TX Group AG (TXGN) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Half Year 2020 Results Analyst Conference Call. I am Myra, the Chorus Call operator. [Operator Instructions] The conference is being recorded. [Operator Instructions] The conference must not be recorded for publication or broadcast. At this time, it's my pleasure to hand over to Pietro Supino, Chairman and Publisher of TX Group; Mr. Sandro Macciacchini, CFO; and Mr. Patrick Matthey, Head of Communications. Please go ahead, gentlemen.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you. I would like to welcome you to this conference call of TX Group 2020 Half Year Results. You will hear Pietro Supino, Chairman and Publisher; Sandro Macciacchini, CFO; and Samuel Hügli, Head of Technology and Ventures. You will then be able to ask them questions. I will now give the floor to Pietro Supino.

Hello, everybody, and thank you for your interest. The result for the first half year of 2020 is presented for the first time under the name of TX Group, and we are proud how fast we were able to establish the new decentralized structure of our company in the first half of the year. The 4 companies under the roof of TX Group, TX Markets, Goldbach, 20 Minutes and Tamedia, they have organized themselves with their own management team and in a decentralized autonomous new structure, each of them. The group is the common denominator, and the goal of the group besides being the owner of this company, obviously, is to make sure that synergies are used where possible and also to realize revenue potentials, namely around the theme of data. In the first half year of 2020, we have, at the same time, had a look at the services of the group for 2 reasons. On the one hand, it's part of the concept of the decentralized group that the companies of the group should have more flexibility when choosing services from the group or from elsewhere. And secondly, it was important to us to contribute to necessary cost savings of all our companies through also a reduction of the cost of the group services. In the new setting, TX Group is a network of platforms, which offers information, orientation, entertainment and also services for everyday needs and reaches every day more than 80% of the Swiss population. TX stands for interdisciplinary collaboration, for innovation and for a dynamic development from [within group]. On that basis, the group and our companies have had a good start in a new area at the beginning of this year. But already from mid-March, namely 20 Minutes, Goldbach and Tamedia as well as the job markets of TX markets were hit by the corona crisis. While on the one hand, the usage of our journalistic platforms and also of our marketplaces could grow and has achieved new record highs, on the other hand, the traditionally volatile advertisement income has been hit hardly and has declined sharply. Overall, the decline in revenues of 18% in the first 6 months of this year could be compensated by 40% through immediate cost savings. Bottom line, the cash flow result is plus/minus 0, which obviously is not good. At the same time, considering the unexpected and unprecedented crisis, it can also be seen as a positive sign that, nonetheless, we were able to navigate through this first 6 months of the year with 0 result. The total result or financial result was affected by an impairment of Tamedia of CHF 85 million, which, and I would like to stress this, is more the consequence of an ongoing structural changement than of the actual crisis. The crisis and the challenges that go with it, they will, of course, need more time to be overcome. But our main concern is the structural changement of our industry. And there, we think that as the leading Swiss media and technology group, from journalism to commercial platforms, we are in a very good position to move forward. Journalism is and will remain the heart of our business. But with the same empathy and also with a lot of heart, we will push forward the development of our portfolio of all digital platforms that we have. And that is possible, thanks to our excellent collaborators and our excellent management. If we do it right, we are convinced we can, based on our position and also based on the solid balance sheet that we have, get through this crisis and come out of it even stronger than we went into it, also this in comparison with our competition. I would like to close with the remark that, of course, we are aware of the severeness of the situation, but we think that there is no reason to deviate from the way we are going and that we should concentrate on it, stick to it and as I said, try to also benefit from the crisis to get out of it stronger than we got into it. Now I would like to hand over to Sandro, our CFO, who will give you a more detailed report on the financial situation. Then I will come back with some more details on our company. And finally, Sam will close with a summary of considerations regarding the group, mainly from the point of view of technology and our thriving ventures business.

