SkiStar AB (publ) (SKISB) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good day and thank you for standing by. Welcome to the SkiStar Year-End Report Q4 1st of September 2023 to 31st of August 2024 Webcast and Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please be advised that today's conference is being recorded. I would now like to hand the conference over to your speakers today, Stefan Sjostrand, CEO; and Martin Almgren, CFO. Please go ahead.

A warm thank you and also a warm welcome, everyone to this SkiStar Q4 and full year report. It will be myself and Martin presenting, and we have an agenda of today, where we'll give you, as we have done the last 3 quarters, a short recap of our Market Capital Day we had in October 2023, a year ago. And then we will take you through the Q4 where Martin will begin -- like to summarize from the drivers from the CMD and also our financial goals while I will talk about the Q4 and then Martin, again, back to the numbers. And then I will give you a short outlook of what's happening going forward. So let's go with a short recap from the capital -- CMD day we had a year ago. And we have, of course, now updated the numbers versus how it was a year ago. But there is 2 important numbers, which is still remaining. And one is 8 out of 10 of our employees are still very satisfied when going to work every day. And of course, our employees are crucial where we also have so many guests in our destinations. And our coworkers, employees, they are enormous and always do the best to deliver a strong guest experience. And also 8 out of 10 of our guests are saying that they've got the memorial mountain experience. And of course, that is crucial when you can deliver that such an amazing result to all our guests. Really proud of our growth number, SEK 4.7 billion, and Martin will then later on talk about how we accomplish that number. I'm also very satisfied that we have increased the number of digitally sold and downloaded SkiPass, which is now coming close to 80% of all sales. And the remaining part is when our visitors pick up the SkiPass in one of our SkiStar shop. So very good result, and that is continue to grow. And lastly but not least, really happy to see that 95% of our guests is doing the digital check-ins and that is also showing that our digital transformation continues in a very good level. So as a starting point, we have three important parts as a foundation. Again, our people and our culture that 8 out of 10 are very glad to come to work, but they also continue to come. As an example, 60% of our employees are returning back every year and that's also showing that we are a good employer and that it is a good place to work at SkiStar. It's important that our guests feel safe and secure when they come and visit us. And of course, we do everything what we can to deliver a sustainable experience. And we will also take you through our sustainability update where we are during this year. If we then look into the strategic framework, we are working on the 2 big areas, which is to deliver high experience in the mountain operations, of course, for our customers and visitors coming to us, but also that we have an important part in the property development. And during this Capital Market Day, we also were very clear about that the property development side, we have no rush. We take it in our pace and the years like we have had the last 1.5 years. When the market are a bit unstable in this property development, we are saying that we deliver in our pace -- in a pace where we can also feel confident and also that you in the market can feel confident. In the Mountain operations, we're really glad to work with those 3 areas. We did a safe and secure with the sustainability and our coworkers and the people and culture part. But also to continue to work with digitalization to become even better, smoother but also continue to work with business development and also continue to delever -- deliver new revenue streams within our company. If we take on the big hat and see it from a big picture, SkiStar is a large player in this industry. We are the fourth largest player in the world in this industry. And it's also with proudness, I can say that we are in a strong position in Scandinavia. We have a market leader position. We have roughly 42% market share and we are running the 5 largest winter destinations. And also, together with Hammarbybacken, the sixth one, we also deliver a full year mountain experience on all those destinations. I think this picture is very important when we often discuss pricing, when we often discuss size, et cetera, and here, we really would like to highlight the size of our 5 destinations. Just as an example, we have 77 grooming machines running our operations. And of course, that's an important number when you have such many slopes to really take care of from a customer experience. Also, if you look into the other slide, which is very important, you also can see a record in skier days that we deliver more than 6.1 million skier days. And if we then add up on these activity days, we have a plus 7% this year, which is, of course, a very strong number in those times when maybe the customers are a little bit more reluctant about what to prioritize. And we can clearly see that they prioritize to go to our destinations and our to -- our and then explore our products. Another very important part is the number of beds we have because the number of beds are the engine, and we will come back to that later on as well. but the number of beds would help us to get exchange of customers and guests every week. And as an example, Sälen, one of our -- the largest destination in Sweden and one of the largest in the world actually, exchange City of [indiscernible] every Saturday, Sunday. And just to imagine the number of people going on the roads and in buses, et cetera, to come and visit our destinations during this period of time. If we then look into the development of our destinations, we put up also a very clear strategy. And those 4 pictures is really showing a showcase of how it looked like a year ago actually, up to the left, how it was in Lindvallen, Sälen where we had 1 ski lift in -- which needs to be exchanged in [indiscernible] on the left side of that picture to the left. A couple of months, it looks like construction plays up to the right. how the lift looked like when it was up and running this winter and then down to the right, how it will look like in a couple of years when we have really developed the whole area around this ski lift. And this is exactly how we developed our areas now when we also invest in new lifts. Exactly the same will happen in Hemsedal where we will open up for a lodge #3, which we bought the land a couple of years ago to really continue to extend the customer experience at our destinations. Another very important part was to show that the international customer drives average spend. And that has been the case during this year. We have clearly seen that the British guests, the Danish guests, the guests from Netherlands and Germany are really driving an average spend versus the Swedish or the Norwegian guests. So really grateful to have a lot of international guests and we can also see at this booking pattern, we have this year, that there is more international guests still continue to choose our destinations versus others. So I stop there, and I will hand over to Martin to summarize what I just said a bit and then also we will go into the Q4 quarter.

