TTM Technologies, Inc. (TTMI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. I think we're going to get started. I'll wait for the clock. So I think that might be an indication of the webcast, it's working. Okay, great. We'll get started. Congratulations to everybody in the room. You made it to the last session of -- I don't know what year this is, our conference down here -- but some number of years. This is the X annual Citi industrial conference in Miami. My name is Jason Gursky, I'm Citi's aerospace and defense analyst. I have the pleasure today to welcome TTM Technologies to the stage. We have Dan Boehle, the CFO of the company. It's going to be an interesting one because back many moons ago, I was a tech hardware analyst and I actually covered TTM in a prior life. And now the company has come full circle back into my life as a company that is a bit more focused on what I do for my day job, which is aerospace and defense. So Dan has got some prepared remarks and some slides that I think he wants to go through that I think will help set the stage for all of us, with a description about what the company does from a product perspective, some of the end markets that they are exposed to, and then I'll pick it up with some questions. And at some point, we'll open it up to the brave souls in the audience to see if we have any questions.

Absolutely. Appreciate that. Thank you, Jason, and thank you all for coming. I appreciate being here at the conference. I think may be our first time here. So I'll give you a bit of a quick overview on some of our slides. First, to our legal disclaimers. You can read those at your convenience. Getting into the company. We are a technology-enabled critical supplier to today's fastest-growing technologies such as advanced defense radar, cloud infrastructure, AI data centers. So you can see kind of our 5 end markets on the right side there, data center and semiconductor computing; networking end market. Our aerospace and defense market, as you mentioned, is one of our growing areas and our strategic focus; semiconductor capital equipment and medical industrial automation; as well as automotive technology. We're about a $2.4 billion company in revenues. We have a significant global footprint with 23 facilities worldwide, about 18 of those in North America, 6 of those outside, 5 of them in China, 1 of them in Malaysia and about 18,000 employees across the globe. We've grown throughout the years, primarily through acquisition. We acquired -- we started as a PCB company, did an IPO in 2000-ish, started growing through acquiring PCB companies. And then we started strategically, probably about 10 years ago, wanting to get above the board, building into our assembly and subsystems and full mission systems above the board and then also entering more stable marketplaces like aerospace and defense. So through acquisitions, we've gotten more exposure to both of those. But then through divestitures, getting out of the more cyclical markets like mobility, E-MS, backplane manufacturing. So that brought us to where we are today, a more stable growth trajectory, less seasonality and cyclicality within our markets. We're mostly out of consumer markets, even on the commercial side of our business. We say we're about 50% commercial, 50% aerospace and defense. Aerospace and defense is mostly defense, 90% defense, so very small commercial aero. And then on the aerospace and defense side, we've been climbing from a PCB into the integrated electronics. Wanting to be involved more in the design, early on in design with our customers, becoming more sticky and designed into their products, longer life cycle products. And again, we also offer a footprint diversification. So something we could talk more about. So our 3-tiered strategic focus, as I mentioned, diversification, diverse end markets, the near-term focus is aerospace and defense, also a lot of growth in data center computing with the generative AI boom. These are the 5 markets: aerospace and defense, about 46%, almost 50% of our marketplace; automotive, about 13%. Expected growth in that area is low over the next year, but aerospace and defense and data center computing, we expect to be above kind of those third-party benchmarking that you see here. So those are our 2 growth drivers, data centers about 21% percent of our business right now. And then the last 2, medical, industrial and instrumentation, mid-teens, quite a broad group of customers in that area, kind of mixed cyclicality there. And then networking is starting to grow, along with the data center computing, being pulled along with generative AI. Just a little bit of focus on aerospace and defense, Q4 book-to-bill about 1.14. We've got program backlog of about $1.5 billion. We are aligned with key defense programs and you can see there, 90% of the business, as I mentioned, is defense, primarily radar focused, and then we have some exposure to commercial space and commercial aero. Chart on the right shows you that more than 50% of that business is now above the PCB. It's integrated electronics, microelectronics, RF components and then some full mission systems that we acquired through our last Telephonics acquisition. Differentiation. We differentiate through engineering depth, being engaged early with our customers, having a breadth of technology and a global footprint. So this picture just kind of shows you that we are engaged across multiple different engineered products as well as our base, which is the PCB, right? So in aerospace and defense, we go across all those products. Commercial is more towards the lower end. This gives you our global footprint. As I mentioned, 17 sites now in North America, 6 in Asia. And then finally, third tier is just the financial discipline, right? So operational execution in our factories, building and improving our earnings power and expanding our operating margin, getting good cash flow generation, which allows us to continue to invest in our company. These are our long-term targets, 4% to 6% top line growth over long term. We're driving towards 11% to 13% non-GAAP operating margin. We finished 2024 about 9.6%. Again, Penang is about 170 basis points drag on that. So you add that back, we're pretty much in that target. And that would get us to EBITDA margins of 15% to 17%. Our CapEx is a little bit high right now because we have been investing in facilities. So a little bit above that long-term target, but 4% to 5% is our normal range and we try to generate cash flows of 10% or more of revenue, which would drive 13% to 15% of return on invested capital. I think I've talked through most of this, but our focus is on investing in markets with growth and favorable trends, generative AI, aerospace and defense, good, strong growth without cyclicality, not consumer markets, more higher-end complex boards and integrated electronics and then a solid manufacturing -- or solid financial management of the company.

