Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. My name is Anders Storm, I'm the Group CEO of Sivers Semiconductors. And I'm going to take you through this webcast for the fourth quarter results of Sivers Semiconductors. And also, in the end, we'll have a Q&A. Thank you for attending. So to give you some of the summary of the report and things, we have had a quarter with SEK 23.4 million in sales, minus 21% year-on-year, which is heavily affected by the pandemic and the shortage of components in the market. And that is, of course, very negative in a way that we have this pandemic over us right now, but we're very optimistic for the future as soon as the pandemic is over. Then of course, we did a very interesting acquisition with -- of MixComm during the quarter. And I'm going to tell you a lot about that. And we are sort of within, I would say, a week now of the closing of that and are quite optimistic that all of the small things that needs to happen will soon happen. Then we also got a very interesting order in Q4, which is I'm going to tell you more about. This was a SEK 5 million order for a new sensor with in Photonics and a quite exciting market there. We're getting this question a lot as well, the Fujikura, that sort of agreements are signed and ready for the next phase and getting into volume and so forth. But that contract is not connected to volume itself. It's sort of a master service level agreement. We also did a direct share issue of SEK 400 million during the quarter, which is then made -- we have over SEK 400 million now in the bank. And our future company to be MixComm also signed a partnership with Kreemo for 5G modules for the Metaverse, which is quite interesting. And just after the quarter closed, we had some really good news with the $2.1 million order of 5G products, which is now sort of getting into the volumes, even if delayed by the pandemic. MaxLinear, I'm going to tell you more about that and also the Sanmina work that we're doing with our friends at MixComm for future base station type of solutions. So going back and looking at the Q4 numbers, it was 21% down, as I mentioned. The EBITDA was down SEK 26 million, which is sort of heavily affected by a couple of things, who are nonrecurring onetime fees and as well as the lower top line sales. So for example, there were SEK 14 million in onetime fees and acquisition cost for MixComm as well as increased headcount that we now have added to the company to meet future customer demand. And that is, of course, affecting both EBITDA and EBIT in the same way. If we look at the full year then, and we have been sort of now flat for 2 years over the pandemic, which is sort of, of course, hampering the sales for us. So we're down a little bit, minus 6% compared to last year and the year before as well. And this is to 99% dependent on the pandemic, and we are seeing, of course, positive things on that side. If we look at the EBITDA, even if it's just around SEK 6 million, there is a big difference in the EBITDA, and that is connected mainly to SEK 50 million in acquisition costs, which was SEK 41.5 million. And there's also been the change and move to the main market and so forth. So looking at that, the numbers for EBITDA is actually not as bad as they look here because we have 2 very big onetime fees of SEK 50 million here. And the same thing is, of course, on EBIT. If we look at the segment reporting, and here, we're now seeing a bit of -- what I'm meaning with the pandemic, I mean, we have been working very hard to go from sort of NRE work into volume. And if we look at sort of the hardware sales, it's actually up 83% in the quarter. At the same time, the NRE is a bit down. And that is affecting sort of the top line because we have been focusing getting into volume rather than work on are project, which is not a long-term thing in that sense, but it's the volumes that need to come in. So that is affecting sort of specifically the wireless with a 51% less year-on-year growth and Photonics by 12%. So this is quite important. And it's easy to see here that the effect is actually on the NRE work rather than the hardware, which is sort of growing, but it should be growing more, of course -- if we did not have the pandemic. And as you see, the $2.1 million order for wireless, for example, came in the 3rd of January. And the segments, we are still largest in the North America, and that's why it's so important with the acquisition of MixComm in the North American market. And I will tell you more about that acquisition. If we look at the overall significant events, of course, the MixComm acquisition is one of them. The other one in connection with that is the direct share issue. And then as I mentioned, the Kreemo development of a 5G module, then also had a very great collaboration with Rohde & Schwarz, one of the largest test manufacturing companies in the world and show that our technology is superior. And also Photonics received this very interesting order from another U.S. customer in this sense. But let me start with the creation, the challenger in 5G millimeter wave by combining Sivers and MixComm to one entity. So this is sort of the company after the merger, which we then foresee to happen within the week. And will be about 140 employees. We have 42 PhDs. We have a cash position before the acquisition of about $46 million. There is a SEK 200 million approximately in cash that will be distributed to MixComm. We also have sort of a very interesting strong investor base here now and also bringing in Kairos, who is one of the main owners of MixComm will change also that, and we're bringing in new customers or new owners in that sense. We together have 44 design wins. We'll still have sort of 2 business units, one wireless unit and then the Photonics unit, but now also having offices in both Chatham out in New Jersey and in San Diego. And I've been actually traveling to both locations over -- twice over the last couple of months. And it's very impressive to see how and what MixComm have done in the U.S. If we look at the MixComm portfolio here, we have the beamformers, which are sort of world-class beamformers