TXT e-solutions S.p.A. (TXT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to the conference call, during which our CEO, Daniele Misani, will present the 2025 preliminary results, focusing on revenues and EBITDA. During this call, Daniele will show and comment the fourth quarter of the year results together with an overview of the full year. And there will be also a section dedicated to current and subsequent events with a focus on the current AI trend and the positioning of TXT within this context. I would like to remind you 2 things. First of all, this call follows the publication of preliminary results and will mainly focus on these 2 main KPIs, while on the 12th of March, there will be the full disclosure following the Board of Directors approving the 2025 results. So the full scope of the financial will be presented on the 12th. And on the 13th of March, there will be a conference call to provide more details and comments on the full year results, including profit and loss and balance sheet and cash flow. At the end of the call or at the end of the presentation, there will be also a Q&A section. So for any questions you might have, please drop such questions into the Q&A section, and we will answer at the end of the call. I will now let Daniele comment the results of -- the preliminary results of the year and see you later for the Q&A section. Thank you for your attention.

Thank you very much, Andrea, and welcome, everybody, to this call to disclose, let's say, the results of 2025, top line and margins. So the first -- the results of the year are very positive. So we record another, let's say, record results with respect to the history of TXT Group. In particularly, the results of the year were driven by a very strong Q4. For the seasonality of our business, so also in the past years, Q4 is the strongest quarter within the business of TXT Group. And in particular, 2025 was very strong in terms of growth. Revenues coming from fourth quarter is EUR 130 million plus 33% with respect to the same quarter of the previous year. So very strong results in terms of top line. The organic growth, in particular like-for-like basis for this quarter is very strong, 20% adjusted with respect to the release of one-off activity we did last year with a plus EUR 17 million like-for-like perimeter. So it's very strong results in a period in which the pressure about activities like the activities we do is high also for competition. So this show the strengthness of our, let's say, strategy and also the result of Q4 contributed a lot in order to improve the overall year results. EBITDA just for the fourth quarter is almost EUR 20 million, so EUR 19 with a growth of 70% on the like-for-like basis. This is good because, let's say, the EBITDA, the margins increased better with respect to the turnover. So this means that our strategy to focus on high-value services and on our Smart Solutions portfolio has an improvement overall for the mix of, let's say, margins contribution from the different divisions that drives the overall growth of the TXT Group. Looking to the full year, so historical result of almost EUR 400 million in turnover, EUR 394 million with a growth overall of 30% with respect of the last year on a reported basis. Solid organic growth. So by the dismissal of one-off activities, the core business, so the main activities of the group increase of 12%, almost EUR 40 million more than the same perimeter of the last year. So it's a strong boost in terms of market positioning and, let's say, value of our complex solution towards a market that is appreciating our approach and our, let's say, value proposition. EBITDA also is a historical result, reaching EUR 60 million total EBITDA reported for 2025 with a 53% increase with respect to the past. So as you see, also the EBITDA margin tested also at the same -- at the level that we are planning in our 3 years industrial plan with a record of 15% EBITDA margin due mainly to the different mix of activities with respect to the past year and the dismissal of low margins and not focused activities substituted by high-value projects and high-value solutions for our customers. The contribution of the growth overall, let's say, is distributed among the different segments of our offering and in particular, is focused on the high-value, let's say, services and high-value platforms that we convey to the market. If you look at Software Engineering is growing 23% and today is 60% of the overall business of TXT. The important sickness come from the Digital Advisory and especially from the Smart Solutions division that grew 37% is Digital Advisory and 45% Smart Solutions division. So with an increase of positioning of our solution into the market. If you look at the growth on a pro forma perimeter, so looking to the data we provided during the Capital Markets Day last year. So the pro forma total turnover was EUR 360 million, including the acquisition that we added at the end of the year. And so overall, there is a growth on the pro forma basis of 10%, so in line with the industrial plan. And this 10% is on top of the recovery of the dismissed activity of the last year. So if we look to the different segments, so the Software Engineering part that did some activities of reselling is growing but slower than the other division as for the strategic plan. Instead, the Digital Advisory and the Smart Solutions are increases above 20% year-by-year, so on the pro forma basis. So this is a strong result in terms of