The Tata Power Company Limited (500400) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome to all of you to this analyst speech of Tata Power. Now before we begin the proceedings, a small safety message for all of you, we are assembled at the auditorium in the ground floor. There are 2 exits to this auditorium. The first one is at the back of the people sitting, you can go take the exit and then take a right and left to the lobby and out of the building. The other exit is on my right, which is in this side. And this will directly take you to the lobby. Please move from there to the exit building and then move to the right to the safe assembly area. If you are in neither part of the building, please follow your group coordinator for today for the exit. Use the stairs instead of the lifts during any emergency. There are no drills planned today. So in case of an emergency, please evacuate as per the instructions of the group coordinator. Thanks, that's for the safety process. Now it is indeed my pleasure to welcome you all to this physical meet after almost 4 years. The last analyst meet which we had was 2018, and then, of course, we had a virtual one in 2020. And of course, we have been having quarterly analyst calls, always interacting with you. But I think this has been a long while before we had a physical meet. A lot of things have happened during this period. We all went through very challenging times during the pandemic. And of course, even now, the geopolitical situation is something which all of us know. And this -- all of this has obviously affected every business, every country across the globe. Tata Power actually has been very active during this period. The company has initiated a series of transformation steps as we all know. This was one of the reasons why we couldn't have an analyst meet because whenever we sort of plan for an analyst meet, we are in the midst of a transaction. So we thought that, let the transaction get completed, and then we will do. So we were actually doing, for instance, divestment of our overseas business, there's the wind farm in South Africa, our shipping business and our -- strengthening our balance sheet by infusing preferential capital from the promoters or acquiring Odisha during the period of COVID and/or looking at completing the merger process of CGPL into Tata Power. And then we are also working on InvIT for a long while, as you know. And then finally, before we completed the current transaction on the green company platform. So I think we have been so busy that, unfortunately, we couldn't have a physical meeting. And then finally, we decided that before we do another big transaction, we should be actually having a physical meeting. So when we decided that, one of the guidance given to us by our MD was that, let's not do this in the usual stuff in a hotel because we will come and have a presentation and then eat and drink and go. We want this to be a experiential sort of meeting, and therefore, create a situation where we can showcase to you what we have done in this period and showcase some of the various new business initiatives which we have taken. So what we have today is a 2-part plan. The first part -- the first half, which will start now with a presentation by our MD, and then we will have a Q&A following the presentation. We'll break for lunch at about 1:00. And then post the lunch, at about 1:30, 1:45, you will split into different groups. You all have been given a different colored cards and so you will follow the group of which you are part, and you will be taken to different stalls. There are about 7 stalls which we have put in place here. And one of the things which is interesting about this whole experiential thing is that the choice for the venue also was MDs. So the choice was that this place can be as conventional as it can be. It's a thermal power plant. But this is a place where we started mostly our -- the history, but this is a place which is going to showcase the transformation also. So it's a combination of the people in our thermal plant who have worked the last maybe 10, 15 days to put all this put together. They have also put 1 generation cluster stall. They said that this is the conventional bread and butter, which was there for us. But don't forget that, but we will showcase the other things also. So while we do all that, today, we have the senior management team with us, our MD and CEO, Dr. Praveer Sinha is there; Mr. Sanjeev Churiwala, who is the CFO, he is there; Sanjay Banga, who heads our T&D business is there; Mr. Vijay Namjoshi, who heads the generation cluster, is there; Mr. Gurinder Singh Sandhu, who heads the new business initiative is there; and Jyoti Bansal, who heads the Corporate Communications is here; and we also have Himal Tewari, who heads the HR . Who -- we will be missing Mr. Ashish Khanna, who is unwell, so he couldn't come today, but maybe we'll have another interaction for you all with him separately. So I now invite Dr. Sinha for his presentation.