and also the Antenna in Package technology that has been developed together with our friends at Global Foundries, which is one of the most interesting foundries here in the world around that. And that's a long collaboration as well as Dr. Harish worked out of Columbia University, which is sort of a lot of the IP and things that goes into the beamformers and which makes this technology so interesting to acquire. The other piece is the SATCOM, and the SATCOM market is actually quite interesting now. There's a lot of new projects coming in, in the pipeline. This project is already there and the technology is already sold and we're getting orders. So this is quite interesting to already be in the SATCOM market. Even if the SATCOM market is in an early phase, that's one of the sort of millimeter wave markets that is quite important to be part of. Another missing piece we haven't had before is the repeaters, which is now with one of the major cable MSOs in the U.S. And we've been trialing that. And then also the algorithm to sort of strengthen the rest of the company when it comes to performance and so forth with all our different 5G chip sets. And this is the Sivers portfolio and there is very little overlap. It's just a project we did with Ampleon, who has the overlap, which is sort of now more or less something that we sort of are obsolete in that sense. But getting an even better position and also with Tier 1 customers. This is not a big deal as we see it, it's more positive thing. And the synergies then make sort of that we check in all the ticks boxes compared to the smaller competitors like Movandi and Anokiwave, but also the large companies like Qualcomm and Analog Devices doesn't cover all of the things that we actually have in the portfolio, which makes us sort of a very, very strong challenger in this market coming from below here from the large vendors, which is a position that this perfect position to have for the company. This will give us a very wide number of products we can be part of everything from the satellite terminals on the ground from the beginning, but also in the licensed 5G for base stations, home units, repeaters, lots of different things that also Sivers had before, but also widening. And then in the unlicensed spectrum where Sivers has been sort of #1 fighting with Qualcomm, we have everything from transportation, backhaul, and we also had a new partner right just last week about in that point-to-point links for backhaul. So it's a lot of different things we can actually offer here and keep on building on this massive ecosystem, which has been 1 of the cornerstones of Sivers to partner up. So for example, I mean, many of the design wins we have today on unlicensed spectrum is together with IDT and Renesas with their baseband. And that's the way we want to do it as well. So looking at MixComm we have Xilinx and SiTune. We have been working with NXP, and we are still working with NXP to get that to the market; MaxLinear right now. So we have sort of a very wide network now in the baseband areas, which is sort of complementing our own solution and gives all customers a pre-integrated solution that they can design in and that will help them going quickly to market. If we look at then the major systems here, we're still working with the Tier 1. We actually got the first prototype order from them now to be shipped in March. So we are making progress on that project. This is quite interesting and one of the most important pieces why the acquisition of MixComm was so important for us and also getting hold of the sort of high-end technology here with both beamformers and Antenna in Package. Then we have this major MSO in the U.S. We did a trial with them or MixComm did in Q4, gone really, really well. We're now expecting to get into the next generation of these things and development is expected to happen during 2022, and this is also working together with Xilinx, and we foresee possibilities in the end with the future backhaul stuff that we were mentioning. And this is sort of a $50 billion revenue NASDAQ company, which is driving this trials and that we are getting these orders from. We look at the SATCOM customer from the U.K., this is a very interesting solution where we have created these solutions specifically for them, and there's been an NRE development of $2 million. We also foresee future NRE in different frequency bands. Interesting to know is that there is 1,700 beamformers per ground terminal currently. So the number of chips that could be sold here is massive when we get into that market, which is just now starting, and we foresee revenue from this customer over the full 2022 as well. Kreemo, as we talked about, there's a lot of information about them. We're going to do some interesting thing now for Mobile World Congress, but also this in the future where they actually been able to put antenna technology into displays. So this is something we're working on in the next step and quite interesting partner as well. If we look at Photonics, it was a very interesting order we got of SEK 5.3 million in Q4. This is sort of -- we're providing the light sources, the lasers for this product. This is a U.S.-based customer and unfortunately, due to competition reasons, they don't really want to go out with the name. But the sensor solution in this market is to be catapulted from sort of $4 billion for the overall systems to $200 billion in 2030. This is a long project, as usual within Photonics, 2 to 4 years to get sort of to the end market here, but it's a huge market. And according to research around this company sort of they have a technology around this sensors sort of back-end technology, which is sort of superior to compared to other competitors. And they are key partners have offered a clear path to the industry leaders over the next decade is what the researchers say. So if we look at what kind of TAM could we see then from Sivers Photonics probably 2% to 6%, it could be sort of the laser sources for this sort of huge TAM. So of course, it's much smaller on the top, but it's still a quite interesting and big market we can take part in. We look at the