United Internet AG (UTDI) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, dear guests, welcome to the analysts and investors conference of United Internet AG. I'm very happy to be able to welcome you personally today. And I would also like to welcome the participants linked in via the webcast. I would like to walk you through the afternoon. First of all, Ralph Dommermuth will speak about the company development in the first half of the year and give you an outlook on the second half of the year. After that, Ralf Hartings will speak in detail about the financials. After our presentation, you will, as usual, have the possibility of asking your questions in a question-and-answer session. So let's start with the presentation. I'm giving the floor to Mr. Dommermuth. You have the floor, Mr. Dommermuth.

Thank you. Welcome, ladies and gentlemen. I think many of you have just been here in the session before, then this is why I weren't so much concentrate on 1&1, but the other business fields. And as announced, I will start with the business areas and the forecast and Mr. Hartings will give you the results of the first half of the year. Many of you have seen this chart. We have 2 areas of business access and applications, which we offer full business and consumer customers, and that leads to our 4 areas in the middle of the [ sea ] of assets. We have 10,700 employees. We generate about 55 million new contracts, 50,000 customers registered for the free services. We have 70 -- 67 million accounts and about 120 million data centers and 55 colocations. We have access to the Telefonica mobile network and our own optical fiber network. We offer our products in a number of outlets in the consumer area is mainly 1&1 and the Drillisch in the customer business area, we have 1&1 Versatel in applications, the consumer brands are GMX, GML and WEB.DE. And in the business area, especially with small and medium-sized companies, IONOS is strong with a number of subsidiaries from purchases and mergers in Germany and European areas, and we have minority partners that we cooperate with in our everyday business. Let's start with the access business for consumers. I have said so 1&1 is the biggest provider and just building their own mobile network. The turnover has increased by 2.1%, 0.2% of the revenues, other from providing smartphones, for example, by 10.4%. It's important that in the second half, we have been -- we're expecting a strong growth with 4% so that in the mix, we will deliver the 2% guidance for the service revenue for this year. I think I skipped the chart, let me see if I can move back. Is that possible? Can I move back a chart? Yes, that's the customer contract revenues, 180,000 customers that we won, 230,000 mobile, and we've lost 50,000 in the mobile broadband lines, but we want to compensate this now because we get customers from ADSL that have hike cancellation pressures we move them to VDSL, we have new more termination rates, and that is how we want to compensate for the losses in the fourth quarter. I've just explained the revenues planned for 1% after the first year -- first half. EBITDA in the first half of the year minus EUR 0.4 million driven by the expenses for the mobile network. If we look at the details we see a growth of 2.2% in our traditional access business and start-up losses in the mobile network of EUR 40.8 million compared to EUR 16.1 million in the year before. Business access. Here, we are active with the 1&1 Versatel brand with authorities and customers, business customers, we have a network with a bit more over 57,000 kilometers of cable, in the 25 larger cities with about 24,000 access points. The increase of revenue has been 3.3%. When you may say that's not much. So you invest such a lot. If you just look at the pure revenue with the optical fiber business, that has developed by 11%, which you don't see in this figure because in the old business, with ISDN access and rental lines, which we replaced our own lines, we are seeing a drop in turnover, but the powerful optical fiber network, which is the business of the future is growing well, 11% compared midyear to midyear before. EBITDA same development, 3% plus to EUR 77.2 million EBITDA margin just as in the year before. Included in that ramp-up costs to provide towers for 1&1. Antennas, which are just built -- build once they are taken over, and that is what we are ramping up the services for. Looking at the consumer applications. Here, we are developing our brands, e-mail services, GMX and WEB.DE. mail.com started once that way. Moving to communication centers for the private customer, personal information management, e-mail addresses task, cloud storage and online are the key figures here. We differentiate from our American competitors by data protection and the products are paid services, but usually are used as 3 accounts. And then are funded by advertising, which is done by Internet media. And we have 42.26 million accounts. That's a loss of 690. You know that we have a seasonal volatility and that is what many of these lost accounts are accounted for. If you compare it to summer last year, we have 42,000 free accounts less. But at the same time, we have 160,000 more pay accounts because we convert from free to pay accounts. The mobile use has dropped -- has increased by 100,000 customers, and the use of our cloud storage has increased by 600,000 customers. The revenue has seen a drop of 1.1% is what we see in the chart and 1.0% in the text, One of them is right. I don't know which one. 1.1% is the right figure. So 1.1% loss in revenue driven by the first quarter. You see that here in the first quarter, we had a drop of 2.2%. In the second quarter, we were on the year-to-year level. Why is that? If we look at the first quarter of '23, comparing it to '22, the first quarter '22 was not affected by the Ukraine war and inflation. And since then, we do see some restriction in the advertisements and this drop in advertising revenue have dropped to 2.2%. And in the quarter 2, we've had the same. And in Q3 and Q4, we are going to see an increase in revenue. We see that already showing up on the horizon, the minus 1.2%, similar to the drop in turnover. And here in the first quarter, we had a strong drop, 10.3% and the second half cost drop -- cost measures have taken place. So we have a plus of 6.2% with the same revenue, and we do see that the second quarter has a positive trend, and that's going to continue in the first. So that is just a little dip after the good growth in corona, that is going to be compensated. Now looking at the business applications. Here, we work with IONOS which is stock listed as well. They are a market leader in many European countries. And beyond that, in the U.S., Canada, Mexico, with a broad product range, targeting 4 small- and medium-sized companies, helping them in digitization and providing websites, e-shops domains or cloud offers, cloud infrastructure, cloud applications, or applications to generate traffic on the Internet. Besides IONOS, we have a number of different brands, which we have as Equations, Strato, InterNetX, Fasthosts, Arsys in Spain, [ home.pl ] in Poland, World4You in Austria, for example. IONOS has seen a good development, 210,000 new customers in the first half of the year to 9.25, driven by growth nationally and internationally. And from that, we see an increase of 12.5% increase with a good growth here due to the business. When going IPO, they saw at 1&1 that they see a 12% growth. We're seeing this now already. IONOS has great opportunity here by better marketing in existing customers, a higher demand for small and medium-sized companies who want to invest in digitization, but mainly by artificial intelligence which will make it possible to build website tools that make the design of the website and optimizing the site and generating traffic will be fully automated. Yesterday, we had a Board meeting saying Microsoft take $30 for an AI assistant for offers. If you build that for your website, it's completely coverageable by AI. We have that. You can take EUR 30 for that as well. And I think that is good business coming up, which, although we've been doing it for a long time, we are opening a new chapter here now, 11% plus EBITDA, EUR 192 million EBITDA, just a little bit below the year before due to the fact that we spent more money on advertising in the first half of the year. And see a bit of a weak market in the aftermarket. Altogether, 4.4% plus in turnover, 490,000 contracts, nearly 28 million contracts now. EBITDA grown, including the buildup of the mobile network. So if you take that, the EBITDA would be to EUR 24 million better, which is quite good. And if it would have 6%, if I calculate that right, EBITDA and depreciations, mainly by the buildup and so the EBIT is a minus of 2.1%. If we calculate the EUR 32 million, which I see is a different, we would have an EBIT of [ EUR 44 million ], which is quite a nice growth. EPS [ EUR 0.48 ]. Included in that, the lower EBIT, which leads to our EUR 0.04 less. And from our minority participation, we have auto results of minus 4% and EUR 0.04 and due to the interest that has a worse financial result for EUR 0.12. So how is it going to carry on? We confirm our forecast until the end of the year, we want to have a revenue of EUR 6.2 billion. EBITDA is going to at the same level as last year, although we have the investment cost for the network. And if you'd add that, it would be a nice growth of EBITDA even in adjusted CapEx at EUR 800 million, driven by the buildup of the mobile network and driven by the extension of the optic fiber network. We are building on hundreds of industrial areas, commercial areas, we are building up the towers and that is going to be part of the CapEx. So I think we are doing quite well. And now I would like to ask Mr. Hartings to present the financial results.