Thank you, Kasturi. Good morning to all the analyst friends who are here, and [indiscernible] from Tata Power. It's great to see all of you face-to-face. We have, of course, the quarterly calls, and neither we can see anyone asking the question or you can't see any one of us answering the question. So it's just a voice that you hear, and today we'll give a face to all the voices that we hear. And it's such a great opportunity to meet and interact with all of you. Kasturi mentioned, we have our senior colleagues over here. I don't know how many of you recognize them, but let me take the opportunity of requesting each one of them to just stand and tell you who they are. So we have with us our CFO, Sanjeev Churiwala; we have also Mr. Sanjay Banga, who is the President of T&D. We have Vijay Namjoshi, who is the Head Chief of Generation business. And he is the host for this location. So whatever good is there, it is because of him. So thank you. We have also Gurinder Sandhu, who heads the new business, which is typically rooftop and EV and home automation business; we have Himal Tewari, he's the CHRO, and he keeps everyone motivated to do new things. So that's his task and to get the best talent and the best training for our people. So he's here. And then we have Jyoti, who is looking after not only corporate communication, but our initiatives on CSR and sustainability, which is a very, very important part of our business. It's part of our -- one of our core values, and it's one of the aspects where we work very closely in terms of how we become a sustainable company going forward. We unfortunately do not have Ashish Khanna, who is the President of Renewable. He's down with viral fever, and he was wanting to come today. I told him you can become a super spreader if you come over here, so let's avoid. So he has not come today. We also have a Prof. Sunil Sharma, who is the Chief of Strategy for us. Prof. Sunil Sharma is on a 2 years sabbatical from Ahmedabad. He is the Professor of strategy over there. And for 2 years, he will be with us, guiding us on thinking very differently in how we should make the roadmap for Tata Power going forward. So that's our senior leadership. And of course, we have the team from -- some of the team members from the other businesses, from finance, from renewable, from generation. Kasturi, of course, all of you know, Rahul Shah is there. And so also some of the other colleagues who look after these businesses. Kasturi mentioned that we have a very different format this time of interaction. Presentations, we can always send to you, and you can always see the presentations. So we have a few slides, which talks about the opportunity in the country where the country is going in power sector. And what we are doing to take benefit of that opportunity, how are we getting ready to cater to this requirement, and what are the new and innovative solutions that we are bringing so that we are very different than our competitors and how -- it's not just leadership in action, but also leadership in thought because if we do not have leadership in thought, how can we translate that into action. So that's what is important, and that's what we are doing. But the presentation is as good as presentation. Seeing is believing, and we thought we'll take the opportunity to show you what we do and how the power system is run, how difficult or how easy it is. And it's important for all of you to get a flavor of it. So there are 2 parts of the displays that we have. One is we have a power system control. You will see that how the power is supplied in Mumbai City. So if you are staying in Nariman Point or if staying in Dharavi or staying in Mahalaxmi, how the flow of power happens in Mumbai City. So if the power supply is not coming to your place, this is the place where we know exactly how much it is going in which grade, in which area. And if at all, there has been a few instances earlier 12th October and then last year, again in this year in February. So how -- where it happened and how we restore it and how emergency services are restored first and then the -- so in those conditions, how the supply is managed. We also have a place where we will show you how our renewable power is monitored on a real-time basis. So how we can see on real-time basis, each of these plants what is the wind speed over there? What is the solar intensity over there? What is the forecasting? How it will generate? Is there any -- we do real-time monitoring of the equipment. So if there's any condition-based monitoring or condition-based repair that needs to be carried out, we do also prediction of repair or replacement of equipment. So that's helps us to improve the quality of service that we provide in terms of the generation capability. And that's where you would see that in last 2, 3 years, the availability of our plants have improved our solar plants. Most of them are 100% to win or more than 99%, which we earlier used to struggle because most of the time, we were reactive. The third place that you would see is NOC center, network operation center, for EV chargers. So sitting over here, you can know that whether the EV charger in Parliament Street or in Bangalore, in MG Road or in Indiranagar or airport, whether it is working or not, and it is working both in terms of the electrical supply, as well as in terms of the payment gateway that is there or not. So that's the third. And the fourth is we have a 24/7 monitoring of the power trading and what is the type of supply and demand, if we can -- if there is an intraday requirement of power hub we can do. Apart from that, there are a few more displays. So you can -- there's a EV charger with a vehicle. So you can see for yourself how to charge We have always doubt that it will become very complicated. [Foreign Language] So you can see the gun. It is not a very complicated thing. It's a very simple instrument. We just quoted how the mobile app gives you all the information that is required to charge. We have a very interesting thing on rooftop solar, on solar pumps. And then on the home automation, that's -- though we call it home automation, it's basically energy management services that we carry out. So how you can control from any place, any of your equipment, whether it is in your home or it is in office or it is in a factory. So how the energy management and how it can become. And when we talk of all these, how we, as a company, are offering unified services. So if you know, based on your consumption pattern, what is your energy requirement, then you can tie up the energy to meet that requirement rather than just not knowing that how much is this. Otherwise, what happens is a huge amount of energy is available, but people use it for very few hours, and then you have certain hours of more consumption and less consumption. So that's what we will display today. There is also some display on the innovation work that we are doing through the Clean Energy International incubation hub that we have in Delhi and where we collaborate with a number of institutions in India and outside India. So I think the whole purpose of this is more to communicate, interact and give you the experience of what we are doing. Presentation is there. I will quickly go through the presentation. I don't want to bore you with all the statistics. In fact, your reports are more intense in terms of the statistics that you provided and many of the things you would see, we have copied it from your presentation only. So put together many of the data points that you have given. But what is important is to interact with us that how we are gearing up, and we call this Tata Power 2.0, getting up for next 100 years, how we are making the organization resilient, how are we making it -- the supply of power reliable? How are we taking care of sustainability? How are we taking care of communities? How are we taking care of the environment? So these are the very, very important part of it. And how are we taking care of the customers? Electricity supply has always been monopolistic. Customer was never bothered, and no one used to bother about the customer. People traditionally used to take half day leave to make the bill payment and things like that. That continues to be there in many places in the country, but how we are now making it proactively reaching out to customers and making the whole experience a seamless experience. In fact, in ease of doing business, World Bank looked at 2 places in the country for seeing what are the parameters. One was North Delhi, where we were doing the distribution, and the other was South Mumbai. And the whole experience we improved. So over a period of time from a global rating of something like 142 or 144, we came down to 75. We came down to 56. And then right now, I think we are 24 in the world, much better than U.S. and many of the other country. How the whole experience of getting a new connection, enhancing the load, bill payment, how they can become seamless and you don't have to go anywhere physically. You can do all these things online and how the whole application -- earlier, the application used to be a complicated process, land [Foreign Language] paper [Foreign Language]. So as if [Foreign Language] ownership of land [Foreign Language]. We are only supposed to supply electricity. So we made the whole process very, very simple, just 2 documents, 1 application and 1 set of document of proving they're bonafide, who is that person. Is there a bank and detail or any one information, even Aadhaar card is good enough. That you get an electricity connection, you don't need to come with the whole sets of documents and all that. So the whole process has become very simple. And that's where I think Tata Power is transitioning towards that, where customer is becoming very, very important. And all our services that we are now going to do are customer-centric, and many of them are, of course, now nonregulated business. So let me start with the presentation. I'll quickly go through the presentation. But if you have any questions in between, you can ask me to stop and respond to that. But otherwise, Kasturi, we do share the copy of the presentation? So the copy of the presentation will definitely be shared with you, and we can definitely thereafter discuss and respond to them. So we are building the future, Tata Power 2.0, and that's what we call ourselves. Of course, Kasturi gives a list of disclaimers like all of you give in your report in the end. So similarly, he has also learned to give disclaimers. But what we see is that power sector in India is going through a huge transformation. It's going through a huge increase in demand over a period of time. This year, consistently in the month of April and May, we had 200 gigawatt of power requirement. Before COVID, we were somewhere around 180, 185. This year, for days together, we had 200 and it reached a peak of, I think, 209 gigawatt. We expect this is the new norm. In fact, in the month of April because the heat conditions were such high that the increased gap was nearly 15% to 16%, unlike the previous years where the increase only used to be 5%, 6%. And you remember there was a crisis and coal crisis and imported coal and all sorts of things. But what is important is this is the new norm. The Indian industry is doing great. The Indian commercial services are doing great. The economy has been improving. And there is a general wellbeing, which is there, which is getting translated into energy consumption. There are more number of TVs in homes, so there are more number of electronic gadgets at home. And people are now consuming more of electricity. And that we need to. There are a whole lot of changes that has happened in the government in last one year. I was looking through the data point more than 20 rules, regulations, laws, bylaws have been introduced by the government in last one year, whether it is about LPSC or RPO obligation or the electricity rules or how do we ensure open access and how do we ensure better availability of power? How do we bring discipline in payment among the discoms, whether it is in terms of LC opening, and last week, you saw the government of India said that those who do not pay and they are defaulting in payment, they put the restriction of buying power from the exchange. So I think there are a whole lot of effort, which is being made to bring a certain amount of discipline in the power sector. The Electricity Act amendment has also been put in the parliament. And hopefully, I was with the minister yesterday evening, he sounded very confident that in the winter session of Parliament, it should go through. There's a lot of effort that is being made with the standing committee members, discussions happen. And we have also, through CII and other industry bodies got time with the standing committee to talk to them and tell them that how it will benefit their states if they go through this process. A few things, which is very critical in that multiple suppliers of electricity, of course, all of you are from Mumbai, and all of you know that Mumbai has multiple suppliers. You have in the South of Mumbai, Best and Tata Power. And in North, you have Adani and Tata Power. So there are multiple suppliers. But this is a unique because of a Supreme Court intervention that happened. But now the enabling provision is there in the Electricity Act that you can have multiple suppliers of electricity. So that's a unique change that will happen. So also, there are certain changes in the regulatory framework, certain changes in ensuring that payment is being made on time and the ability of the load dispatch centers that if they can regulate supply of power if the payments have not been made or LCs have not been open. Also, the regulatory system, there