Tata Chemicals Limited ($500770)

Good evening, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the Q4 and FY '26 Earnings Conference Call of Tata Chemicals Limited. Please note that this conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] We have with us today R. Mukundan, Managing Director and CEO; and Nandakumar Tirumalai, Chief Financial Officer of Tata Chemicals Limited. Before we begin, I would like to mention that some of the statements made in today's discussion may be forward-looking in nature and may involve risks and uncertainties. I now invite R. Mukundan to begin proceedings of the call.

Thank you. Thank you, Darwin. Good evening, and welcome, everyone, to our Q4 FY '26 earnings call. And I'll start the discussion with a brief overview of industry and then our operational highlights across business and geographies. The demand scenario across geographies, global demand is expected to be broadly flat in the near term, constrained by weak macroeconomic conditions and more specifically amongst all our products, just the soda ash excess capacity. The reset Middle East conflict has driven up the energy and raw material prices, increasing production cost across various parts of the world, especially other than U.S. Also, it has increased our shipping and transportation expenses. Despite these pressures, I think there is no clear evidence as of now at present of demand elution but however, a prolonged contract could begin to gain on demand. India continues to exhibit relatively robust demand growth with higher capacity utilization across all sectors. China and U.S. are witnessing flat demand, mainly in U.S., it's due to the reduced offtake in the container glass segment. The geopolitical risk and ongoing tariff uncertainties continue to cloud the global demand visibility. And this tariff uncertainty is mainly with respect to U.S.-China tariff issues. While the pace of economic recovery is expected to be slow in the year ahead, we do believe Solar Glass and lithium carbonate are expected to continue to drive demand, especially since the world is expected, it would certainly pivot towards more renewable and more natural energy sources. And soda globally would be gaining from this growth in this segment. In terms of supply scenario across geographies, China inventories remain elevated, the market sentiment softened slightly during the quarter. In addition to that, I think while several things happened, the Chinese units did begin to slow down and they carry out their maintenance work. One unit, which is about 800,000 [indiscernible] plant sort of had an expiration of production permit, and it has started to do maintenance work. We also know in U.S., one of the producers with 1.36 million tonne capacity around -- has also mothballed this plant. [ Solvay, ] as we know, already had done about 180,000 tonnes of reduced production from their Spanish plant. And this process is only going to help us to balance the demand-supply equation. In terms of pricing, while in the month of March, there were certain corrections, what did happen towards the end of March, the prices saw a slight increase to compensate for energy and raw material prices and higher shipping costs. U.S. domestic prices remained flat. China spot export offers remained steady between 150 and 170 and resulted in Southeast Asia prices remaining unremunerative, especially for the U.S. producers. Overall, pricing is expected to remain range bound and react to mainly the energy cost increases, which some of the producers may pass on. Now I will move to operational highlights. In terms of the consolidated performance, the revenue was down by 2% at INR 3,438 crores compared to previous year. It was offset -- the lower exports from U.S. was offset by higher volumes in India. EBITDA was at INR 274 crores compared to INR 327 crores Q4 last year, mainly on account of subdued prices across all geographies. An exceptional charge of INR 1,837 crores is provided on account of impairment of goodwill in U.S. and INR 159 crores of deferred tax write-off. This tax write-off is expected to be reviewed once the unit starts making profits. Profit after tax before exceptional item was negative INR 279 crores compared to negative INR 12 crores last year. Net debt without leases as on March 31 stood at INR 5,961 crores. In terms of stand-alone, the revenue from operations stood at INR 1,254 crores, up 3% compared to previous year same quarter. EBITDA at INR 216 crores was down by 6% due to lower realization. And profit after tax from continuing operations was INR 48 crores, down 51% from Q4 of last year. During the year -- during the quarter, we acquired [ NovaBay ] Singapore. This acquisition was completed on 19th March 2026. In addition to this, 50 kilotonnes of electric calciner soda ash in Kenya was operational. Unit-wise, in India, the non- -- in India, Gujarat facility achieved 1 million tonnes of soda ash production. The performance is higher compared to previous year. However, price drop was offset by higher volume due to -- mainly due to higher volumes. Drop in EBITDA is due to increase in fixed costs compared to previous year. U.S. export volumes were lower and Southeast Asia market realizations were under. And I spoke about the impairment charge and the deferred tax write-offs recognized in the books. U.K. has lower revenue due to lower volumes, partly offset by pricing, PBT is higher than previous year. Increase in volumes in Dania was partially offsetting the lower realization Singapore acquisition, as I mentioned, was completed during the quarter. Rales saw an overall revenue growth of 6%, volume growth of 5% and price growth of 1%, driven the growth in both crop care and seed business. Overall, when you look at the context of strategy, the non-cores revenue grew 14% from INR 6,118 crores in FY '25 to INR 6,946 crores in FY '26. This is in line with company's focus to grow noncyclical business and non-sales business. In conclusion, geopolitical developments since investor shops in late February have led to disruption in supply chain. These have resulted in higher costs. This impact has been varied across geographies. However, overall sales performance remains steady. Management is focused on reinforcing supply chain planning, maintaining cost discipline, improving operational ability to address near-term disruptions. Our priorities remain firmly aligned to protecting margin, reserving cash flows and maintaining balance sheet strength. We also continue to adopt a very disciplined approach to capital allocation, and we want to ensure resilience through this current phase of cycle. We would be focusing on growing nonpotash revenue in line with long-term strategic objectives. With that, I close my comments and hand it back to the moderator to listen for Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Saurabh Jain from HSBC.