Thank you very much, Mr. Dommermuth, Well, welcome again to our financials for the first half of the year of 2023. I'll present to you the first -- the most important KPIs at group level. Our fee-based customer contracts compared to the 30th of June 2022, increased by 910,000. The advertising-financed free accounts were 240,000 below last year's figures. That's largely due to the conversion of 160,000 accounts to pay accounts. Revenues increased by 4.4%, as indicated to EUR 3.028 billion. Our EBITDA despite an additional EUR 24.7 million higher expenses for the rollout of the 1&1 mobile network increased by 1.9% to EUR 670.1 million. The EBIT due to higher depreciation and amortization in connection with network rollout was EUR 8.8 million or 2.1% below last year's figures and round about EUR 408.5 million. This was due to -- or this is compared to planned cost reductions in this year. Let's speak about the cash flow. First, in order to better harmonize EBITDA on cash flow we adjusted the cash -- the payout of interest from cash flow and short in the cash flow from operating activities like other competitors such as Vodafone do. The cash flow from operating activities due to the decrease of group earnings, a decrease from EUR 522 million to EUR 512 million. The net cash provided by operating activities decreased from EUR 440 million round out where we had phasing effects from Q4 2021 that we disregarded here to the of EUR 97.2 million. It decreased to EUR 237 million. And this was due to payments to telekom that were made in Q3. The cash flow from investing activities decreased due to higher CapEx. The cash flow from financing activities that is much better is due to the increase, largely in particular to the borrowing, and I'll speak about the bridge from EBITDA to free cash flow on the next slide. We start with the EBITDA of EUR 670.1 million, which we have to reduce in the first step by the one-off effects EUR 1.6 million IPO cost of IONOS and other effects totaling EUR 6 million. Then the strongly increased CapEx at EUR 299.2 million due to the investment in the network at 1&1. The tax at EUR 124.5 as well as a contingent payment to Telekom -- Deutsche Telekom of EUR 276.5 million, including the working capital and others of minus EUR 26 million. We arrived at a free cash flow of minus EUR 62.1 million or EUR 127.5 million, after an extra EUR 65.4 million worth of leasing payments. Now let's speak about the balance sheet. The balance sheet, some in the group increased in 2023 from EUR 10.4 billion to EUR 10.77 billion. The main drivers on the asset side was the increase of property, plant and equipment of EUR 120 million. And due to the increased investment in the 5G mobile network and the increase in inventories and deferred expenses due to line rentals and pre-services, contingent contract, the buzzword here. The largest drivers on liabilities was the increase in of the equity by EUR 110 million from the increase of the group result from the first half of the year and the increase of liabilities to banks by about EUR 250 million. The equity ratio decreased by 1 percentage point to 50.2%. And the liabilities to bank net liabilities were EUR 2.394 billion. That takes me to the end of my presentation. Thanking you for your attention. And now, of course, we're happy to take your questions or comments. Thank you.