Okay. Great. I think I want to immediately skate towards just a couple of follow-up questions. I kind of wrote down as you were going through the presentation. I noticed that the growth rate for the auto segment is projected to be lower than what you were forecasting for the 5-year period. So is that customer mix you've got going on there or product, more exposure to EVs that are decelerating?

Well, that's probably absolutely it, right? So the market in EV, I think really the only area growing significantly is EV, but that's not growing within U.S. and Europe, which is where our customers are. The Chinese market is where the growth is. They use their own supply chain. So we can't -- so we don't sell into that market. So our customers are the Tier 1s within the U.S. and Europe. EV has not really taken off there. We have more content on EV than we do on internal combustion engine cars. And so that's why our forecast is a little bit down there. Frankly, we probably think that, that forecast is a little optimistic.

Okay.

That third-party forecast.

The third-party forecast. Okay. What exactly -- where would we find your content in an EV?

Mostly through EV, anything that's sensor-related and ADAS. And so ADAS, the defense system, safety systems, right? Driver -- I can't remember what the acronym stands for, right, but the defense systems in your car that keeps you from crashing. So we're in those sensors, and as well as any other -- we're not in really the infotainment, but sensing PCBs, right? PCBs that drive the electronics that do sensing within your car.

Right.

And so there's more ADAS in even internal combustion cars now. So that does provide opportunity for us outside of EV, but the EV cars have much more sensors, the cameras and things that are sensing everything. So we get double if -- we probably have twice as much content on EV.

Right. Okay. Good. This is an easy finance question, but everybody seems to have a different definition of ROIC. How do you guys define it?

Yes. So it is return on our invested capital, just basically, it's a simple calculation, right, of our operating margin over our average total assets.

Yes, it's been remarkable to watch that definition like morph in over the -- do backflips over the years. So I just was kind of curious. Okay. And then on the defense side of things, you mentioned radars. I can think of quite a few companies that are involved in radars. But do you have any -- and I know you put Raytheon up there as one of the key logos at the beginning. Just kind of curious, of that 46% of revenue, 48% of revenue, customer concentration, how much do you -- yes, so I guess there's program concentration and then there's customer concentration, right? And customer concentration could be across multiple programs. So I'm just kind of maybe a mix of both.

Yes. So there's only 1 customer that, in aerospace and defense, that's above 10% of sales. So we have broad diversification across customers and platforms. And so we have about, we're on about 200 programs plus, with none of those programs representing more than 6% of overall revenue on a program basis, except 1 customer that represents more than 10%.

The one that's on the logo, I'm guessing.

Yes.

Got it.

And then probably the top 20 programs representing less than 50% of our revenues in that area. So we are broadly diversified. I would say from content, we're more on radar systems than others. And then we also do some communication systems, guidance systems. Some of the main platforms we're on, F-35 and F-16 from an aircraft platform; the MH-60 helicopter. And then on sea-based, SPY-6, SPY-7, as well as land-based, LTAMDS radar. And also then on guidance systems, we do Javelin and AMRAAM. So some large platforms, a decades-long business that we've been on, good customer relationships.