Can you please explain in a bit on the disruptions that you're noticing because of the Middle East context in particular, how is it impacting your raw material sourcing across your regions? And any outlook you would have that if the context stretches from here? Can it materially impact your availability to procure the [indiscernible]

Thank you, Suarab. I think firstly, I would say that U.S. operations remains largely insulated from these disruptions. The U.K. operation also largely insulated because the key element for them is the line with the from then from their own time kind of wells. In addition to that, they did see some increase in spike in the unhedged portion of the gas, but there's only a price issue, not an availability issue. And part of that price increase, we have also informed the customers and have also made the requisite changes there. With respect to India, India thankfully has been working with imported coal mainly from Indonesia, which is not disrupted. It's continuing as we speak. Of course, there's a movement in pricing for which we have taken a cost for which we've taken price changes. Our biggest issue in India has been mainly the availability of imported limestone. While we have article stock, we've also moved to blended domestic and imported limestone, which is enabling us to run the unit well. And at least we don't see any big issues for the next 3 months. I would say amongst all the units, the one which probably we need to watch closely in the [indiscernible] unit which depends on -- as of now, I think they've got about 40 days of supply. We are monitoring this closely. And for it comes from Middle East and we need to ensure that we have alternate sources about which we're working through the system. So all in all, I think, except for one key element, which is HFO, which is bought for Kenya, all of the units are absolutely safe and some from the input disruptions. The big issue for us, which we are trying to monitor is while you have passed on the cost increases to customers, would any of our customers be under pressure in terms of the impact on this crisis. Up to now, we have not seen it in the marketplace, but we remain completely watched too long an account.

Understood. So also have any ammonia needs in our domestic media manufacturing?

Yes, I think there has been a notification on ammonia. I'm glad you brought that out because while it is a very small quantity, it is nonetheless a quantity, which is cycled through in terms of one tanker for every 15 days or so. And up to now, we have adequate supply. We are able to source in the market. But I think the fertilizer units have been advised not to supply to non fertilizer users. We retain the government that is order is going to impact all of us. As of now, we are fine. But I think we're gone monitoring it, and we also saw a government will look into this. It's about 1% of the entire ammonia consumption in the country. And hence, to not disrupt the fertilizer for the farmers. But at the same time, it will be -- this we made available to the industry. As freely as it was before, I think we wouldn't have any issues with respect to any of our production challenges in India.