is now owners on the regulators that they need to revise the tariff within a certain period. And that's a duty that has been put in them. Otherwise, the regulators used to think that after God and judges, the regulators are also like them. They do no wrong, they see no wrong. But now the regulators are under -- they will be under monitoring. If they do not perform their duties, they can be sacked. And I think that's a big change. There are also certain other enabling provisions which have been done in terms of the ability of the ministry to make rules much often and covering wide area. So I think all in all, it's a good amendment that is proposed, especially considering that the first -- the act came nearly 20 years back, 2003. We'll have 20 years in '23. And if this change happens, it will be a big move forward. Of course, it is not the ideal. We were wanting a few more things. But you know that electricity is concurrent subject, while the enactment of the laws and rules are by central government. The enforcement is done by the states, and there is a position from some of the states. They don't want to leave the control of -- and of course some of the states have the habit of giving everything free. So there's already a lot of debate and discussion happening on that. We also have seen that the RPO obligation, which has been put now going from nearly 20%, 22% to 47% by 2030. If you don't do it, there is a penalty on that. And that, again, will ensure that there is more and more of renewable penetration in the power supply. And this is not only applicable for the state discoms, but also all bulk users of power, including industries and commercial establishment. So there will be a lot of changes. These are not changes which is automatic. Many times, there will be some litigations. People will go to the court. They will question it. But ultimately, what is right will happen. And the name of the game is definitely patience. And we have seen that over a period of time, things have evolved. But ultimately, right things have happened and justice has been done wherever it is. Andhra can change the PPA, but ultimately, the high courts will come after them, hammer and tongs, and they will have to do it. So in the system, there are a lot of checks and balances. And I think we are moving to a stage where businesses will be done. The power sector business will be done in a very objective manner. And this is very important if we need investment in this sector. It cannot be a scenario that discoms do not pay or we have all sorts of things happening in the sector, and there's no discipline in terms of commercial or prudential business norms. So that will definitely happen. Tariffs revisions have to happen. Also arbit decisions cannot be taken. So I think there are a whole lot of things which are happening, which will make the sector much more viable going forward. These are, again, some of the changes, data points. Some in substances, there is huge, huge growth opportunity which is there. We are just in the tip of the iceberg in terms of the opportunities. And anywhere that you see, whether it is, if we have to become a 500 gigawatt of noncarbon considering that we have today 160 gigawatt. There is huge opportunity that capacity additions have to take place. And in every area, whether it is in rooftop, solar power, EV, you name it and utility scale, manufacturing everywhere there is a great opportunity for all of us to do. Of course, the prices and all that will reach a level where it will be competitive, but it will also has to be commercially viable and financially sustainable. We have seen many of these things, which the elephant -- they always says, is the discom in the room, their pathetic conditions needs to improve. But I think that this is an area where they are being pushed. Now discoms losses are getting added to the losses of the financial losses of the state governments. State governments financially are in very bad shape. And they will -- sooner or later, they will have to move towards becoming commercially viable. And commercially viable does not mean that it has to be absolute privatization. Services can be privatized. The smart metering service can be privatized. The whole CRM services can be privatized. The whole network management can be privatized. But it may not only be that the privatization is the only solution for this. So I think a lot of structural change will happen in the power sector going forward, and especially in the distribution sector. A lot of regulatory push is there, and I've shared with you some of those things. Government is trying to see to it that all these regulatory changes, which are happening, the mechanisms are done in such a way that it becomes friendly to invest and friendly to -- any money that is coming into the business. And it also helps in the growth of the business because -- also India still is about 410 gigawatts, take or leave a few gigawatts here and there. So we still have to grow nearly double of this by 2030. We'll definitely cross 800 gigawatt and majority of it will be renewable. So how do we prepare ourselves if you have to attract that sort of investment? And that is only generation, commensurating with generation will be the transmission assets, which needs to be added, upgraded, changed, all these equipments have a shelf life. Commensurate with that, the distribution system has to be upgraded. Technology has to come into it. So there is a whole lot of work that will happen, and the regulatory environment will become more and more conducive. And we have seen that the regulators, if you go with the new ideas, have supported it is not that it has not been supported. Rooftop solar was nowhere there in 2015. I remember we got a funding from USDD at that time, and for the first time, we got a study done from E3 of San Francisco to -- that what should be the rooftops policy and how the incentive has to be given, whether it has to be on net metering or gross metering and all that. And the states like Delhi and some of the other states, we're the first one off the block. We did a demand response. Again, some of the states gave the approval for that. We did the battery storage solution. So I think over a period of time, the regulatory environment also has changed. The regulators have also understood the benefits of these technologies. And I think those are definitely going to help us to get more investment in this sector. And what it means is that Tata Power will move in each of these areas. And why do I say that it will move? Because we are fortunate that many of these businesses are not acquired business. These are not helicopter droppings that we have got, that we got into this business. We have learned this business. We have in our DNA this business, which we have over a period of time. And most of the things, if you see, we were the first one. And when you are the first one in India, the challenge is that you have to reinvent the wheel. Most of the things are not known to people, whether it is in terms of doing the 500-megawatt plant, no one knew how to do it. When we did the 800-megawatt plant, no one knew that how a supercritical unit at 600-degree temperature and above, how do you need to control the temperature of that and the pressure of that and generate electricity. So many of these things we learned. When we did first time the SCADA system and distribution automation, no one in the country knew, even the companies which come, they give you the box. It's a black box that they give you, and they say this is SCADA, and now you do the collection of data from the grid and you manage it. Most of the places in the country, the discoms, could not do that because they didn't have the understanding. And I'll tell you that Government of India under R-APDRP had 72 states -- cities, which were identified for implementing the SCADA. Most of the places the SCADA came, the building was not ready, where the building was ready, the SCADA was put over there, but they did not do the distribution automation. And most of the places, and I can -- I have been in most of those places, ultimately from 70 to it came to 59 cities. People were only playing computer games on that, including in Lutyens' Delhi where NDMC was doing, because they never did the distribution automation, they never bought the AMC for those equipment. They never bought the software for those equipment. So you have the state-of-the-art technology lying over there, but never implemented, never done. And I can tell you that it has not been done in most of the places, in more than 90%. So that's the technology. Similarly, when people do the IT billing solutions and all that, most of the places, the IT solution is not implemented. It is just that [Foreign Language] reading [Foreign Language] manually [Foreign Language] computer [Foreign Language] through. But there's no analytics. There is no ERP, there is no software that they have implemented which gives them and/or helps them in analyzing that how the billing is done. So you suppose you have 50 offices or PWD or irrigation department, and you want to give a search that which are the 50, where how much of consumption has taken place and how much of collection. You cannot do that. Most of the places, the IT system that has been implemented has not been done properly and there is no data. And the quality of data itself, so garbage in, garbage out. So that's what happened. So the challenge in most of the states is that the IT system has not been implemented. And Tata Power, since we did ourselves because we had no choice there was no one who was doing the people, the best of the technology companies, they come and give you the box and they say, you implement it. We had to learn ourselves. It took us a lot of time, but over a period of time, we have learned. And having learned this, now we are offering this as a service as also using it for many of the other things that we do. So most of the things that you would see ups in the stalls today is in-built. We have more than 400 IT engineers. We in-build all this. This is not that we went to any of the IT companies, and they said that they will do it and all that because this is understanding of the operational technology and integrating with the information technology. And this is what we understand and we did over a period of time. And that's where Tata Power 2.0 is a very different arrangement where it is not just about supply of power, but it is supply of energy services and solutions. This is an important slide. So from 5.5 gigawatt where we are, we'll become 20-plus by 27%. And again, I want to tell you that it's not that we want to be #1. But we want to be a good player. We want to be a profitable player in this. We will not be very small. But whatever we will do, it will be a very moderated growth. We will only bid where we regulated 14%, 15%. So our new businesses, we need to get minimum of that. Otherwise, why I should go and put money in that business? So the money is always in short supply. So we will only put if it meets the minimum threshold returns that we are looking for ourselves. Similarly, from the EPC business, the EPC right now is about 50-50, 50% is for in-house, our own development, and the 50% -- and we are very selective now that we have scale, we don't go and bid for projects and take it from whether it is NTPC or NHPC or anyone, where we are not going to make the margin that we expected, and it also gives us why -- people ask me that why do you do EPC? It also gives us exposure. The first EPC that we did on floating solar. On someone else, we could learn or we are doing now the EPC with storage. We are also learning over there. It is giving us a scale to go and negotiate and learn and do things, which then we will implement and customize it to our requirement when we give our solutions. So we will definitely grow in this. But we will be, again, be very careful in terms of the type of returns. We -- from our present capacity of about 500-odd megawatts of cell and 500-megawatt of module, we will add another 4 gigawatt in the plant is under construction. And next year, by July, the module plant will be ready. And by next November, we will have the cell plant, which will be ready. Coming to rooftop solar, very small business. We started nearly 3 to 4 years back from a revenue of INR 50 crores. Last year, we closed with about INR 1,500 crores. And our target this year is to double it. And in the next 5 years, we will -- so this is more than a unicorn. So we have in-built unicorns happening over there. No one will write about that, that Tata Power has created so many unicorns, but this is one of the unicorns that we have created. Similarly, solar pumps, very small business. We used to do about INR 30 crores. Last year, we did INR 700 crores. This year, it will become at least 3x to 4x more. And this is also in line to become a unicorn in next 5 years. Charging stations, we are, of course, the biggest in the country right now with more than 60% market share. We have home chargers, nearly 20,000 home chargers, and nearly 2,700, 2,800 of public charges. We are also big in the fleet charges, as well as public transportation. So again, these are areas that we will grow very, very fast. We have the advantage because -- what is EV charging? EV charging is not just the [Foreign Language] in which you provide the charging, but also the electrons that needs to flow into that. And also the customer experience. We're fortunate part of the Tata Group. We were able to develop a very good tool along with TCS. It took us a lot of time, a lot of iterations, challenges that how do you make a tool which can be used anywhere in the country. And for any type of vehicle, any type of payment gateway, we've developed that tool