VGP NV (VGP) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Opel site, it's got before I start with all the other things which I have prepared for you. But we bought the Opel sites back in 2022, I think and -- yes, in 2022, the end of 2022. It was not an easy market, and we bought the site for a reasonable price, and we negotiated with Opel that we would have exclusivity on a data center development for the whole site, whatever there is still big parts of the Opel sites which we didn't buy because they are deemed to be developed for other purposes than what we normally do. So we didn't touch on that one. There were also some parts which had big heritage conservation problems as we see it. So we bought what we think is the real industrial heart of the of the company out. And by the way, Opel is still producing [indiscernible] right next to us. They just have got the Astra. They make a new Astra. And yesterday, we had what the Germans called the retest. Our role building is ready the thing is still hanging there. We had also more than 100 people here yesterday. I also had a speech here yesterday, and Opel has got a lot of plans, new developments with Leap motors, which they own in China. And I'm a very big believer in the reindustrialization of Europe. That's also why we are standing here. Now for this building, we've done really very much our best to make it very green. We have all kinds of features built in this building. It doesn't look like it because it looks like concrete, but we have the Union system inside. Thanks to that, we saved 155 tons of concrete more than 100 truckloads. In total, we saved more than 1,500 tons of CO2. In this building, thanks also to a lot of recycled materials. And I think okay? We are aiming for a DGNB Gold certification. We are actually aiming for a platinum, and we are fairly concerned -- we are fairly convinced that we're going to get it. But gold is -- I said gold because gold is probably the only metal you can win by using concrete. When we did this transaction with Opel, we are also -- you can see on the bands behind afterwards, I'm going to show on the next thing a little bit, a little video. We are also going to build than new engineering and design building, which is coming right in front of us here where they're going to do really R&D things for the next future. More than 8,000 people are going to work here on this site. We have signed a 22-year lease agreement with them. We've got a mother company guarantee from Stellantis for EUR 300 million. We've really tried our best to make this a very institutional product, which fits very well within the VGP thing, and the gift, which came with it is these brownfield sites, and we have many of them, they come with a couple of very big advantages. You have very good schooled people, technical people. So for future production purposes, it's ideal, but you also have got very big connections to infrastructure. And the site -- this site has a 112-megawatt connection today. 7 acres of our land is now reserved for Amprion for a new division plant, which they are permitting now, which is going to come in the future, from which we have reserved another 140 megawatts coming on in a couple of years' time. It will take probably longer than what they promise because it always takes longer, but we're prepared for it. And there is a power plant on the site, which you have seen that power plant makes now heat that we have a project together with [indiscernible], the operator of that power plant to turn it over into gas turbines and then we can almost unlimited because there is a huge cost connection. We can go and bridge our way to grid connection through the gas plant, and we can scale up our data center plans right next to it. I'm very weary to talk about data centers because nowadays, everybody feels like is the new data center specialist. I am definitely not, but I will explain you a little bit the way forward and what we are doing. On the agenda today, and I'm sorry, my people told me, I have 2 hours to talk to you. So by the time you follow sleep, I'll probably stop but not earlier. We have Unlike our reporting cycle, which is what you're all looking at every half year or every quarter of the year, you're looking at which numbers have we prepared, inside of VGP. We are a family company. We have a very long-term vision and a very long-term strategy. And in that very long term strategy, we've been preparing ourselves for what we think the market is going to do. And the first thing which we did or what we are doing over the last year is I have 500 employees almost at VGP. Germany is my biggest market, and we have been trying to hire as much as possible real good engineering people. And we built all of our buildings, also this one where you are at the moment sitting in, and hopefully, it doesn't fall down, but we are building it all ourselves. So that doesn't mean we have blue-collar people. But we have the capability to just divide to engineer the whole thing, to divide the whole thing up in all of its components and then to orchestrate the whole construction side of it. We've done that for Zalando, and you've seen how be loved, we were in Zalando. I think you had -- we always -- you will see they have made videos with us, et cetera. We have that with all of our customers. We try really to be a one-stop shop for them and to prepare for it. And we see that our market is changing. We have, of course, a lot of standard buildings. And I'm not so in to say that it's the bulk -- the bulk is the standard buildings, but we see more and more automatization, robotization and we think that is going to accelerate with AI. And there, it is a lot easier to build the building around the system. So the buildings of the future, they are becoming they must be really modern. They must have very modern features. And for that, we have been preparing a lot. And that is -- we think that demand is changing at the moment we are working on a lot of new deals, which are buildings Zalando type, what you are seeing today. We have a new phase of development growth. You know that we buy all of our land plus subject to having the right permit. This means we only pay for it. when we have a permit, which gives us the certainty that we can construct on it. This doesn't, however, mean that we can construct immediately on the bulk of our sites, yes, but many of the sites of brownfields like this, we first need to demolish, we need to decontaminate. We need to do some other things around it, build new infrastructure. And at this moment in time, a bit like in 2020 or 2019, when Zalando came online, when Munich came online with [indiscernible] projects at that time really big, development comes in waves. And we are at the point where now we really have a very big, and they call it cohort nowadays. They use the Roman titles from before. I feel like if I'm going to war. But it isn't. So we have really a lot of landmark sites, and I will show and introduce some of them to you because you cannot reproduce them. I mean you can't multiply them aside like Russelsheim