Understood. That is very helpful. Related question will be that you talked about contention you are noticing in different action facilities across the region? Can you also give us some sense what kind of price hikes you would have taken in different regions? And also whether all of the raw material cost indication that you would have been noticing now, does it also need more price hikes or [indiscernible] factor?

In terms of the price impact, I think for the cost impact, if you look at U.S., it's mainly in the diesel which is used in the diesel vehicles, which we run in the plant for mobile units, which are there. And overall, in the cost structure, it is not a big number. And we are more or less hedged in terms of our gas. So I don't think there's going to be a big issue there. We are certainly doing is the shipping costs have increased or to our customers who -- to win when we ship them, these are being passed on to customers in a very transparent manner. We are not doing beyond what is a cost increase. In terms of U.K., certainly, we have informed the customers. But the issue in U.K. why I'm not commenting is our unhedged portion actually moves on a daily basis. So if I take a day where the spike is high, then it will look like the position is uncovered, and we are not recovering fully. If I pick another day where it is. So I think we would rather wait for a month or so to say, whether the cost price increase is fully covering the cost are not. As of now, on a weighted average basis, it does cover, but we're not only at the end of -- as we move along in the direction move forward. As far as India is concerned, again, we've covered the cost increases fully. Whatever we had in terms of the energy costs as well as the additional cost to get the transport material from the markets both in Indonesia and in the Middle East for limestone and coal, respectively. So all in all, in all places, we have been able to pass on the increase. Kenya too has done the same. But in Kenya, it's not a price issue. It's an availability issue, which we are working through. And as I mentioned, we are hopeful the next shipment will enable us to go beyond the 45-day cover we have today.

Understood. Another related question would be that if the RM cost kind of don't really kind of increase from here, is it a fair assumption that the margins that we delivered in [indiscernible] those are the bottom margins? And if the costs don't increase materially from here, there is a possibility that we could do better on the profitability or you still would believe some sort of margin pressure could sustain in the 1Q as well.

So I can only speak about what we have witnessed up to now, and this is something which could change in the future. I think we are fully covered. And as far as the numbers are concerned, I think they should reflect what we've seen -- going forward, if something happens dramatic that we cannot engage we have to probably come to and talk to all the analysts and investors. But as of now, we are fully covered. What we are watching is the Kenyan situation.

Understood. Okay. And are you also noticing any information from your customers to try to ask for to shift away from the short-term contract into the midterm contract soda ash. Any that kind of excitement are you noticing any of those lines?

All I can say is that customers have become now more sensitive to domestic sourcing because they have realized the difficulty of depending on imports. So we are seeing witnessing I can say, especially in India. Those who are importing have certainly have made a request to us to increase the allocation because their view is that going forward, they would like to reduce the dependency on imports, while they will maintain a share of imports versus domestic supply. The realization that they would not want to take a risk on the imported material is a positive on the market front.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question comes from the line of Sumant Kumar from Motilal Oswal. .

My question is for U.S. Sequentially, we have seen an improvement in EBITDA, okay, from lost profit -- so can we say this is because of you have cut down your export where you are making losses? And also, it is so what is the mix of domestic sales for U.S. and export?

You're right. I think broadly, you would -- you're attributing to not selling in the unremunerative market. which today for us is mainly Southeast Asia. That is what has happened during the quarter.

And regarding fuel cost, in this quarter, to what extent will have an impact because of higher sale cost in the market? Across Europe?

No. In terms of cost, I think we have no impact at all. I think -- because usually, we have different levels of stock and different positions of hedging. For example, in India, we usually carry 3 to 4 months of stock and I think that more or less, we would help us to work through. And I think if at all, any increases come through going forward. So we do know the coming shipments are going to be expensive. So we have actually spoken to customers and taken the corrective actions there. As far as U.S. is concerned, as I mentioned, the gas is fully hedged, and I think we are keeping a watch on those prices. Our biggest issue continues to be in Kenya, where I think while we have a cover for beyond that cover, I think we have to buy at the market rate, and the market rate has actually shot up quite a bit in terms of going up almost to 50% to 60%, which we will -- which we are engaged with customers and have informed them. And we are dealing with in a very transparent basis.