over a period of time. We have Tata Motors, which gives us the opportunity to set up these home chargers and public charges, which they utilize. And then we have Tata AutoComp, which helps us in providing us very good sophisticated chargers. So I think the total Tata ecosystem is also helping us to take forward these solutions. This is about the opportunity. Huge opportunity, huge amount of bidding will come. People will say that in last one year, it has not happened. It has not happened. There has been various reasons why it has not happened. The changes that has to happen in the discoms, the changes that has to happen in the policy level. But let me tell you that when we talk of this number, this number is not only the utility scale, but also the industrial and commercial. A whole lot of -- and Gurinder and Shivram, who heads our rooftop business, every day, we get a large number of inquiries and offers are being made for industrial and commercial consumers. Because it's not just green energy and it's not the RE100, but it's also economically and commercially viable to go for these solutions. The average tariff comes down drastically. And this tariff remains firm for 25 years. It is unlike coal-based or gas-based and all that where the tariff changes every year depending upon the -- this is a firm until and unless the government imposes some tax on sun rays or on wind speed or something like that. It is going to be firm. So I think that's the unique benefit of this. The second benefit of this is that it pays for itself. It is a earning member in your business. So it will generate electricity and pay for itself. So the payback is much faster, and thereafter, it is virtually free of cost. And for all times to come, it gives you that benefit. So it's a great opportunity. And for a country like India, where we have more than 300 days of sunshine, you go any part of India, you will have that. So it's an opportunity for us to really make big in this. Utility scale, a lot of opportunities are there. A lot of bids will come, and bids will not be just pure vanilla solar or pure vanilla wind. Hybrid solutions will come. And you need to, again, come with a hybrid solution, which can be solar, wind, storage, hydro, demand response, demand side management. So there are a whole lot of combinations that can come. And 24/7 reality will become a reality of providing renewable energy. These are some of the solutions that we will be working on. In fact, we have, again, developed an in-house tool, which, depending upon the load of the customer, we can give you 24/7. Now we have tied up with some of the residential condos in Mumbai, as also in some of the other cities, some of the industries, including we are talking with TCS and Tata Motors and others that we can give you 24/7 renewable power, and you don't have to worry about getting the -- of course, the backup power will be there from the grid. But otherwise, in 99% cases, you will get 24/7 renewable power from us. And the software tool that we have developed will generate the outcome as to what is the capacity of solar and wind that we need to have, plus the hydro backup so that we can meet your requirement. And of course, we also will do the energy management solutions. So when we do all these things, we are now acquiring a whole lot of land for ourselves. At any given time, 8,000 to 10,000 acres of land is under the acquisition in different states. It is both for solar, as well as for wind. It is also for utility scale, as well as for group captive merchant plants. So all sorts of solutions and combinations are being worked on to see that we are able to customize the requirement and meet the objective of providing affordable and full quantity of renewable power to the consumer. We, again, bid very, very cautiously. We don't want to have the winners curse. We once had that. We don't want any more. So we are not going to do hara-kiri on any bid going forward. So we will be very, very conservative. And I'm -- the message to my team is always we should not worry if we lose a bid, but we should never compromise on our returns. So if returns is sacrosanct, come whatsoever, we are not doing kite flying, we are not trying to do financial engineering, we are not trying to do all sorts of exotic financing arrangements, this bullet payment, that bullet payment. Nothing like that. Let's go the straight away, let's do the right thing. We'll lose some bids. So what? But we should do what is right and what, as a company, Tata Power should do. Our operations are very good. You will see when you go that how we monitor, and the results are demonstrating that how, over a period of time, we used to lose a lot of money, whether it was the nonavailability of the equipment space. Earlier, all these things were outsourced. The operation was outsourced and space were outsourced. Now we do everything in-house, because many of these people who were outsourced are bankrupt, they would not have enough manpower, they would not buy enough space and keep -- whether it is for solar or it is for wind. So now most of the places we are doing ourselves, and we have moved away from the outsourced model. We are also now operating these plants not only to ensure that the plants, but even the evacuation arrangements are done. So now we work very closely with the discoms to see that if they have to carry out any maintenance activities, they should carry out during the period when the generation is not taking place. So in solar plants, the maintenance activities by the evacuation companies are done in the evening time and between evening and next morning. So that's the type of arrangement that we have. So our operations has become absolutely outstanding, best-in-class, and I feel that going forward, we will be the benchmark in the country for operating these plants. EPC is something that we, of course, where a lot of opportunities we'll do. But again, these are areas that we would be very closely monitoring. And the guiding factor is returns. No bid has to be taken or one where we are not getting returns. And we are not going to just go on some assumption and all that we'll only go in bid. We have seen in last 1.5 years, sometimes experience makes you more -- you get more wisdom about how the market has changed. And I remember 2 years back, in fact, 4 years back, it used to be INR 0.30, INR 0.31. It came down to about INR 0.18, and now has again gone back to INR 0.25, INR 0.26. And if you go for import -- Indian sales, it is INR 0.34, INR 0.35. So that is the price. INR 0.25, INR 0.26 is without BCD, if you add BCD, it becomes INR 0.34, INR 0.35. So that's the type of change that has happened, and we need to be very, very cautious. We should not get carried away many times you have seen that in last so many years, people have 1 bid in last 3 years, 60 gigawatt of bids have been won. 10 has been implemented, 10 are under implementation, 10 to 15 are in. The balance, I'm not very sure. So when the people tell you that I have so many under construction or so many we should take it with a pinch of salt that whether they will really see light of the day or not because those are not viable. Most of them may not happen. And I was with the minister also yesterday, and we were discussing about this that. What needs to be done? And is it that the BCD has to be deferred or what because these projects will not happen. We should not be kidding ourselves that this 20, 30 gigawatt, 40 gigawatt of projects which have not happened will get implemented. So again, for us, domestic manufacturing is very important. We are going for cells and modules. The plant construction work is going on. We are arranging the financing for it, both from Indian and foreign lenders, banks, we are in discussion with them. And I think this will be, again, one of the good plants. This is -- and why do I say this will be a good plant. Again, the technology of cell manufacturing is a very complex technology. It is not something which is very simple for anyone to set up a cell manufacturing and reach the level of efficiency that today, we implemented the expansion project during COVID period. No one came to us. None of the experts came to us who had supplied the equipment, none of the German and the Chinese came, but we still are today operating at the highest efficiency of 22.6%. None of the Indian other manufacturers have even reached a 22-plus, so they are all less than 22% efficiency. And many a times, people say that I will bring this technology. Technologies are not that you get in Crawford market or you get in Nariman point in the lean of Nariman point. These are technologies are over a period of time acquired, the DNA has to be acquired. You have to learn this technology. While a lot of people have very aggressive plans, and they have also gone for poly silicon and all that. I'm not very sure it is something which is possible in a short period of time, even in a long period of time, they would be able to achieve it. We will definitely work on improving our margins. Now that we have scale, we have ability to manage this much better compared to and our own engineering strength has improved. Our sourcing strength has improved supply chain has improved and will be able to do that. Rooftop, the big thing that we have, rooftop is one of the focus areas. We have now channel partners all over the country. And not only that, we have now the sales team, the feet on the ground are there. We have a very, very focused team. We are doing now a lot of work on branding. We never used to do branding [Foreign Language]. But now we are doing a lot of branding on. And you would have seen, we are now sustainable is attainable through our platform. We are doing it through CNBC. You'll see more of us in the media and it will drive all our business. It is not just rooftop, but it will talk about our EV. It will talk about our solar pumps. It will talk about our distribution business because these are all integrated solutions. These are not stand-alone solutions and consumer is interested in energy. They are not interested how you bring it, how you manage it and all that. So the back end of it is an energy solution that companies like Tata Power have to develop. We are growing very, very fast in this. We -- not many of you would be aware that we do about 500-megawatt of rooftop solar every year, and this will increase to 1 gigawatt and will increase to 2 gigawatt in 5 years. So it's a huge capacity at -- everyone is so carried away by the utility scale [Foreign Language]. So that's the type of numbers that will happen going forward. So huge amount of rooftop projects will come up. And the whole supply chain, the channel partners, all of them will be working with us and we already have developed that in the last 3 years. We already have what about 335 plus 63, so 400. And by the end of the year, we'll be 500-plus channel partners. So that's the type of reach that we have. And most of them are now doing INR 1 crores plus business. So a huge amount of work that is happening. Solar pumps, again, this was an area that we got into massively in the last 3, 4 years, we've done the investment. Now we do the branding also the pump is a high-efficiency pump that we have for different ratings, whether it is 3 HP, 5 HP, 7.5 and 10 HP. We get it branded under Tata Power. So also the solutions of solar. We are now working with the farmers on that how they can be aggregators of supplying of water to other farmers. So you did not have every farmer having a solar pump. You can have a farmer with solar pump in a 3-kilometer or 5-kilometer radius, and they can supply water to all the other farmers in the nearby area. Similarly, they are now tying up, we're helping them to tie up with some of the other commercial establishment, shops, [Foreign Language] and things like that in the villages so that the whole economic model of the solar pump improves and this farmer, again, becomes a beneficiary of it in terms of certainty of supply as well as in terms of making money from supply of electricity. A lot of work that we are doing, and all these are helping us to get a huge amount of traction. We have virtually spread in most of the villages in Northern India and in Central part of India. We are now expanding in Western and Southern part of India also, but the solutions that we have got are unique solutions, and we do expect that going forward, they will be really differentiators for us. Of course, India has great opportunity. We have nearly 3 crores pump sets in the country, of which 90 lakhs are DG set pump sets, only 3 lakhs were solar pumps, the KUSUM program talks of 40 lakhs to be solarized. But Anyone who is using a DG pump set will definitely like -- 90 lakhs is the minimum market, if not more. EV chargers, again, I shared with you that we do EV-charging for home chargers we do for public charges, and we also do for fleet owners and public transport charges. This is again about partnerships. We have partnerships with all types of customers, all type of institutions whether it is petrol pumps, petrol companies, oil companies. It is through people like Starbucks and Coffee Day and others. So any of these type of partners who have [indiscernible] where they can provide a space where the charges can be put to be tied up with them. We are also tying up with institutions like Manx and others, where each of their branches, wherever they have parking space, they will provide the space, airports, ports, railway stations, metro stations, all those are areas where they are giving us the opportunity to put these charges. And of course, once the more number of electric vehicles comes in the market, the penetration and the usage will go up over a period of time. This is project connecting Kashmir to Kanyakumari