Trifork Group AG (TRIFOR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Yes, good morning. This is Dan Dysli. Welcome to the first quarter '22 results presentation of Trifork. Happy to have you here today. Speaking today, as usual, will be Jorn Larsen, our CEO, and Kristen Wolf Anderson as our CFO. So this will be a short presentation. I would say 20 minutes, 20 to 30 minutes max. If you have any questions, you can raise your hand on your computer during the presentation or after and we'll respect your question and we will invite you to talk. The webcast is being recorded and will be presented on our website later on with the other documents of the results. Kristian, if you want to move on quickly to the disclaimer. Yes, please have a look at the disclaimer quickly. And then I would suggest Jorn to take over from here. Jorn, it's yours.

Thank you then. And good morning, everyone. My name is Jorn Larsen, I'm the CEO of Trifork and the co-founder. With me, I have Kristian here today and we are going to present you our Q1 numbers and results and highlights, and let's just dive into it. Main events for the quarter is we have selected 4 bullets for you. So now we can say that we are actively planning to go back into a physical world where we have 5 go-to conferences in the making over the next course of a year. And this is with big pleasure we can announce this, it's not going to be totally the same as before all, because we like to have these conferences more as events where we record high-quality content and then broadcast it on our YouTube channel. And our You Tube channel has in this quarter continued to grow and we are now close to 32 million views, and we are quite proud of that. It's one of our -- It's one of the biggest tech channels in the world. And the intent to double down on the growth of the channel, it ensures that we are on the right track on suggesting the right technologies for our customers. Indeed we have had a good growth in, organic good growth and some very interesting developments, I would say. We just want to highlight one here, and that is that we signed a letter of intent with a Swiss healthcare customer and we hope very soon to announce to the market exactly the outcome of these negotiations that we are doing right now. Also, in the Danes market, we are piloting a new app that has actually been underway for 25 years. And that sounds like a long time and it shows the dedication and the determination that Trifork has when we set out a vision for our customers, and in this case, it's the Danish health government agency. And many, many years ago we suggest them to turn this whole experience of being pregnant couple into a digital experience and now finally it's being tested, but we will talk a little bit more about it later. In Run, we also have full speed ahead and we can report that we have taken a nice step forward in cyber protection, but I'll get back to that. And we sold some new licenses. We became a partner with a new tech software company as well. We have some updates in labs, but more about this later. So here you can see again the growth we have had since 2007 on revenue and every year with the profit. And now for the '22, we are one quarter in and you can see our guidance to the very right of this picture and we are continuing this nice growth curve. So let's look on the details. First of all, there are a few things that are interesting here. So for the first time, we broke the 1,000 employees mark, and this is despite our deconsolidation of Dawn late last year. We already mentioned the continuous growth. So you see the orange bar is actually one of the highest growth in one quarter on our You Tube channel. And this is particularly positive because now people are going back more to the physical world, physical conferences has started. So I'm very happy to see that the digital experience is continuing its growth. We are up to 60 business units now, maintaining 25 active lab companies, and in the middle we have the numbers. So for Q1, we've realized EUR 45.8 million with year-over-year revenue growths of 16.3%. We have a few comments on that that Kristian will make later in this call. Our triple segment adjusted EBITDA of 8.1 resulting in a margin of 17.6. The Trifork Group EBIT of 4.7 resulting in a margin of 10.3 and then our net liquidity 8.8 million. Still we have a strong appetite despite our investments in Q1 to grow further also with M &A. You can see on the very left side how we have been growing compared to last year, so a healthy growth, 16.3%. And if we regulate, and you can say compensate for the deconsolidation of Dawn last year, we actually, we'll see a 17.8 organic growth, which is we are quite proud to present. And there you see on the 2021, you see how we are stacking