positioning of our value proposition into the market. Looking to EBITDA, the overall growth brings us from EUR 39 million in 2024 to the EUR 60 million of 2025 with a growth in every segment, especially the strongest one was the Smart Solutions contribution going from EUR 12.4 million to EUR 20.9 million, so almost EUR 21 million during the year. Also, there is much -- Software Engineering part, even if it's not growing so fast in terms of top line for the strategic decisions had a contribution stronger in terms of EBITDA. So not growing with a flat growth. We had a 53% increment of EBITDA margin. So it's a strong result in terms of efficiency of delivery and the focus of strategic programs with respect to volume-based programs that doesn't contribute so strongly in terms of margins. Also, the Digital Advisory is growing from EUR 7 million to EUR 9 million, 28% of growth. We continue to invest. So as you know, we expand all the R&D that we, let's say, invest in, especially for the Smart Solutions part. The total spending for investment in our proprietary platform is EUR 23 million with a growth of 56% with respect to the same, let's say, perimeter of the last year. And the contribution of the Smart Solution is coming also of the strong investment because we want to position ahead of the competition with innovative solution, including, let's say, the latest technology to give an edge with respect also to the competition. EUR 93 million are coming from Smart Solutions business with a growth of 45%. So this investment has a return also in the short term, but for us are very important to keep stability on the business and long-term engagement with our customer base. International revenue are EUR 65 million, so 16% of the total revenues. We grow a lot, especially on the domestic market for the Public Sector. Still the most international business, mainly Aerospace & Defence is growing faster. In terms of, let's say, also incidents by industry. So looking to the contribution of the different vertical in which we are present, according to the strategic plan, we are growing in the, let's say, more, let's say, strategic domain because we are also shifting some activities or some workforce in order to capture opportunities in this domain, especially Public Sector and Aerospace & Defence are recording a very strong growth. So 17% for the Aerospace, 22% for the Public Sector. And today, let's say, the incidents in 2025 pro forma of these 2 vertical is almost half of the business of the overall TXT Group. In terms of, let's say, the other domain, everybody is growing. So also MarTech that is the new one also under pressure. We recorded a very good 10% growth year-by-year by keeping the same incidents in the industry in our, let's say, portfolio, keeping the incidents is also the Fintech domain with a growth of 7%. Fintech is growing, let's say, a little bit slower because we did a lot of investment and the first results has been captured in the last quarter. But still, there is a good, let's say, forecast for the next few years in order to continue to grow faster. Also the industrial with new investment, especially in IoT business is growing faster also than the expectation with a plus 13%. And in terms of, let's say, stability is the Telco business that is recorded -- reported minus 12%. But because this business was considered including the one-off activities that we decided not to push again. And excluding these activities flat with respect to the last year. But the incidence is reducing to the total turnover of the group. So let's say, the growth are also in line with the strategic goals we put in our industrial plan. And so we are very proud to continue in line with our strategy and to make grow the more demanding and more strategic industries in which we can have a faster positioning and a stronger positioning also for the next few years. Looking a little bit to the, let's say, overall business that we are, let's say, addressing also the guidance that we gave during the industrial plans is confirmed. So -- and specifically for the next year -- this year, so 2026, we are giving a guidance internally to our management to reach an EBITDA more than EUR 65 million for the 2026. That is, let's say, quite reachable because the backlog and the activities that are already ongoing over all the industry we are covering, and organic growth in line with the industrial plan, so almost 10%. That means EUR 40 million with respect to the total turnover of this year. And let's say, we are continuing in our M&A plan. So 2025 was a little bit slowdown in terms of new acquisitions. So we did an important strategic acquisition in North America at the end of the year. But let's say, we moved our team dedicated to M&A in order to capture opportunity that will be closed during Q1 and Q2 of 2026. We expect to consolidate from the pipeline of M&A that we have, let's say, in our portfolio, at least EUR 6 million in 2026. The targets that we are looking for as a contribution of EBITDA margin around 12% and 15%. So there will be, let's say, a little change maybe in the mix of activities with respect to the results of 2025. Still, we are targeting to overcome the -- to go further than the EUR 70 million total EBITDA value for the 2026. So still ambitious targets for us. We know that there is, let's say, uncertainty about the business. We will give you some, let's say, ideas and some, let's say, flavor of the business that we are doing in order to meet this ambitious