Our next question comes from the line of Vivek Rajamani from Morgan Stanley.

You did mention that we are seeing a few closures or some capacity ticking in dementia you did good examples. -- or the capacity in the U.S. and in China. Just with respect to that, could you just talk about how sodas have started to change if they have because of the conflict. And if you could see some relief with respect to some of the regions potentially slowing their exports or you could see some belief in terms of pricing, which you were obviously suffering because of the dumping that was happening. So are you starting to see some sort of relief because of these flows? Or do you expect that to kind of happen over the next couple of quarters?

See, I think what we are certainly seeing is the imports have slowed down. They have become almost half of what it used to be pre conflict. And that's a net effect, the result of the slowing down of exports with Iran was doing as well as Delfin was coming through the Red Sea. I think those 2 have certainly slowed also the movement from other exporters that reduced during the period because I'm talking about the first month of April, what we are -- but this trend is likely to continue in our view. So certainly, in India, we are seeing an impact of -- and also customers are also very clearly wanting to have a higher share of domestic supplies. I think that's what we can say. In terms of any other pressure point in terms of prices coming down, which is actually going up because shipping costs have increased. So the landed cost in India has gone up because of our shipping cost.

I'm sure, sir. That's clear. But it will also be fair to say that the increase is clearly a cost to an exercise. So margins will perfectly have to wait for a bit longer to kind of tenet -- would that be a fair statement?

It would vary between market to market, but it's a fair statement. Also, there's a play which will happen because of rupee depreciation. That also brings in a natural protection for the Indian market. So you'll see all these efforts play out. So we do believe that it's going to be positive for domestic producers and domestic sales in every part of the world.

Sure, sir. And just one last clarification on U.K. you were reporting positive numbers for the last 3 quarters. Could you just explain what happened this time around with respect to EBITDA?

Yes. This time, the main decision which we have taken was there are certain operational changes, which we had to do with respect to our product and product production and capability and capacity. We report shutdown which was planned in April into the month of March. This was done proactively to our better than next year. And that's the impact you're seeing in terms of numbers. Otherwise, if you go back to the normal number. In fact, because of the repointing of the maintenance, we do believe that we'll have much better operating parameters than what we had before.

Our next question comes from the line of Ankur Periwal from Axis Capital.

First question, in your opening remarks, you did highlighted some plants either going for a longer for maintenance or not rolling -- does it change the overall demand/supply dynamics given the incremental supply that was coming from China?

No, I think you see the point which I want to highlight on China is that their inventories are fairly high even today. The inventories are close to 1.5 million to 1.8 million tonnes, but it's been stable. I think unless the stock levels come down, we cannot see the major impact flowing through to market. So we will sort of highlight this inventory level in every quarter. As of now, I think it's pretty range bound, as I highlighted. The Chinese prices, while they do show an increase in dollar terms. In the renminbi terms, they have remained more or less flat at about [indiscernible] per ton.

Sure, sir. And just a follow-up there. There was an expectation that probably the synthetic the older plants in China may see a shutdown with this natural sort of production increasing. Any updates, anything on that side? Or it's still the same capacity? SPEAKER01

It's the same capacity, but they are running. Many of them are taking a maintenance closure and many of them running at a lower utilization. But clearly, what I would say is that the early signs are that we are beginning to see some movement but it's not today of a number, which is of a substantial nature to sort of highlight. So I would certainly say that it is beginning and the numbers are also showing -- we also looked at the listed companies and their financial numbers, where operating parameters are under financial industries.

Sure, sir. And just lastly, on our -- the cash flow generation from the business. We have seen a sharp dip in operating cash flows, which is, in a way, being led by the working capital decline as well -- sorry, increase as well. . So any thoughts there? How should 1 look at the cash flow generation across the businesses? Or is there any 1 entity which is impacting the overall company's cash flow? So your comments over there?