Hi, everyone. So let's start, as Stefan said, with an update on our financial target and dividend policy that we have. Now when we have finalized our financial year '23-'24. And we had a strong organic growth, the goal is 6% and we managed to achieve a 10% organic growth when we adjust for currencies and acquisitions. So the growth this year, we are really satisfied how it has been developed, and we will come back a little bit more to the details, but we see that we have organic growth in all areas, which is really, really nice. The operating margin, we have a goal of 18%. We reached 16%. So it's half away from where we started last year where we ended up at 14%. So we are moving in the right direction. We are not yet fully reaching the goal, but we are continuing our work to be more efficient and find more profit in our business. So we are moving towards the 18%. Then we have a financial goal leverage, net debt to EBITDA, excluding IFRS, that should be not higher than 2.5x. This year, we ended up at 1.7x. So we are building for future expansions like Stefan said before, which is -- which feels really, really good. And then finally, our dividend policy, which is -- should be between 40% and 60%. And as you probably have seen, our suggestion to the annual meeting to decide about the dividend is that we increased the dividend to SEK 2.80 per share. So it's an increase with SEK 0.2 to SEK 2.80. Moving into our strategic initiatives then. How we should be able to reach our financial targets. And the first initiative is to keep the development of the all year-round operations that we have started a few years back, to continue to increase capacity to build more attractive destinations that will continue to drive new visits. And that's what we are doing. We are -- this year, we have invented in new lifts, for example, in Hemsedal, Salen and Åre, and we will continue that journey during the year -- the following years. We will also continue the work to strengthen our margin and growth. We are always looking into and try to be more and more efficient and fine-tuning our pricing on that by developing our dynamic pricing and also try to increase average spend on the different customers, and also the mix of different customers. And here, we see that -- for example, the airport in between Sälen and Trysil is an important part for us to attract international guests. And then to the main driver that Stefan said, increased number of commercial beds. This is really the engine in the volume growth. So today, we have 36,100 beds, and it's about growing that number. This can be done both by, that we build in our own books. We can use Skiab, our joint venture or there can be external exploiters that build cabins or apartments at our destinations. But the important thing is that we continuously add new beds into the system. The fourth strategy is about secure, sustainable future mounting experiences. Here, we are talking about really securing the white winters, investing in snow systems, so that we can secure that we have a good product when we start up the real season in Christmas. But it also is about environmental and sustainable -- about decreasing our CO2 footprint. And here, the transformation of Hammarbybacken here in Stockholm to become a fully electrified and fossil-free ski destination is one step in that direction. And the fifth initiative is about normalized investments over time. So we will pay our investments based on the cash flow that we generate over the year. So it's important to continue to work with an efficiency when it comes to cash flow. So now I'll leave over to Stefan.