events after Q4, and it was very good to see that now 8devices could put the first order in. We have had challenges or they have had challenges with third-party components and there has been a clock buffer, which is a $0.50 component that has been out in the market and missing in the market. So they have been sort of redesigning the whole solution to be able to sort of get to market. And that was what they did now and therefore, we got the first order for the first customer in the U.S. Another important project is the MaxLinear project that we're working on. And there is already ongoing projects there. There are products out in the market as well as this product that would come out in the second half of the year, and we expect that to be quite interesting product for the future, and I will tell you more about that. And then also MixComm enter into a partnership with Sanmina for building sort of 5G base stations, bigger phased array modules, which is quite important and Sanmina has a very wide network of customers that we can sell into. So looking at this 8devices order, it was $2.1 million, and this is for U.S. customer. It's for the 60 gigahertz band. And here you can see sort of the model that they designed based on our antennas and chipset that you can see there in the background. This has previously been sort of been delayed due to third-party components, but are now finally in a state, which -- that's why we're seeing sort of the moving in this and that the second half of this year and maybe a bit earlier, we will start seeing these kind of things being fixed in the ecosystem and people can start delivering technology. And I will show you more about all the different vendors that has the technology to shift now. Also, the MaxLinear partnership here is interesting as I said. We have one customer already working on the design and another one is actually in the market using their technology with our baseband as well, and we'll show you that product soon as well. If we look at the customer updates. So if we go into the Photonics and we look first at the 2 contracts we have with Fortune 100 customers, and so far, the first customer, which is one very large technology company within consumer electronics, they've actually ordered over SEK 100 million. The project goes very, very well. They are very impressed with the technology we provided. We anticipate that they will put more orders in during the year here and finalizing sort of the technologies that should be in the market in that sense. Unfortunately, we don't have visibility yet on the sort of pilot lines when they will start. However, we are -- we feel very good about the project in itself and that the work we're doing with them. And of course, I mean, this has -- I've been saying the whole time that this is a 2- to 4-year project. And of course, the pandemic has sort of interfaced this into maybe 6, 9, 12 months, longer project as well in the sense compared to what might be a normal type of time frame. But of course, there is no normal in this pandemic when things come to fruition or not. The other piece is the second Fortune 100 customer, and that customer is still evaluating. We don't really know when and if they will go on into the next phase. However, this is sort of a very early research as we've been talking about the whole time. This is not in a phase where we're close to any production or anything. And research phase can take a very long time in these kind of projects. So up to 2 years in that sense or even more. And also, of course, pandemic effects are in phase. So if we look at the customers in general for Photonics and we just were on a big show around that. We, of course, have Ayar Labs, who is really pushing forward together with sort of CW-WDM compliant DFB lasers technology that we are developing for them during this year. So we're delivering that in this year. Imec is, of course, involved in part of this ecosystem as well, and that work is going well. We're very positive to try to find more customers here. We just had a lot of good meetings in this photonics fair we went to, and we had very intensive meetings with 2 different other Fortune 100s as well as well as sort of a lot of these Ayar Lab type companies which we can then address and also getting closer into the market now with the acquisition of MixComm in the U.S., where a lot of these things are happening on the West Coast, for example, of the U.S. So the customers are plentiful here and silicon photonics is a really, really hot area. And we'll soon go to the next fair, which is OFC fair actually in beginning of March. So looking at the global constraints, and this is sort of the effect, which is sort of the wet blanket currently. And third-party component has been a shortage for our customers. I mean we don't ourselves have any component shortage. It is actually other components that they really need to redesign. And that's -- this has sort of pushed this out 6 to 9 months, including Q4 now that we have sort of just passed. And projects for 2023 is also affected because customers are sort of putting sources on old products because they need to go in and change and make them work with components and getting second source components, which is, of course, not a good thing, and that's also affecting, of course, a number of design wins because they can't start a new design if they put the resources on other things. But even if this thing is happening, and we've now been in the pandemic over 2 years, we're seeing that there is a very good light in the tunnel and also the effect of merging with MixComm will reduce some of these negative effects and we will see sort of a positive development of the whole company now also adding all of that customer base as well as the ecosystem and getting into the U.S. market in a different way. So here is a very good example where we are with the Sivers technology. So now we have 10 of the 26 design wins have actually already designed products. They have ready things to go out. And in that sense, we can see all of these products. So it's 10 different products in 20 different hardwares. So there are many customers like