Well, thank you very much. We'll start our question-and-answer session now. Please use the microphones and we will get started with the session now.

Well, thank you very much for the information. I'm with the Citigroup. I have 3 questions, if I may. The first one is, in the fourth quarter, you see a potential of EUR 140 million to EUR 150 million worth of EBITDA potential for the next few years in consumer business with the background of the advertising business affected by the Ukrainian war. Is that the same or has the outlook been darkened a bit? And the other question is Tele Columbus financing requirements. Can you give us an update on where we stand here? And then the question to Mr. Hartings, where is your focus right now within the group? Is it possibly consumer access to drive business access? Or is it something else? What's your focus right now?

Well, thank you very much. You're right. I anticipated about EUR 140 million EBITDA for next year for the portals, and I can still see them, but you can see them. How come? Well, we changed our report from what do we call it now from controlling to accounting view. And when we spoke about this, we're still in the controlling view and the accounting view shows about EUR 20 million. So -- that means if I spoke, I saw a growth from EUR 120 million to EUR 140 million potential growth, we're now talking about a growth from EUR 100 to EUR 120 million, but that has no impact on the cash. It's just a question of how we show the figures between IONOS and the portal. That's the difference. But I still see the growth, and I think you'll see an extra EBITDA of 20% next year. That is largely due to our good progress with pay accounts. We're getting a lot of pay accounts, and we have a price increase with pay accounts that is well accepted by the customers. And that is why nothing much has to happen before we achieve this. So if you ask me a year from now, where is that now, I won't be saying it's the advertising market unless it completely collapses. We don't expect the advertising market to explode again. We expect in today's environment that we see a growth of 20%. With Tele Columbus, I'm not so well aware of the topic as the Tele Columbus management, but it's true that Tele Columbus has to be refinanced. I think there credit lines run out in a year -- in a year's time, and we deal with it in the Supervisory Board, and we discussed it at the level of the shareholders of how to best do this, but I can't give you anything detailed yet.

Well, then there was the question directed to me where my focus is. I think the entire board is focused on driving all our units as best we can. I'm the CFO now that involves, of course, of financials. We are planning a lot of investment going forward that needs to be financed, of course, and that is one of the focus areas that keep me busy. The question of how to finance these investments. Now we can best do this going forward.