Thank you, Martin, and then bear those 5 strategies in mind when we take you through both the quarter and the full year end results. So we continue to drive the sales growth with plus 3% if we clean out the extra revenues we got last year from support from the government in supporting electricity part. So if we take that out, we actually drive 3% growth. And we're really glad to have this subscription continue to grow of SkiPass SkiStar All Year. And this subscription method has gone from actually 0% up to around roughly 20%, 25% of our total seasonal path. So it, thus, become very interesting product. However, we're doing a negative result within the quarter. And one explanation of that is that we have some onetime offs connected to our joint venture, Skiab, where we -- it costed us around SEK 20 million. And then the other part is that we increased the marketing activities, mainly connected to our retail side but also how we could increase the year-round business and also to secure more safe and secure areas by putting in more maintenance and repair in our destinations. Again, back to the retail growth, really stable, and we continue to grow both online and these physical stores. So it's interesting to see that we have had more guests visiting us during this summer. And when we have more guests visiting us, we can see -- sorry, also beside Åre, which we haven't had, so more guests, and that is connected to Åre's big event there last summer. But if I take out Åre and look into Salen and Trysil for example, and Hemsedal, we can see that we have had more guests and they also are renting more bikes and they also buy both the subscription card but also a day card. So that has been good. And they're also buying some clothing products. Yes. When we presented our Q3, we showed an increase in bookings of 9%. And we actually added an extra activity in Denmark to attract more Danish guests since this is one of our important strategies to get the Danish to book early. And we are really glad that we got them into the systems, and we are probably getting a lot of new Danish customers coming in, visit us this winter, so that activity was very important for us. And now we are very glad to have a more stable booking. And if I then look into a historical perspective, we say that in Q3, we should have around 25% of the bookings done. And in this quarter, we should have 60%. And in next quarter, we should have 80%. And we are really following that line. So we feel very comfortable and also glad that we have such an increase of the international guests. And however, we also would like to highlight that we see a potential now that the Swedish guests will start to book more frequently. And we also have numbers that roughly around 70%, 75% of the Swedish guest still haven't booked the winter holiday. And we think that's a very important message to deliver that. There is a lot of Swedes out there who have been spending some time in the sun up to the last 2 weeks where we can clearly see -- specifically the last 4, 5 days, where we can see some snow in Hemsedal, Trysil and Åre that people start to book the winter holidays. If I then just make a short summary of the financial year '23, '24, it's extremely -- I'm very glad to just follow up the Martin's slide that we -- versus the goal of 6% organic growth, represent plus 10%. We are really taking some steps within the margin development on the way to reach the 18% by delivering 16%, and we're also delivering our second best result ever. And with an adjusted result, it's actually SEK 759 million, and it's a very stable result in those uncertain times. And really glad to see that all our segment delivers growth. Again, 8 out of 10 of our guests like us and also, I must say, give a high applaud to our coworkers and employees who really give all of the -- most out themselves to deliver this guest experience. And we're also glad to have a lot of guests returning year-on-year and 73% still are returning year-on-year and almost the same number still haven't booked the ski holiday for the upcoming winter season. So that's of course, very interesting. Also glad to see my SkiStar members increased to close to 2 million, increased with almost 13%. Record in ski days, plus 7%, all-time high. We had our doubts we will be ever beat this record we had during the pandemics, but we did. So very glad to have that. And we have invested in a lower level compared to the last 2 years. And like Martin said, a more stable level, and it's very focused on the guest experience, like we have done with new lifts in Hemsedal, Salen and Åre and also automatic snow systems and also glad to have invested in the first, actually, in the world, 100% climate neutral and fossil-free ski destination in the world in SkiStar Hammarbybacken. So super glad. We have presented this digital engagement. And if you look into these numbers, you can see that we are both during the quarter as well during the year, have a high increase actually digital engagement. We have had a little bit of lower conversion rate over the year, but we can see that -- sorry, in the Q4, but over the year, we have had an increase of our conversion rate with 7% and we are actually coming up to 2.7% of the conversion rate, which is a very strong number in those digital terms. Lastly but not least from my side, it's a little bit of the retail growth. We can read in the newspapers. We can hear in the news a lot about that retail has some issues and especially in the sports industry, we are going the opposite way. We are presenting a very strong retail growth, and I'm really proud to show we are coming up to close to SEK 450 million in turnover, and this starts to become a very important business in our portfolio right now. And if we just compare this number to many other retailers, I must say, this is a strong number, both from a growth perspective but also from a size perspective. So Martin, I hand over to you and again talk a little bit more in depth of our numbers.