Fujikura have 3 different ones. We have Cambium we have baseband and so forth. So in these things, we can see more and more things coming to the market and with that also when the pandemic is lightening up, like for example, track-to-train application, which has been completely stopped due to the pandemic probably we'll see decisions by those sort of vendors in end of Q1 and thereabout, where they can start maybe rollouts again instead of just stopping things. So that's very, very important. So to summarize everything. Of course, the quarter was not what we wanted, but at the same time, we're quite optimistic with looking at the future and all of those design wins we brought now to the market and the technology. Also winning the $2.1 million 5G order is actually showing that we are in the right progress. And bringing in MixComm is the second thing here that will sort of ease up even if we have the pandemic, we'll see sort of the growth coming together with all the projects they have as well. We also have Photonics order here, the SEK 5 million order, which is a much more interesting product, I think, than most have understood. Kreemo partnership is also a game changing, getting into sort of Metaverse type of things. Partnership with MaxLinear, which is quite important. And then in general, actually that the market is opening up now. So the Mobile World Congress will be first week of March, we will go for sure. And then we have the Optical Fiber Communication Conference in San Diego, the second week of March. So we are getting back to a more normal situation. And as long as the sort of the component situation on the third-party components for customers are now being sold by them, we will see the sort of anticipated growth with the design wins we have. So thank you very much for listening to that. We are going to go into questions and feel free to add them. I can see we already have a question, and I'm going to see if I can answer as many as possible.

So how many -- how much debt margins will you get when you can buy sort of wafers directly from Global Foundries rather than going from other sources now? So yes, I mean, I cannot talk about directly the margins. But I would say like the MixComm's margins compared to Sivers has been in the 60% plus range, while Sivers has been between 40% and 60%. So it could be a quite substantial margin change if we are able to negotiate that, of course, which we think we are. Your process in Photonics reached its highest level in 2 years. What lies behind the increase? And we are starting to see increased volumes. Yes. So we are, as I said, moving -- trying to move from NRE into sales. And there are customers. I can't mention the names because they want to be sort of not talk about the names, but we are seeing a positive move in that sense, both in actually sort of wireless sector as well. And of course, with the $2.1 million order that is very clear that things are changing. Are you hiring a lot of people now but delaying between 6 to 9, how does that work? We have been hiring and moving up. And of course, we are expecting a lot of work to happen here, and we need to take care of all the customers. And that's why we've brought in more cash for the company to sort of win market share and move forward. And all our investors want us to do that, to be aggressive and be one of the main challenge here in the market. And that's exactly what we've done also with the acquisition of MixComm. So of course, hiring people is one thing. And then some of the hirings are also replacement. So we also have a turnover of people, of course, in the company. So how is it doing with F100 pilot line? Yes. I think I answered that actually already in the conversation. And it's -- it is this -- we are still waiting on the decision on that, and I don't want to guess when the time frame is. But overall, we have a very good relationship with the Fortune 100. They have put in SEK 100 million, and we're quite sure we'll get more orders in this going forward. So the project is very much on. Why have you been hiring so many people lately? Okay. That's the same question. Anders, will you keep on buying shares of the report and so forth? As I said, I will. I want to. I mean I lost a lot of shares when I got divorced, and I'm trying to buy them back as much money I can save and use. So that I've gone out with, and I'm going to keep buying, and I really believe in the company. That's why I'm doing that, of course. When you were in U.S. 2 weeks ago, what was the MaxLinear deal? I mean it was part of that. I mean we had a lot of meetings in the U.S. with very many potential interesting customers and partners and so forth. But MaxLinear was one piece of it, of course, but there's much other things that will come in the future from all of this travel. And also now with people on the ground with both for Photonics, with [indiscernible] that will increase our availability to win more deals. With revenue and projects being delayed, continuous and future customer demand is way in the future, how do you motivate the big increase in employees? Yes. That's the same thing there that we are sort of increasing employees because we have been starved in a way. I mean we had about 20 people or something like that in the wireless business from the beginning. We need to add people to be able to -- I mean, as I just showed you, we have 26 design wins, we need to get them to the market. We need to have people who can work with that and work on. So this is sort of an intensive business to be part of, but also the rewards can be really high. If you have like we have very strong shareholders behind us that want us to be aggressive and move forward. We seem to have most of the prerequisites being a medium-sized company, but the revenue. I hope you, as the CEO, will recognize that we need to go from future plans to sales and revenue and create actual shareholder value, most investment and so forth. Yes. I of course, understand that. And as I said before, there was no one who wanted this pandemic when we got it. And it is extremely unfortunate. We have used the time to build up the company to be in a very, very