Malcolm from Redburn. Just following up on that financing point, Ralf, just wanted to talk about the balance sheet a bit. I think you have a covenant at 3.5x net debt to EBITDA. Obviously, that was set some to go and interest rates were a lot lower. Just curious to know where you think it's sensible to take leverage at this point in the interest rate cycle? How much more -- I think you're just around about 2x just under at the moment. Where do you think -- where are you comfortable running leverage in this environment?

Yes. So I think our net debt is at EUR 2.3 billion, which is a leverage of EUR 1.8 billion EBITDA. And I would say that's quite a comfortable situation we are in. And I do think that all efforts will be made to get an investment grade and stay as it is defined. And if I look at the plans, I think we'll be able to manage to deliver that. So this is why we try to get the cost of the money minimized. I think what we can say is that we can go up to 2.5x and that would keep us comfortable with the investments for the mobile network and the optic fiber build building. We see the factor going up to 2.5x, but we have to say that we have good funding opportunities with the special infrastructure funding which we could do with Versatel, for example. And we haven't been making use of that so far. And this funding can be structured this year. We have 1&1 Versatel with over 300 commercial areas that we are accessing next year more and even more after that. And this is something that we have to calculate again, again to see what the return on the invest is for these. And if the interest explode in the future, we will be able to build this. But I don't see that coming up. Currently, we expect fundings, which are not expensive and we'll be able to stay in that framework.

You said this 2.5x sort of self-imposed ceiling clear that's probably your covenant level? Or is that where you see leverage heading in the midterm?

I don't think it is a self limitation as a ceiling. It's the plans that we looked at, and that would lead us to that figure. So that's it -- so this is just analyzing the plans that we have.

It's Adam Fox-Rumley from HSBC. I had a question on Versatel, where you're obviously spending a lot more CapEx this year and next year. Presumably, your plans are well worked out and you've got good visibility about where you're going. So are you already at the stage where you might be talking to customers who are prospectively within your network, your new network reach? Or is that something that will come once the business once you actually get there, I guess, the sales cycle time on that kind of business is quite extended. So I wonder if you're already out there with that view.

Well, if I got you right, we are acquiring where we are already present. That is on net and internet, and once we build up new areas, of course, we do a pre-marketing there. We are accessing commercial areas. We are not accessing private homes. And we have got quite a quick return, much quicker, for example, than we would have in private customer business. But the mechanism is the same. First, we start with an analysis of commercial area. What is the existing infrastructure? What customers are there? What's the industries, how big are the companies. So that allows us to analyze whether a commercial area would pay off or not. And once we have seen that it would, we start with premarketing and once that premarketing signals the thresholds that we set ourselves, we start to build up and then, of course, we start to talk to the customers, and then we will do the access, just like we would do in normal business, but here, the APRs are higher, and that gives us a better and faster return. And that's what makes the business interesting. Of course, it's interesting to sell in one building to several customers. Once we are there, of course, then we have great return. The second best is that we sell near net just a couple of yards away from where the main line is and the third less is the new -- completely new commercial areas, starting with a few customers paying for all the costs, and that's why -- that is only the third option. But still, looking at what's usually done in the industry that has a half of the time for the return. I think we in half the time that we would need for private customers. And that's why we're happy to invest there because we do see the cases that in a couple of years, that will lead us to generate high income and the building effort will be 100% presentation in the German commercial areas, and then there will be less building work to be done. So the interesting -- or the point is that we have to have high invest at the moment, but only where we have customers. If we don't have customers, we don't build and we clearly look at not what is just the idea of being sold. But what is there in 6 months' time, in 12 months' time? We've got KPIs for that and that's what the company has to move in. And that's what it sticks to. And so that means we have quite a good model to schedule this.

Can I ask two follow-up. Firstly, on Tele Columbus, so you've spoken a bit about your shareholder relationship, but I think you also have a wholesale agreement with them. I just wondered if you could provide any update on that? Do you plan to start retailing Tele Columbus lines? And is that relationship -- is that decision linked in any way to your -- the decision to invest more equity capital with Tele Columbus? And then second question, coming back to Versatel, can you give us any indication of when you expect Versatel to start generating positive cash flow? And I mean it's difficult. We don't have a lot of visibility over Versatel, but any indication you can give us to where free cash flows can ultimately go for the Versatel business would be really helpful.

