wins together with us. So that's been really successful working together with them. And both of these design wins have been on the unlicensed band, where we're now making more and more progress, in general. Also, other significant events after that in Q2. We have these Series C shares, and I think people might have misunderstood this completely. It's not sort of a direct share issue in that sense. This is something that's been known for a very long time. This has been part of our incentive program since all the way back when I started. And now those incentive programs are getting into the possibility to both repurchase shares for those people who have them, but also the company, as I mentioned now in many quarterly reports, we will cover the social fees for these in the sense of these shares. So that's why we now have sort of done this with the shares as well as purchase them back. So the company now has these shares and as soon as the people will start buying shares within the company and the ownership will go over to the employees and so forth, these shares could go out to the market. But this is well known and has been in -- known for many years as well as reported in several annual reports and so forth. So this is no news in that sense. This is just something we need to report and make clear to everyone that we are done. When we come to design wins, we're now up to 26 design wins. Today, I'm going to focus on sort of the volume orders and where our partners are here in this. So if we look at the -- for the second half, what kind of customers are now getting into volume? So one of them is Cambium Networks. They have a ready product. And if you listen to the CEO, he's really -- on Cambium, he's really interested in and really excited about the future for this product. They're really happy they see good volumes coming in. Cambium Networks is a sort of -- they had a turnover of $100 million last quarter. They're based in Chicago. They're selling all over the world. And their CEO will actually be on our Capital Markets Day, the 23rd of September. So this is one of the products now going into production, and we are really looking forward to see this. This is a really nice product that will be used for fixed wireless access and other services. The other products going into production. The second one is Fujikura. There are actually 2 different products. One is the CPE, and one is the sort of automotive transportation product that they are doing. Fujikura is 60,000-people company in Japan, and they are working hard with a lot of different vendors to get this out in the second quarter, and we are seeing sort of the first orders coming in and those kind of things as well. So that is very interesting now that they're moving into this. And also, we talked about the track-to-train transportation before, and they are now moving into the right direction. And of course, when the site is opening up, this product is now running, it's passed all the testing and we are now hoping for the next step in this where they're going to build, for example, from Glasgow to London. And the more people are on the train, this is hopefully going to happen now in the second half of this year. So this is really important project. And even if the volume is not really great here, that's actually really good margins in this market. So we're looking forward to see this. And you can see more of this technology on their home page. And I think it's a fantastic technology. There is no other technology like this out in the market, I would say, that can provide gigabit speeds to the trains, and we're really proud to be part of this project. Another one is, of course, ADTRAN, who is using the CCS technology, and they are now selling into this in connections to RDOF stuff. And hopefully, a lot of the more RDOF situations will now lead into -- they also will use this wireless technology on top of their fiber. They have a lot of sort of Tier 1 customers in the fiber networks today, and they call this their fiber expansion portfolio. And that is really interesting to see how they can connect fiber and these gigabit solutions for fixed wireless access. ADTRAN is a quite large company. They have a turnover of about $500 million a year. There are 1,500 employees and they're based in Alabama in the U.S. So there are sort of a Tier 2 size vendor here that is out there selling and marketing this. The other company that is connected to them is also out selling their fixed wireless access and mesh solutions is CCS. This is really a ready product now. It's been deployed in London and other places and other places in the U.K. and CCS are winning business. And lately, I just saw they are hiring more people, which is a good sign that they are now making progress after the pandemic as well. Another product is AirVine Wave Tunnel. This is a multi-award-winning start-up in the U.S. They have built this product that you see on the right, they're using our technology. This is sort of a cutting-edge 60 gigahertz radio replacing sort of cabling in houses and so forth. And it's really good to see that they now have a physical product rather than just the trials. And this is -- it's a small company, but they have a really interesting technology that -- I mean I wouldn't be surprised if they are courted by the really big guys actually in the future here. Another one is the [ Tyco Networks ] fixed wireless access. This is a product we've seen now getting out in the U.S., it's sort of up and ready for orders, preorders, I would say. We hope to see more of these in the future. This is a sort of a fixed wireless 60 gigahertz products