good position to sort of capitalize on this. And we've been able to sort of acquire MixComm. We've been able to build the company. We've been able to add customers. I mean we have Photonics customers who invested SEK 100 million into the company. We have now one order for $2.1 million. So that's just one of them. We're looking to get this moving. And I'm fully aware that it's all about sort of revenue going forward -- and that's nothing strange about that, and that's what we're working on, of course. When do you see actual deals and orders manifesting from the merger between Sivers and MixComm? Yes. I think if we close now within a week, I think we will actually already in Q1 see orders and deals adding to the Q1 numbers, which -- that's why I'm saying that it is important that we will see growth even if we have this problems with sort of the delays to 6 to 9 months, but also adding MixComm on top of that, it will still show that we are going in the right direction in that sense. Where are we with the F100? Yes. I think -- no it's not lost, it is definitely ongoing. We haven't seen any design wins for a long time and you have released a new chip? Yes. And that is exactly what I've talked about. And it might be difficult to understand, but it is like this that when most of our customers have shortage of third-party components, they have to go back and they have commitments to deliver those product that is already in production. They need to move the resources and do like a device [indiscernible] change the clock buffer or whatever it is, that is missing and then they send the resources there. And for that reason, you cannot sort of get the design win because they don't have people to design your stuff in. So it's very unfortunate. It's sort of a double-whammy on that with the pandemic and the shortage of components. But it's not strange in itself, but it's , of course, not good in the sense. If I interpret you correctly, Anders, it sounds like the current market environment and order momentum should last at least into H2. Yes. I mean that's what I'm saying. The sort of shortage and so forth will affect us. However, as I mentioned, MixComm can have a positive effect on sort of numbers as well, of course, coming into the year. Could you highlight the phasing of the 8devices order a bit more? And should we expect more orders will likely be more in 2023 story? I think and I hope because this is connected to one customer, and I don't have full visibility of their pipeline. But we assume and we have had higher forecasting just this order from 8devices also for 2022 and things around that. So hopefully, yes. And of course, we will see even more orders for 2023 that also can come in late '22 in that sense. And the phasing -- we haven't gone into the phasing really, but it is a bit more, of course, slower -- it's a ramping and it's slower in the beginning and it is sort of in the end. So it's more back-heavy than front heavy, so to speak. Will MixComm be in smartphones? Yes. We hope so with the Kreemo situation. But as I said, it is also a way of -- we haven't really won that deal yet to be part of the displays. We have another thing that we will soon release about also for Mobile World Congress, but give you more flavor on that. But right now, we're in this modules. [indiscernible] in the Japan? Yes. I think if you mean Fujikura, so yes, Fujikura has signed the sort of master service level agreement, and we're working with them. As I said before, they are a Japanese company. They are very slow with things and are taking it slowly and so forth. But right now, we have no more updates on that they are out doing a lot of trials with customers, and we hope that will come to fruition soon. But of course, they're also affected by the pandemic as anybody else. Understanding the issue of the third-party components deserving customers' ability to push our product. But for many other companies, this has resulted in customers building inventory. Why do you think this is not the case for you? Yes. So the customers building inventory for things is more connected to this is our third-party components. It's not the Sivers one. So if they can't really get to market with our stuff, and the market is not ready for -- or that product is not ready for the market in that sense and with network approvals and all of that, it's not that they will start building inventory for us in that sense. Would you agree that the industry, in general, i.e., not only Sivers has overestimated the majority of unlicensed 5G? No. Not really. I think that it's very positive news now and look at sort of completing unlicensed 5G things. They are happening now as well. What is hampering in that a bit, I would say, is that the order of money is not sent out and that's what's hampering sort of ADTRAN as well components as well as order of cash getting into the customers they work with. So I don't think it's been overestimated. I think it will come, but it is delayed in that sense. And I would say, talking to the CEO of Cambium, he has been very bullish about their 60 gigahertz unlicensed product. Unfortunately, with not our technology in it, but they are very happy with their technology. The SEK 300 million cash equivalent in the report is after all expenses related to the MixComm merger. Not sure. There's a SEK 200 million cash payment that will come in the end. Then we have a total of SEK 437 million both in short-term bonds and cash. So I'm not 100% sure of your question. Do you think we are going to see insiders buy the stock at this report? I mean I can't talk for everybody else in this sense. I can only talk to myself. And as I said before, I will keep on buying shares in this -- at this moment. Are you worried about the stock value? I mean with the burn rate and the delayed revenue, you'll probably need more cash during the year. I'm not worried about the cash situation as it is. We have sort of a going concern and all of those things cleared. The stock value, I mean, I am not the person who should care about the stock value in that. I can't talk about the stock value. And the overall market now have really been difficult