goal. In terms of business evolution and mid- long-term vision, I want to spend a few minutes speaking about, let's say, the AI wave that had an impact strongly on the capital markets, especially on the technology valuation that was corrected by, let's say, the news coming from evolution of AI technology. Especially, as you know, let's say, most of the stock price of the companies working into IT, especially the Software-as-a-Service business mainly were, let's say, impacted in the last month according to the new reports and, let's say, the scenario that is opening about AI. Of course, the first to be addressed where a company with a strong, let's say, position as a software vendor for Software-as-a-Service solution. That, let's say, mainly are, let's say, the main concerns are related to the companies selling software to enterprises, to IT, especially the ones with CRM, ERP or, let's say, software solution related to enterprise functions that will be impacted by new agents, AI-based that will probably substitute this kind of, let's say, business for sure, has an impact of the business model. So the way this company will grow and will continue to deliver their own solutions to the market. And of course, not only the software vendors were impacted, but also the service vendor related to this kind of business. And then also the reports open up new scenarios also broader in which, let's say, the risk is not related only on software companies, but is related to the overall service sector because, let's say, one of the scenarios is that this kind of software can substitute white collars in general. So the impact, of course, will be a possible disruption, not only to the software vendor market, but to the overall market because a number of layoffs are coming probably in order to reduce costs of big company and to meet also the expectation of, let's say, some companies that has to report margins. And so people substituted by technology can open up a spiral in which, let's say, less -- more people will be out from the previous job they had, more technology will be added. And in this case, there will be a problem overall for the, let's say, major economies that whose, let's say, business is based on services. This, let's say, wave of changes in the stock exchange comes from a situation that was known also before. So if you remember, probably the CEO of Microsoft already announced in late 2024, so 1 year before the market in terms of capital market has this impact that the Software-as-a-Service business need to be changed because this change in technology related to agents. And tech giants are already moving since a while. So it's not something that they discover today, but it's that they are looking for new business models and new activities in order to capture the new opportunities and to evolve according to the market scenario that is changing. Of course, high uncertainty remains, especially regarding the because there is a potential to substitute some roles, but the main uncertainty is related to the window of timing of this kind of change because there are many barriers besides the technology. So the technology is running very fast, but there are many barriers that are related to regulation, organizational transition times because adding new technology to big organization takes time. And of course, there is, let's say, a barrier related to the risk management because changing business model from people to technology, from outsourcing to in-house activities is something that takes time and takes also strong decisions in terms of risk management. So there are some barriers that will slow down, let's say, the very fast technology changes that are coming. So we move in high uncertainty. What is doing TXT as a group in this phase, of course. Like the big players, we are already moving in order to adapt and focus ourselves to a possible change of scenario. The main point that I want to highlight is that TXT is moving and the strategy is focused to be -- to have a presence in highly regulated and complex markets. So as I said before, let's say, half of the business is related to Aerospace & Defence and Public Sector where we -- in both, let's say, segments, we are involved in very complex and critical projects, of which, let's say, of course, this presence is a sort of derisking in terms of business continuity because these kind of markets are highly regulated. There is still value for the knowledge, not only for the technology itself and there's a long cycle in terms of change management. Our, let's say, role in this area is strong today. We want to maintain this position and to capture opportunity in order to continue to grow. Result of 2025 goes in this direction. These 2 segments growth more than -- more or less 20%. Our focus then is particular because we are a provider of proprietary technologies and service-based knowledge-based activities to customers. Our focus is in the mission-critical and business-critical solution. We work for the core business of the main customers. We are, let's say, a very small part that is involved. So we are not a company that is working IT for IT. So we speak to the business. We do IT for business, and we contribute in the creation of the main products of our customers that are all large enterprises. Our business model has always been since many years, focused not on headcounts, not providing people, but providing complex solution. So we want to continue on this path is already bringing results, and we think