up. Still only one quarter in, but things look positive in this moment. Okay, let's move on. A few updates on our strategy house. So our foundation perfecting the Trifork way, you can say maintaining more and more business units in a high growth mode. An important thing for me to mention is that we are now more active than ever in running and executing workshops in our leader teams. The way we do this is that we group 5 to 10 leaders from the 60 business units and they are divided it into a number of classes. And 7 is the number right now, but that number will grow over time. And these classes, these workshops are there for the business unit. It leads to inspire each other and drive each other forward, and I think it's something that gives me a lot of joy and having this facilitate these workshops. We added another country to the list of countries where we're active in, Portugal. So we opened a new office in Lisbon and in the future of protocols you know I will tell you how it's going in this new market for us. Let's move on because we have embedded some updates on the other strategic pillars later in this presentation. So as you recall, the Trifork Group is we report in 2 different segments, Trifork segment, and the Trifork lab segment. So as mentioned before, 60 business units across 12 countries, these are all numbers we consolidate on revenue and EBITDA. Trifork labs, 25 active lab investments, where we have minority stakes in those companies. Let's move on. So for the Trifork segment, our go-to-market model is Inspire, Build, Run. And so I mentioned earlier in the call, we really look forward to executing these physical conferences again and to double down on the production of content that we then can broadcast to our channel. In build, you see that we have 76% of our total revenue in build, and in run, 22.6. And that's actually a jump up from previous, but Kristian will have some comments on exactly what happened in the run this quarter. Let's move on. So as I mentioned in the first minute of this call, one of the interesting case stories we are bringing here today is the national pregnancy app, both the app and the front end. So this was organized in a way that we were suggesting the government over a period of 20 years to make a tender where the Danish population could take advantage of new technology. And when we suggested this originally, it would be something that would be live on a website and you would sit home, and then you could see the ultrasound pictures and all the data and following your child's growth. So now, all these years later, it actually turned out that it's an app. And then it's also a website for the midwives, the nurses, and the doctors who are involved in delivering a baby to the world. So this is the new generation, this is talent that we like to hire in 20 or 25 years, that we now monitor here in apps. If you go to the next page, so here we have a testimonial, and here you can see Bachmann. So she is one of the leading people in the Danish Health Authority and there's a quote from her. So this is luckily typical when we ask our customers how it is to work with us because we work in an integrated way with our customer. We are one team with our customers, and together we deliver these great results. And I'm very happy that we are able here to present a quote from our customer. Let's move on. So here's just the overview. As you know, at Trifork we have 6 business areas, 3 verticals, 3 horizontals. Let's look a little bit closer at them. Okay, so a few changes here. FinTech is maintaining high growth. If we compare with Q1 '21 to Q1 '22, you will see a 23.4% growth. And this is actually a very healthy growth and this very close to what we are targeting every business unit to grow months over months or compared with quarter and quarter. So this, just around 25%, is you can say in our DNA as Trifork to grow. And of course, not everything is according to plan. So here you see that it's just below the 25%. Digital health, you know for the first time in history of Trifork we have been able to actually suggest and pitch our know-how that we have 20 years of experience in Denmark. And the Swiss potential customers have been very interested in our technology. And this is a breakthrough because exporting know-how and doing it across countries is a huge challenge. So we consider this a breakthrough. And I already mentioned in the new pregnancy app, actually an app that also the Swiss customer is very interested in. And now we also completed the deconsolidation of Dawn, the deconsolidation does not mean that we leave Dawn behind. Now, Dawn Health is a part of our lab community. And the plan is that they will use some of the money they raised [ between the ] round that we executed earlier to accelerate