for most companies, looking at NASDAQ in the U.S., I mean, more than 50% of the companies have lost more than 50% of the value due to many things, everything from Ukraine to interest rates and all of those things. So I cannot worry about things that I cannot affect. What we need to do now from a Sivers perspective is to show the market that we are getting into sales and volumes and so forth. And it's been tough during the pandemic, but we are seeing this in the future. Regarding the 10 design wins that already for the market, do these customers have all the ingoing components? Or is there a delay and hampered volumes for these too? Yes. So that's what I mean. Those 10 customers are hampered by everything from third-party components to everything from truck to train applications are not being deployed. So -- and order of money not coming into ADTRAN. So there are effect on most of them. 8devices now have been the first in that sense, that's actually coming through. And we -- of course, we're getting some orders, but not in the amount that we have think and seen. So therefore, we have this 6 to 9 months where we see that all of this will sort of be solved when we go out of that period. What happened to the commercial negotiation with Fujikura? They are close, we have an agreement. When will you start forecasting externally? Yes. We will start that, I think, as soon as we can see in a way where some pandemic go past, and we can see sort of more of a stable quarter-by-quarter because it is quite difficult in this space when you don't have customer in high volume to do correct estimates and it only creates problems if we would do that. What is Susan Shea's main focus right now? Yes. I mean she is focusing on all the U.S. photonics customers like the Ayar Labs, like the Fortune 100s and on all of that. So on the West Coast to close more Fortune 100 customers as well, which we are sort of very hopeful to be able to do actually with the work that is put in there. Do you think you will move forward the pilot lines? Yes. I think so. But I mean, as I said, I mean, that's written in the stars. It's impossible to say if they will, in the end, it's not our decision. But our technology works well. They're really happy with the technology. We met the customer now in the last fair as well, and there is a quite good feedback on what we're doing. Will MixComm be in smartphones? I think I answered that. When do Sivers will have black numbers? So as I said, we are not doing the forecast. So by answering that, I would do a forecast. So I'm sorry, I cannot answer that. Do you have any insight to the Fortune 100 development process of the sensor in that case? Have there been any delay and issue with their development that you have noticed to have other part components of the sensor? Unfortunately, this is a very secretive company. We're getting some insights, but not everything. So we are not able to do the judgment on how everything is going. We can only see what they're requesting from us and seeing for the future. And then we're seeing that they will keep on building and work on it. And of course, they are also affected by the pandemic in some way. So I can't really answer it fully that question, unfortunately. How many employees are you totally after the acquisition of MixComm? I think we'll be around 140-ish. It's still, of course, headcount in and out, and it's around that area. 2021 was a year you invested heavily in a merger and now a new listing and also in new machinery. Do you plan for a similar large investment in the company during 2022? No. We are having less investments from sort of -- from standard stuff when it comes to the photonics since we did sort of the major there. Then of course, if the pilot line comes into place, that's sort of a very good scenario to have. When it comes to other investments like sort of the merger cost and the listing, no, we will not -- those SEK 50 million will not be there on the cost side. But of course, we might look at other mergers. And as I said, we will share it. But we are usually digesting what we are sort of bringing in before we sort of going. And it's not -- we're not on a buying spree as a company at all. That's not what the company is about. What quarter will MixComm numbers? They will -- if we now close within the week, then their numbers will be part of the Q1 already. When we started the project with the Fortune 100, it was announced that Sivers was the only company that could deliver. This was 2 years ago, but are we still in the pole position? It's a good question. I mean we think so. Since we got both sort of the emitter and the detector in this project, but I mean, we can never ever say for sure, and they would not tell us. But the feeling is that, but yes. What kind of orders will be announced to the market when you get them? Yes. I mean we usually depending a bit, is it a new business area and something new customers and so forth, we can sort of be obliged to do a press release. If the order is below SEK 5 million, normally, the 5% of the yearly turnover, it's also obliged to do it. So there is a lot of different requirements when we do it. But we don't do SEK 1 million here and SEK 2 million there, usually. It's sort of standard in that sense. How long would your cash be there? Yes. I mean as I said, we have secured a going concern and so forth for now. So it's -- I can't go into details on that. Comments on the slow ramp-up in volumes rate, the fixed wireless access and ADTRAN. Yes. So it is connected to the [ RF ]. And as you saw recently, they won a lot of new customers, and there are new customers coming in. But the cash, so we understand it as well is sort of delayed to be paid out to those customers. But ADTRAN is working hard now. And as you've seen them really step up their marketing around those products as well and they're getting new products to market, the latest CPE, for example. Are you more involved now than before with DARPA money and the U.S. military? Yes. I would say we are as a company via MixComm and will be more available to get DARPA money. Just for reference, $94 million have gone into Columbia University and