Right. I can't help but smile a little bit to listening to somebody from TTM throw out A&D acronyms. I'm hearing -- I'm just not...

Yes.

And it was with [ Cisco ] [indiscernible].

I can speak more towards those and I can't tell you what ADAS meant on the cars, all right.

Okay. Good. So let's see here. Tell us a little bit how -- you mentioned that the company, this diversification strategy, you purposefully went after the aerospace and defense market. As an aerospace and defense analyst, I think I appreciate why you did that. But maybe talk a little bit more about the strategic rationale for doing that first. And then secondly, tell us a little bit how you did it? Was it organically, through acquisition? Just kind of curious.

Yes. So I'm newer to this message as well, but it's part of the reason why I'm here, right? So I want to speak to that. I have an A&D background for 22 years. So the company went through that, I think, intentionally to, again, diversify its products, to raise above the board into more integrated electronics, bring more value-add to our customer. And we can do the PCB, but we can also do microelectronics, electronics all the way through full mission systems, right? So we're developing -- part of the Telephonics acquisition was they're developing an AESA radar, a full mission system. And so we did it through, mostly through acquisition to growth. Right? So we bought Anaren in 2018. That brought some of the assembly and subsystems in above-the-board and integration engineering know-how. And then the Telephonics brought us into communication systems, IFF systems and then full mission system radar. So that's kind of how we did it. The why was to, again, bring ourselves up to more complex, more value-add to our customers, become more of a partner to them rather than building to print on PCBs, right? So even the PCBs we do are mostly build to spec. We're not building to print. We have engineers that are embedded with our customers, helping them design, not only for a small batch, but ultimately for manufacturability, right? So that's the value and the know-how we bring to them, is that we can help them scale, and then we can help pull the -- our business, we can do not only PCB, but then the assembly and subsystems above that, right? So we can offer you a full suite of product. And so as we bought companies with that engineering know-how, we thought we could bring more value to our customers. So we want a seat at the table. We want to be more of a partner.

Right. And it's just occurred to me, you said above the board a couple of times. I just want to make sure that everybody understands that, that's not like doing something well and right. The printed circuit boards, that green card we all have seen inside of whatever electronic device we've disassembled at some point in our lives. And it's all of the microelectronics system on top of the board. So is it -- from where you guys are able to extract margins? Is it just shooting the chips onto the board, the assembly side of it? Or is it working with the customer to design an integrated board layout of it, do the assembly and deliver to them a finished solution?

Absolutely. Right. Understanding what their final solution and what their -- what the needs are of the system. We can help design that into the board, right? And then we have -- we can build complexity into the board, whether it's layers, whether it's the density of the circuits, whether it's thermal control or what-have-you. So a lot that goes into that board to be able to allow them to put the circuitry and chips and other components that they want. So we understand the whole system and can help them do a lot of that or we can go in, starting with designing the board that will allow that, right? And designing a board that can be manufactured in volume to do all this, right? And the other thing I will mention is the footprint, right? So we do have a very large U.S.-based footprint, right? We're the largest PCB manufacturer. So as we started acquiring those businesses and we started getting into the aerospace and defense market, obviously, that's all going to be done onshore. So again, another reason for wanting to be a good part of that defense industrial base, right, because we are a large manufacturer, we can do volume for our customers and for our defense department.

Right. So on the defense growth, because I think you -- in your chart, suggests that it's going to be above trend in '25 for aerospace and defense. Is that organic?

That is organic.

That's organic. Okay.

Everything in those charts is organic that we anticipate for growth.

Right. And then to be able to grow faster, I guess there's a couple of things that could be happening. One, you're on some programs that are about ready to take off, right, and are growing faster than the overall budget. That could certainly explain part of it. And then another part of it could be just acquiring -- getting designed in or getting new positions. So maybe talk to us a little bit about the growth profile of some of your most important programs. I think you said 20% represent 50% of the revenue pie, roughly, from an order of magnitude for defense spending?

Roughly, I think.