every 150 kilometers, we will have chargers on both sides of the road. We are working on that. And hopefully, in the next 2 years, we will be able to implement it. There's also one on East to West from Guwahati to Surat. In each of these spaces, you see we are becoming #1 whether in utility space, EPC that [indiscernible], of course, in the renewable capacity. I mentioned to you that a lot of people have huge projects in pipeline. Let's wait and see these in which we have to have patience to see whether they really see light of the day. We are, of course, doing rooftop solar, solar pumps and EV. In each of these 5 areas which is part of our renewable platform, we will be virtually #1 in all except for the utility scale, we will be possibly 3 or 4, but we want to be [indiscernible] over there. We don't want to go and just bid out and win projects. [indiscernible] is a dangerous -- I remember company -- U.S. company, which did it for 240. It never happened and the company went bust. INR 2, INR 1.99, you will possibly see something like that happening in the future also. We have aspirations to grow from where we are. our EPC revenue will definitely grow because our EPC revenue is 50% in-house and 50% outside, which is a very easy thing, not a very difficult target. If I would have taken a 10x target, it would have been very difficult, but I think 3x is a conservative target, but we want to do good projects. We just don't want to do projects just for the heck of it. At the end of the day, we are not making money in EPC, then there's no point in doing. No, we cannot do charity on EPC for others. Similarly, our renewable capacity will grow. I mentioned to you from 5 to 20 gigawatt. Again, we will be very calibrated in our growth. Our rooftop will grow. This is a big area. And once with the proper branding and the supply chain and our channel partners in more than 300-odd cities, 400-odd cities will be [Foreign Language]. So that's the messaging that will happen. Again, solar pumps will be a big thing. We feel very strongly. We also do a project on micro grids, which is not part of the platform. But we strongly believe that it is also our duty to reach out to the people under the universal axis of energy. There has been a lot of talk about energy poverty and how we can work on that. What we are trying to do over here in the country is make them financially sustainable. These are not going to be gratis project or on charity, but these have to be commercially variable. We are not very far from that. We possibly in the next 1 year, we'll have 100% financially viable solution without any support without any gratis without any charity from anyone. And if we crack that, then it's a big opportunity globally, a whole of South -- whole of sub-Sahara Africa, the 49 countries over there where nearly 1 billion people do not have access or we can give them a good solution. Not that we will go and implement, we'll give them the solution. So I don't want you to consider that we are going to go and implement those over there, but we'll have some partners to whom we will supply the solution streamed. Let me come to distribution. Again, a lot of programs are there of the government. And last 20 years, you must have heard different names, [indiscernible], Part 1, Part 2, the [indiscernible], Rajiv Gandhi [Foreign Language]. So halted, but some and substances that distribution companies in India are in very bad shape. And seeing is believing you go to most of the places, you can still sell your way to the toilets in their offices. You would still believe that [Foreign Language] on the transformer, on the wires. [Foreign Language] more leaves on them than you have -- you can see them. So distribution companies are in very bad shape in the country. And that's where it brings us that our ability to change. And the same happened when we went to Orissa virtually impossible. I don't think if it was not Tata Power -- not that I'm boasting, anyone else could have done it, what we have done in such a short period of time. But we have also done it during COVID period. This was peak of COVID, 1st June, 2021. There was no -- sorry, 2020. And there was no way you tell anyone you give any amount of money to anyone. No one would have gone in work. But it was, again, the discipline, the resilience, the capability of Tata Power team, which went over there and took the responsibility. In fact, the flights had just started, the Chief Secretary of Orissa was telling me [Foreign Language] I will get you the interstate permission permit to drive from Mumbai to Bhubaneswar 150,000 square kilometers. Just to give you an idea, Mumbai is 1,500 square kilometers. Delhi is a 1,500 square. We are talking about 1 lakhs 50,000 square kilometers in which the work has to be done. 64,000 villages. And in a state where the number of meters, which are not working out of 9 million customers was nearly 2 million customers. [Foreign Language] So you have to do. There are a large number of customers who were ghost customers. [Foreign Language] But the data point is terrible. And so how do you go [Foreign Language] It's a matter of shame that many of these DISCOMs bought equipment, transformers with smart meters, AMR meter. [Foreign Language] And this is not only -- I'm talking about Orissa. [Foreign Language] In some of the other states also have gone in seen under RAPDRP. [indiscernible], but it is lying in the junkyard never used [Foreign Language] So that's the carelessness level, which is there. Under those conditions, we have gone and done this. It was very -- it was a Herculean task. Sanjay, and we were always discussing [Foreign Language] Are we getting very greedy. It was very tough. [Foreign Language] But finally, we ended up doing all Fortunately, things have now fallen in line. A lot of improvements have taken place, whether it is in terms of reliability, customer service, IT services, financial, everything has fallen in line. [Foreign Language] In fact, the first ERP we implemented, I remember, in 71 days, the ERP was implemented from -- so we took over on 1st of June. In 71 days, the ERP was implemented. In nearly 122, the CRM was implemented at least for ST customers and non-ST customers. So a lot of things that we did, and we learned over there. So our ability now -- so if today, if someone tells me [Foreign Language] There are some states which are very difficult. So I'm not worried. I can go -- like earlier, in metro cities, we could do it like in Delhi, we did it. Mumbai, we did it. [Foreign Language] That art we now know better than all. And so similarly, how do you go and do it in a -- in a semi-urban and rural area that we have now picked up. How do you reach out to those 64,000 villages. How do you reach out to those consumers who are in tribal areas and all that? How do you reach out to consumers where it is max-lige-invested? [indiscernible] is a next light invested. [Foreign Language] you know what will happen. So those are the type of things that we have learned. And this is [Foreign Language] You have to go in and learn and do it in the [indiscernible]. And that's where Tata Power is uniquely. So once this multiple license and all that done, we'll be -- we've already identified 50 cities in which we'll be there. So Sanjay and team has already worked which are the first 50 cities will go and then the next 50 cities and all that. So that's a service that we can provide. And I think we are very well poised to really take the benefit of this opportunity. These are all data points upward. [Foreign Language] Whether it is urban or a mix of urban and semi-urban, rural, whatever is there, we can do that. We've learned it. We've learned it the difficult way, but we have now very good solutions. So I'm not worried sometimes people say [Foreign Language] And now they do everything. So it's a question of enabling people. [Foreign Language] is headed by a lady over there. And she used to go and do raids on her scooter. [Foreign Language] now she goes with the full team. [Foreign Language] So that's the -- so capability was there. They were not empowered and that's the change that has happened when we took over. Now all these people are energized and we are seeing the results [Foreign Language] how good it has happened. Sometimes, we are told [Foreign Language] are we not able to -- we are missing the point. But I think quarter-after-quarter, we are seeing improvement -- month-after-month, the collection efficiency and things have improved drastically and also in the network quality of service, everything has improved drastically over a period of time. In fact, the last year [Foreign Language] 90% of the places we did and 72 hours, we did 100% of the place. That's the type of. So we had mobilized material man people, everyone was there tractors. And quickly, we could restore the supply over there. So this is what we have done in Orissa, a lot of initiatives, a lot of action. Some in substances, it has improved drastically, and it will keep on improving. We are, in some places, just a little more than a year. The North Orissa, we took over only on 1st of April last year. We have just completed 1 year, some places a little more than a year, but our performance has been phenomenal over there. We also -- because over a period of time, we learned all these things, we are now gearing up that you know India has gone in a big way that we will do smart metering. Now smart metering is not just metering, but it's the head end, the data analytics, the meter data management and the whole SCADA system and the GIS and all that. So this is a service that we propose to provide once the full implementation of the smart metering program takes place. And this is going to be fairly larger in terms. Again, transmission is an area that we lost in between, we did not bid for projects in the last decade. We were the first one actually in the country to have a cross-country transmission line from Bhutan to Delhi. But somehow, we did not do subsequent bidding. We have fortunately now won two bids: The Isolux and the NRSS, and we are now going to bid more. We, of course, do a lot of transmission work in Mumbai. A huge amount of capacity additions have taken place, replacement and new lines have been done in Mumbai every year. In fact, we are now doing something like INR 500 crores of investment in the Mumbai transmission system. But outside Mumbai, we had not done. This will give us an opportunity. This will also give us an opportunity to leapfrog into 765 kV lines. So the 765 kV line in Isolux is the first time that we will be implementing. So when we do all these things for us, we need to do everything as a responsible corporate citizen. We don't do like many of the other people who are coming and doing this because they want to get a good valuation and sell and go away. This is our business. We'll be here. Today, we'll be here 100 years hence. And we want to do things which makes us proud and makes the country proud and the citizens proud. So environmental leadership is something that is very much embedded. Everything that we do has to pass muster on one is the customer connect, the other is Community Connect and the third is the environment coming. So this is something that we will work very closely. We are moving. We've already shared with you that how over a period of time, we will move and have more of a renewable clean portfolio from our present 34% will become more than 75% by 2030. And of course, 100% by 2045. Our P&D business will grow much faster. It has a revenue of about INR 27,000 crores now, with the 12.3 million customers. We'll become 40 million customers and we'll have a revenue of nearly INR 60,000 crores. So more than what Tata Power revenue will be this year or maybe around the same time, around the same number. Rooftop and solar pumps and all that, there will be multiple times unicorns going forward in the next 5 years. So it is about leadership of Tata Power, that how do we have leadership. But leadership, which is very calibrated leadership, which is of responsibility and leadership of technology and innovation. So touch points will be technology and innovation in everything that we do. This is how the capital employed, I'm sure you all will be interested in seeing this [Foreign Language]. So yes, we will employ a lot of capital, but the employment of capital will primarily be focused on renewable. We will have some investment in transmission and distribution. Both of them do not require the type of investment that is required in renewable business, especially the large utility scale. And we expect that whatever investment we do will get a very attractive return for us. This is the type of revenue that you will have. We've already shown that how from where we were doing spot jogging whole of 2010 decade of less than INR 30,000 crores. Last year, we have done INR 42,000 crores. And this year, of course, will be more than that. And in 5 years, we'll be 3x of this. The NDA itself will be INR 60,000 crores. So you can imagine the type of growth that we are looking at. Our PAT will also grow. Again, we were spot jogging in the INR 1,000 crores range, 1,200, 1,400. We crossed the 2,000 homes, and this year will be much better than that. Returns on profile -- returns on both ROC and ROE will be phenomenal. We, hopefully, are back on track in terms of the type of returns that we will bring on our businesses. Similarly, we'll be very conscious about the debt and how our debt will be controlled in spite of the growth that we are looking at -- so this is what is our objective. And so I come to the end of the presentation. We have all my senior colleagues over here, who will respond to all your questions. So I thought I have made the presentation, sir. Answers will be given by others.

Thank you. I think after this intense and passionate presentation, which Praveer made. And as we mentioned, that's a detailed presentation and so a lot of questions may have already been answered. But as we know all of you, you will still have questions. So may I request Sanjeev Churiwala, CFO; Sanjeev answer some of the questions which our friends will have. And whoever has a question, please raise your hand and then maybe introduce yourself and ask the question ease. Mohit has always wanted to have the first question. I'll ask the first question.

My first question is on the capital requirement. How do you think about capital requirement for growing this, especially the green piece of business over next medium term? And do you think we need to raise capital at some point of time? And how do you think about doing an IPO or some kind of capital or dilution in the green businesses, given the large plan?

So right now, we have gone in collected INR 4,000 crores, which we feel is good for at least FY'23 and FY'24. And once we see how the traction on the renewable platform is there, we will then possibly decide at that stage of what needs to be done. We, of course, keep on examining opportunities whether it is more of a dilution in the renewable platform or anywhere else that we can arrange. But I only want to tell you that this will not be a showstopper or a deterrent for growth. You have seen that nearly 1.5 years back, we went for a press capital from the promoters also. So if money is required for growth, that will come. Now options are very many whether we, in fact, initially, we thought that instead of INR 4000 crores, we might get the INR 6,000 crores and all that. So maybe at some stage, we can look at further diluting it. But at this stage, it is not required. So let's first go and spend this money. If I don't spend this money and then I start talking about fresh infusion, it will not meet the eye of any of the investors. So let's first go and do that once we have use this money, then we can definitely look at the options. But this is something that we keep on. The finance team continues to keep on examining the market opportunity. And we'll definitely do it at the right time.