No, I think fundamentally, we have to ensure that we exit from under the negative market, which we have done. I think barring for last quarter, we did do one shipment to Southeast Asia, which was unremunerated because there's already a pre-existing contract. Other than that, we have now stopped it. So we would only see this improve going forward. And also, since we are focusing more on domestic and the proportion is mostly higher with domestic, you would also find that the working capital cycle improved and that should also release some cash.

The next question is from the line of Rohit Nagraj from 360 ONE Capital.

The first question is in terms of the increase in operating costs, given that we are said from the inventory but generally taking increase in the sale cost as well as the logistic cost, what would be the increase in OpEx across our core facilities given that if the new high-cost utilities come into play?

I can't give a specific number. All I can say is that the logistic cost on the output side is mostly a part for customers because they do -- it's part of the contractual arrangement, which we have whereas the input cost increases, what I said, we've already transparently communicated to customers and passed on those increases. And all the units, it's been more or less been at par with what our cost increase has been, except in U.K. where I said, because of the fluctuating gas prices, we are not able to pin down, but on an average, it is fully passed on to the customers.

Sure, sure. And second question is, you talked about multiple capacities getting in shutdowns or probably extended shutdowns. Has this happened particularly post to the conflict? Or was it -- it happens before that? I mean just to get the understanding about what all capacities have been shut or how much capacity has been shut post-conflict earlier was I think he is not there in the system.

Yes. I think most of them have initiated this process, I think, pretty conflict, conflict is only broadly may have accelerated their decision. So I would not -- because we are talking about a period in quarter where the conflict was the visible effort started to show itself towards the end of March. So really, I think this is a conflict issue. We are monitoring the situation, and we'll give a better update in terms of post-conflict what are the changes in the next quarter results call.

The next question comes from the line of Arjun Khanna from Kotak Mutual Fund. .

My first query is on our new CapEx plan. So we have enumerated almost INR 15 crores of additional CapEx. Could you help us with what kind of IRR we expect to generate on this project? These 4 projects?

Sorry, I think if you look at the capacity expansion, which is which is INR 100 crores will come on stream immediately in about 12 to 14 months' time. This return is expected to be in the upwards of 20%, which is a cut off, and we -- and this is -- this was a debottlenecking on our current brand because we do believe the current steel capacity we can produce more, and the market needs more every year. The precipitated silica plant is undergoing review detailed revenue in terms of various elements. But if this CapEx was that is sustained, this will be towards anywhere between 15% to 20% at the low end or 20% at the higher end. The dense is actually repurposing of our existing plant. So the bulk of the expenditure is not repurposing. And this probably is going to be the least cost [indiscernible] built anywhere. And we would be exiting after the decision is taken from our time business, and we'll be using the same facilities to make cash. And volume come by the same open gain is in the range of 20%.

So sir, just on the indiscernible] if 1 looks at the intensity, it is almost a capital intensity is 2x of that of Metapod. So why would IRR be 20% unless the selling price is double?

No. I think the big issue which I want to highlight is the run installed cost structure production cost is one element, but the logistic cost is equally. So what we will be saving in this is primarily the southern markets, and we have mapped out the southern markets can take easily there. So what we will probably have a slightly higher capital cost is more than offset by the logistic cost, which we'll be saving.

Sure. And we generally sell this to a group company, right, Tata Consumer. So in terms of our contracts, is it on a cost-plus basis? I know in during the time of demerger, we had mentioned, has there been any change in the agreement since then? And what are we currently making on related party transactions?

Now all this is part of the same structure, and we are continuing to do exactly as we've been approved by the Board, and our arraignments remain the same. And this has also been reviewed by the management of Tata Consumer and -- which is one of the reasons we are going ahead with.

So just to understand, for the Iodized salt, we are looking at 15% to 20% IRR for these projects. Obviously, soda ash will be very remunerative. And just on the precipitated silica plant, so current HTS prices and if you look at various grades, it seems to be at around INR 80 a kilo. So I don't get how you'd be making 15% to 20% margins.