Thank you, Pietro. Hello, everybody. I would like to guide you through some slides of the presentation, which you can find on our website, and I start immediately with the overview shown on Slide 9 of the presentation. Starting from the left, you can see that turnover decreased by 18%. As Pietro already mentioned, we were able to offset around 45% of the decline by cost measurements. First, we immediately introduced short time work with an effect of CHF 11.5 million. Other measurements were the reduction of the circulation of 20 Minutes and lower marketing expenses. We also benefited of lower paper prices. This led to a decline of EBITDA by CHF 57 million and of EBIT adjusted by CHF 59 million. EBIT adjusted stood at CHF 12 million. Below EBIT adjusted, we report 2 main effects. Firstly, the amortization resulting from business combination rose by around CHF 5 million cost from this year on as we have already announced. We amortized also Tamedia's brand linearly. That means that the full year effect will be around CHF 10 million. Secondly, and mostly, we have to report an impairment of the cash-generating unit, Tamedia, in the amount of CHF 85 million, mainly because we expect lower cash flows from their activities. The increase in the WACC also had a negative impact on the valuation. The amount of CHF 85 million is the delta between our book value and the estimated net present value of the [group] in the amount of CHF 176 million. The higher write-downs turned to EBIT adjusted in a negative EBIT of CHF 107.5 million and a net loss of CHF 109.4 million. To continue, I would like to comment more in detail our top line development on the following charts. Chart 10 shows that advertising market was heavily hit in the second quarter and was down by around 20% in the first 6 months of this year. These are gross figures. That means that they do not take into account the individual discounts and free space. The next slide in contrast shows the decline in net revenue for print advertising. As you can see, this so-called daily press I, which includes supraregional daily newspaper and 20 Minutes and Sunday press were particularly hit hard by the crisis. This decline then explains more than 80% of our revenue decline, as shown on the next chart. You can see that Slide 12 that advertising revenue declined by CHF 64 million and commercialization and intermediary revenue by minus CHF 12 million. In contrast, revenue from classifieds and services and also revenue from subscriptions and individual sales were more or less stable. Printing revenue was down by another CHF 10 million, but this can be related mainly to lower paper volume and prices for third parties, which were offset on the cost side. Organic growth, as shown on the next slide, was down by 20% during -- excluded is mainly Zattoo, which was consolidated from the second quarter last year on. Due to the ongoing transformation of our business, our digital revenue share, as shown on Slide 14, climbed to 55%. As you can see in the middle of this slide, publishing digital advertising market revenue contributed 28% to our total publishing advertising market revenue. The main contribution comes from 20 Minutes, which already generated more than 50% of their revenues digitally. The share of publishing digital user market revenue was 26% of the total user market revenue. This revenue is, of course, revenue of the Tamedia division. The next chart shows the normalized net income. Besides the impairment, we excluded a gain from the sale of Renovero. In the previous period, we excluded the financial gain of around CHF 20 million from the sale of search local (sic) [ Localsearch ]. As a result, normalized net income was down by CHF 59 million compared to the previous period, which is in line with the operational development. As already announced, we changed our segmentation due to the new structure of the group. You see it for the first time on Slide 16. Each of the 4 subgroup is now reported separately. The fifth subgroup includes -- or the fifth segment, includes our ventures activities and our group services. The revenues of the group services are mostly intersegment revenues including the rent of our real estate and printing plant, whereas third-party revenues can be attributed to ventures. [ Based on that, ] we'll later on give you more details about the performance of the different companies, so that I can directly jump to the cash flow statement shown on Page 17. As you can see on the left side, cash flow from operating activities was down only to CHF 15 million after taxes. And our CapEx was around CHF 15 million, so that we can say that we were able to finance our CapEx with our own funds being generated in this year and that sums up to the 0 that Pietro Supino already has mentioned. Cash flow from investing activities includes the sales price for Starticket among others and cash flow from financing activities, of course, mainly the dividends distributed to the major shareholders and also to the minorities. Cash and cash equivalents stood at CHF 184.3 million at the end of the half year. Next chart shows the CapEx. As already mentioned, with CHF 15 million, a little bit higher than in the previous period, for the future, we upheld our guidance that we will have a CapEx of around 2% of operating revenues, consisting mainly of the investments in IT and so-called retrofits of our printing plant. Next and last chart from my side shows that equity ratio was up to 75%, and net liquidity stood at CHF 112 million. Both figures show that TX Group is in good financial health and is in a good position to benefit from the opportunities which the crisis will offer also from a financial perspective. That's all from my side. Thank you for your attention.