covering all the bands. Then we have the 8devices, as you see. They are now also ready sort of unit, and they're going into several new customers that can build out this in the second half of 2021. And as you've seen, they are expecting more orders in the future than they were expecting before. So this is really good. And now we're seeing this 7 to 8 different customers. I talked about last time getting into volume for the second half. I mean, we had some volumes now and it was just 118% revenue growth, but I hope you can see that these customers now getting into volumes and then we can see a different type of growth in the future. If we look at Photonics, the Fortune 100 customers, as I said before, we are working with them. We work now for 3 years with the first one, and they have actually invested over almost close to SEK 100 million now into this, at least something you do definitely if you want to do something interesting in the future. So we're very happy that they are keep on buying on the -- and they've invested SEK 25 million this year. And we hope to see more from them in this year as well. And they are moving closer and closer then to volume production, of course. The other customer, the Fortune 100, that was over a year ago now that they did, first, they are still evaluating their solutions. We have no new information to share there right now, but I hope to come back as soon as we have more information on that. And of course, NASDAQ main market, we shouldn't dwell on this, but it was a big thing for the company, and it's been really important for us to make this move to support our future growth. And also the quality stamp that the bigger institutional investors want to see because it's actually a rather big difference in the way they are checking the companies from auditors and everything to be able to be on this market versus First North. Also, I'm getting still these questions about shortage of semiconductors. And there is a shortage, but not for us. We have to look at the different types of technologies here. Sivers are using GlobalFoundries and IHP and silicon germanium, while people who are using TSMC in Taiwan, they're using [ signals ] and that's different type of technology. So there is no direct impact for us in this. So even if people are constantly talking about this everywhere, as you could see, sort of Wireless grew 118%, and this is -- there is no effect right now from our side on that. If we look at the shareholders currently, we have now about 21% of institutional shareholders. There is some new funds coming up on this list. The [ Nords ] for example, has now made it into 2 of their funds on to the -- on their top 10. There is a couple of other sort of index funds now bought another 1 million shares during sort of end of Q2 into Q3. So we are constantly increasing the number of the institutional investors now going into the main list. And I think we'll see more of interest from -- on that side. I'm talking to a lot of them and having meetings. So it's interesting to see this and especially looking for the future, we have sort of the growth in front of us, and that we need institutional investment support as well. So adding up the quarter, NASDAQ listing, done. That's a real quality stamp. We're really happy with it, we have done it on time, following the time plan and we got the big thumbs up from the auditors and the stock and the NASDAQ. We are now totaling 26 design wins, which is very positive, I would say. 5G design wins is very important, and we have netted 5 this year. The growth has started in Wireless. So we're seeing now a positive move for the year, and we are very -- hopefully for Q3 and Q4 now going forward. The Fortune 100, progressing really well. It has been SEK 25 million in this year so far, and we have very good thoughts, and they are appreciating the technology we have delivered so far. Also, we have a good amount of cash and bonds in the company, SEK 143 million, which will secure our growth going forward. We're hiring a lot of people with a good interest. It's been good to go into the main market. People are really seeing the company as very positive. We keep on growing probably around 130 employees at the end of the year, and we will establish that in the U.S. And I also want to make some noise about our Capital Markets Day on the 23rd of September. As I said before, the main guys from Siemens will be there, but we also have Cambium and we have another one interesting customer from Photonics possibly coming. So let's sign up for that, and there will be more information about that in the coming weeks. So that was the information I have today. And now as normal, we're going to go into the questions.

And I can see we have over 200 people on the call. So that's really nice to see. So if I open up the questions here. Let's see. Let's start from the beginning. In the year, you received a 5G-related design win Thai company -- no, not from Thai, that's from Taiwan. What potential do you see for this customer? It's a good question, but we haven't sort of got to that point yet. They are actually in the design phase of it. So I would say that they are more ranking as a Tier 3 possibly than a Tier 2 in that. So if that can give you some guidance. How does it look with patent on the Photonics part? Do you have that at all? Yes, we are. We have patents. You can go ahead and look for them, and we are constantly working to get more. And also specifically now when we're building up this kind of indium phosphide 100 platforms, silicon photonics, it's really important to keep on building on that. You have 26 design wins, but with