Sorry, on...

On the Catalon facility.

I think, see, the big difference is that we are in South India, and silica is a very bulk commodity and logistic cost is extremely high. We are the only unit which will be in South West units on there's a trade cost difference between them, and we are supplying only the entire industry.

Sure. Maybe I'll take this later. Just a follow-up. And the last question is, given that we have taken a write-down of goodwill in the U.S., given soda ash prices, does that mean that, logically, we won't be undergoing any CapEx in the U.S. market?

No, indeed, we have made it clear that our CapEx for the soda ash business is going to be only when the cycle returns and we are very clear about it. And the capacity, which we spoke about encash repurposing of the existing plant other than that, we have no other plans in terms of investment there. Our investments are fundamentally focused on non-soda ash businesses, which is bicarbonate, salt and [indiscernible] and various ore chemicals, and that's what we're focusing because this is -- the cycle is still not complete. Only when we get a very clear sign that the cycle is shifting starting.

And our net debt ex leases close to INR 6,000 crores, how do you see that play out over the next year? What CapEx do we have lined up for FY '27?

Yes, around the INR 1,000 crores can for next year are June and next year, we expect the debt to remain at all at similar levels because the pressure on the business is there for actual also broadly. So we expected that to be more or less at similar levels at current year March ending politics. Your change in CapEx now

And what spending this INR 1,300 crores on?

See, mostly on maintenance CapEx we have in both Vitapro and U.S., plus some CapEx from [indiscernible] and some capital in Singapore, we acquired a company recently. So broadly is maintenance CapEx in all geographies, mainly [indiscernible] U.S. and growth CapEx in South.

The next question is from the line of Abhijit Akella from Kotak Securities. .

Just 2 from my side. One is with regard to that was conducted for the U.S. operations. Did that cover the mining rights assets also that are part of the U.S. books? I believe those are fairly large amount.

Yes. I talk about that See, the U.S. cap, there's no 1 thing. So there's only a India, India of a concept there's only a goodwill in the U.S. books. So Manitex's only in the India and the IFRS part here. So we only impact the goodwill and not the mining rights. So $208 million is the impairment of goodwill, which is there. The running rice remains intact. U.S. gap, there's no money is only goodwill.

Okay. But the mining rights also offset in terms of the value that they're carrying at this point in time by the value?

Yes. We are intact. See, we value our entire business as a whole, and then we see what is the motion. Shortfall first, we lack of goodwill. This 208 is only goodwill, which means the mining taxes are intact in the India's books. And we are depreciating the margin here. Yes, over 100 years based upon the life -- so we take a cup every year, 100 for the last 10 years now going forward. That is a gradual drop on that based upon the bundle left over. So broadly, that's the way we look at things here.

Okay. Got it. And just the other one on the silica plant at Cade, the INR 75 crore investment, -- so would it be possible to just help us with the bad expected revenues and maybe EBITDA from that project, the 50,000 tonnes we are putting?

We will do it off-line. We can't talk about that here, and we'll do a separately -- the next call will update you watching all our people. I thought it's very early stages now here, but we'll talk about more about that maybe in the Q1 quarterly call.

Okay. But I mean 20% ROCE would mean something like, say, INR 150 crores odd of earnings EBIT from that project? Would that be a fair assessment?

We walk based upon those numbers, and we will talk more about that maybe the end of Q1. And the first man is done based upon the market view of what's going to happen. And if you look at this plan, there's no incremental fixed costs. It's the same plant only would have there. So these will go into the same book going to ago capacities. And therefore, the fixed cost would remain the same. So we get operating leverage there. And therefore, you'll be ending up on in more EBITDA per tonne. That's a broad concept. It's not a greenfield. It's more like a -- within the same location, adding more machines to their people being more or less constant.

Yes, it is in the range. So it's broadly in the range yes. obviously.

Yes. Because I mean the INR 725 crores is all incremental CapEx, right?