Thank you, Stefan. So I just started with these financial targets, and I will remind you as the same way as we remind all our employees about these numbers because these are really, really important for us. Moving on to the overview and the development of our operating profit for the full year. We ended up at SEK 740 million, as Stefan just said. And we are -- it's a stable result. The second best, if we look over a 6-year period in time. Yes, we are satisfied with this result. And also it include, as Stefan mentioned, a changed accounting principle around properties in Skiab investment. I will come back to that. And what we have said over the years, and we have talked about it this year as well, we aim to end up between SEK 70 million and SEK 100 million in exploitation capital gains. This year, we managed to reach SEK 67 million. So we were very, very close to the SEK 70 million that we said. Those transactions ended in the fourth quarter mainly in Åre and Salen. So digging to the net sales per category during the quarter. And we can see that we have the strongest growth actually in the retail, as Stefan said, SEK 8 million of those SEK 10 million comes from web, online sales but it's also positive to see that we managed to increase sales in our physical stores with SEK 2 million. We are also happy to see that we continue to grow the SkiPass sales and this increase is driven by the SkiStar All Year. And we see that guests using this card is increasing year-over-year. And for your information, we split the income from the SkiStar all year in 12 months and that's the period that the customer are locked in or using this SkiPass. I also wanted to mention that the accommodation is a bit lower this year, and that is mainly driven by the event in Åre that we had a big event in Åre last year, and we didn't have the same event this year. Also a little bit less bus guests in Hemsedal due to change in travel routes, but we are hoping that they will come back to next summer. Also, you see that we have a loss of -- or losing volume in others. And here, you can see the electricity subsidies that we received last year, SEK 16 million but there is also a changed behavior when it comes to processing of re-invoices, and that amounts to SEK 13 million in that. So we have changed the process around how we re-invoice within SkiStar, meaning that we had SEK 13 million higher invoices and also costs last year compared to this year. So if we adjust for that electricity subsidiaries, we had a growth of 3% this year in the quarter, which is really, really good. Looking at the development of the operating profit. And I guess that most of you have already recognized that we changed the procedure of how we account for properties in Skiab Invest. And if we look at the quarter, we adjusted the Quarter 4 operating profit with a negative effect of minus SEK 8 million last year. And that's mainly because we adjusted the market valuation and also added the full year depreciation of SEK 20 million to last year's results. So there are 2 adjustments that we did in the quarter. We also have, if we move into our operations of ski resorts or -- what do we call it? Operational mountain experience, which decreased SEK 38 million. And here, we see that we had mainly higher maintenance costs and advertising costs in the quarter, and also a little bit higher personnel costs related to the Trysilguidne, the new acquisition that we did in Trysil that added some new activities to Trysil, but also added some personnel costs. Moving to hotel, which -- or sorry, moving to properties and development which decreased the result with minus SEK 10 million. And in this quarter last year, we had a capital gain actually in Skiab Invest of SEK 10 million. So that's one of the effects that we can see here. Otherwise, a quite stable quarter in that. And finally, the development in the hotels, the positive trend that we had in the first 3 quarters continue, a little bit lower sales this quarter, but the continued work with efficient organization in hotels continue, and that's really the reason behind the better result this quarter. So all in all, we end up at minus, a negative operating profit of SEK 279 million. This includes SEK 19 million in increased depreciation or lower result from Skiab Invest. Moving on to sales per category year-to-date. For the full year, we see that we had a positive organic growth of 10% that we already said. SkiPass is the highest contribution to the growth and also retail shop. But it's a positive development in all categories, which is really, really positive to see. And the lower income in others -- in the column others, is related to the changed re-invoicing that is lower this year compared to last year. So moving on to the operating profit by segment. Here, we have adjusted T-H-E last year started at SEK 616 million now. And for you remember, we had SEK 604 million here. So the effect from Skiab and this changed accounting policies has had a positive effect in last year of total SEK 12 million. And this is due to that in last year, we had high revaluation of -- or negative impact from revaluation of fair value of the properties in Skiab. This year, we are adding depreciation, but the effect was really -- the return of the market valuation was higher than the depreciation for the whole year. That's why we have a positive effect of SEK 16 million. And in the SEK 740 million, we have a negative impact of depreciation of SEK 19 million. Here, we had a good growth in the operations amounting SEK 104 million plus. This comes mainly from the increased sales. And we see that we had also a good combination of increased number of guests and price. That's the primary driver for the growth in Mountain operations segment. Looking at Property Development, who delivered a result of minus SEK 7 million lower result than last year. Most of this has to do with a lower property gains, which were SEK 8 million lower than last year. And as I said, we have had a positive trend in the hotel, which is really glad to see that they are getting closer and closer to a zero [indiscernible] or breakeven. Now we ended the year at minus SEK 5 million in operating profit, and they have been able to increase the profit with -- in total SEK 27 million and that is the -- a good cost control in connection with higher sales. That's the reason behind the increase in hotels. Looking at the summary, there are -- we are continuing to build a strong balance sheet. We had a 56% equity ratio if we adjust for IFRS 16. So the balance sheet is strong. And it's also very positive to see that we had a really strong cash flow if we look at the year-to-date or the full year. And we managed to increase our operating cash flow with SEK 450 million, mainly driven by the higher result but also efficient work within capital allocation. And also, we are lowering our financial net debt with SEK 256 million. So net debt-to-EBITDA of 1.7x, which means that we have a good position to start investing and building an even better experience for our guests at our destinations. A few words about sustainability and what we have done during the Q4. We mentioned the skier days and the activity days. Skier days increased by 7% and activity days by 6%. So we had a good growth here, continue to grow those days, which is getting closer and closer to the goal of 7 million activity days and skier days per year. If we move on to ecosystem and impact. This quarter, we have received our first greenhouse gas emission from a lift, the Söderåsen lift that we built in Salen. And we can see that over 50% of the greenhouse gas comes from materials, mainly concrete and steel. That's the main driver to our greenhouse gas and emission when we build lifts. And this quarter, we also had a first meeting in collaboration that we started together with selected industry colleagues where we discuss how we can advance development within sustainability. For those who have followed us in our -- in media, you have seen that we, during this quarter, has started and also finalized our recruit -- recruiting for the coming winter season. And we have almost 2,500 seasonal positions filled during this quarter. So it's really a positive trend that we see in this. And a lot of people are returning, 60% of the seasonal guests are returning. So finally, as we said, both in our sustainable and our strategic initiatives together for white winters, it's really a positive thing and one of our strategic initiatives going forward. So Stefan?