customers' customer, can you say anything about how many more design wins you got then approximately? Currently, I would say maybe there is the double amount. It's hard to say, actually, because we don't get every customer that our customer has signed up with. I think we'll start seeing more of that now in the rollout in the second half when these 7, 8 sort of ready products I just showed you will get out into the market. In June, you received yet another order from the first Fortune 100, could you elaborate on where this customer is and its way towards high volumes? Yes. I mean we -- this part of the orders is to sort of trim and make the product even better for the volume. So these are very important orders, as I said, and keep on trimming the product to get into volume. So hopefully, we'll have some kind of information about this, but I don't want to go up to the date because I know how these guys are with things and don't want to share that. But I think we have a really good chance. They've invested SEK 100 million so far into this. So it's a very exciting project for us, and of course, a very exciting waiting for what's the next step is. When do you expect the deal with the first Fortune 500 customers to close regardless of outcome? I'm not really sure what you mean here. We have already sort of closed deals with Fortune 500s, but that may be you mean volume deals. And that's back to the first Fortune 100 I just mentioned. I mean, we're getting closer, let's say that. Will you announce all orders you receive or only from new customers? We only announce orders if they are sort of in a need to do that. So for example, normally, the stock market requires you to announce orders that are about 5% of your turnover and up. So currently, that's about SEK 5 million or whatever for us. So any order below SEK 5 million, we don't always share them because of that. Another thing, of course, if the new customer is big or small or depending on so-called if we need to release information. So it's a lot of different things that affect it. So no, we do not always share all orders, and that's how it is normally. Okay. So we have a few questions here. Number one, on the cash burn, what could you expect during the coming quarters? Yes, of course. I mean, we foresee, of course, growth in top line. And by that, we also foresee a less cash burn than we have had previously. When it comes to the CapEx, I think we've done most of the CapEx investments for this year with the SEK 30 million into the Photonics business. What's behind the SEK 50 million corporate bond investment? Yes, that's actually to get -- because we have a lot of cash. We don't want to just have them sitting on an account. We want to get some interest on them. So that's important for us to have that money in a good place. What customers are behind the increased hardware sales during the quarter? I cannot really go into exactly that. We haven't shared it, but I would say, of course, it is connected to the customers I have mentioned today in that sense. Cambium have commented that proof-of-concepts about to reveal in Q3, can you help us understand what type of volumes you will see in second half? I cannot speak for Cambium in that sense, and I don't think they want me to speak about that. But I've been saying that the proof of concept is in Q3. And as Cambium's CEO is saying, we could see volumes in Q4 from that sense. So I can unfortunately not give you any guidance there. Of the first 500 customers, how much is related to each of the 2 projects? Most of the different parts of the projects are connected to get into the volume production for the latest one. So we are sort of trimming the solution to make it fit into the final product. So it's more connected to that project. If we go into volume production with our biggest customer, will we see directly -- sell directly to them? Yes, we'll sell directly to them. They are a direct customer to us. Do you expect more new design wins during this year? Yes, of course. We are not happy with just 5 in that sense. We had, I think, 9 last year, and we have 5 now already. So we are definitely working on more design wins. When will the information come about the new chip? Yes. So if we succeed with the new chip, as we hope, I think we will come with information not far from now and within this year, definitely. Any new information from previous -- [indiscernible]? No new information right now. They are just in the design phase, I would say. So we have not much to say on that behalf, unfortunately. What kind of order value will it take for Sivers to communicate it within the market? Yes. So minimum SEK 5 million normally. If it's less, it has to be something else as well connected to the order that is market changing or whatever in that sense, if it's connected to something new. Otherwise, we normally don't sort of press release SEK 1 million, SEK 2 million, SEK 3 million sort of standard orders. If you don't have to name 1 or 2 wireless customers with the largest volume potential, which would you choose? I mean I think we should look at the sort of clearing of those customers. Of course, the Cambium and ADTRAN type of companies are the sort of Tier 2s here, the larger companies. So they will definitely be the ones we have the most expectation for. But of course, in some aspects, I mean, we are not going to get more successful than they are. So it's also up to them to be able to go out there and sell, of course. Are you happy with the amount of evaluation kits sold this year compared to 2020 and approximately how many has been sold? I actually have too much to do to look into the actual