part MixComm to create this technology, which has been part of DARPA money. Will the pandemic and the component likely to increase future rollout for 5G? Good question. It's hard to say actually. I haven't seen any forecast that sort of the increase have come. But in general, I would say, when it comes to these kind of technologies, long term, the technology has always become bigger than people think and start slower than they think in some way and even slower now with the pandemic. The goal of '22 were complete expect for the pilot line. What's your thoughts on the coming to a close? Yes. I think I answered that already. Yes, the goal was also affected by the pandemic and we wanted, of course, that was sort of -- wanted to get to the pilot line. But I mean, we are not the one who will decide that, unfortunately. Will Sivers be successful to growth? Or will you be sort of a company with the most hopes in it? We are quite sort of have big hopes that we will succeed with the growth. And I mean we have been taking up the ball for this with a lot of different customers and all the things we've been bringing in over the last 3 to 4 years, should result in growth when they get into volume, and that's what we all are waiting for, including myself. The extra payment to MixComm being related to specific events. Is that related to actually customer orders and revenue? Or is it related only to projects? It is related to specific customers of things that needs to happen. Can you increase the info about the news in the company via PM? I mean we cannot just send out press releases if we don't have them. We are trying to do. But I would say that like now for -- at least now we have Mobile World Congress coming up, we have a lot of releases that will go out in that sense. But I mean we cannot just invent press releases. I get that question a lot, but it's not how it works. When do you think orders will fall in its nearby? I mean I can't give a forecast on when orders come in. So the MixComm deal will most probably be finalized within a week. I trust that you will distribute the press release then when that occurs. Yes, of course. The press release is already done and waiting to be released as soon as we've sort of finalized the last pieces of the papers. Will you put the volume orders from the F1 to factories? That is not decided yet. By reading and hearing between the lines, the feeling is that Photonics got a better momentum right now by looking at the horizon without giving any guidance or commitment. Do you see that the Photonics revenue come before the wireless? I mean Photonics has been before wireless the whole time, and there are great opportunities. At the same time, we also hope to see a quite good growth and also adding mix coming into this, I think we'll see a sort of a different mix between wireless and Photonics in that sense because also Photonics time lines are, in many cases, longer than the wireless one. So it's a hard question to say and it's a lot of digital things when it comes to like the Fortune 100 when they hit and so forth. Is it still valid that the Fortune 100 only gone to Sivers? Yes. I think an answer that. MixComm will be consolidating Q1 numbers? Yes, if we now close within the week as we're hoping. Have you sold any evaluation kits in Q4? Yes. We're selling evaluation kits the whole time. But at the same time, it's sort of an ongoing business now that we might not report and so many other things to report on. We have sold a lot of kits and we're selling kits constantly. Will the earlier announced order of SEK 450 million [indiscernible]? Yes. We are affected as I've written, all projects for 2023 is also affected 6 to 9 months as we see it. Can you give an update on the SPIDAR project? Yes. That is sort of an ongoing internal or EU-funded type of project. And it's rolling on. It's nothing sort of not a big thing for the company in that sense that could lead to that we get technology out of it in the end that we can use in certain things. But many times, these projects are research only. How do you solve the F100 production and the large volumes? Are you planning to buy Photonics companies? I mean one piece is that we, of course, will build a pilot line, and then we will multiply that pilot line into a new fab. And if that will be our own fab or it will a be part fab or have a partly sort of outsourced as well as the opportunity to do an acquisition of someone. So I mean, all of those -- all of above is possible, and we are still sort of in negotiations to and how we'll be done with this customer. Any discussion with invested institutions about the stock price? What are the reactions on contracts with you? I mean the institutions would never talk about stock price and they will not sort of push us. They are well aware. And if you look at Swedbank new technology fund, it's been dropping heavily as well during this period because of the market conditions. So they would never ever come back and talk about stock price. They will probably more be interested in talking about sort of what we're doing and what we're producing and the mix come out and so forth. So no, they want to talk about stock price. Implement any strategy changes for the upcoming quarters. I mean the merger with MixComm and all that work will be sort of starting now when the closing is done, and that will sort of maybe change strategies and organizations and so forth and how we'll work, and we'll come back to that during that period. The project Imec, Ayar Labs is very exciting. When do you think there will be revenue? So again, I mean, we -- as we say, these things take time. So of course, we already have revenue on an NRE basis and sending some hardware we will do later this year. But in general, I think those projects are 2- to 4-year time frames when you really get the volumes and then it will be a good payoff sort of. Optimistic on F100? Yes. Are new intern R&D projects, higher frequencies or such? We haven't started working on any higher frequencies above the sort of 86 gigahertz yet. That is something for 6G. Those projects will probably start a bit later. Any track to train project outside