I won't quote you on it, but in rough order of magnitude. So is it that those 20 programs are growing faster than the overall defense market by virtue of it's just time for those programs to go [indiscernible]?

That's it exactly. I think it's timing. It's the life cycle of those programs. It's the refresh of radar systems right now and the additional electrification of our radar systems and enhancing their capabilities, right? So there's tech refreshes going on -- and so you want to be able to, again, you need boards as well as microelectronic equipments that can do things faster, manage it in smaller space or in the same footprint, but get more out of that same footprint, right, because the system has already been built, right? And so we're able to engineer and design now, with this technology we're capable of doing, more capability within that same space, right? So the other thing that I should bring up here as well is because we have a commercial part of our business as well, 50% of the commercial business, oftentimes, the technology there is ahead of what the Department of Defense is using on the electronics side, right? So we're able to pull through manufacturing capabilities, IP and technical know-how from the commercial side into the defense side. Obviously, it only goes one way, it doesn't go out. But the skills and the ability and know-how we develop on that high-volume commercial side helps us on the defense side to be able to be -- bring things to market quicker, to design in things quicker. So as we -- as -- if the Department of Defense does start getting more efficient at acquiring things, right, we think kind of a more commercial mindset will benefit us. We could bring things to market quicker. So part of your question is about growth. I think that the programs that we are on are experiencing good growth and we've been able to kind of pull through more content on those products as well. Over -- through our engagement, again, above the board and...

Land and expand kind of effect, right?

Yes.

Okay. And then so that initial position that you get, just talk to us a little bit about -- so you win a new board or the fully assembled board with the whole layout on it. Talk to us a little bit about the sales cycle on that? Is it that you're taking business from an existing supplier? Or is it bringing it out of your customers?

Oftentimes, it's out of the customer. There's -- again, at our size and scale, there's been a lot of competition. There are a few smaller houses, but then a lot of it is, yes, the primes are doing it in-house, right? And so the primes may be able to do it in-house at smaller scale, do prototyping in LRIP, but then they really want to go to volume. So our Syracuse building is a good example, right? So the reason we're building that is our customers are giving us a strong demand signal for the need for ultra high-density interconnect PCB boards in the future. We are able to, right now, help them design and build those in small batch, right? They were probably doing it themselves, small batch came to us. We're helping them prototype, build that in some of our facilities in the U.S. But to get to scale, we're building a purpose-built facility, almost 200,000 square feet in Syracuse, New York to get to the scale that they need. They don't want to do that in-house, right? I mean they want to come to us to do that and we can do that for multiple customers.

So that facility is up and running? Do you have a big backlog that you're going to go...?

When it's up and -- so it's being built this year.

When it's up and running.

For facilities, yes, for demand coming in early 2026. Okay, but we will have...

Does growth accelerate in '26 then for aerospace and defense?

That's the signal we're getting in this particular technology, right? The need for ultra-high density interconnect PCBs.

Okay. So this is -- you're designed on some high-growth programs right, new platforms. So new programs that are...?

That I can't necessarily talk about.

Yes, understood. Okay. I got you. I have [indiscernible] of course. Okay. Got it. Let's see here. Okay. So we've got programs that are ramping, we're getting more outsourcing work from your customers on the A&D side of things. Okay. That all sounds pretty good. And then we've got maybe just one last question on this front on A&D and then we'll maybe move to some of the other markets. One of the things that I came into this conference wanting to try to learn. I think I've learned it, but I'm going around making sure I get affirmation of what I think I've learned. So today, we've got the large-cap primes, DoD is raining money down and it rains on the large-cap primes and then TTM and others kind of sit underneath that rain shadow and pick up their fair share, right? And in the future, if it's left up to Musk and Peter Thiel and that whole cadre of people, there's going to be money raining down over here over the Andurils of the world and all these new defense tech companies, right? So I did have the Chairman of Anduril on stage yesterday and he was one that I really wanted to ask the question of. Because historically, SpaceX has been more vertically integrated than the primes. So there's maybe been less opportunity for your traditional suppliers to come feed into the SpaceX ecosystem. So my fear coming into the conference was that I would -- what I would hear from him is like, yes, we're going to be vertically integrated as well. Okay, well, that's not good because as share shifts over to these guys, the suppliers over here, the rain starts to dry up, right? But he did say that they're going to be horizontal not vertical, they are going to rely on the traditional supply base. So I guess the question is, a, are you guys working with Anduril? And then secondly would be, what are you hearing from some of these other VC-backed companies that are starting to produce some hardware?