Once again Pietro speaking with now some remarks regarding our companies. I'll be very short on that. You have 3 slides, I think, for each of the companies. What I'm saying is complementary to it, not going through the slides. And I'll be short also for the reason that originally, our idea was to hold a physical conference, where the CEOs of the 4 companies would present themselves, and we think that's still what we should do as soon as possible, presumably when we can present you the results for the full year of 2020. And for that reason, I will be rather short. Nevertheless, some remarks regarding our companies, and I'm starting with TX Market is really on the bright side of the spectrum for the first half year of 2020. And it is remarkable how resilient these activities have reacted to the crisis, and it confirms the high value that is in these activities. It also confirms the strategy of the diversification of these activities. To mention that Ricardo and Tutti have performed exceptionally well. They have benefited from the crisis. While, of course, the recruitment market was negatively affected from the crisis and that consequently is true for job market, maybe the most valuable part of the portfolio. In the real estate market, the crisis has immediately had a negative impact, but it was interesting to observe that relatively -- in a relatively short time, the real estate market came back. And we can say that Homegate was able to consolidate its #1 position at real estate marketplace in Switzerland. Now in the sense of an outlook and confirmation of the strategy, this TX Market, we want to be the Swiss market leader, and we want to invest in our activities because they still promise growth. And we believe that strengthening this activity is also the best way of protecting them from possible disruptions, which, of course, exist in such a dynamic environment. And the second leg of the strategy is to grow through acquisitions in Switzerland and also in the European neighborhood. And these are possibilities that we are starting and are prepared to go into once the opportunity comes up. Secondly, Goldbach is, of course, very much affected as a advertisement company from the downturn in the advertising market as a consequence of the corona crisis. In June, the situation calmed down, but it is still not really possible to give an outlook of how it will develop in the second half of the year. The opportunity of the crisis lies in the strategy of cross media offerings, which are already part of Goldbach's strategy, but is a direction where we can go further. And at the same time, in aggregating premium inventory for advertisement in Switzerland. The vision ultimately for Goldbach is to become a Swiss media sales house 360 degrees and really aggregating the bulk of Swiss premium inventory. And the key to success will be, in our view, further investments into technology, which is a very dynamic environment in the advertisement world and also to be close to our customers here in Switzerland, where we think Goldbach has an advantage vis-à-vis the global competition. On top of that, Goldbach is still striving for above-average growth in the segment of outdoor advertisement, where we have the first foothold with Neo, but we believe there is much more potential for us. I come to 20 Minutes, which as Goldbach has been hardly hit by the crisis, on the one hand it's logical because 20 Minutes is purely advertisement finance newspaper and digital platforms. On the other hand, the newspaper specifically was particularly hit by the fact that it distributed along the net of public transport, which, of course, was underutilized during the last months. Nevertheless, on all channels, 20 Minutes has offered reliable information throughout the crisis, and digital usage has grown to record highs and also the part of digital advertisement in the revenue has further grown to 56%. That's obviously also driven by the fact that print advertising went down. But I'd like to stress that 20 Minutes already before the crisis had almost 50% share of digital advertising, which is extraordinary. I think it's really world-class compared with any other medium that is publishing in print and in digital. And it shows that 20 Minutes has already gone a very long way in the digital transformation, and therefore, has much less of a structural problem than Tamedia to which I will come later on. Looking forward, the main drivers of value for 20 Minutes lie in the dimensions of video and audio and also thematically in lifestyle. And through that, the position as the strongest publishing platform in Switzerland and Luxembourg should be not only solid in fact -- but further expand it. And in Austria, where we don't have yet that position, it is the goal to -- get access -- to get to such a position. Finally, I come to Tamedia. Tamedia has, as Goldbach and 20 Minutes, suffered under the advertisement downturn, but Tamedia has benefited on the side of the user market. And that is particularly positive because it is exactly the strategy of the digital transformation of Tamedia to grow the revenues from the digital user market. What is necessary to do this is good journalism, and we feel that Tamedia has offered very good journalism throughout last month from the quality of information to analysis and orientation and also to entertainment to the extent that is compatible with platforms of quality newspapers. It's important that the journalism remains rooted in the regions. It is important that more than in the past, and that is the development underway, but not yet accomplished, regard is given to the interests and the needs of the users. And finally, we feel that in terms of storytelling, there is much more potential to be realized by the organization of Tamedia. And we feel that the organization is developing skills and moving in that direction. It is positive. In the case of Tamedia, we think that the revenue mix is changing. It is for the first time that the higher part of revenue comes from the user market than from the advertisement market. Since the summer of 2018, that part has grown from 44% to 54%. That, however, shows that the dependence on the advertisement market for Tamedia is still high, and we have to face the fact that these revenues are in a structural downturn that will continue and will continue even once the actual crisis is overcome. To give you an idea, in 2019, Tamedia has lost CHF 34 million of revenues. In the first half of 2020, the downturn has been CHF 47 million. And we think that in the best of all cases, after the crisis, the structural decline will go back to levels before the crisis. Nonetheless, we remain convinced that Tamedia can have a good future if we go through the transformation. And for that, we invest in the digital transformation, and we have also invested in the new organizational setup, but in order to avoid to become chronically negative, the management of Tamedia is planning to reduce the cost basis of Tamedia over the next 3 years by 15% or CHF 70 million. In relative terms, that is not outrageous, 15% over 3 years. In absolute terms, of course, CHF 70 million is a high number, and everybody is aware of the magnitude and also of the challenges that it will pose in the implementation, but we are convinced and are very happy that the new management of Tamedia is driving that transformation. Because it is simply necessary, and if it is done well, we'll come out of that crisis with a sustainable business that we are looking forward to see as part of our group because it contributes also culturally and in terms of reach to our group. And the reach is one of the drivers that make our venture business so interesting for us besides the investment opportunities as such in there. And with this, I would like to hand over to Sam.