that is a strong value in order to continue and to get also an age with respect to the competition. Then we worked a lot in the last few years to diversify and to have a distinctive offering with respect to the market. So in particular, we are engaged since many years in providing vertical solutions. So our software should be seen not like, let's say, a commodity in some way, but very specific and specialist software dedicated to the business of the customer. And our AI native and AI-enhanced platform, smart solutions is one of the, let's say, main focus of our strategy. And we are expanding also, let's say, this kind of portfolio solution, having, let's say, the possibility to offer end-to-end solution to the customer, including also hardware in some cases that is a specialized hardware, in particular, the initiative that is making grow our industrial positioning and also is focused on critical infrastructures, monitoring and prediction in which we combine, let's say, proprietary hardware, so smart sensors with intelligent software inside and digital platforms in order to collect, elaborate and predict also data in order to provide value to customer itself. Also, the investment we are doing for the Fintech division goes in this direction in which we provide end-to-end solution made by hardware plus software. So we opened up a joint venture with an hardware vendor in order to serve the market within one-stop shop -- one solution that includes hardware devices plus software devices. So this positioning of value with proprietary vertical high-value intelligent solutions, so including AI agents inside, we think that is a leverage that we can use in order to keep our position in the market and continue to grow. Overall, let's say, so there are risks. There is uncertainty. Of course, we are moving in terms of management team in order to capture the opportunities. So far, in the last 5 years, we demonstrated to be able to adapt the offering and focus on very critical and strategic environment in order to continue to create value. So of course, what we have done is not a guarantee that we will continue to do. But for sure, we have a team of people very focused on the market needs. We will continue not to serve, let's say, commodities, but to continue to serve and provide value to customers. And we see also this AI wave to have benefits in the short term because it's an instrument for us to improve margins and of course, to offer more to customers with a strong solution. Our, let's say, relationship with customer is a partnership relationship. So TXT is seen as an enabler also of the new technology inside the change management process of customer itself. So we are, let's say, we are aware of the uncertainty, but we are very committed in order to leverage on these changes to capture market shares and grow our market positioning. So for this reason, we confirm the guidance of 2025-2027 industrial plan. And we see after this plan also the possibility that TXT can be a major player for the future in the changes that will come. Looking to the different offering, in particular, the Smart Solutions for [ STARs, ] I want to highlight that we are present with this kind of solution in the Aerospace & Defence landscape. And of course, these solutions are a complex one, including AI algorithm. And let's say, they contributed a lot in the growth in 2025, and we will continue for the next few years for the industrial plan. I want to highlight that we signed in the last 2 months, so after the 2025 results, 2 contracts with the 2 major U.S. airlines for our solution of, let's say, intelligent solution for sustainability of flights. This kind of business has been signed in Q1 and will generate an annual recurring revenue above USD 10 million per year that will be full run rate in 2027 because this project takes time in order to be integrated in all the fleet of the customers. So we will grow up. Some contribution will come this year, but it's a long-term, very valuable, let's say, positioning that we obtained, thanks to the vision of our management team in this field and the investment we did in these intelligent platforms that are part of the core business of the Asian airlines. Besides that, so we have long, let's say, pipeline of activity, especially for the defense domain in which our technology will be part of the major programs that are under development. We provide the technology for training for advanced avionics systems. So this positioning is a long-term positioning that make us confident to have, let's say, derisk very strong value proposition that can help us to navigate these uncertain times. Industrial IoT is also growing. So investments were made in 2025, developing and enhancing proprietary platform for data collection and data analysis. We still plan to invest. We had a contribution of this part more or less EUR 2.5 million in 2025 Q4 with a new long-term and strong project for Public Sector domain in which we provide our platform with a contribution also not only from software part, but from hardware because, as you know, we have a company in Germany developing smart sensor that has an integrated offering with respect to the software part. So we are an end-to-end provider of a full solution in order to do monitoring of complex infrastructure. We have already signed and we have in contracts to cover EUR 50 million for 2026. Of course, these are already signed and will be delivered in 2026, but the pipeline is strong. And so we think that