Thank you, Martin, and I will try to give you some outlook and how it looks like with this strategy we have put up. And we are really working according to our strategy to reach our financial targets like, I and Martin have just said, we have had a very good year with plus 10%. And we believe that we will continue to grow according to our financial targets on the growth side. We are really working on our margins. And gladly, we can see that our financial position has been strengthened during the year. So we have a very stable business and we can also see that a lot of people are prioritizing going for a winter ski holiday. And if we then look into the bookings for the upcoming winter season, which has been a question of many and see how can it look like? And if I then look from the stability, we had our record year 2022, '21, '22 when we had this pandemic when people wasn't able to travel. Then we had a bit of dip during the first year of these tough market conditions. Last year now has been very strong with plus 7%. And now we are on to the same level during last year, which is, of course, a very stable result from a historical perspective. And I think that's very important. So we can see that from a long-term perspective. If we then look into the period, which has also been very important since we started to show them a year ago. And we have heard from many of you that they are important. And of course, we have a calendar effect this year that 51 -- week 51 doesn't exist to be so big week, but has changed to be 52 and week 1 will instead of be a strong week. So if we will look into that, we have a very good result that we are minus 2 during this period. It's 1,000 nights. It's not -- nothing to actually talk about. It's very minor and it's very stable during that time. And also, if you look into the period of week 2 to 6, you can see that we continue to grow that period, and we are a little bit lagging behind during the winter breaks. And normally, the winter breaks are the period we are leastly worried about because they are always full. So since we have this pattern, we are really pushing for Eastern, which is coming later this year, and we will also continue to celebrate our 50 years anniversary during the period after the winter breaks since we have a big birthday coming up of 50 years in this business. So as end of this session, we will open up for Q&As and also actually celebrate a bit of best -- second best result ever for the end of the year and also a very stable situation for the upcoming winter. So we hand over to all of you guys for some Q&As.