Thank you, Pietro, and welcome from my side as well. If you follow the presentation and the slides, you'll be on Page 37 now. And here, you have the combined revenue and EBIT numbers of the group services including property management and ventures as well as the services from Sandro Macciacchini, finance and HR and stuff. Overall, this consists of about 700 employees in this group, and it has the majority investments into Doodle, Zattoo, Olmero as well as a few minority investments with Neon, Monito, MoneyPark, Lykke is certainly helping, fairly small things that are not really shown -- reflected in the numbers because we only have minorities with them. But overall, we see a very pleasing situation in terms of the growth in revenues and EBIT for the ventures department. We have been growing the revenues by 34%, and the EBIT was also increased quite significantly. So quite happy with the growth strategy of our 2 main assets, the Doodle and the Zattoo company. Doodle is doing the scheduling as you probably know and Zattoo is a streaming TV company based here in Switzerland. The ventures team is following a fairly active grow or go strategy. So we demand that all companies are growing annually top line by at least 10%. Otherwise, we consider to get rid of them in our portfolio. And this was happening end of last year. We sold our stake in the ticketing company, Starticket. Looking back, you can say that was probably a bit of luck and -- that we were able to sell that company end of 2019, and we closed the deal in, I think it was in March when we closed everything. And also sold a property platform, Renovero, which was not performing the way we wanted. And of course, also, we had to restructure cost in the group level. This is -- was very demanding from [for my department] tech -- mainly IT, not so much the data and the engineering department, more standard tech department, the IT department as well as the services groups. Here, we had to cut cost by 20%, which is about CHF 20 million overall. If you follow me on Slide 38, you see a few -- like basically 4 charts that show a bit what we're doing with Doodle and Zattoo. Both of them were coming out of the COVID crisis quite quickly and recovered very nicely. At Doodle, we're almost at the new level, at all new high levels. And Zattoo was always performing quite well. We give you just the 4 numbers. The first one is the ARR. This is a new segment within Doodle. So far, we only had ad revenues with the product with those 200 million users that are using the platform worldwide. Now we were able to create a new segment. This is a SaaS segment, software as a service, and we increased that from about CHF 2 million to roughly CHF 4 million annual recurring revenues. I think it is a fantastic number for the small business to be able to attract major companies. Amongst them is the Salesforce, is the Booking.com, is Stanford University. So we've got a bunch of significant enterprise customers in there. On the other hand, we will also be able to grow the base, which is always a starting point for any company. So we were able to grow that by -- to about 5%. We are now at 2.1 million surveys that are happening on the platform every single month, which leads to these huge numbers at the end of the year. With the Zattoo portfolio, we are mainly active in Switzerland and Germany. Here, we're able to grow our subscriptions by roughly 9%. We are now at 220 subscriptions. And at the same time, we also have a second segment within Zattoo. This is providing streaming services for telcos and other service providers. It's a 1 plus 1 in Germany, it's within [ Dassault ] which are using those one-to-one streaming services. So we -- it seems to have a very competitive product. We were doing quite well with that. We were able to increase revenues by 88% year-over-year. So these are certainly the 2 diamonds within our ventures portfolio that were performing very, very nicely this year. If you jump on Page 39, here, it's a bit of an outlook in terms of ventures, technology and group level. I start with ventures. Here, we're going to focus on the 3 clusters we defined. First one is Doodle, then is Zattoo, that already discussed -- that I've already discussed. And then we have a new cluster, we call it fintech. Within fintech, we today have 4 investments that is Neon, it's Neon Bank. It's an app-based bank. It's Monito. It's a foreign exchange service, where you can see how you transfer money abroad. It's MoneyPark. It's for -- if you have property and you want to get a mortgage for this property. And the last one is Lykke, which is a blockchain exchange that we're building up. So these are the 4 investments, and there's another 2 investments coming up in the course of the year. So we expect that to have -- have that closed by the end of this year. In the technology department, we were very pleased this year that the tech team did allow us to get through the crisis quite smoothly. We invested a lot of money in the last few years to build up an infrastructure that allows to have mobile office and home office. So without any major disruption, we were able to move into home office and most of the processes were working like a charm. So very pleased and it complements to our IT team here. Then the main focus in terms of tech is going to be data. This is what Pietro already said, our major thing that we believe the group is having an advantage to provide the services around data. We have a vast amount of data that we produce and we record. It's roughly 3.5 billion data assets we create every single month. People are downloading 170 million assets from the TX Markets database. They use 7.5 million hours of reading time on our platforms. So it's a huge amount of data that we're providing and having available for all the different platforms. On a group level, we are certainly going to continue with that [indiscernible] setup. The setup into the 4 subgroups, there's small adjustments to be made for the next few months, and we will focus on delivering on this K2 cost-saving program. Here, we started, that's going to be around over 3 years, and we are well on track. The first savings are already in the books as we speak. I believe, from my point of view of tech and ventures, we have a fantastic digital portfolio that we want to grow, and we are happy to have a long-term thinking shareholder who is supporting us, who wants to define a new growth strategy for the overall group. Even so, we may have a bit of a hit into our face with the COVID crisis right now and the structural downturn. We know what we have to do. We're going to work on that diligently and we get out of that, and we will have a lot of options on our table. And very pleased that running ventures to know we have the financial means if we want to invest. And I have teams, the M&A team at TX Markets and in my ventures team who are looking out for new targets that we can expand and increase our portfolio, leading up to a new digital ecosystem that is bringing us to a completely new level. I would close with that and hand back to Patrick.