[indiscernible]

The next question is from the line of Arthur from ICICI Prudential Mutual Fund. Our next question comes from the line of Saket Kapur from Kapur.

Yes. Sir, firstly, what are the signs of the incremental demand from the or the solar at glass manufacturer, particularly some new capacities were anticipated to commercialize for the current financial year? And what's the outlook going here, especially from the solar glass? And then, sir, the update on the reinitiation of the antidumping duty says what's the update on the same? This is my question.

So I think the ADD is -- the thing which has been investigated along with Artis also safeguard duty which will have quantity restricts and that's what the government is looking at rather than just duty on. They also want to get the quantity restrictions in place. The second piece is on the solar plus. I think it's safe to assume that when the solar glass units are running, we would be anywhere between approximately 7,00,000 tonnes of demand every month for the tens incrementally during the initial period. But we'll come back to the exact specific I know how the demand is going to grow as each one of the units comes on stream.

So as this program outlined by the solar blade manufacturer, what is the anticipated demand? Have you worked out a number on the same? I think the big...

Which is the main reason we are doing this unit in the conversion of dense plants and turn plant to encash plant is to cover that demand. We do expect at least 50% utilization as it comes on stream and the balance with the growth, which is where we are doing the recessing of the cement unit.

Okay. And sir, currently, with the type of geopolitical are played out and imported material in what kind of -- how are the imports being affected on a monthly decrease from the other geographies into the country?

Yes. I think broadly, one would say that anywhere between 70,000 to 80,000 tonnes or 1 lakh tonne was imports, depending on which month you pick up, but that has reduced to half.

And those are supporting the domestic volumes and from the it is being supplied by the domestic players?

That is how we are setting that is what has happened, and there's the increased focus on the domestic players, and we are supporting the Indian customers as well as we can from the teens the plays that.

And sir, in terms of this as part of the story, how is the sodium by cargo demand currently shifting up and what are our utilization levels in terms of the same?

I want to have the exact number of how much -- what percentage of our output goes there. We increase our output from about had 40,000 tonnes to 200,000 tonnes in India. It is fully sold out now. And with the increased production from power from coal-fired plants, this demand is going to continue to grow. And it's the biggest buyers, of course, NTPC, and we do work with them very closely.

Last point is the rate and folding charges. When you look at the stand-alone numbers, the volume increase is I think compat INR1,000 met whereas the freight and forwarding target has gone up from INR 148 crores to INR 166 crores. And similarly, the employee benefit costs have also risen significantly from INR 67 crores to INR 84 crores. So what explains these to [indiscernible]

So the employee one is the year-end adjustments which we make. I think if you be ideal if we took the full year number, which is INR 295 versus 3 months on the employee side, and on the freight side, do you want to get that number?

We have come back on that separately. Will have numbers off in.

Okay. It is 10% or I think so it's a higher amount, INR 20 crores, yes, more than that.

From INR 150 crore to INR 160 crore where the volume has not risen come into it to that -- so that was the reason.

And sir, partly in the non-soda revenue, what are we including in this INR 6,000 crores is a part of what is the major item that we had?

Everything other than potash, fundamentally, bicarbonate, salt silicon FS growing chlorine, cement, also sales, all that is included in this.

Thank you. We have no further questions, ladies and gentlemen. I would now like to hand the conference over to R. Mukundan for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Thank you for joining the call today. It's been a difficult quarter and a difficult operating environment. But I think what we are focused on disciplined execution, strengthening the supply chain responsiveness, maintaining strict cost and cash flow discipline. Reinforce the portfolio action in terms of moving towards a higher percentage of non-soda business. These actions taken over the next few quarters will improve further the outcomes in terms of margin and profitability. Our commitment to customer service and operational continuity, especially in the current times, remains very focused our long-term value creation remains one of the key drop agendas, which we have for that. We have experienced team, which is well positioned to manage the current uncertainties and continue to deliver sustainable performance for all shareholders. Thank you, and see you all for the Q1 portfolios.

Thank you. On behalf of Tata Chemicals Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you all for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines.