Time Technoplast Limited (TIMETECHNO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Q1 FY '21 Earnings Conference Call of Time Technoplast Limited hosted by PhillipCapital India Private Limited. This conference call may contain forward-looking statements about the company, which are based on the beliefs, opinions and expectations of the company as on the date of this call. These statements are not the guarantees of future performance and involve risks and uncertainties that are difficult to predict. As a reminder, all [indiscernible] lines will be on listen only mode. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Vikram Suryavanshi from PhillipCapital India Private Limited. Thank you. And over to you, Mr. Suryavanshi.

Thank you, Michelle. Good afternoon, and very warm welcome to everyone. Thank you for being on the call of Time Technoplast Limited. We are happy to have the management with us here today for question and answer session with investment community. . Management is represented by Mr. Bharat Vageria, Managing Director; Mr. Raghupathy Thyagarajan, Whole-Time Director; Mr. Sandip Modi, Senior Vice President, Accounts and Corporate Planning; Mr. Hemant Soni, Vice President, Legal and Corporate. Before we start with the question-and-answer session, we'll have opening comments from the management. Now I hand over the call to Mr. Bharat for opening comments. Over to you, sir.

Yes. Thank you for the introduction Vikram, and good afternoon to all of you. We are here essentially to talk about our results on the Q1 FY 2024 and outlook for the rest of the year. We are pleased to begin the year on an encouraging note with a good year-on-year volume growth of 18% and revenue growth of 14%, driven by demand in the industrial having and the most growth in CNG composite cylinder which is 83%. Profit after tax for Q1 also increased by 26% in the year, led by higher utilization of capacities demand of a type 4 component cylinders for CNG, gas cats continue to be robust return honorable position of around INR 2,025 crores. With strong growth in sales of value-added products, composite cylinder LPG and CNG, along with the stable own industrial marketing business, we are highly optimistic the strong performance for the full year. Coming to the financial numbers, the results are already announced what I will just walk you through some of the key financial and operational highlights that are during the Q1 FY '24 pre figure also, I will lead for comparison on the consolidated basis. Net sales stood at INR 1,080 crores. I'm glad to tell you in the first Q1 of any -- our issue of the company is the highest business is INR 1,080 crores. And last year, it was INR 945 crores, EBITDA of INR 180.48 crores is against INR 124 crores. Profit after tax at INR 56 crores is against INR 44 crores. Cash of INR 103 crores as against INR 86 crores. It's compared with the previous corresponding quarter previous, I just in terms of the percentage. Net sales increased by 14%. Volume increased by 18%, EBITDA increased by 19%, paid increased by 26%. In the overseas business is 15% overseas 13% as far as the revenue part is concerned. Volume increase is concerned 19% and overseas, India and 19% overseas 17%. Net margin stood at 13.7% as against 13.1% an improvement of 60 basis points due to higher share of the value-added products and increasing the capacity utilization. Now share of the business, publish product was valuated product Reed product grew by 24% in Q1 FY '24 as compared to Q1 FY '23. While established products grew by 12%, the share of value products has been 24% of total sales in Q1 FY '24 as against 22% in Q1 FY '23. Share of India and overseas, the only share is 53% and 37%. EBITDA margin in an overseas are cutting or 13.9% and 13.4% per TV. NAS visit Net cash from the operating activity generated in Q1 INR 74 crores. And I'm glad to inform you that is reduced by INR 32 crores in Q1. The total CapEx is also within the budget in the Q1 INR 43 crores. which includes towards the capacity expansion engineering automation, considering the cost of the level cost is increasing. And INR 26 crores for the value products that [indiscernible] products. Furthermore, as in Home in the last call, the company has undertaken Phase 2 expansion plan for increasing the manufacturing capacity percentage CNG casket but casket per annum However, under the Phase 2 expansion, the company can utilize the capacity to manufacture cylinder both CNG and Green Hydrogen. Now I know that all my valued participants in this call are -- would like to know about consolidation from restructuring of overseas business. I'm happy to inform you that discussion with the prospective buyers are at an advanced stage in 2 different geographies that is, as we know that overseas, we have possession of 10 countries, 2 geographies, we are talking. That is in Southeast Asia and the U.S. Retail. We are confident of bringing a positive closure shortly. The company strategy of shifting the valuation based on the year 2022 calendar year result and splitting the geography to facilitate discussion with a different prospective buyers as well. As informed earlier, the process will be used for the repayment of the debt. CapEx for the composite cylinder, LPG, CNG in hydrogen and core businesses in India to meet [indiscernible] market demand and will also be used to deliver to the shareholders. Now I would like to offer the floor towards specific question, if any. Thank you.

[Operator Instructions]

Can you hear me there?

Yes, yes, yes.

Okay. So last year, capacity we made around INR 150 crores. Now we have capacity around 200 kinds of that. So shouldn't our revenue capability be around INR 350 crores or something like that?

You have other questions or this is the question.

I had a couple of more questions. .

So you I tell you, you just give me the questions, I will answer your [ random ] questions any time. Number one, we want to understand of [ cat cap ] and out of 4 [indiscernible] education, what is the revenue can be generated right? Number two, what question is that?

Number 2 is -- we also mentioned in the slide deck about a composite cylinder for oxygen for [indiscernible] again. I just want to understand what is the addressable months for that in terms of revenue?

Okay. Market size, you want to invest, right? .

Okay. And just another question. Third question. That is all from my side. Third thing is it the demand in India among the LPG distribution companies also capped with the with our [indiscernible] it looks like the international demand is also capped because we are not thinking of our expansion and capacity on the LPG side at all [indiscernible]. So is that the case? Or do we see any international demand also?

So I'll answer the first question. But we had a capacity available up to the March 2022 [ 181 casket ] and for which have been expanded to [ 40 number casket ]. So we want to understand only or cash at, what is the maximum revenue can be generated as I think INR 325 crores as a 90%, 85% to 90% cap utilization is possible. And this, we are targeting and taken them under our consideration by current year Okay. Number two, composed of market size you are selling if you've gone to a presentation where you mentioned what are the composite product overall market size Yes, there may be the combination of using the composite cylinder, metal cylinder in other cylinder. Market size, looking in the government new policy, which has announcing 2022 and the gas situation are not read to the various participant. You will find total market sizes around entire side of the cylinder INR 22,000 crores business eventually there. But if we have taken the application for each of the cylinders the CNG cascade, compressed biogas and maybe the automotive industry. We can estimate business of around INR 2,500 crores in the 3 to 4 years' time for these composite products. Out of the total market requirement because total market as I mentioned for CNG casket, global GP unit, compress biogas, gas and option, CNG for intra city was Bites is around INR 29,000 crores. It is different is for the policy for a couple CNG-policy for 8 years [indiscernible] 4 years, all are there. time or a business is INR 6,200 crores. Out of that the composite products based on the advantage of the component products, which we are manufacturing, the net can be a INR 2,500 crores in the next 4 to 3 to 2 years' time. Now you are asking the third question was regarding to LTE. You are right. LPG, we have a capacity for million, 1.4 million cylinder when we produce 1 size, but we manufacture different sizes, we consider around 1 million cylinders as a utilization capacity. Yes, our utilization is almost around 85% to 90% because ISG order is there is 1 of the gas distribution companies. Other to gas distribution companies are also under pipeline. They have also started using this composite cylinder. And our export is also more than 48 countries duties continue. We had in the last call also, we have seen rate clearly expansion will take next year. Then the other gas distribution company will also come out. And we will also have results from a CN distribution in ongoing in the last 18 months and further revs going to the continue. So we are not talking LPG expansion as this currently is concerned because -- we are already in the end for the CNG and hydrogen cylinders expansion or is in very well it is progressing them all.

We'll take the next question from the line of [ Jatin Damania from Cote].

So first, on the we saw the current order book '25 and looking at the government prospect next 3, 4 years looks good. But as we seen any tender getting opened or like what will be a bidding for next 1 year or 2 years and when the tender actually do get amount?

Okay. Any other question you had?

Yes. The second question on the overseas definitely. I mean if you look at the overseas business is less margin as compared to what India is. But since you have already mentioned that you are in the discussion stage with the prospect you had and shifting the valuation base from Finance '21 to '22 or '23. So I mean, on darts, what is the valuation once you work out renew your leasing of the asset and goes numbers can highlight and if I am the overall arenite business.

Now I think question number one, you're asking about order book is the continuous process. Order in order if it continues -- whoever customers are giving order for the CNG casket, they give us a schedule because they are also ordering [indiscernible] need the vehicles to carrying their take casket. So it's a continued process. But as we mentioned, as far as order book is concerned, INR 45 crores is orders in and already on date. Other tenders already some submitted some discussion. So time to time, quarter-on-quarter, we update about the order is , right?

I must clarify to you as well the companies are realizing the advantages of the high-pressure cylinders of composites that have been manufactured by a company times. So the tenders are also getting modified accordingly. I'm very pleased to inform you that being only managed of such large-sized cases. High special cylinders in India. We almost have a track record of about 100% on most of the tenders that are coming from. So I think that should go well for the future as well.

So then your question regarding the overseas business, I mentioned to you, yes, in the advantage valuation part is concerned, yes, our venues, our advisers are in contact with them. So at consent, I can't give you any object because of vision but definitely, we will update you as and when we will annualize that.

A couple of more questions, if I can squeeze in.

We have mentioned already that as we obviously, as we mentioned very clearly repayment of the debt CapEx for NPC and hydrogen in India and definitely, we'll cover all of that in this -- our valuation part.

A couple of questions from my side, if I can squeeze in.

Yes.

On the -- I mean, 1 more question that I would like to understand on the industrial packaging. Now globally, you're asking a downturn in terms of the chemicals industry. And definitely, export market as far as the industrial packaging concern is to go. So have you seen any pressures from -- in terms of the demand in the industrial package or in terms of the margin compression on the industrial packaging. And lastly, it is an update on the operation business on the MH planes.

You are asked you want to understand about the packaging business overseas.

Yes.

I -- we have seen that except the U.S. part, other 2 geographies, we have not seen any kind of pressure. Yes, we have seen the U.S. market in turn down by 20%. But you know that our overall geographical distribution, the revenue in U.S. or overseas revenue out of that entire 18% overseas revenue out of that we get from USA, 15% from Southeast Asia plus Taiwan and 13% from Middle East. So U.S. is down we have seen around 15% to 20%, but that's not a back in overall growth estimation of the companies because we have a good seeing demand of Dinars advantage in the other Asian countries. Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia like that. And Middle East is also doing very well. Overall, growth in overseas market, which we are estimating in packaging to 13% that is online. We are not seeing any kind of pressure on the margin of the big cases. Even margins is going to be expanded by 10 to 23 basis point is going to improve.

And after the box [indiscernible] March, very, very small percentage of overall revenue. But hopefully, you want to understand in the season is online. It's a good business. You know that in March in a maximum best we can do around INR 150 crores to INR 160 crores that current capacity. We are not expanding in that particular product because you -- we have seen in the COVID period, it was affected this business. But yes, is going to continue. There is not any much margin pressure also because we have product best on the quality of the products. So not affecting any much about that. In fact, you the revenue of bundled in INR 20 crores or INR 40 crores revenue out of approximately around 5% revenue, it's only 2.5% of my total.

We'll take the next question from the line of Madhur Rathi from Counter Cyclical Investments.

Sir, I just wanted to understand our EBITDA margins, like 2, 3 years back, we have highlighted that our value-added product EBITDA margin would be around 20% and 40% from composed products. So I just wanted to understand the decline in margins, is it purely from raw material increase price increases? Or is there any different factors behind that. And second thing was I wanted to understand about the about how much market like as you say, INR 2,500 crores market in 3 to 4 years. So how much can we get out of that? And what kind of shift are you seeing from steel to composite materials in the CNG and LPG and how much exponential that can.

I got your point, but I think you want to understand that the EBITDA margin is not a at you see except the for period where the EBITDA margin was in the range of 11% to 13%. That is because of the certain products were not allowed to manufacture within the community here. You keep part of COVID figures then after our always is their EBITDA margin was in the range of 13% to 15%. And we are in that line afterwards because after the first over full year. Last year, we achieved a EBITDA margin of 14% more over the year. And further, I have already mentioned in my call also, diluted product EBITDA margin is continuing in the range of around 18% to 22%. So average maybe around 20% in the value-added product margins are there. And that is going to be continued. And because whatever we have a 92% business is B2B witness, where half of an increase or decrease to be our customer. So we are not affected by what kind of a volatility prices in the commodity product or volume, but we have a system of marking with the customer. So we definitely, as our media product is going to be expand and expanding already. So EBITDA margin 20, 30 basis points is going to improve year-on-year. And you want to understand about the growth plan definitely, company management product in hand, estimating over 15% growth around the of the year across the products.

And the was 30% to 40% EBITDA margin increase for every person in value-add products. Is that correct?

Of course is increasing, expansion and the utilization is increasing. Yes, all of the year EBITDA margin will definitely see the improvement which currently in terms of the percentage, we have seen the EBITDA margin currently EBITDA margin in 2013 is 7%. You are seeing happening was 7% EBITDA margin as against last year, 13.1%. And you have seen all of the year FY '23 EBITDA margin was 13.5%. So certainly, you will see improvement in the margin, maybe 30, 40, 50 basis points and the utilization and quarter-on-quarter revenue will increase.

We'll take the next question from the line of Karan [indiscernible] Gupta from [CAVI Capital].

Sir, I just wanted to check in again on the sale of the overseas business now. In your opening comments, you mentioned that you are in top 2 of the 10 geographies. So is that all that limited to? Or are we looking to divest all 10 geographies? Or if you could just tell us a little bit more about that?

In any fact, I tell you as 2 geographies as second third also in Basel, but will take after completion is 2 out of 10. No, no, no, I can just tell you. We have a plan of overseas countries, clients in the in overseas countries. Now I mentioned to you in countries witnessing huge 3ographies. For example 2 geographies are in discussion.

Okay. No. I mean, you would appreciate that we've been very patient shareholders.

No, I know. And as we are also having our passions and we are also talking since last, I can say, after the results the last 6 months also, we are talking [indiscernible] geographies that I mentioned in you, Middle East is the 1 part, who country [indiscernible] per year, South East Asia, 5 countries we have a process, U.S. as 1 part. So this we consider the predicate out of that 2 geographies. And as I mentioned to you in my in the beginning is way that at this stage.

Fair enough. And sir, on the domestic business, we have a number of plants that are spread throughout the country. Are there any plans for any kind of consolidation? Or do you think this is the most efficient structure for our activities currently.

Looking on, currently you are right. Consolidation, we are talking it's a routine process. Always we'll do better logistic advantage. So India, we have a presence in 16 locations to definitely cost free zone. And wherever we need minimum size level of business management that decided to continue the location. If that location is not getting the required revenue, then that will be consolidated to the new or high location. So on 1 -- at the same time, there are no recoveries also. New geographies will be when the requirement is coming more.

Okay. So what I'm trying to get to is actually also on our return on capital. So we had some targets that we discussed about a year, 1.5 years ago. I just wanted to understand your trajectory towards achieving the...

Right, you can or you I have mentioned in my last call also in many meetings. We are consolidating not only the overseas business by this investment. But yes, in India, product consolidation also we are doing, as I mentioned last time also, certain products, we had a revenue of less than INR 40 crores a year. We have businesses like multi-price have closed down. The gene health care products, small products were there. We also go down. So [indiscernible] management has decided now to continue and do the products where the revenue is more. And if this process is going to be continued. So here, you are right. I mentioned and you know that target on the ROCE, which is currently 13.5% the around is going to be 19 in the next year is a target, and we are on that achievement of the target. For that, what we've already on and a quarter-on-quarter, you will see the progress. Because we -- you know that the only repayment of the adaptive market target of the increasing the ROCE, but yes, product regulation sale will increase. EBITDA margin is respond, reduction in the working also in radar combination of various factors, we enable me to enable us to increase EBITDA this ROCE to 19% in the 10 years' time.

Right, sir. Do you have any shorter-term targets, so it sees 3 years out maybe by the end of fiscal '24 fall? Do you have any shorter-term targets that you're internally working with for returns on capital?

Yes, you can take, as I mentioned to you currently 13.5%, and I want to achieve 19%, 19% minus 13.5% the difference 5.25% and 1.5% to 1% realize increase be able to see that.

We'll take the next question from the line of [Tipa Agarwal] from [Nivesh].

Sir, my question is, what is the current capacity utilization of the [indiscernible] a commenced?

Pardon me?

My question is, what is the capacity utilization of the Baget plant, which is recently commenced.

As [indiscernible] auxilliary companies like TPM Plastics just public and green manufacturing fully automatic plant in is for manufacturing of packaged products and where the -- that is for plastic drums, silicons and IVC. It's just being because you know that in the first quarter always, when there were new plants all vendors lead to approvals supporting, testing, internal is and approvals that are being required. Already started target. But at the end of the year, we are estimating the utilization in the first year itself to reach around 50% to 60% in all of the year.

Okay. And my next question is, could you please use the segment of how is it panning out what are the best what are the success next quarter will be urea?

You're talking specific on what of the projects?

[indiscernible] sorry.

Mr. Raghupathy will explain this.

On the urea tank, we've already developed 2 models in consolidation with the OEM companies and we have also started the business for urea times. It was very recognized OEMs as well. So these are 1 of the 2 fast-moving models that are there. There are another 3, 4 models which are also there in the pipeline as we are in a position to see the Euro 6, which is being enforced, the development of these rates have taken larger momentum. And especially to commercial vehicles, I think we have been more or less we should be to complete this requirement in the next 1 or 2 years.

Any expected revenue guideline from the same segment?

No. In fact, I tell you, it is one of the low-voltage products leasing is developed with the product depending on their models also. [indiscernible] any kind of product-wise revenue, especially to Europe. But I can tell you about the segment revenue, where we get around 3% to 4% or more total revenue. So that will be where we are also estimating in our overall projections.

Okay. My last question is regarding the oxygen cylinder. Are we at and have some order booking position is factoring?

Talking about the oxygen cylinder right?

Yes.

Mr. Raghupathy will answer about that.

We have developed these oxygen cylinders in 2 sizes very specific to begin with. These are mostly used for people who are in the higher altitude or diving or even firefighting, et cetera. Order bookings are already there. They've already been booked. The product has been also got the approval. We should be launching this product probably anytime soon, probably in the next month or so, we should be [indiscernible].

It is part of the composite products only.

Okay. Can I ask one more question? The last one?

Yes, yes, you can ask.

I want to know the CNG Cascade. In what verticals are we currently supplying the CNG Cascades? Do you have huge order [indiscernible] a swell. I would like to acknowledge that.

Yes. You would appreciate the CNG Cascade is nothing but a tank of cylinders, which are kind of connected together to enable the carrying of the CNG gas from one mother station to the retail outlet. So basically, these are kind of a mobile storage tank which are used by the CGD companies or the gas distribution companies to transport the CNG from their mother station to the distribution. So that's the place where the Cascades are used. We have whatever capacity, limited capacity that we have, we have more or less utilized in -- for that kind of application. The next step that we have planned for CNG will -- is also taking into account the cylinder design and the respective sizes for use in the automotive sector. And that is when you will find these cylinders are also being used for [ drums ] and the passenger vehicles also. So some of those applications with the high-pressure lightweight cylinders will come into being as we roll out the expansion budget. So right now, our cylinder business is focused on CNG Cascades where we are fully utilizing the capacity.

We'll take the next question from the line of [ Doli Choudhury ] from Nivesh Investment Advisors.

A few questions [indiscernible] applications. So it has been mentioned in previous calls that more of the players are currently [indiscernible] manufacturing of these vendors as they are into assembly of this. So I wanted to know the update on that? And what is the price differential between the 2 products?

Could you repeat the first part of the question?

So as mentioned previously that [indiscernible] manufacturing of these CNG cylinders. We are more into the assembly of them. I wanted to understand the price difference between the products? And what is the [indiscernible]?

Yes, admittedly we continue to be the only manufacturer for the latest technological innovation that is called the [indiscernible]. There are other players seen in the -- in manufacturing India, that is the type 1 that is made of conventional cylinders. So to many very large extent, these type 4 composition is going replacement of the steel cylinders. And there, the rate reduction is almost to the extent of about 80% or so. Price difference notwithstanding these advantages of heat rate reduction brings about a lot of convenience to the people using these cylinders because they are able to carry more gas and probably even drive the vehicle lighter, gives you a better mileage. So these are the reasons to why these composite cylinders are a runaway success in any geography that they have been put to use. So I am in a position to really see that also developing in this market as well.

Sir, I was talking about other players in Type IV cylinders. Your said that they are more into assembly of these cylinders, not into manufacturing. [indiscernible] previously.

So [indiscernible] Type I [indiscernible] to explain you, in fact, I think [indiscernible], we talked about the CNG cylinder. Now the CNG cylinder [indiscernible] complete [indiscernible] CNG Cascades, it is the one complete in some way the similar will be mounted and that Cascade will load it on the truck and that we do is the model station to the filling station. Because new gas stations are coming. Now [indiscernible] is different, where automotive OEM manufacturers mean by the cylinder, no need cash cap from them. So they will buy the CNG cylinder from us in different sizes based on their capacity on the issue of the vehicle. As my partners mentioned to you, we will see that use of automobile after next year only when we are meeting with our expansion plan. So presently, my order book is healthy for the CNG Cascades [indiscernible] While the individual cylinders, we are not selling it currently.

Okay. Sir, my other question is regarding other synergy. So the same thing and [indiscernible] from modular mobile stations. I wanted to understand what is that? And is the company planning to cater into this segment?

The mobile stations that you are talking about is the one which is basically for carrying the CNG gases for running together, number one application. Number two application is the gases that are being generated out of the [indiscernible] biogas stations that are there, so they also require higher [indiscernible]. So wherever you have high-pressure requirement for these gases to be stored, these cylinders will grow in as a tank. It will be stored either on a stationary basis or probably on a mobile basis.

Okay, sir. And the last question is regarding the restructuring. So I wanted to know the restructuring that you're planning happens with your claims. So what was the revenue loss from that? And what is the [indiscernible] planning to recover from the domestic [indiscernible]?

Yes, I think a good question you asked. Because one thing and you oversee revenue in the range of around INR 1,400 crores. In that business, we are internally estimating to reap the next 3 years' time or 2 years' time because considering the growth of -- for example, last year, we did business of INR 4,298 crores. If you exclude of INR 1,300 crores, our balance is INR 2,900 crores. We'll come back to the original level of this turnover of maybe around INR 4,000 crores over and above that in the next 2 years' time. But one thing, again, I mentioned, we are not divesting the 100% equity. We will continue the [indiscernible] investment will continue.

Okay. I just had one last question. So that company is finally focus -- focusing on value-added segment. So I wanted to understand the industrial packaging and like what share can we achieve with the current capacity in the current -- in this year or 2, 3 years in industrial packaging?

I mention to you, our growth estimate, we are making over 15%, maybe around17% packaging business. We are estimating and the chemical industry is growing. Volume growth is there. Looking to the [indiscernible] Around, I can say, 12% to 13% growth we are estimating. For certain under products, we are estimating growth more. Composite products, we are estimating more than 35% growth. In the 5 business, we are estimating growth of around 13% because last year's business was large industry [indiscernible] business. Overall, 17% more than 20%, we are estimating. Marketing business is receivable asking, maybe in the range of around 12%.

We will take the next question from the line of [ Ganesh Srong ] from GK Advisors.

Okay. So how much of our composite value-added revenue is coming from the overseas bucket?

I think I just clarify you. Over this location, we manufacture only the packaging product. That is partition, silicon, conipails and IBC. We don't have any composite products in overseas.

Got it, got it. So just one clarifying question from my previous [indiscernible]. So we have the specific section of [ 4 million ] in [ leasing air applications ] for composite cylinders. I need to know what is your revenue potential just for those applications, sir?

I think we've already given you guidance on the overall composite cylinder business. So it's difficult for us to give you a break up on [indiscernible] overall my [indiscernible] has already given indications also on the projected revenue for [indiscernible].

It will be, [indiscernible] composite revenue, we are estimating around more than INR 500 crores this year. That's against the [ INR 350 crores ] we did last year. And this year, it's changing together.

We'll take the next question from the line of [ Sipak Phutar ] from [ Safari Capital. ]

So first off, I just wanted to understand more on the opportunity on the hydrogen sector basically. So what sort of opportunity we are seeing? And I think we were working on developing the hydrogen cylinder technology, right? So how -- where we are in that particular segment?

Well, this is one of the most promising development segments that we are into [indiscernible] potential that is already getting captured. The development of the hydrogen cylinder has been very, very positive because we've been able to develop very successfully the hydrogen cylinder in-house. And we successfully the [indiscernible] prescribed by the international standards [indiscernible]. We will be moving the application to PESO for the approval next year. The development of the hydrogen cylinders have also been calculated in our expansion plan. So the new expansion plan that is capacity plant that is being setup next year should also in a position to be able to successfully commercially exploit the hydrogen cylinder potential to begin with. Some part of the capacity we are not put that applications as well. As far as the potential for the hydrogen cylinders are concerned, you know that it is a huge global opportunity that is really coming up. There is every geography, every country that you hear about, they are looking at hydrogen as an opportunity to decarbonize it. India is also -- has had a very ambitious target for it. So based upon our successful models on the composite cylinder for LPG and CNG, we are very, very positively poised towards exporting that potential as well.

Okay. So what I understand is that the development of hydrogen cylinder, I mean, it's on the positive side, right? And we will be moving for approval to PESO maybe next year for our product?

That's right.

Next year means then in 2024, right?

That's right.

By this time, I think we are already saying at all. We will [indiscernible] something about the good development in hydrogen [indiscernible].

Come again, sir. I didn't get you.

By this time, as currently, we are in the month of August. Next year, by this time, we will come to know good news about the iron and cylinder development.

August '24?

Yes.

Okay. I understand. And what sort of, I mean, capacity would be -- we would be looking to create in this particular segment, hydrogen cylinder?

I say to you. You see my last conversation when I mentioned that currently, expansion is coming only for the CNG cylinder in the silicon-based gas cap. But we are buying certain equipment so that certain we can do the sheet marketing for hydrogen cylinder. The major capacity expansion, we will see in 2025, '26, when the gas -- the hydrogen gas is made available. So we will [indiscernible] ourselves ready or do that. And our expansion, we know any expansion but we are already experienced. So we'll take around 6 to 8 months' time only.

Correct. So currently, we are focusing more on the oxygen cylinder and the CNG Cascades?

Basically, CNG, oxygen and development of hydrogen [indiscernible].

Correct. I understood. And sir, just I wanted to understand, I mean, our capacity utilization is almost, I think, optimum level at 85%, 90%, right? And you are still talking about maybe about 15% growth for this year. So what will drive [indiscernible] valuated product?

I'm talking across the product growth is around 15% to 17%. You will see, I have mentioned in just recently the one [indiscernible] asked me the questions. Marketing business, we are estimate growth of 12%. The composite product growth, we're estimating over 30%. And that is going to be continued because next year, composite production, composite product expansion will also be completed. So overall growth, we are talking around 15% to 17% [indiscernible] composite products, which have a value [indiscernible], which has margins are also reasonable and good. So that will continue. And that will give the movement in the ROCE, working the cycle time across the benefit we get to reach our target of the ROCE.