numbers this quarter. But I mean, we are selling as per normal, I would say. I would say we had a tremendous last 6 months last year with a lot of sales. So they are converting into design wins as we speak, and we've seen 5 of them this year. So I think we're happy with the sales we're having there, absolutely. Is the 60 gigahertz is released and approved unlicensed in Japan and is Fujikura [ CE ] the on the market? The 60 gigahertz is approved in Japan to be used. The Fujikura CE, I don't know if it's in the market yet and how they will sell it exactly. But definitely, the product is ready from a technical standpoint. And they are, of course, talking to their customers on that. Type of customer design wins for the indium phosphite 100 platform? Yes. So indium phosphite 100 customer is a very interesting platform because it could be used for everything from sensors to data center applications. So typical design wins be LIDAR, data centers, different type of sensors. So that will be, I think, one of the most important platforms for us going forward when it's coming to sort of adding more sort of standard customers on to the solutions. Do you expect more design wins this year for existing product? How big is the interest? Yes, we expect more design wins, and we have still a big interest from a lot of customers. And also with the new chips that are coming out, we already have sort of free discussions with customers there. When will the information about the new RF chips -- I have already answered that. Do you think we will know about pilot volume with the Fortune 100 customer Q3, Q4 or next year or -- no. I mean, I'd like to avoid to answer that because it could always go wrong in saying yes or no or a date. So I am hopeful that it will happen, but I don't dare to say a specific date. Your revised approach in U.S. defense have serious insight potential? Absolutely, all the wireless products today use Sivers products. And as you might have seen the other day, they have now got an approval to sell into U.S. defense applications with their product. And we already have design wins together with them in U.S. defense parts, as I mentioned in the 26 design wins. Status of the U.S. office? Yes, we are in the recruitment of the 2 VP business development for each business unit. We have yet to close them, but we -- hopefully, we're going to be able to do that in the second half of this year. When will the industry be ready to roll out their Sivers-designed products? Yes, as I mentioned in last report, they are now very focused on the next-generation chipset that is a very much better match for their solution. So I would say we probably have to wait until next year until we see that kind of reference platform availability. Do you expect to succeed with the new chip? Or are there any problems to handle? Not that I know yet. I mean we expect definitely to succeed. As you know, we already have this our biggest sort of estimated order around that. And that is very good to have as the driving R&D force for January 2023 with that volumes that we can see there. So of course, as always, with technology, there will be ups and downs with this chipset and with the buyers and so forth. But I don't see any sort of unnatural things in that aspect, not yet anyway. But we're really hopeful that, that will be a success, of course. Could you comment on the competitor side regarding 60 gigahertz, Qualcomm, Peraso, [indiscernible]? Yes. Qualcomm, they are still out there. They still don't have sort of a solution that covers the whole bandwidth, the 67 to 71 gigahertz, they go closer to 66. They are still on the same chips that they were like 2 years ago. They are part of the Terragraph stuff, which has been quite successful, I would say, in that sense that they've added up, I think, it's 5 different companies, but something it's not as many design wins that we have in 60 gig, but they have a few. They also have, as you might know, had huge problems back and forth. They are now back, but it's very uncertain still where they are going with this. I get the feeling that they are talking a lot more right now about license spectrum, and I expect them maybe to come out and try to compete in the license spectrum side of things since they are mentioning that a lot in different things in their posts. So there is some lockup with the 60 gig with their sort of customers that invested a lot of those money into that -- at the point earlier. So I don't think they are allowed still to sell their sort of wideband chip that is a competitor for us. That's a different thing they're using. So I would say they have 1 customer on that chip only. [indiscernible] is a player who have been using a similar technology like Qualcomm, and they've been around in a start-up coming out of Imec. They train to have sort of, in the future, the full bandwidth. They don't have it yet. But they've been around for quite some time, and I would say that their homepage is you don't see much movement on it, and I haven't seen them much in different design wins either, but we're keeping our eye on them and if they can be sort of a threat or not, we don't know yet. But because they're coming from the CMOS technology side of things, we hope not. But as a low-cost alternative with low power for different kind of applications, there might be a challenge. But not that we've seen so far. Any news related to NXP? Yes, I've mentioned that, and Ampleon project. Yes, we are out there selling, as you've seen. Few customers into the Ampleon project, we're still working on. And of course, Ampleon is part of the design win also that we have with Cambium