Yes. We tend to not talk much specific about customers we're dealing with, but we certainly -- we do see that as opportunity for us, right? We certainly -- I will say we will -- we will and are talking to all of those new entrants into the market as well. Encouraged to hear you, the comments that you made about horizontal as well. We think we bring value there. And part of what again, I said I think we see as opportunity with DOGE even in the primes is that maybe they will stop doing some of the vertical integration, they will outsource some of that to us because...

They've got to get smart about cost.

Right. They've got to get smart on cost and we can do it more efficiently. We can do it at scale. So we see both sides of that as opportunity for us, right? And then the Andurils and Palantirs and others will offer new markets that we currently maybe are underrepresented within the primes right now that they may open up to us, right? And we have more of a commercial mindset and more agile thinking, similar to theirs, than what the primes do. So we see both of those opportunities. There's new markets that we're not -- we don't play that much in the -- under the primes and like the autonomous systems, autonomous air vehicles, right, and things like that. So maybe these other customers. And then on the commercial side, eVTOL, we're talking to some of those customers as well. We could use some of our radar systems there. So there's a lot of opportunity in those other smaller, more nimble companies that we think we could play in.

Okay. Okay. Great.

But -- so we are talking to them.

So we spent 25 -- no, 27 minutes, 26 minutes, I guess, on 50% of your business. Should we spent the last 13 and change on the other 50%?

We can.

Okay. Yes. Great. I forget how you described it on your chart, there was this something that's kind of exposed to the hyperscaling data center. I guess data...

Data center computing. Yes, we call it data center computing. And we also have a networking. And I think if you kind of look at those together, they're both being pulled along through -- by this generative AI boom right now. So data center computing grew almost 60% year-over-year in ...

What percent?

Almost 60%.

60.

From 2023 to 2024. The data center computing for our company.

Okay. Do that again.

I would like to. But unfortunately, it got us to capacity, right? So we have 1 major factory in China that does that. We added some capacity at year-end in that facility, as well as we're trying to certify a second facility there. So we're adding -- as of year-end, we brought on about 20% more capability. So as we go into 2025, we can see that growth also with Penang, Malaysia coming on. So that's ramping this year. That currently is built, incurring cost, overhead, people and has very little revenue. We're going to scale up revenue there. And the customers there are hyperscalers, are probably going to be the #1 customer there, data center computing as well as some of the other markets we'll talk about next. Some of the industrial automation and medical instrumentation.

So how does this work from a strategic perspective, from a capital deployment perspective, from management's perspective? Are you building it and they will come? Or do you have a bunch of firm orders, anxious customers?

We have customers. So the reason we built Penang was because we had customers asking for an alternative to China, right? Either an alternative altogether or at least a China plus 1 strategy, right? So that was in response to them. We had 4 major customers asking for it. They are what we call anchor customers. They've actually put money in, so they've got skin in the game to bring product there. Some of that product, about 15% to 20% of that, will be cannibalized from the China factories, but the rest will be new part numbers, new product that's going into Malaysia. The Malaysia facility is about -- going to be about $180,000 to $200,000 of revenue on an annual rent basis ultimately when it gets ramped up. So that was customer-driven, right? And then so that's how, again, so we don't have years of orders on that commercial side, right? But that was more -- not that I have a bunch of orders and I need you to build it, it's more I haven't -- I need an alternative to China, right? So that's why we built that. Now with generative AI, again, maximizing our capability in one of our China factories. This gives us an alternative to now move more of that capability there. So now we are starting to see the demand that will help fill that factory, right?

Right. One follow-up question on Penang and then I want to spend a few minutes on China. On Penang, I've been there before and walked around a lot of these contract manufacturing facilities that are there. And you guys are adding greenfield capacity there? Did you take over a facility and reoutfitting it?

We built greenfield capacity there, right.

The town must be gigantic by now.