19% over 3 years?

Yes.

And among the growth, our value-added products can grow higher, right? I mean...

Of course, of course. No doubt.

Okay. Okay. I understood. And my last question is on seasonality. Do we have any kind of seasonality in our business?

I don't think so. Except the liquified business, which is in the normally 1 or 2 months, but that also now you know that India, the rainy season is also very different. Now you will find in the current season also in Rajasthan, no rains are there in how things are there, in Western part in [indiscernible]. I think is not affected. And finally, I can say [indiscernible] on the product side seasonal, nothing is in seasonal business.

Yes, sir. Sir, the current participant has left the queue, we will move on to the next question, which is from the line of Madhur Rathi from Counter Cyclical Investment.

Sir, what kind of IRR or ROCE do we expect before leasing new investments? Because when you say that 19% ROCE in the next 3 years, I want to understand what is your capacity utilization in value-added products? And all the new [indiscernible] doing value-added hydrogen, oxygen? [indiscernible]

I tell you, the IRR, which is 19% projected for next 3 years is based on the current product which are in hand. And considerable growth potential, which is in the existence and which is visibility is there. We are not considering a hydrogen [indiscernible] in this ROCE because we have not considered any kind of upgrade investment also from that. In the present 3-year projections, we are considering business will grow over 15%. However, the CapEx plan in the next 3 years also will be around INR 200 crores, which is inclusive of the maintenance CapEx, automation, machinery and to maintain the capacity and capture the growth. So that will be different for us for the next 3 years, I can say, INR 600 crores CapEx expansion [indiscernible] to get that growth opportunity over 15% and to achieve ROCE of 19% because certain ROCE improvement we get from the improvement in our working capital cycle time also.

Okay. And sir, what is the capacity utilization in the composite [indiscernible]?

I mentioned, I think, last time also, capacity -- capacity utilization in the composite products, we have 2 LPG and CNG. Last week, almost around 85% to 90%. Therefore, I had mentioned to you, we are not launching over cylinder is automotive currently because we have a healthy order book for the CNG Cascades supplier, CNG Cascades applications, so we are continuously focusing on that.

And sir, what will be our turnaround time for sales from the time you receive our order book?

Pardon me?

So how fast can you produce our products from the time you achieve orders?

I'll tell you, normally, these kinds of orders like Cascades orders, normally person give us the schedule. They give us the order. They give schedules as well their requirement on month. We have a quite I can say the supplier base have been [indiscernible] for CNG Cascade applications. As we have experienced this product is just I can say '22, '23 and half of the year was there, almost 2 years back, the CNG Cascades has been launched. So user base is increasing, and every user start giving us the time for execution of 6 to 8 months' time. The spot orders also come that we attribute because we have capacity available. And our other customers accommodate in that [indiscernible]. While I mentioned the utilization, 85% to 90%. Yes, order utilization time, customers always give us some time because as we meet the orders, parallelly, they give us also order for the new vehicles on which they would like to call their Cascades.

Okay. How fast can we ramp up our capacity utilization?

I tell you as customer experience, you know very well. Once time always takes time. Any capacity expansion, certainly whatever is we can do it. Normally, it is 6 to 8 months' time.

Okay. And sir, just a final question. So what kind of improvement are you [indiscernible] on the working capital side that cause increase in ROCE?

I tell you working capital days, we are expecting 5 to 7 days on the yearly basis, but it will move in the range of 85 to 90 days. I'm keeping the mine target for the working [indiscernible] time, which is currently in the range of around 105 days. So I'm keeping the target for improvement by 67 days on a yearly basis.

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Vikram Suryavanshi for closing comments. Over to you, Mr. Suryavanshi.

We thank the management of Time Technoplast Limited for giving us an opportunity to host the call and taking time out for interaction with the stakeholders. Thank you all for being on the call.

Thank you very much to all my valued [indiscernible], valued participants, [indiscernible] especially. And thank you once again.

Thank you, members of the management. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of PhillipCapital India Private Limited, that concludes this conference. We thank you for joining us, and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.