[Operator Instructions] And your first question comes from the line of Magnus Bernet from Direkt News.

It's about margin and your financial goals. As Martin mentioned during the presentation, you're halfway to the financial targets that should, on average, be 18%. Could you elaborate on when this margin can be reached? Are you expecting a gradual improvement of this margin? And is it possible to reach this already in the current fiscal year?

That's a good question and thank you for that. And as we said at our Capital Markets Day, these goals are on a midterm period. And we are aiming to reach 18%. If we will be able to reach it already next year, it's too early to say, but we are working towards reaching an 18% margin. And is it possible to reach it? That's our -- we believe so that we are able to do it with increased number of international guests, which is one driver, and also continue to the work that increase the average spend per customer and also looking into more cost-efficient ways of driving our business. So I think that's the answer. Do you want to add something, Stefan?

I think also -- very good, Martin. And what we have done, which I think is important that we have added new business like, for example, open up restaurants and that is lower margin than the average. And now we are actually, since we are opening up a new restaurant in Hundfjället this year, we will create a larger volume. And when you create larger volume, we could also be able to put some pressure on the prices, the purchase prices, and that's what we are doing in that sense. And then if you look into our retail business, we also decided not to go into this race of cutting prices, which has been very clear in the market from some competition, and we have decided to stay out of that price raise. So I think that has also helped us to keep up the margins a bit, but we will also continue to improve our margins since we increased the number of sold goods in [ EQPE ], our own brand, and that has also higher margins than average. So we are working on all areas to become better.

Your next question comes from the line of Stefan Stjernholm from Nordea.

A follow-up on the margin question. your midterm target reaching 18%. Is that depending on a better property market? Can you do it without that?

We believe that we can do it without that, Stefan. We believe that in the numbers we have right now, between SEK 70 million and SEK 100 million as we are guiding through. But of course, as more we come up in the higher say, in the higher part of that SEK 100 million, it will become better and we can see that there is -- '24 is still a tough year, but we can see that '25 will open up for some more business in the property side. I think, Martin, would you like to add something there?

No. But it's as Stefan said, when we say that we will reach 18%, it includes property gains of between SEK 70 million and SEK 100 million in that range.