Secondly, on this, sir, on the capital side of business or let's say, the acquisition side, we haven't done much in the recent past, right? While our competitors have gone and said, are they having more captive for the group companies, which have large the -- enlarge their pipeline. While we haven't done anything similar for Tata to or other group companies in a very sizable number. And we also will not be active in acquisition. Given that the pending is very competitive, we don't think it's better to acquire assets, which are available cheaply or a credit assets across the country and make a size or play is testing insight. So we didn't do the acquisition. We did the [indiscernible] acquisition and it has turned around. It has done very well, much more than our expectation. So we did the dual acquisition for DISCOMs in one go. We have done now recently the acquisition in transmission. Now many of the projects and especially the green projects, even if they -- some of them give me a face value or give me also, I would not be keen to take that. Many of them up pathetic. So good luck to people who have taken it. But not that all acquisitions are good acquisitions, we need to be careful. And people do a lot of pipeline. I mentioned to you that they'll say I have a pipeline of 5 gigawatt. When you get into it, you realize this 5 gigawatt will become a winners. So I would not like to look at many of these investment opportunities because they're not meeting our require. If they are distressed assets, if they come in the market, which will happen in the next few years, many of these green assets will become distressed, then we will take captive piece of business.

[indiscernible] from the group companies, do you think the large opportunity, which we...

We have already done something like 250 megawatt. So whether it is Tata Steel, Tata Motors -- yesterday only we got another 7.5 megawatt of Tata Motors. And we've done a carport in Pune for Tata Motors for 15 megawatt. So there's nearly 200 -- 250 megawatts of projects. Tata Steel, we are implementing now 15 megawatts. So a whole lot of projects are going on within the Tata Group. And now we are offering them 24/7 renewable solutions. So even for their electronics factory or the new factories that they will be setting up, all of them will go for a clean energy solutions. So there is a huge opportunity, and we are working on all those projects to see that in next few years, they all transition to green energy.

Sir, will we be the exclusive partner for them to meet their RT obligations?

Absolutely. You know that we have a platform with Tata Steel, which is known as IEL, where we now -- all the new capacities for Tata Steel is coming through that. Similarly, Tata Chemicals, we are in the process of discussing with them that how we can have a similar platform arrangement. So we'll definitely be working with all the companies. And now that the consolidation is happening in a much larger way, and I mentioned about the EV, how we are working across companies. Similarly, in all the future power requirement, especially green power requirement, we will be exclusively working with all of them.

On CGPL, sir? Of course, we haven't touched the coal side of business -- how do you think about CGPL and Indonesian coal business over the next few years?

So the Indonesian coal business is doing very good. The license was renewed and under the new terms, the plant is operating. In the prices internationally are very good prices. It will make good profit in the coming years. At least for the next 12 to 18 months, we expect the prices will remain in the similar sort of range. And we expect good returns from our investment over there. We have also earlier mentioned that at some stage, we will divest -- now what will be that stage is depending upon what sort of valuation we get. And what sort of opportunity we are seeing in terms of divesting. So we will definitely look at it at the right time. We should not be selling cheap at this stage or at any state. So that's an area that we will consider. Secondly, our CGPL, right now, it is operating under Section 11, where we are getting a full pass-through of tariff coal cost. We expect some resolution to happen. We are in final 1 or 2 points. It's not that there's a huge amount. It's not now talking about the original PPA. It's talking about what is the arrangement which is acceptable to both the sites. So somewhere in between of the original PPA and the full pass-through of cost, some arrangement will come somewhere in between, which will be definitely much better than what we were earlier.

You say, new PPA, are we -- do we have the larger [ states ] on board, especially Maharashtra and Gujarat?

Larger?

Larger [ states ], larger uptake, the states which are larger uptaker of the CGPL. Gujarat and Maharashtra, are they on Board?

So the -- what has been agreed is that once we decide with Gujarat, the other states will also follow. So Gujarat has been given the mandate by Ministry of Power that you finalize this arrangement. And once whatever you decide, the others will follow on that.

Sir, this is Rohit from Antique. My first question has more to do with the slide where you showed 4x jump in the net profit by FY '27. What is the coal's profitability in that jump that you have assumed? The contribution of coal profit through joint ventures that comes through. How much is that number being plugged? And ex of coal, what will be that number looking like?

Coal generation or the coal?

With coal, Indonesia part.

The Indonesia. The details Kasturi will be able to share with you that what is the profit that has been considered.

Can I answer that. I think as Dr. Sinha already mentioned, we do expect the coal prices to be higher for a year or 2, but what you see is a like-for-like comparison in terms of a real improvement in the margins and the ROE profile. So it's kind of coming through more efficiencies, larger skills of operations and a better capital allocation mix.

Sure. My second question is on the storage-based model that you showed in the RTC part in Renewable 2.0 that you identify. How do you see -- foresee the levelized cost of the storage with tariffs going down? I mean what will be that number looking like maybe 5 years down the line?

We are definitely looking at sub INR 5 in terms of storage. So we are not looking at very high prices. And that's why, again, we have to be very calibrated in the type of storage solutions that we are talking. And whether it is the pump storage or it is the electrical storage through batteries. And we are ourselves working. In fact, someone did ask me in the morning that are you doing pump storage. And we are doing pump storage as we speak. Our pump storage project in Bhira is under the implementation. And we have plans to further expand that. So the first phase will get implemented by next year, October, December. And the second phase, of course, will happen by '24, '25. So pump storage, we are doing there. The second one will be a much bigger capacity. We will be doing a pump storage in Bhivpuri. The feasibility study is under discussion. Similarly, we are in discussion with some of the other state hydro plants if we can do the pump storage. So we don't want to go and set up a greenfield pump storage project and all that. In the existing hydro projects, which have reservoirs, and have bonded for water, we'll be doing the pump storage.