this part will be a strong contribution to the overall results of the group. Of course, this kind of business has a part that is related to Smart Solutions, so to our proprietary software platform and hardware. But there is a strong also service business around this solution. So in terms of accounting of these revenues, 20% will be in Smart Solutions, the rest will be in Software Engineering. Fintech and MarTech also are gaining good contribution, thanks to the strategy to increase the international positioning of this kind of business, especially related to hardware and software solution for digital payments for the Fintech part and for the MarTech to export our, let's say, intelligent platforms towards other countries. So first contribution comes in 2025 Q4. Overall is EUR 2 million of new business coming from these initiatives, plus EUR 1 million coming from the MarTech division, so EUR 3 million overall. It's a line of growth that we expect to give strong contribution and mitigate maybe risk on other industry that we have in order to continue to grow according to the goals we set for 2026. In terms of positioning for the Digital Advisory, let's say, 70% of the business of our Digital Advisory is related to complex and critical programs related to the Public Sector. So in which there is, let's say, natural sovereignty, there is a strong, let's say, demand of adopting new technologies, including also AI, but there are also many regulations and many, let's say, impact related to the adoption of new technologies that, let's say, are addressed, but our offering, especially related to AI adoption, AI act and so on. So the residual backlog of this division is still strong. So -- and we participated to different, let's say, new bids in the first part of the year that are under assignment from the Public Sector domain in Italy. We have still a backlog exceeding EUR 100 million for the 2026 and 2027 and more. So we are positioned in order to continue on this backbone that is, let's say, another risk in our overall offering because, let's say, it's a long-term engagement into complex projects. And our focus is also to be present on high-value, let's say, programs in terms of critical offering and, let's say, complexity. And we are not looking for volumes in terms of, let's say, one-off volumes of activities, but on activities that has a long span across years for the new digital infrastructure of the overall Public Sector in Italy. So this is another part that we want to continue to grow. And also this Digital Advisory capability for the remaining 30% is under a focus in order to make it grow. And we are addressing also an increasing, let's say, market share in other domain like the banking and finance one, the industrial, especially for critical infrastructure in terms of monitoring and analyzing data for, let's say, improving critical infrastructure. And then we are also looking for new segments like the energy utilities in which we are -- we have still a small footprint, but is strategic for us to make grow during the future years. Software Engineering that is 60% of the total business of the group. I want to focus that our Software Engineering activities are mainly project-based and the projects are critical and complex mission-critical, business-critical projects for our customer base. This is the presence of -- in the defense domain, especially with the primary, let's say, Italian player, but also across Europe and North America, position ourselves in a strong, let's say, perimeter and also resilient perimeter because investments are still strong. So we had a contribution also during 2025, and we plan to continue to grow in the next few years. Main players are investing, so they are launching new programs. And our, let's say, ability to provide high technology and a strong knowledge of the domain allow ourselves to have a strong competitive edge with respect to the competition. So we have, let's say, already delivered across the last few years, several very important software solution for these customers, and we are planning together with them in a partnership, let's say, engagement to support this growth by bringing talents and by bringing solutions that accelerate and bring value to the products that we used during the defense. As you know, main players are growing in this field, and we are, let's say, recognized as a strong partner in order to support their own growth. Of course, Software Engineering as a part that is strong also with the acquisition of Webgenesys for the Public Sector that contributed a lot in terms of overall reported growth in 2025. We have still a backlog also in this case for Software Engineering services in the Public Sector below the EUR 100 million to be done in the next 3 to 5 years. And we are bidding for critical, let's say, programs for public digital transformation that will represent a key driver for us for growth. I want to remember you that considering the overall Software Engineering business, almost 50% are coming from these strategic industries, so from the Aerospace & Defence and from the Public Sector. So this mix of, let's say, new initiatives, diversified offering and positioning in very strong growing markets allow us to be confident, nevertheless, the uncertainty of the period. So thank you very much for, let's say, listening to these highlights that we put. And now I call Andrea in order to look to the Q&A session in order to go deeper with some more detailed information for you. Andrea?