and others. So we're moving ahead. What type of company do you plan to buy in which sector you are looking for? I mean I cannot go into that, of course. But I mean, we have a sort of a buy side M&A strategy in place where we're looking at different companies. And I hope to come back on that in the future here on what we're doing on that, of course, in more details. Do you have any weekly meetings with less than 100 customer? Of course, we have a lot of meetings constantly, and there are a lot of input from them in every meeting. It doesn't sound like the second Fortune 100 customer goes so much forward. Is that correct? Customer set down expectation for them? Not really. But I mean, when you are in that early phase, and I think it was the same thing for the first Fortune 100, it always takes more time when you're in the research phase because the customer needs to get the chip that we build and then they do their research and so forth. So it takes a long time before looking at sort of the feedback back and where they stand. So I don't see that we've put down the expectations. We are just waiting basically to get to the next step and hear what they have to say. How is it going with the different China projects? I would say that China in a way have been affected by COVID and some of them have, as I mentioned before, moved out a bit. But we are hopeful now, as I say, that we will see more of that, both as I mentioned, in the [indiscernible] which is the China project and so forth. So we'll come back and hopefully again be able to share more on that in the next quarterly data. The China product again. Just popping up in, the questions. Do you have an update on the unofficial F100 you are working with, talking to? I'm not sure what you mean -- we have sort of shared the 2 companies that we are working with. And of course, I don't have an update on any names on that. Unique characteristics of the new RF chip. Yes, that, you will see when we are launching it. I cannot share that now. Any news from Peraso? Yes, I just mentioned that. How is it going with the chipset sales for Ampleon? Can we see large orders from Tier 1, 2 or 3s? They are still investigating the solution. We have this out with customers, and we have yet to see any large order as you noticed. Any information about who Ericsson using in their product? Why don't they use Sivers? Yes. So Ericsson has actually developed their own solution, and they are using their own solution in all of their solutions today. I know that they have been out and talking about and having sort of RFIs and so forth around different things, but I think it's more to shake up the market than bringing in a customer or a company. So I think that currently, they see that they have it in-house, and they are doing that development in London, in Sweden. So we have quite good control over them. But they are not moving in any rather make/buy situation, they rather make at the moment. Can you describe the revenue potential for Sivers and Imec? I mean, it's hard to do that currently. Let me come back when we kind of sort of start sharing the actual customers around that rather than just looking at sort of the revenue potential overall in that sense. But I mean it is a silicon component, which is a very huge market. We can -- we talk -- that talks about data center, health care or whatever, it's up in between anything from 30% to 90% growth, depending on what market you're in. So if we sort of skip Imec AMICRA market, we stick with a normal market, that's sort of the size we're talking about. When do you think we will get -- I'll jump here. When do you think we'll get the big volume order, Q3 or Q3 nearby? Yes, I mean, I cannot sort of answer that kind of questions because that would be inside information. Revenue for North America on the Photonics side that are not 1 of the F2 -- what type of customers and revenue coming from? Revenue coming on the Photonics side. Yes, so we have couple of other customers, long-term customers we have in North America, and that's everything from data center, hardware from -- for printers, laser printers and a different type of things. How big volume with the indium phosphate platform? Yes, we've answered that. Have you been in recent contact with old, current and these sort of customers? Yes, we have. And I think some of them are now design wins. You have a substantial increase in receivable impacting your cash flow, how much of this is due to COVID-19 delays that could be sold before next quarter and what is the normal level in relation to sales? Can you comment on the net cash position and how you're thinking about improving that? Yes. I mean, that is, of course, something that we work on constantly to sort of secure that the increase in receivables are not impacting cash flow too much. But sometimes, you have to negotiate when you have 90 days or 45 days and 30 days. And the bigger the customers you have, the more impact they can have on that. So that is just how the business runs today, I would say. I don't think it's so much connected to COVID itself. It's more connected to the standard terms in the contracts we have with certain customers and when the orders come in. On the [indiscernible] you said that you are also working at customers also the 2 officials. Can you describe about the potential there? I mean, we have, as I talked about before, have a constant discussion with different Fortune 100 in both Wireless and Photonics. It's always a long process to get there. And the data center customer, for example, we are still working on that. It's not gone, but it's a lot of work to convince them into this, and