Sounds good. A question on Q4. You write in the report that your summer was somewhat slower than you expected and that it differs how to market the summer season versus the winter season. What's your learning and what can do differently -- be done differently ahead of next summer season?

Yes. I think it's a very good question, Stefan. I think every year now, we are stepping into this, we learn more and more. Gladly, we can see that we have many more visitors actually using biking activities and also this hiking activity and also the sales of these SkiStar All Year is really good for us that we can see an increased part of that side. But when you look into the marketing, we have seen that we must also differ from a customer perspective. We are using our existing customer database to go for marketing activities, but we can also see that there is a potential to go broader in that side. As an example, also, I recently visited Italy for some summer activity destinations and Switzerland last week. And they have a much larger area of guests to -- it's much shorter distance to their destinations than we have. So we need also to be better in the target of both the length of the area of where we find those guests, but also to find another guest than we normally try to work with. So that's type of learning we are learning. And we are all the time growing, but not as fast as I want, but again, we are on the right pace. And if we then clean out this effect of this Q4, we had an increase of 3% in revenue, and we actually had more guests. We had around close to 7% more guests visiting us actually and races in our destinations. So we learn not as fast as I want, but we will be better also in targeting new guests next week -- next summer, sorry.

I see. It sounds good. And the final question for me regarding the bookings, flat year-over-year beginning of October. What's the number for international guests? Is it fair to assume an increase of some 10%?

We have -- yes, -- it is actually -- yes, yes, very good. No. It is actually around -- no, I think it is 8%, I think it is around 8%, Stefan. Now I'm guessing I should not do that. But -- we are -- yes, we are around that level. And the Danish are the ones, which are the largest group, and we can -- you can see that we managed to catch in the Danish guess. It's very early. And now we are seeing that the other ones is booking. And the Swedes have been slow in the start, but we also see that Swedes pacing up. The last -- just -- you can see a very clear difference the last week, you can see how it's increased actually.

Your next question comes from the line of Karl-Johan Bonnevier from DNB Markets.

Yes. Stefan, Martin. Coming back to the booking situation. When I look at the number of mediated beds you now have in your database, it seems to be continue to decrease. And I guess it's Airbnb and maybe Facebook that is then taking share from you. How difficult is that -- what kind of difficult that, that kind of has been created for you when it comes to controlling the clients and driving your total offering towards the client base, if you continue to lose sales of volumes in the mediate business.

Thank you for a very good question, Karl-Johan. And I must say -- we haven't really updated that number of beds. We have actually gained a couple of hundred more beds this year. So it has been a little bit larger base. However, we haven't been or say, I will not use the word may be aggressive, but we haven't been really focusing within our organization. So we are making an organizational change to put more focus onto this area of getting more beds into our system actually to get a little bit better control of that since we also see that guest to book within our system also spend more. So that's why we would like to get them into our system. However, we can also see that this situation in the market where the interest rate has been increased, many more have actually opened up to rent out the beds or rent out the cabin for external people which haven't happened before, which means that this is also an opportunity for us to get more guests even though -- even if we don't get control of them, and I think that's what we saw last year, that we had an increase in our bookings, but we had actually a larger number of guests coming to our destination. So I must say it's positive that we gain more guests. But however, we would like to control them in a better way. So we know a little bit more because then we can plan little bit better also with staff, et cetera. I don't know if that was an answer on your question.

No, it's a good indication. And I guess if you control -- I guess historically, I've talked about controlling maybe 1/3 of the warm beds at the destination or something like that has been enough. But do you see that there would be a bigger opportunity to drive the model, if you could increase that? Or is that sufficient, so to say, to be able to capture what you want to do in the other parts of the businesses?

I think we can increase the revenue. We can increase the revenue per visitor, so to say. That is the positive thing because one of our curves we showed during the call was that -- the red bar was showing booked in our system and the gray bar is showed the revenue booked outside the SkiStar system. So we are managing to sell up more to guests who are booking via the skistar.com versus let's say, Facebook or Airbnb. So that's why it's important also.