growth. So it's going to be very exciting for Trifork to follow Dawn Health out into the bigger world. Also, smart building continues to grow. You know here is where we develop smart technologies, but we also develop know-how and how to build in a new way. And our aim is to challenge the established building industry. And so it's also very positive to see that this also becomes a bigger part of our total revenue. Let's move into the assumptions. So smart enterprise you know, 2 things. We digitalize governments, it's one part of smart enterprise. The other part of smart enterprise is this partnership with Apple and SAP where we bring the best breeds of mobile apps to the front liners. To everyone in a company and not just for the people who sit in the back office and use package, systems like SAP or warehouse systems. We have a case story about this in this column as well. Cyber protection as you can see here, a gross are 78.2% which is a dramatic growth. Here we also made a lab investment. We see some very positive developments with large license sales, a new partner, and also a new lab company coming in this quarter. This results in a fairly large growth but we believe we have created a platform for continuing a high growth in the market. Cloud operation, our steady trend growing 12% over the last years' quarter. Here we have also invested in the future. So we have built a new operations center from ground up. It was opened for operation just very recently, and this will create a platform for the next year's growth and private cloud offerings. Of course, we are also continuing our focus on public cloud and together this will result in us being able to offer what we call hybrid cloud solutions to our customers. Let's move on. Here's an overview, and I invite you to go on our homepage and study some of these [Technical Difficulty]. We already mentioned the pregnancy app. Last call not very long ago we were talking about the warehouse hero where we are taking, for the first time, our digital solutions to new type of users for Vestas. This system we are called Warehouse Hero and we actually realized an optimization gain of 40% implementing these smart solutions to warehouses for the wind turbine manufacturer business. Let's move on. I promised you an update also on lapse. This is what happened in just one quarter. We established a new company, ComplyTeq. It's a company that is going to make it a lot easier for us when we are onboard to insurance company, to a bank, and to a lot of other companies that are being continuously more regulated. And sometimes that results in quite unfriendly user interfaces towards our customers and very cumbersome processes where we have to show the passport and talk to a robot. Compliance has some interesting technologies, and in a future call we can look closer to this as well. We established Trifork smart building 3. So the second of our own you can say, engineered buildings. There was a financing round in [ drug ] finalized so where we invited in a new external investor, very positive. The same thing goes for ExSeed and for Arkyn, where we raised EUR 3.8 million for Arkyn studios. Arkyn studios belong in our business area, smart enterprise, and we are already delivering joint projects between Arkyn and the Trifork business units. So this is where we are deploying software as a service together with Trifork's implementation services. And this is very quick for a startup to actually reach production of their software. Feeds, are a very interesting investment we made this year as well. So if you have seen a movie and you stay around for the last minutes of the movie, you will see all these rolling text, and people are being featured and honored for the work they have done for this movie. So Feeds, they want to do the same for all work in the world, and a lot of the work that is taking place in the world is software development and there are a lot of hidden heroes. There are a lot of people who are not being recognized for the work and is actually a very important motivational factor for someone delivering such a thing like the pregnancy app. So Feeds will be a platform there. Promon, our investment into cyber. Let's move on. On our ESD update, with our general assembly meeting, we actually reach a level of 50% non-male members of our board. We are also proud to see that the 27% of our leaders at Trifork show the one who are propelling Trifork ahead and leading the 60 business units, 27% of them are also non-male leaders. And so we are continuing this diverse culture with-- And just broke the 1000 employee mark that I just mentioned before. And they are coming from more than 25 countries. So that's some of the highlights I chose to bring to you today. So I'd like to hand the work over to Kristian.

Yes. So now I'll go a little more into details in the financial performance for the first quarter of 2022 for the Trifork Group performance. Jorn already talked into a lot of the numbers and here you see the 17.8% organic growth when taking deconsolidation effects from Dawn Health, the 1.3 million in Q1 2021 into account. Also to mention here is that 65% of revenue has been from the private sector and 35% from the public sector. This is a little higher in the public sector compared to the full year of 2021. The strong organic growth is supported, as Jorn mentioned, by cyber protection especially and then also FinTech in the UK. And if taking the deconsolidation of Dawn Health into account, then actually also an organic growth, a nice organic growth from the digital health business area. The inorganic growth part, the EUR 0.9 million you see here is coming from the 2021 acquisitions of the Erlang and Strong Minds. Going into the Trifork group performance and we are guiding on EBIT, so this is why we focus on EBIT here in the presentation. What you see here is an EBIT increase of 87% compared to Q1 2021. That said, you also need to look into the adjusted EBIT since in Q1 2021 we had EUR 1.8 million of IPO-related costs. So this is what it's adjusted for. It's only in Q1 2022 we realized a 10.3% EBIT margin. Looking at the Trifork segment then, our operational segment, then regarding on the adjusted EBITDA as you see here on the right, there you see an increase from EUR 7.7 million to EUR 8.1 million, which is 5.1% increase. You also see a decrease in the margin for this quarter compared to the first part of 2021. I'll come back to that part to explaining that. Trifork segment performance on EBIT here as well, you see an increase on EBIT of 64%. So realizing 5.1 million in Q1 2022 equal to a margin of 11%. The Trifork segment performance going into a different sub-segments will then explain the development in the margins. Here you see, in the left-hand side, you see how the distribution of revenue was in between different subsegments for the full year 2021 and now compared to the first quarter of 2022. This is also what Jorn showed you in our Inspire, Build, Run model that we now have 22.6% of run-based business and 76.1% in the build-based business. The margins, looking into the margins of adjusted EBITDA, we have a strong margin in the build-based segment of 23.4%. And you see a lower margin, 12.1% in the run-based business where we normally would see a higher margin than in the build-based business. The reason for the low margin here in the first quarter of 2021 has been primarily due to non-capitalized investments and building out new operation centers and making optimal performance in those operations centers. We're still for the green part of 2020 have a plan of investing additional EUR 1 million to EUR 1.5 million in those in operation centers, and this is included in our guidance. Looking into the built subsegment performance, what you see here is an organic growth of 15.9% compared to the first quarter of 2021. Once again taking deconsolidation of 1.3 million out in relation to Q1 2021. On the adjusted EBITDA margin, you see this is 23.4% which was an increase compared to last year but still a lower margin. The run sub-segment performance here, you see that all growth was organic. So 22.2% very strong organic growth. A large part of the growth also came from cyber protection as Jorn mentioned in the beginning of the presentation. And also we in this court had a high revenue of a third party license sale of EUR 1.7 billion, so that's also part of the increase. But then again comparing to the first quarter of 2021, at that quarter we reported very high auto sale. So compared to that, it's still a very strong organic growth, even if we had EUR 1.7 million in license sale. Or we saw a decrease in the margin. Family cost by these investments I talked about before of EUR 0.6 million. And also because of the low margin on the license sale. All over here see how the run sub-segment revenues split has been developing over the past period since the first quarter of 2020. What I would like you to look into here is that you see the seasonality of hardware and also on licenses. The license report is higher than on the hosting and security. This is why we see this as a solid development, that now hosting and security is covering just about 70% of all revenue in the run-based sub-segment. This is also a development that we expect to continue. That we will see the highest growth there and the more stable growth since it's primarily based on long time contracts in this area. Then looking into the lab segment performance then we see that in Q1 2022 we had an EBIT of 1.2 million. That comes from a combination of an EBITDA minus 300,000 and a plus on our fair value adjustments of investments of EUR 1.5 million. On the right-hand side, you also see that cash, cost, and active investments has increased to 38.8 million. This has primarily been due to the completion of the investment in Promon, which was by far the largest investment that we had in Q1 but also the investment in fees and additional investment in Arkyn Studios where we defended our ownership ratio and also smaller investment in Drip and also the founding of ComplyTeq. All this combined together was just about EUR 8 million as you see in the development here in the cash invested. And then EUR 1.3 million increase in valuation of unrealized gains. Looking into cashflow and financial position, then we saw a continuing strong positive cashflow of 4.6 million in the quarter from the operations. In the investing activities, we already talked about these new investments in labs but we also decreased the NCIs. In the quarter we have acquired NCIs from especially one of our companies where we have minorities, ESL and we will continue to do that throughout the year. Then we see that we have at least payments of EUR 1.2 million paid and increased performs of 1 million in total. Overall, we have a net position end of the quarter of 8.8 million in the net cash. Meaning that we still have a negative leverage ratio of net to EBITDA. As Jorn stated in beginning, we still have an appetite for new investments and see that we have a strong position to continue investments in the future. Overall, we still have our guidance from the beginning of the year, which is unchanged. So that we still guide on a total revenue of EUR 175 million to EUR 180 million and the Trifork segment adjusted EBITDA of EUR 29.5 million to EUR 30 million. And the Trifork Group EBIT of EUR 15.5 million to EUR 18 million. So now Jorn I'll hand over to you again. Here, a short update of where we are.

Yes. Thank you so much, Kristian, for taking us through the numbers and a the very much detailed way compared to the other quarters we've had. So more insight into run. So thank you so much for listening today. We are open for questions and we are, of course, also open to meet you, investors, out there in the real world and online. So thank you so much.

Thank you very much. We've seen questions coming in here. The first one is from Poul. And Poul, please go ahead.

Yes. Can you hear me?

Yes, that works well.

Okay. Thank you for taking the call and I think it was quite a good start you had to the year and there's the question, number one as well. Because as you had 18% organic growth and you maintained 10% to 15% for the full year, I was just wondering, could you elaborate a little on, is that because you're cautious due to global environment? Or do you see headwind or challenges ahead? Or what's the reason for having a guidance all the way down to 10% growth after this start?

Yes, I can answer that. Of course, you do see in the current environment, a lot of moving targets out there. It is a very special environment. We just came out of COVID and then now we have the situation Ukraine versus Russia and the impact that will have. So I would say that we are still cautious in relation to that on exactly how it will impact. We don't have any direct impact in our business yet but of course, we do see shortage in some deliveries, which potentially also could impact us in the future. And also we see other companies having issues, or starting to getting issues in relation to their production if they cannot get gas or things like that. Which once again could affect us in relation to future revenue.

Yes, thank you for the question. I just want to put a little more color to it. So you know, delivering software is, of course, something we can do on our own terms but of course, our customers need to have a healthy business environment going for them. And directly, you know, we are measuring this ourselves. So, for instance, proponents for smart buildings are you know in a shortage, and the delivery times are you know 10 times longer than usual. So there's certainly a lot in the world that's not functioning very well and so we are starting to see this also in our business. And but also, as you indicate yourself, we are a little cautious to see, are we able to deliver on next quarter, the next quarter again? And also, you know we have this outstanding letter of intent with a Swiss customer. So also, when we can hopefully announce that we conclude this, and we will know the effect, then we will see. Thank you for the question.

That takes me to the second question when you mentioned the Swiss potential customer. You apparently cannot say much, but in the report you say a new player to the Swiss market. I was just wondering, is this a startup or is it somebody coming international into Switzerland or? I was just wondering how large this decline.

Yes. I mean, I really wish I could share but we would rather wait until we can make a proper announcement on exactly what this is all about. And because also the customer is really focused on you can say, being on top of the communication, because this is-- Well, we just like to show it when we have it. But as I mentioned, it is a breakthrough just that another country has the interest in our technologies. And this is really the message I can bring across. And you know hopefully, if one country can see the benefit of the technologies we've been developing for more than 20 years, then we hope there will be others as well.

Okay. Then I have a question that might be more on the math side. But a number of employees showdown in the quarter by 9 on average, I guess that's the deconsolidation of the Dawn Health, meaning that you end up at 927 for the quarter, but you're in the quarter above 1,000. Meaning that you must have had this high level of hirings at the end of the quarter. Is that in the build or run or where should we see that add-on resources?

[ Overall, as distributed overall ], or you can say we also added additional in our administration or in compliance. So it is an overall increase in all the units. As we're talking about earlier presentations in cyber protection, it's an area where we are looking extremely to get additional new employees, and this is an area where we're investing in.

And that then into my last question is about the investments that you've done, the EUR 8 million. You spoke about it the last time and you've mentioned it today, and I think Promon, that must be the biggest part of this. So could you put a little more on how big is Promon actually? I haven't been able to find any kind of numbers on FTEs or revenues. But if it's valued at around EUR 100 million with you having 5%, so then you must see huge opportunities in the company since you take such a large ticket.

Yes. And as you know, it's actually you know, it's a joint investment with our previous large investor GRO Capital. And so, first of all, we are happy that we continue the collaboration even after GRO has exited the Trifork as an investor and I think that's unique that you maintain such a relationship. And so together, we are looking at investments, and one was Promon. And you're right, it is a valuation of around 100 million. I'm sure that there are some numbers publicly available on the profit at least have Promon in the market, but it is you know-- We've also announced an enhanced partnership with CrowdStrike. So with the environment, we have on all this cyber threat being more in focus, yes, we do see a high potential in Promon. And we have over the past of many years, developed a lot of apps. And apps are becoming more and more mission-critical, and an interface towards hackers is actually the app itself. So the front end, the app that you see here, people are holding in their hands. So through that you can be attacked and Promon is, in our opinion, the leader in defending apps against cyber attacks. And if you look in the app stores, there are millions of apps that are not protected by a similar technology. So the potential here is high. So that's just to put a little more color on what we see. How much Trifork itself is able to harvest from this by being a reseller? We will yet have to see that.

Okay. Thank you very much for my time.

Thank you, Poul. Do we have any other questions?

Yes. Here.

We have Serge Rotzer. Please Serge, go ahead. [Technical Difficulty] There seems to be a problem unmuting. Let's go ahead with…

Yes. Can you hear me now?

Okay, yes. So this is Serge, okay. Serge, please go ahead.

Excuse me, I had to dial in with the iPhone and I was not seeing this popping up the window, popup window. Okay, again, already last year you achieved, or your best quarter has been the Q1 related to adjusted EBITDA Trifork segments with 7.7 million. Again, this year you started with 8.1 million. So this implies basically an EBITDA on average for the rest of the year between 7.1 million to 8 million. So no improvement over Q1. Do I read this correctly or do you see a certain seasonality, especially given the investments you make into the run business or is this spread over the whole year?

I would say, as I stated earlier then we do see investments in the right base segment, especially in our operation centers. And we also expect to invest an additional 1 million to 1.5 million in the rest of the year, but that is included in the guidance that we have been given. So you say seasonality, yes. There would be some in relation to our Inspire-based business where when introducing the in-person conferences again, we expect to see a better profit ratio in the Inspire-based business as well.

Okay. So there should be upside on the current analysis, correct?

Depending of course on how the world is developing, but yes in the run based business especially, also in the remaining part of the year.

Okay. Second question, can you remind us about the structure of your contract you know? If I would expect that to be will get awarded by the new contract of this software company, whatever it is, what's about the revenue recognition and EBITDA recognition and provisions you're building up if you have a new contract? Because I feel that even if you were to win this contract let's say by the end of this quarter, it's difficult to have substantial impact on revenues. Or especially also on EBITDA because you also have to make provisions. Is this true or? So even if you win a contract, it will have no impact this year regardless. This is what I want to say.

Well, that's a statement. But my statement would be that when and if we win the contract, then it will be just like normal for us. A lot of the contract would most likely be based on time and material services, specific solutions that we've developed. But also in this case, where we have the opportunity to potentially bring products that we have already developed in one country to another country, then we can see a mix in between product sales, and also time and material based services.

Can you help me? This project, would it be a new project or is it a repackaging of an existing project you already sold to somebody else?

It will be a combination. So, if this is being realized, then there will be a combination as I said, of product sales, IP sale, and all the time and material in relation to billing specific components, implementing into infrastructure, et cetera, kind of like that.

Okay. Then probably the last one for Lars, I've heard that he's keen to invest again into non-organic growth. So I'm wondering now with the multiples we've seen, which are much lower now given the current market we have if it's changed the environment. Do you see in your industry also lower multiples, which are asking for or it's still the same like at the beginning of the year?

No. I mean, that's a very fair question. So last year, we saw you know the tech industry was quite overheated in valuations, and it was probably a good year not to be so active, which we weren't. And now, we are always in a number of conversations, you never know where they will lead to. But yes, I do see that the market for acquisitions is fair now as opposed to when it was really high at some point last year. So that's a fair remark. And so yes, we do have a lot of appetite on M&A. We have also learned a lot about what kind of businesses we should attract. So we are also cautious on which companies and units to bring into the group. But yes, it's part of our daily work to talk to entrepreneurs and to small business owners about M&A.

So is very helpful and interesting. Could you give us some color which is attractive now what has changed? What is attractive now? What was not attractive the last year? So based on your market, your horizontal, verticals, and probably also the countries.

Yes, you can say that when you expand to a new territory, whether it's a new area in a country we're already present, there are several things that are important in this you can say, synergy between the object we want to acquire and Trifork. As Trifork grows, we do see an effect of the stronger brand and a lot of credibility, and a long track record. And here on this screen you see some of these really interesting stuff we’re delivering. And so these synergy effects actually growth over time, but it is across our 6 business areas. So we are looking in all 6 business areas to grow inorganic. I hope that answers the question.

Okay. And probably the last one is, I know I always said it also, but do you see industry which are stopping to invest into given the environment we have. That they start to reduce their CAPEX or also their OPEX you know? I would say especially in the capital goods environment that they protect the cash flow and stop projects they're running, it's threefold. Or it's difficult to win new projects in some industries.

We don't yet see any big changes and you have to consider that that investment into IT and tech can be used for true reasons, to expand your market, and yes, you can imagine that some companies are more cautious. But we have proven again and again, and especially in our smart enterprise area, that when we deliver software to our customers they actually benefit from substantial savings. I just mentioned this with the Warehouse Hero, that it was and optimization gain of 40%. So now is the time where companies should really invest to make sure that they are you can say, protected and optimizing the way they operate. The world however does not always work in that logical way but at least a lot of companies, do. So tech is a revenue driver but tech can also be an optimization tool. Then it's also defense. You see our high growth in cyber protection that of course, comes out of fear and concern. And with reason, because the level of attack in the world on cyber has never been higher. It is invisible but it is as you can say, destructive as what we see in the physical world.

Just looking at further questions, there's nobody right now. So last chance to ask a question. If somebody would like to, please raise your hand on the screen. We don't see any further questions. I would pass it on to Jorn for some closing remarks.

Thank you so much Dan. Thank you so much all for listening in, and thank you for the great questions. And we are looking forward to be back with news and also to update you for the next quarter upcoming soon. Thank you so much and have a great day.