we are spending resources right now to make sure that we could get there, but still it's taking some time. Whose chips are Nokia using? I think currently, they are using a Nokia wave in their current solution. I know what they might use in the solution, but I cannot comment on that currently. How many Photonics customers do you have today? Yes, we have around 25 different customers, I would say, that are generating revenue with sort of the top 10 or top 15 are giving us sort of 80%, 90% of the revenue. Let's see if there are any interesting -- I don't know. Shoshin have some interest in your accounts. Can you say something about the potential you see there? Yes. So one of the recent changing reseller in Japan is, of course, the possibility to reach into those kind of accounts. And that is, of course, quite interesting that they are working with those kind of companies that we mentioned. So -- but I cannot sort of go into details on the overall potential, just as it's a very interesting potential. When do you think turnover will reach black numbers? And as I said before, I mean, we don't do forecasts in that sense. As I can say, we are working on growing the company into profitability, and that's the most important part now. And we are now starting seeing some small growth, 118% in Wireless and so forth. But it's a very interesting part that we're getting into now when the customers are actually being able to start rolling out the order. The status of the SEK 480 million project? Yes. I mean, that's the chip everybody is asking for, and we'll come back on how the chip is going there, but I think it's going really well. It is currently in the fab, and we're waiting it to be back and the volume orders are then expected in the end of -- or in the early 2023 for that. Are Ericsson and Nokia competitors on 28 and 60? At 28, I mean, Ericsson is not a competitor per se. They are a competitor to our customers rather than directly to us. None of Ericsson and Nokia are doing 60 gigahertz today and Nokia were doing something with Qualcomm, but stopped that project because they didn't think it was good enough for a solution. Of course, we've been talking to them as well on this. They have been now lately focusing on 28 gigahertz. So none of them are competitors to us, but they're competitors to our customers. Any news from [ TopTech ]? Yes, TopTech is a very small company, as we mentioned before. They are working with some small solutions. We have not yet to see any sort of big steps from them actually. When will you present your new 5G chipsets? Yes, during the second half this year. How is the ambition to strengthen your U.S. presence for us and how much headcount and what is your ambition for rest of '21? So the plan is to add 4 people and 2 VP business development to presales. We are working on that to get that into the company as a first step. We're also, of course, looking on possible M&A buy side in the U.S. markets to strengthen our presence there as well. How do you expect the Ampleon projects compares with large customers? Yes. I mean we hope that actually we'll be able to materialize that from what we're doing and the stuff we've been working on together. And of course, we have some customers so far, like Cambium together with them. And we're looking at the [ informers ], they are working on different solutions there, but we have yet to share any sort of big success story, unfortunately. So that's -- now we see -- Okay. There's some more. The last 3 questions here then. Lower sales in Q2 [indiscernible] and exit from Asia, is that because COVID-19? Yes, I think that the lower sales partly in -- or not growing the Photonics business is part of those kind of things, of course, yes. Is it only corona is stopping rollout? It's the market timing ready for the rollouts? Corona, in itself, it's not stopping. There's a possibility for the customers to build and test networks. But now that has started. And as I've shown you now just now, there is 7 to 8 different sort of hardwares that are out there and can get out to the market. So there is not a stop anymore as I see it for the 5G piece in that sense. You have said you're going to buy stock in the future. Are you still saying that? Yes, I will buy stock as long as I'm not locked in on any sort of insider information, I will buy stock and so forth. But from time to time, the CEO are locked into that. So then I cannot buy stock. Do you have any teaser about the company Capital Markets Day? Yes, I mean, as I said before, there's going to be presentations, of course, from me, myself, and the as well as the CEO of Cambium. We are also now looking at getting some very interesting speaking from Photonics partners' customers. So let's come back to that in the near future. Okay. Last question here from [indiscernible]. Where do you see the company in 2 years? I mean we are working on growing this company heavily in the future. And in 2 years, I think that that's where a lot of the major growth will be coming. If you look into the company sort of following us like Redeye, Nordea, and [indiscernible], for example, you can read their report and see that in 2 years, that is when we all expect that things will happen. So of course, we will be in a much different place than when -- where we are today, I hope. So developing the company in all aspects as we're doing, more customers, more revenue and a wider possibility to bring even in M&A activities on the buy side. Okay. Thank you so much, everyone. Time is running out. I need to run to the next things. It's been a lot of people on here today. So good luck and talk to you soon. Bye-bye.