Europe? Yes. We think so. I mean as you can see, evo-rail, the sort of spin out of [ FirstRail ] is working and they're hiring more and more people in many places of the world. And I hope to see sort of within this year that they win more business also outside of Europe. What are your take on the energy consumption in general for 5G applications? I mean energy consumption is sort of lower in general for 5G and 4G due to many different things. We're also working within Sivers to create products that are even more energy efficient. So beamforming and beam steering and algorithm, everything you can do, we can sort of reduce that. You have said that you're looking at putting sort of production in Taiwan. Is that still... Yes. I mean in a way, I just said as an example that in Taiwan, you might do outsourcing of some production lines depending on what's happening. But of course, that is a political decision as well as anything else when it comes to those type of countries. So not yet decided in any way. Is the Swedish market relevant in the coming years? No, not really from a product and sales perspective in Sweden in itself. Swedish customers could be of course. And there are many we talked to. A new contract with Gapwaves or car industry? We talk constantly with Gapwaves, and of course, there are different vendors and players within the car industry. We have tried to keep away from the car industry because if we think 2 to 4 years, it's a long lead time in photonics and the lead times in cars could be 3 to 7 years. So it is -- that's why we've not gone there. But I mean there is opportunities in those areas in the future, especially with radars. Has the MixComm been approved by the U.S. government agency? I can say that it's approved, yes. Is the Scandinavian market relevant in the coming years? Question again. Is patch antenna still used in the future? Yes, of course. Patch antennas, which is a Antenna in Package and all of those things that we're working on is for sure used by 99.9% of all the markets today. Last time you were talking about outsourcing and building. And I think that's the same. Are you worried about the future of the company? Not really. I mean I'm very excited about the future of the company when it comes to all the things we are doing now. And we have been putting the company in a very good position. If it wouldn't have been for the pandemic, we would have been in a very different position. So it's been very, very sad that, that has happened and the component outage now lately have really created problems for us, but I'm not worried due to that. I'm seeing all the opportunities in the future. Have we had existing stock of products, are you getting out of date? Or is that...? No, I mean we don't have that problem. We can store stock for quite some time. What happens with [indiscernible] co-lab? Yes. They are still working on things. They're putting some small orders in. They are still in the sort of trial out phase and working with their customers. We are now waiting for them to sort of start doing some volumes. They are a small company as I mentioned before. I don't think that they will not put in the SEK 100 million type of orders here. They will be sort of in the million ranges and upwards from the beginning when they ramp things up during this year. How is it doing with NXP? Yes. We are constantly working with NXP as I mentioned, and we are doing the integration and looking at different projects where we can actually get things out. But also, we -- as I mentioned previously, we have gone over to the next-generation chipset and the 5G chipset. So it is going to take longer time than we expected when we were working on the previous chip because that is not ready yet. What do you think about the Ayar Labs in the future? I think Ayar Labs is a very exciting project. It's a very high profile project and being part of that is very exciting, I would say, for us. What you are most optimistic about going into 2022? I think that all the sort of 10 design wins that they are now sort of getting into the next phase. We have all the different parts within the Photonics that we are now working on and then as well as the MixComm getting into the company, I think that is quite exciting. And near term, I'm really excited that we can go back to Mobile World Congress, which has been one of the most important fairs for us and we haven't been there now for 2 years. And that is very exciting to start meeting customers in a different way. NXP question again. I have one more minute, but a lot of questions. Let me see here if I -- do you see orders for data centers? Yes. We're working with Fortune 100s on that still. Yes, visiting Americas more frequently? Yes. I've been to the U.S. now twice since November. So of course, we're traveling more already. What's your biggest problems to overcome for you besides pandemic delays? I don't see so many sort of issues in general. Of course, there are standard things in technology that you need to sort of have yield and all of those things when you start ramping. But I don't see there's a problem as sort of a standard things. Are CCS doing sales by themselves or is that ADTRAN? CCS have some sales by themselves as well to certain customers that they brought in. But ADTRAN is going to be the wider channel going forward. You have a picture of the radar in cars. Where is that -- where is the product? I don't know where -- there's been sort of maybe some earlier sort of video or something. But I mean, we don't have a car radar today, no. You're sending out EV case for the new chipsets? No, not yet. Now okay. Time is actually out. I have a lot of questions left. I'm sorry for that. I need to go into things today. I'm doing the [Foreign Language] lunch now. I'm going to be interviewed by a couple of others, so I cannot do more questions. But thank you so much, everyone, for listening in. I'm very, very excited about the future. It's been tough. I acknowledge that. It's not been fun with this pandemic. However, we are very optimistic about the future and all the work we put in and we hope to see that come to fruition during 2022, of course. Thank you.