Thank you. Thank you, everyone. Thank you, Pietro Supino and thank you, Sandro Macciacchini. Ladies and gentlemen, you'll be now able to ask questions. Please go ahead.

[Operator Instructions] The first question is from Daniel Bürki from ZKB.

Daniel Bürki from ZKB. I have 2 questions to start. First, your restructuring program at Tamedia with savings planned CHF 70 million. How much are the restructuring costs? And then you -- will you book them this year over the 3 years? That's my first one. And then going to Slide 22. Where you mentioned at TX Markets, how the several segments performed? Could you give an indication about the sales? Let's say, JobCloud, how much the sales developed? Because if I look at the minorities, they halved, but this also mean that the profitability of JobCloud halved in the first half?

Regarding the restructuring costs, I can't give you a number yet because as also Pietro Supino has explained, we have to now detail the plan and therefore, also the measurements. And I only answer that we will be able to define if there is -- how much the restructuring cost and they will, from my -- as I foresee, it also won't be a one shot, but in steps. You could model -- make the comparison with the CHF 20 million for TX Group services and the restructuring costs for like 4.5, but that would be your calculation. For the minorities, you have to keep in mind that there is also included the minorities of Goldbach Media. And so the decline in minorities can't be explained only and also not for majority by the development of TX -- of jobs.

But could you still give -- sorry, an add-on, an indication how the sales and the profitability of JobCloud developed in the first half since this is your most profitable asset by far?

We don't give numbers on specific activities. But as I mentioned, the job market has been affected. And therefore, sales and profitability are affected in the job market. There is also a special situation and sales happens mostly through slots that are sold beforehand and then consumed. So there is a time lag. That first, the sold slots are consumed less. And then in the second phase, you sell less slots. But generally speaking, the job market is affected by the crisis. And therefore, JobCloud is affected.

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from Andy Schnyder from zCapital.