I've been there in a long time, but -- there are other facilities. And so again, I mean we're looking at -- is there another wave to this or what-have-you, there are other facilities out there that are -- that may be a future for us, but this one was a greenfield.

Okay. Okay. Got it. So on China, you mentioned -- I'm sorry.

So we could build it the way we want it and it's highly automated.

Right. Okay. Got it. Got it. So China, you mentioned some of that work you're going to be putting into Penang is coming out of China. My brother is the Chief Compliance Officer at KLA. So I've been kind of living unfortunately vicariously through the hell he has been through in trying to abide by all these regulations that the commerce department has thrown at these guys over the last several years, right? So I understand why you might want to get out of China for particularly the hyperscalers and anything that touches AI and NVIDIA chips, all that kind of good stuff. But maybe tell us a little bit more about what you -- what percentage of revenue today, the $2.4 billion, is produced in China today?

About 40% of it.

40%, okay. Yes. So what end market is that?

And so it's all those commercial end markets that we listed. So largest being data center computing and then networking, medical, industrial and instrumentation as well as automotive. So those are all done in -- mostly in China, the majority of the manufacturing is in China.

Okay. And how much of that is for internal consumption in China?

About 2% of our overall sales, 2% to 3% overall sales are internal. So most of those are exported out of China. We deliver -- so if you're going to get to a tariff question, we deliver in China to our customers. They ultimately end up outside of China. The end user is outside, but our delivery is normally in China.

Okay. So 40% of revenue, 2% is to Chinese customers, 38% is going to other manufacturers operating in China who then export from there.

Absolutely.

Got it. Okay. Yes, I can imagine not much consumer electronics, though?

No, no. So it's -- so our customers, like in automotive, it's the Tier 1 suppliers, right? Medical, we do surgical robotics. So we're delivering to the folks making those machinery, glucose monitors, things like that in medical. Industrial, robotics, automation, industrial automation. So those folks building the machinery for that. And then in instrumentation, it's more automated test equipment, so for something like vector testing. So with the data center growth, that's -- the testing of that is getting bigger as well.

Right. So have you guys started to get any early indications from your customers in China, the non-Chinese customers, that they want you to start thinking about or they are thinking about exiting China?

I think that's been the message since first Trump administration, right? So I think that's why we built Malaysia, so we have that alternative. Obviously, we also have a large footprint in North America, so you can bring -- we can onshore here. We can add facilities here -- I mean Syracuse is one of those, right? So Syracuse, as I mentioned, we had 4 main customers in Penang indicating they need an alternative. With Syracuse, as we talked before, there certainly is a demand signal there, right? So we're building to demand. But yet, those customers, I think we're kind of -- we're in a wait and see situation right now with China, I think. I mean if it becomes more urgent, we're ready to respond to that, but we're not getting anything -- we're not getting anything more pressing right now.

Right. Is there anything unique in the technology that's going on there that would be difficult to stand up somewhere else pretty quickly?

Not necessarily technology. I think...

Maybe some of the know-how.

It's more the know-how. So it's bringing that know-how that we know what we're doing. The equipment sets and things like that, we use similar equipment sets here in the U.S. already in our factories. So we could easily port that and use that. It's the manufacturing know-how and engineering.

Sorry, I went down a rabbit hole on this. Sorry to everybody in the room. But maybe at this point, to wake the audience up...

The biggest factor is cost.

Yes. Right. I do think we have a question here?

[indiscernible]

Yes. Majority of those sit in Asia. So a lot of those, when you get to that number, right, that's counting a lot of your operators on the floor in the plants, right? So our factories in Asia are much larger. They're doing large volume commercial products. The factories in North America are smaller, doing more [indiscernible] aerospace and defense.

[indiscernible] automated in North America?

Some, we have a large footprint, some yes, some no. But it's lower volume, mostly in North America. I mean -- that's right. Part of the A&D, compare A&D to like commercial markets, I mean there's always a lower volume, right?

Right. Yes. I think we got a question here. Go ahead, you've got the mic.

Yes. So on the Malaysia facility, as you mentioned, it is a drag on the margins. And I think that you said that by Q3, will be ramped up to around $30 million, $35 million. And my question is basically what is the level of visibility that you have around getting to this level? And just how confident you are about getting there?