Yes. Yes, concerning Tele Columbus, we have a wholesale agreement with them, but that's a small part of our business. And the question of whether we will invest equity tomorrow does not depend on the wholesale agreement. That's an agreement by 1&1. The shareholder of Tele Columbus is the United Internet, we see that as completely separate. Concerning the cash flow with 1&1 Versatel, 1&1 Versatel even today has a positive cash flow. If you look at the core business of 1&1 Versatel. If 1&1 Versatel today sold on net and near net doing business in its core business and limited itself to that, then the cash flow would be positive. The high investments come from new business parks and from the buildup of new antennas. But the core business is already positive in terms of the cash flow. Now let me say, put it in extreme terms, if it was very difficult tomorrow to acquire money if it was too expensive, then the Versatel core business would not be a drain on the group, but it would make a positive contribution to the cash flow, just like IONOS, 1&1, and GMX, WEB.DE.com, et cetera. So in terms of cash flow, with the exception of our expansion, which is ongoing, we have nothing that leads to a negative cash flow.

So I take your point about the core business and the wider business. But taking the wider business as a whole, when does that get to positive cash flow? Can you say can anything?

I can't tell you exactly. I do have to refer to my business plan, but I'd say in about 10 years. So we have a number of years of investment ahead of us. Luckily, we see some opportunities for a number of years to build business parks to develop business parks throughout Germany. But maybe it's not 10 years, maybe it's only 4 to 5 years. I won't give you a wrong figure. And I will provide the figures to you subsequently. We'll check it in our business plan and let you know subsequently, so the investment phase is still pretty long. But due to the ever-increasing income, the income will at one stage be high enough to generate a positive cash flow despite our investments. So the investment phase is like 10 years, but the cash flow will be positive in something like 5 years, but we can look up the exact figures according to the business plan.

Could you make a clarification Versatel in your turnover mix? Do you have IRUs where you have revenue that you book today that will be paid going forward? Or is it all leases that are paid per quarter for fiber optic probably? The second question refers to the bigger picture. United Internet is a holding company to some extent. Could you say something about M&A outlooks, how you see this, particularly the 2 topics of potential consolidation and minority holdings in 1&1? Is there any news in that context?

Well, when do we see a positive cash flow that is in 2028 for Versatel? So all right, 5 years weren't all that far off. Okay. No, we are not planning any IRUs. That was a thing of the past, we purchased Versatel. And with the old companies are used for a commonplace and we had it for a while, but this has been completely a band for a few years in our company, no more IRUs. And the outlook, I can't tell you anything about this. The hosting market might continue to consolidate, but told you earlier that I'm optimistic vis-a-vis the IONOS business that I'd be more on the buyer side than the seller side today. You might say that I'm over enthusiastic with my business, but I think we're looking at a very bright future here, and I wouldn't get out of this business now. That will be wrong now. I think I don't see that we would leave hosting over the next few years. I can't say that you should never say never. But it's nothing that we're foreseeing. And the minority shareholder of 1&1 that actually itches me as well when I see the 1&1 share price. But I'd say it's unfair towards the shareholders. We bought back a lot, there'd be very little free float left. Yes, we could do that and optimize. But I'd say it's a bit unfair because the shareholders -- we didn't ask them when we decided to build our own network. And I'd say it's a bit unfair to say, okay, the share price went down now we optimize financially, you might have a different answer. But as an entrepreneur, I'd say, our objective is to reward our shareholders and to see that they say at some stage, what's a good investment, not that they say, okay, we invested at the wrong moment because we were pushed out of the share at some point or the investment.

Coming back to Martin's question on Tele Columbus. So I appreciate that you're not directly running the company. You're a large shareholder of 40%, and it looks like it's a lot of money, like high hundreds of millions of euros, given its current leverage and EBITDA trajectory. I mean, are you willing to be diluted as the current sort of 40% economic interest something that you want your very keen to retain? Are you open-minded on all outcomes for Tele Columbus? Can you give us an idea just your broad thinking on the stake and how you look at it, would be great?

Well, I think -- we're at the very beginning of this process. The packs aren't yet on the table. What a financing scheme could look like, where the additional capital will be necessary or not. How much capital will be needed because over the next few years, we will migrate from cable to fiber optic requiring a lot of investment. We have to take a closer look at that. We haven't taken the decision yet. In principle, the idea was that when we to go over Tele Columbus, we spoke of a corridor somewhere between 25% and 49%. And that we wanted to acquire because that has something to do with the voting rights. And I don't think there's any change in that corridor. We're at 40%. Now it depends a bit on the conditions, whether we stay at 40%, whether we go beyond that to say 30% will be in off as well. We'll have to see. But we will remain somewhere between the 25% and 49%. We certainly don't want to take over the company because then we also would have to consolidate the debt. We certainly don't want to do that. So certainly, the upper limit is 49.9%. We only -- we don't want to drop below 25.1% because that would limit our rights in terms of governance. So in between that or inside that corridor, we'll have to see what is optimal for us.