I've some add-on questions on Daniel's questions. So first, on the CHF 70 million cost cut. Could you give us some idea what the biggest building blocks are of this CHF 70 million? So how much is from employee reduction? How much is from other OpEx? And what might these other OpEx be? That would be helpful. That's the first question.

We cannot give you such indications as the process really proceeds that it is developed together with the departments of Tamedia. And what we know is that it will come from a multitude of sources, from source services, from less paper. And obviously, a large part of it will come from personnel costs, where we hope that as the program will run over 3 years, part of it can be absorbed by fluctuation. But it is clear that this dimension of necessary cost savings can only be achieved also through voluntary dismissals. But we are not able to seriously give a number on that one yet.

And you said before that you expect the structural decline to continue in advertising. And the structural decline over the past 2 years was probably rather minus 15% or minus 12%, 13%, 14%, 15% a year. So we've [Audio Gap] with further declining advertising sales. So in 2.5 years, you will again be at the same point and not have good profitability. So what can be done here? What's the solution? How should we look at that?

You're right in saying that the cost measures that we have announced today, they are certainly not exaggerated because we have this continuing decline on the side of print advertisement. However, we'll also have -- we hope some positive developments on the side of digital advertisement, but that will never offset the decline on the print side. But not only that, also in the user market, we have a decline of revenues on the print side. And the growth on the digital side, where the growth per account or per subscription will never -- in the digital world will never offset the loss on the print side. So for these reasons, the CHF 70 million are really the minimum that needs to be achieved over the next 3 years. But definitely, I think we are moving in the right direction. And if it turns out that it is not enough, then we will adjust it. It wouldn't make a difference now at the outset. We have started with what we really think is the minimum, and then we work through it. And we also hope that by building a new sustainable base for the business, we'll be able to develop further businesses on that base. So that's the second step. The first step is to rebuild the sustainable base.

Just to add on that, the figures you mentioned, but it's more about 10% and 15% is received as [an average] and digital concerns advertising. User market was less and also this half year is less. And as Pietro explained, user market is already more than half of the revenue. So that is also part of the explanation.

And an add-on question on markets. Ricardo and Tutti, if I'm not wrong, there were loss-making so far. With the good H1 tailwinds they had from COVID-19, were they profitable for the first time? Or what can you tell us about that?

Yes. For -- as Pietro Supino said, in principle we don't give numbers for individual activities. But yes, Ricardo recovered very well. And so Tutti, it -- as also explained in the past, has to be seen in -- together with the other verticals, and there the aim is not -- the priority is not to be profitable, but to have a kind of ecosystem together with the others. And -- but for Ricardo, I can't confirm.

And the good trends you had with Ricardo in H1, do they continue now into H2 or so? Are July and August still clearly above the year before and still profitable?

Yes. That trend continues, but it's not on the same level anymore as during the midst of the crisis, but we are on a higher level and still on a positive trend.

And for JobCloud, as you mentioned before, you don't disclose any numbers, but can we still assume that due to all the investments you are doing because you have more competition right now than you had a few years ago that the margins here are structurally, not only cyclically, but structurally, still a little bit under pressure. Is that fair to assume?

I mean the position of JobCloud is even stronger now than at the beginning of the crisis. That can certainly be said. I'm not sure whether it's right to say that the margins are now under pressure looking at this first half year. It is really the markets that is under pressure. We don't see a structural problem in the case of JobCloud, we see a problem of economic development, which is the main driver of job ads. And we still very much believe into that business. We also are very pleased with how it's being developed out of very traditional setups into more modern ways of helping employers and job seekers, for example, through more digital procedures. So we have no doubt about the long-term outlook and the structural development of that business. We really think that we face here a problem of economic downturn.

Okay. And then a quick one on Doodle. I don't really understand the ARR, annual recurring revenue. Is that subscriptions revenue from big companies? Or is that the total revenues of Doodle?

Oh, no, no. This is Sam again. No, it's not the total revenues. No, no, no, by far, no. It's only the segment of B2B sales. So it's the subscription that enterprise customers are paying. Sadly, I think tech capital is not yet -- oh no, it's no tech capital. You're not yet the customer of us. Otherwise, you would probably know. But there's a bunch of companies out there who say they want the solution for all of their employees, and they want it secure, they want to have integrated into their calendaring systems. Very often, it's companies who merged, like they have maybe 2 or 3 IT systems and they need a bridge between those systems so people can agree on appointments. So that's where Doodle is coming in with a perfect solution for them. But it's not private, it's really enterprise sales mainly. And then we have an ad business -- because we have huge amount of traffic, we also have an ad business, which is not part of that CHF 4 million.