Good question. So we -- that is one of our key focuses this year. So backing up, it drove about a -- the Penang facility, we built it out, started incurring depreciation and everything else. We've got labor there. It's been built out since the end of last year. And so it was drag -- it was a drag of about 180 basis points on our operating margin through all of 2024. Q4, that was about 170 basis points. Our projection for Q1 is about 160 basis points. We only project 1 quarter in advance. But we have signaled, as you mentioned, getting to breakeven by Q3 of this year. That's probably 6 months or so later than we expected. We had expected to get there by the end of 2024. But had slower-than-expected process through getting qualification with our customers, qualifying the parts and the machinery and what-have-you and then getting inserted into the next design. So we are starting to see orders. So through 2004 -- or through 2024, very small revenue. We started to see orders and revenue coming in Q1. And so that's given us comfort and more confidence that those customers are starting to put orders in. As orders come in and we start building, our yields will get better. So to get to that number, not only do you have to get the orders in and get parts number, but also become -- to start yielding better, right, so we can get to break even. So we are getting more and more confident, but we do generally only see 3 to 6 months of orders or demand indication in advance. So we'll know by next quarter. But yes, the ramp-up between Q1 and Q3 is pretty steep. But again, we have our anchor customers there that are supporting us.

And maybe just to help him get a little bit more comfort with that, describe the -- and I'm not sure for what your name is. What was your name? Nice to meet you. The workforce that's in Penang, that's kind of indigenously there. I mentioned earlier that I've been -- it's been probably 20 years since I've been to Penang and walked those facilities. But this is not something new to Penang. There's a highly skilled workforce.

No. Yes. There's a highly-skilled workforce. I mean there is, as you mentioned, a lot of other tech companies in Penang. And we also brought over, as I mentioned, I mean one of the values -- the valuable assets we have is our current know-how. So we brought folks from our other Asia facilities, our China facilities, into there to train them. And so we've always -- we've got a little bit of back and forth, folks that are rotating in there, doing some of that work, getting those parts qualified and then training the workforce there. So yes, you have a knowledgeable workforce and then you have our folks that are going in there and giving them our best practices from our other factories as well, right?

Okay. Cool. I think Don's got one as well.

Yes. So I'm newer to the story, but I'm looking over the last 5 years, you've outperformed small-cap index. You've beaten, it looks like a lot of your peers, by a wide margin. What do you think investors are either overlooking or not appreciating enough? Like what do you think they're missing?

Sure. It's a good question, one that Sameer and I and my boss ask ourselves all the time. We think we're continue -- we're still undervalued. What -- part of it is the story about the A&D, I think, stability and the fact that, again, in aerospace and defense and within North America, we are the largest PCB manufacturer. So that provides us a really good base, right, and gives us a foothold in a lot of contracts that we can then pull through as we get more and more experience in the integrated electronics and the work that we're doing above that, we can just continue to pull through more content, I believe. That's our strategy. I think folks, because that's only 50% of our business, maybe they don't value the other 50% as much, either don't understand it or see the risk of Asia and what-have-you, right? And so I think we're, if you look at our multiple, we're valued somewhere between a contract manufacturer and aerospace and defense. I'd like to be more towards the aerospace and defense. But I think people are hesitant or don't understand or feel like there's more risk on that Asia side. But as we discussed, we're not delivering into Asia, we're not delivering -- we're not supplying to Asia customers. Our customers are multinationals, U.S.-based, European-based and very small exposure to actual China. And we have such a global footprint that we can easily shift out of there if needed, into Malaysia into the U.S.

Right. Okay. Perfect. The clock is counting up, which means we're over time. Don ended up asking what is usually my last question, which is to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about the investment thesis, which I think you -- anything else you want to add to it?

I think the only other thing is just we are continuing to expand our operating margin, obviously, through cost control and what-have-you, but also just as Penang comes up, that's a big lever on our margins, as well as in the aerospace and defense as we become more involved in integrated products and value-added we'll continue to heighten and enhance our operating margin.

Perfect. That was great. Thank you, everybody, for sticking around for the last session. Appreciate it.

Thank you, all. Thank you, Jason. Thanks.