I don't see any other question. There's one here in the front.

Thank you for the presentation. I have -- some questions Simon Stippig, Warburg Research. The first question would be on versatile. Here, you said when you -- when we were in the one-on-one meeting, you said that the fiber optic cables are built now to connect the antennas. I would be interested in the number of cable being in the ground without the antenna. And they're not active yet. And the service is not provided by your partners and in Versatel. How important do you see the buildup speed compared to your competitors mainly? And a brief point on the consumer applications. Do you see this as a strategically important area for United Internet? And I already also saw that you have taken a loan of EUR 240 million in the first half of the year 2023. Could you explain on the conditions, terms, maturity and interest costs? And the long-term perspective, capital allocation medium to long term, how do you see that with respect to your shareholders? Do you want to buy back shares, pay out dividends? Maybe that's not a topic as yet, but in the long term, that would be interesting to know.

Yes. Let me start with the last point. We pay dividends as of today, EUR 0.50. We've paid more in the past. I think as soon as we are more clear on the future cost of the network, building frequency, purchasing, we can rethink that and consider would be a good depth for the company and say what range do we have for the payouts. But for that, we need a clearer picture on how we can purchase more frequencies. We can calculate the cost of the antenna today for national roaming since last night on the long run as well, but we've got one unknown variable, which is the purchase of the frequencies. And moving forward, and Mr. Hartings is going to answer the pre last question.

How much optical fiber have we built? I think for the end of the year, 1,500, and unfortunately, they are not at the 1,000 sites that we have. I think we are 1,100 at the moment. So that is sites that are relocated, which will only be connected in '24, '25 with the targets built up on different sites, and we build the fiber to make good for some time some of them are disconnected or elsewhere. And prospectively, in 1, 2 years' time, we will be able to connect them. That's the plan. The speed of the building, I think is in the market that we are at the moment where we have the land grabbing phase. It's important. Just to give you an impression, we have 70 commercial areas last year. This year, we're going to have 300. And over the next year, we're going to have 700. So we are wrapping up things up there, but we have to be able to market them as well because I do think -- and this is a good thing, we don't have to have a certain amount to scale the business, but we are doing as much as is economically feasible and that we can cover at reasonable prices and how much of that can be market by our team. We are increasing capacities. And yes, I would like to have more -- I always want more, no question. But to be realistic, we have to do what we're doing at the moment, and we're increasing that. We're taking a big step this year from 70 to I think it's 308 this year. Next year, we're going to do passed the 700 mark, and you ask how important is the consumer application business. Maybe I'll be able to tell you that in a better way in 2, 3 years down the line. That's a business that we've been having for many years, which is profitable, which leads little capital next year, 20% result that we expect. But from strategic importance, it's going to be a question whether we were able to get eSIM into the applications. So you have to see that today, there's many users of our applications using them every day and an eSIM can be has to be activated by an app. And our is can be activated from mail.com with the account directly. So we've got your address. We've got your bank data in many cases. So that by pushing a button, you can swap to our mobile network and whether that is going to work well or not is something that we have to try out, but I do see great opportunities there, and I see this in the Far East, how simply from a shopping application, they can do the eSIM card and clear it activated, not saying I want to eSIM them when you get a letter with that letter, you get a digit to type in a password and you download from the shop, no in the on the net, and you just hit your button and then the whole thing goes automatically. How many mobile users do we have in GMX WEB.DE? 27 million. And take 25 million of these in Germany, that is something 25 million applications where I can switch, which I can switch on the hit of a button. I want to try that. And if that works well, the portals, if they're going to get more important strategically, if it's not working, then they are -- they make profit but they don't have so much synergies in the group. They are then more panned out in other areas and the other portals have synergies. But the main synergy is that by the portals. We sell some cards as of today, a couple of thousand every month. And if we can have the directly eSIM to be activated directly from the portal, that is our dream, so to say.

Then the final question was about the new credit. It was a loan that we had with a duration of 3, 5 and 7 years that we could choose from a margin of roughly 1.5%. And basically all governance around it. So that's a very classical instrument that we use there. Okay. Are there any other further questions? I can't see any other questions right now. Let me thank you for your interest and your participation. I hereby conclude this conference. I would like to invite you to pizza, cake and a coffee in the full year. Thank you very much.