Thank you, Daniele. And yes, we collected a couple of questions during the call. I will start with in chronological order, let's say. First came from Tommaso Nieddu from Kepler. And the question, which has just been published is the following. With the full year 2025 EBITDA margin already at 15.2%, how should we interpret the 15% 2027 target? Is there room for further upside? Can you give us more color on the initiatives that was going to ramp up in Q4 like payment and orders? And there is another question linked to the same question, which is related to airline contracts, asking if those contracts are already included in the guidance for 2026. If you want, Daniele, I can start commenting on some part.

Yes. I don't remember everything that you said, but...

So basically that the margins in 2025 were already at 15.2%. So how we should...

Yes. So as you know, yes, the industrial plan was to reach the 15% overall margin by the end of the plan. Because the mix of the activity and the strong results, especially for the Smart Solution, we reached the 15% already in the first year of the plan, so in 2025. Of course, in our plan, there are investments to be made, okay? And we will continue to do them. There was a stronger also than expected Q4 that, let's say, enabled us to reach this kind of margins. We expect, let's say, we keep the 15% at the end of the 2027, let's say, period. Of course, 2026 is a little bit uncertain also for all the changes that are coming. We want to continue to invest. So we don't want to stop our investment in terms of R&D also on commercial activities. So we think that probably we will have some slowdown also in the percentage margins. As I said, the guidance was to reach EUR 65 million and add also other millions of EBITDA coming from the M&A. The turnover is 10%. So our plan is a little bit lower in terms of EBITDA margin in 2026. Nevertheless, of course, if we capture good opportunities, we can keep the same margins as this year. In terms of initiatives that was going to ramp up in Q4, I already explained something during the call, but giving also some numbers, Fintech and MarTech international, let's say, exposure bring EUR 3 million overall EUR 3 million turnover overall the results of the year. And we plan to have a contribution also strong in 2026. I think that, let's say, all the numbers that we are planning includes also contracts that has been signed because, of course, in order to close the 2 contracts announced before, we are working since 2 years, probably in terms of sales cycle. So it was already part of the planning. As always, we plan and we communicate, let's say, reachable results. So as I said during the Capital Markets Day, we want to plan good results and do better. It's complex because the situation is changing. Still, we have a confidence that we can reach and also surpass the guidance that we are giving.

Yes, Daniele, I think if you can add also there were the initiative in the industrial field, which you commented before around Autostrade. And yes, the 2 contracts let's say in the guidance for 2026, I would say, partially included. And of course, as we specified in the presentation, the real ramp-up is expected in 2027 after the investment to make operational this complex system in a complex environment like aerospace and airlines in this specific case. I will move forward with the second question. It's a bit long, Daniele, is coming from Andrea Randone from Intermonte. The first one, the first let's say, some questions I think we already answered and also Andrea specified that. And can you help us in reaching a better understanding of how you reached this strong performance? Have you signed important contracts in Smart Solutions segments? So I think here you already provided some...

I have already flavor during the call, so during the presentation. Of course, the contribution from Smart Solutions is strong. So coming from the new initiative, but also from, let's say, the regular ones. In particular, we recorded also a very good performance related to training software for pilots, both civilian and military ones because there is a strong demand of technology in terms of improvement and efficiency of training processes. Training process is a process that is core business for the main customer that are operating aircraft or flying objects in general. And of course, there is a strong demand because there is needs, structural needs of more pilots in general because there is a change of pilots and a need of a number of pilots that is increasing. So technology is seen as a very strong point in order to improve the capability of our customers. And of course, this kind of market is also a market that is highly regulated. So in order to train a pilot, you have to follow rules. So there is no possibility to have, let's say, outstanding -- the adoption of the technology is in some way linked to the improvement of regulations. So having an offering in this field since many years position ourselves in a strong way because we know the rules, we know the customer needs and our solutions are tailored in order to meet these constraints. So this was a very strong contribution. For, let's say, the other domains, there was a growth overall of the positioning of our Smart Solutions. So we think that this kind of positioning allow ourselves to continue in this direction also for the next year.

Thank you, Daniele. I will now read the second part. The second question is, are you already able to provide us with a comment on a possible dividend payout on this year results?