So what about in the battery part? I mean...

Battery part also, I mentioned to you that we are doing now battery storage project for SECI and others in Ladakh and Chhattisgarh. We've done the 10-megawatt battery storage project in Delhi. We will definitely be doing some more battery projects on our own when the bids happen. So that will definitely happen as a part of our 24/7 offering of renewable power.

Sure. And my final question is on the cell and module manufacturing. The one that you identified, 4.6 gigawatt, I mean, does it include that you have an integrated plan of maybe doing polysilicon plus ingots, wafers, like are you purely looking at cell importing ingots and wafers from somewhere else?

Yes. We are right now only looking at cell and module. We do not feel that today, the technology is available of a scale that we would like to have the polysilicon. And that's the reality. You can do your own research and figure out whether the policy on technology is available for the scale that we require in our country and of the quality that we require in the country for manufacturing electronic grid. So right now, we are not going into that. But if suppose we are able to access that sort of technology, and we have a partner who will bring that sort of technology, then we can possibly examine. But right now, we will import wafers from wherever we can get. And there's no duty on wafers at present.

In your presentation, you talked a lot about the services part of the business as well. What proportion of the revenue or EBITDA is currently coming from services? And where do you see it going in the next 5 years?

I think it's a very, very small part in terms of services. It's kind of, I think, close to about INR 30 crores, INR 40 crores that we are doing right now, but just likely to say that there's a potential to go up to INR 900 crores by '27, right? So that's the potential. So we're talking more about the potential right now rather than what we have right now. But with all the services put together, there is a lot of potential. And MD did mention about solutions on smart metering and whatnot. Those revenues are opening up for us, and we are very keenly observing that space. And I'm very sure, we think that we'll have a good potential going forward there.

And ex of smart metering, would you still expect INR 900 crore kind of number? Or is smart fitting the bulk of the services revenue?

It's a combination of all the services that we'll have across and is largely sitting for the Transmission and Distribution businesses that we have, right? At the moment, it's small, but the potential is quite big. I think a lot of opportunities are opening up both in terms of regulations, policy framework, and it will bring in a lot of opportunities for us.

My second question is on the capital allocation within the green business. What kind of debt equity mix do you intend to go with given that most of your peers are upwards of 70%. Would you also go down the same path? Or are you trying to be more equity heavy?

So I think we'll have a twin policy structure here. At the Tata Power level, as you've seen in the presentation itself, we do not want to have a debt equity beyond 2, right? And then for an infrastructure company to kind of still deliver 2 is an incredible task. Within those clusters and especially the green cluster as they alluded, they're kind of looking at about 3x over there, which would mean that at a regular interval, we'll have to fully pass it and do whatever in order to raise also equity in order to keep our debt leverage at a very controllable level. We do not want to get into a game of 9x, 10x and then be reported subsequently by some research papers saying that the company's over leverage and there's a bubble setting. We are not in that game.

So definitely not more than 75, 25?

Yes. Definitely no way.

Okay. And on your acquisitions, you'll probably do some acquisitions. You also alluded that there will be opportunities in future on the renewable side. Would that happen under the Resurgent Platform? Or would it happen directly by Tata Power?

All the green acquisitions will happen on the renewable platform. Resurgent Platform, we had set up for only conventional Generation and Transmission. Whatever was the fund amount has been fully used now because we recently went for the Transmission projects. So it has no more money now on its own, until and unless the promoters again go ahead and want to invest further. So at present, that fund is closed and the renewal will be through the platform. It will not be through any other.

Okay. Understood. The last one is on the cell and module plant, which you are setting up. Will you also be eligible for the PLI benefit? Or because you started earlier, you will miss out on that benefit?

So the new PLI has not come. As per the government notification, any plant, which has been ordered after 1st November 2021, will be eligible for the PLI benefit. But let's see when it comes out and when we bid for it and whether we'll get it. But prima facie, the eligibility is first November 2021. And I think we are eligible for that.

And on the cell side, you talked about the PERC technology, but future technologies are likely to be [ Topcon ] and then maybe [ HJT ]. Would it be easily -- easy to convert the plant to those technologies? Or would you need substantial CapEx there?

So right now, we are using the [ Topcon ]. [ HJT ] is still not right, still under development in a lot of places. So these have a shelf life of about 5 to 6 years. So maybe by the time the [ HJT ] develops in 5 to 6 years, we'll possibly. So these are lines that you need to do the replacement. Earlier, we used to do the multi, now we have one for mono. And once [ HJT ] comes, we'll put in the fresh line for that.

But the new lines you said is going to be [ Topcon ].

Yes.

I'm Sumit Kishore from Axis Capital. My sincere compliments on your presentation, and it really comes across how difficult it is to turn around a distribution area as big as Orissa. And we see that the AT&C loss numbers are actually coming off quite fast. So my compliments. Our job is a lot easier looking on the Excel sheet and with all the projections that you have given us for the next 5 years. So on ROE and ROCE, when you say that you want to take your ROEs to over 13%, ROCE between 11% to 11% plus. Most of your capital -- incremental capital allocation is in green. If you could help us disaggregate the ROE and ROCE aspiration. So specifically, in green, there is utility scale solar, rooftop solar, pumps, certain element of allocation to EVs and microgrids. So if we could take each of these, we know there has been a bit of experience over the last few quarters, margins have been hit for various reasons. But I would like to understand that over a 4 to 5 years' time frame, what is your disaggregated ROE, ROCE strategy for these businesses? And specifically, we understand in utility-scale solar when you develop these projects, it's more of an IRR concept. It's not really ROE that one should be actually tracking. So that's really my first question. We know you've run T&D for 100 years, so we know what ROEs you're able to deliver there. And in terms of the threshold level that you kept seeing, if you could spell out your threshold level exactly, what does that threshold really mean for you in terms of returns?

Yes. As you rightly mentioned that in renewable, it is not the ROE, but is the IRR. And in IRR, the threshold is nothing less than what we get in a regulated business.

So you would say 13% plus equity IRR?

Yes. Mid-teens, I would say. So anything less than that, there's no point in. We can then do only Transmission and Distribution. So why I should go and do anything, which will give me anything less. So that's where -- but the breakup and all that, I don't know. You have details?

I think the answer lies in your query itself. If on the green portfolio, you're moving from 30%, 34% to almost carbon neutral by 2024 and by 2030, almost 75% plus. And if the green business, we are looking at a mid-teen kind of IRR and with the capital allocation automatically in a simple equation, the ROE and the return on capital have to move in. But if you want a little more breakup, we can always share with you. But the way if you see the pie right now, right, of course, the major contribution has to come from the green business. The other business is when you're talking about EV charging segment of things, in the overall scheme of things will be very small, right? So even if the ROE on those particular subclusters or subsegment move by a full percentage here and there, it will not really matter. The big thing that I think it would track as a pecking order, number one, is the IRR that we get on the green energy business, right? Second, of course, we have a very established Transmission and Distribution business, where we're also getting a very steady IRR. Then comes to Generation. While we have very clearly said that Generation is not a place that we will be investing further. But believe it or not, still a steady cash flow business, barring one of the businesses that we're talking about. And there's a question of discussion on Mudra every time, but that is in a way compensated through our coal mines, right? Remaining other businesses you put together in one bucket. For timing, you can say, it's more experimental, and we'll keep on growing, right? Even if I [indiscernible] the summary would be the same.