Okay. Okay. Okay. Makes sense. Was a little bit shocked that the revenues are so low. But if it's just that part, I totally understand. And then a general question on all the different ventures. And it's probably to you, but -- or also to Mr. Supino. What is the general strategy with all these ventures? Is it more to bring them into Tamedia, let them benefit from all the reach you have through all the publishing medias and all your online sites and then sell them when they are getting bigger? Or is it more that you buy some interesting businesses and want to make them bigger and let them generate revenues and profits?

I can start with that, Sam again. We see us as an accelerator in terms of the speed how they can grow because we have huge amount of know-how, how to run those things. There's a bunch of about 40 to 50 people in services. We have them in TX services. So especially it's for marketing, especially for user design, technology people, security people, so we can really help them grow quite quickly, so we're not just bringing money to the table, otherwise, that would be in line with everybody else. So we bring a lot of know-how to the table, and we can allow them to speed up their growth through knowledge sharing on one hand. On the other hand, we can do certain deals with the reach we have and the assets we have. If I talk to them, what do you want? Oh, they want to have access to newspapers. They want to have access to maybe Homegate, they want to have access to 20 Minutes. So the ecosystem of the different platforms we have is a huge value for them. It's one of the reasons they join our portfolio. We stay opportunistic, but we are not a trader. So we're not buying and selling like on a monthly basis. But all assets, if we get a fantastic price, we sit down and talk, that we can certainly say.

More generally speaking, TX Markets and the ventures are the growth engines of our group. We face structural decline in some of our businesses, which we want to offset or even overcompensate the growth in other areas and the 2 areas where we see the main growth opportunities is TX Markets and ventures. In the case of Goldbach, if we can make the move into outdoor, there would also be a growth strategy there, while the other businesses, we really have to go through the digital transformation, which, by definition, will not bring a top line growth. And when we look at these growth areas, we have to differentiate between TX Markets where really it's more of our core business and ventures, which as the name already suggests, is not part of the core business. But in both cases, we can imagine that we will push this growth with partners and co-investors and even more so on the ventures side and especially with Doodle and Zattoo, which are 2 really fantastic companies, which have a lot of potential, we think, but are not exactly in the core of what we do. And therefore, there, we can very well imagine that the co-investor would not only bring money but also skills that we need for a global development of these 2 companies that have a global potential unlike our other activities. And then we are open, as Sam said, to a certain extent, opportunistic. Now I'm on the exit side, whether we will remain a shareholder of a business that has developed very well or whether we might in the end sell a part of or all of our stake, as we have done in MoneyPark, as we have done in Localsearch, to give you 2 examples where I think we have successfully created value and realized that value.

Okay. And just a last quick one on Neo Advertising.

I'm sorry. That will be the last question. We have to end this call in 2 minutes, the last question, please?

Okay. I'll let somebody else ask a question if there are other questions around there.

No, that's fine. We don't have any more questions, but you can go ahead if that's the last one.

Okay. Then on Neo Advertising. You reached now a certain size and won some tenders. How should we think about this business? We know little bit from our [indiscernible] how this business works and how profitability looks like in this business. But how do you steer that business? Is it as -- can it be as profitable as APG's business? Or is it more as you're much smaller, a lower-margin business for you? What's your ambition? I'm not talking about the current margin, which is, of course, impacted and it's probably still small, but longer term?

So as you know, out-of-home has very much been affected by the crisis, but we believe that long-term out-of-home and especially digital out-of-home has a great potential. And that's something we want to develop. And Neo is not more than a first, very, very small foot into this. And our ambition is much bigger, and we can develop that either through game-changing contract, let's say in English, when contracts are tendered. The last one, where we are still in legal disputes was the SBB contract. The Zurich [indiscernible] contract that's the public transport here in the Zurich area will come up. So this bigger ambition, we can only achieve through successes in such tender processes or through M&A into a bigger category.

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your questions and for your time, for your attention, and I wish you a good day. Bye-bye, everyone.

Thank you for your interest.

Bye-bye.

Bye-bye.

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