Let's say, as said by Andrea, this part is more related to turnover and EBITDA. In terms of dividend, what I can say has not yet been, let's say, approved and will be discussed on 12 in our, let's say, full result approval with the Board of Directors. As in history, we have a history to give, let's say, more or less in the last few years, we provided a percentage to the overall net profit. So it's reasonable to continue on this, let's say, path. Of course, the only year we didn't provide, let's say, dividends was related to the COVID crisis. We are under uncertainty, but we think that we can continue like we did in the past.

Thank you, Daniele. Then you said that there are new M&A deals likely to be signed in the first half of 2026, are paying multiples that reflect in some way the recent derating of the sector.

So in general, if you are following us since a few years, we always pay less than what is expected to be paid in our, let's say, domain because our capability to engage entrepreneur in a bigger project, that was a strong point of our M&A campaign. So the results that are coming today are due to our ability to find, let's say, motivation in entrepreneur selling the company to join, let's say, a bigger project of our listed company. So we will continue with that. So I don't think to expect a lower multiple with respect to our historical results. So we are speaking about acquiring company with a multiple of 5 to 6x EBITDA.

Okay. Thank you, Daniele. And can you comment on net debt at year-end 2025? What do you expect will be the leverage at year-end 2026?

As I said before, so we will speak detailed this topic on -- after the approval of full result on 13 call. What I can say is that also, let's say, our expectation is the Q4 was very strong in terms of EBITDA, so EUR 19 million EBITDA in Q4. Also, the cash generation was positive in terms of percentage and in terms of volume. So we are improving, let's say, the overall net financial position. And so we are confident to bring good results also to the market on the call of 13. At the end of the 2026, we, let's say, are planning according to the industrial plan guidance. So our guidance gave a maximum of debt with respect to EBITDA, not over 2.5, I think, 2.5x. We are more than confident to keep the level across the overall plan.

Thank you, Daniele. And I think we have another question from Andrea Bonfa from Banca Akros. So actually 2 questions. I will start with the first one. Can you please elaborate a bit more on the 2026 expected pro forma EBITDA? If I understand correctly, you start from EUR 65 million pro forma basis, but you mentioned over EUR 6 million from EBITDA this year. Starting from a reported EUR 60 million plus at least EUR 6 million from M&A, you should start from at least EUR 66 million, EUR 67 million. So I think there was a bit of a misunderstanding in the sense that the EUR 65 million are like-for-like on the 2025 perimeter. So we expect to grow from EUR 60 million to EUR 65 million, let's say, with the same perimeter and to add additional -- so it's more than EUR 65 million, let's say, on the same perimeter of 2025 and adding at least EUR 5 million to that coming from the EBITDA. So to exceed the EUR 70 million at the year-end of EBITDA, including both, let's say, the organic part that is at least -- that we expect to be at least EUR 65 million and the contribution from M&A. So if you want to add something, Daniele, but I think you...

No, no, it's okay.

And then another from Andrea Bonfa from Banca Akros. And more on the M&A EBITDA, the EUR 6 million, how much is carried over from 2025? So it's a very small part. Maybe I can spend a few words myself, Daniele in the sense that from 2025, not consolidated, it's just a quarter of a small company, IT Values. So it's not very relevant in terms of, let's say, inorganic M&A 2025 that will be consolidated into the EBITDA 2026. So when we speak about the EUR 65 million, we can easily compare it with the EUR 60 million reported EBITDA for 2025.

Any other question, Andrea?

Not for now, but I think maybe there will come more during the presentation in 2 weeks.

Okay. So we will meet -- thank you very much for our, let's say, for attending this conference. So I hope you -- I gave you some more flavor about the actions that we are implementing, the investments we are doing and the vision that we have for the horizon of the industrial plan. So we are more than aware that we live in uncertain period. We have a strong team, a very good offering, strong positioning in solid market segments. So we are confident to keep, let's say, the expectation about the market itself and especially of the customer that needs our support as a partner in order to deliver and have new solutions and new value proposition powered by technology that we can support in providing. So thank you very much for attending. We will meet again in 2 weeks, so with full disclosure of the financials, including debt, including dividends and so on. So thank you very much for listening. And let's -- we will work very strongly in order to meet the goals that we are setting. Thank you very much.

Thank you, everyone.