is very unique. So close to Frankfurt airport, with all this connection of electricity, it's something to never give away anymore if we can. And then we have been working also over the last 5 years, and that's been with the shock. It came with a shock in '22 when the war in Ukraine started and our biggest joint venture partner, Allianz, with who we still have a very good relationship, by the way, they said, yes, but we have a problem. We can't invest anymore in real estate because we have already too much in our balance sheet. So we started to think how should we mitigate this because it's really our system. We grow very fast, and you will -- you know the numbers, we really grow very fast, but also we're going to grow fast this year also. And by recycling through joint venture transactions, we were always able to recycle that capital in the next investment phase and in the land bank, which made sense. Now we've tried to move away a little bit from dependency on single players, and we want to become more like, I don't want to take the words in my mouth, but like a diversified investment thing where we sell our assets or we bring our assets inside of a vehicle, where there's multiple investors inside where online -- lining that up a little bit like as if it was a fund. That's where we are working at, at the moment. We have several work streams. You -- I have told you about them in our results go, and that's ongoing. And I think that's the third thing. We need these to be able to fund all of the growth which we have in front of us. And we think that we are very close to be able to say all is organized, we can go forward. That's the new inflection point. How do we convert growth into earnings? Well, we are in the first place a developer. The developer is not it's not hear. So -- but we have 4.3 million square meters of just the ground floor embedded in our land bank. On top of that comes mezzanines, what you have seen today in Zalando, mezzanines, office, extra, et cetera. So it's probably more like 5 million square meters. But that is a footprint of what we -- embedded in the land bank of what we can still develop on land, which we already own today. On the investment side, it's our contracted rental income. And everybody always looks at us as this weird animal. But we are actually -- we're a developer. And underneath of it, we are feeding you could call it a REIT-like type of thing, and we like very much the recurrent income because it gives us a stable basis if things don't go as fast as we think or things go a little bit different than we think. We still can rely on our contracted rental growth, and it's scaling very quickly. It's going up very quickly. And then we have a third leg to stand on, and that's our renewable energy. We have solar now really at scale. Over the first 6 months, we had EUR 7.6 million of gross income from the renewable energy, and it's growing very fast. And we are now investing big time in battery storage, especially here in Germany, but also in other countries, we have a lot of projects ongoing. They're very high yielding. Of course, batteries don't have a very long lifetime. So it's also -- you need to take a look at it. But as far as it's on paper, it looks fantastic. But we'll see, and we have now all of our projects are coming online. And then there is a third thing I would like to take you through and that's the data centers. Now we are not a data center developer. We're not a specialist in data centers. We just happen to have land plots we have invested in, in the past, which are extremely well fit to develop a data center on. And I wanted to find somebody we can partner with, which has all the other things. people who have experience, people who have Renown, people who have already built because many of these data center specialists when I actually started talking to them and everybody run through my door because everybody wanted to have Russelsheim time 95% of them never ever built a real data center. They just knew a lot about it. But -- so we've signed an MoU with a very reputable party. And they are developing data centers on a big scale, they have customers. They have hyperscalers. They have they have done all the mistakes in the past and corrected them. They know what to do, what not to do. And we are going to make a 50-50 joint venture with them, through which we can -- because it's a very big ticket. Also, if we do all these things, we can dilute over time and take other investors inside as we mirror completion or as it is completed, so that we have a more flexible way of holding on to these assets and by not having a 50% share like we have in everything else necessarily. It's our ambition, but we will see how it goes. So that is -- we have identified our first opportunities and now we're partnering for scale. Now first on the growth inflection point. So we see that demand is changing what the tenants needs. I wanted to show you, Zalando today because it's a very fine example of how the world is changing and how everything they try to automize and it goes a lot faster than with human hence, the output of these warehouses are incredible. I mean when Amazon puts our robotics center in Frankenthal, and we looked at the output, which they had inside of that building packages per hour. And we looked at the same size of building, which a big German retailer had built without this automation, well, it was 10x more. So they could do 10x more packages than our send out both e-commerce, just by doing the robotics and the thing. So we think that, that is the way forward. These investments are huge. What you have seen today in Zalando is an investment which makes it impossible for them to leave only if they go bankrupt, which I don't believe. But I think it's a very good group. So for us, it's also important to do these very big things with absolute security and with very good companies, which we know that they are -- that we are in safe hands and that they have a very solid business plan. We see that in our location is for me always everything. It's always been everything. And we have now a couple of locations. We have many locations where we are negotiating these type of things on investments very nice long-term leases, all 15 or 20 or 25 years, which we are going to deploy. And those sites, I named a couple of them, but Russelsheim you've seen here, Hagen is not far away. It's in the Ruhrgebiet. There we bought a paper mill, also huge amount of electrical power available. We are now negotiating 2 very big lease agreements there. But we have Verona coming online after 8 years. We have La Naval coming online this year, Velizy. We have signed our first lease agreement. It's right -- it's 13 kilometers away from the Eiffel Tower right next to the [indiscernible] site. We have Nurnberg, which is a beautiful site, which was a Siemens office campus. It's right next on the city ring in buyer and there is nothing that is really -- it's impossible to develop something. We bought it 5, 6 years ago. We had all the time rental income from Siemens. They are now going out. And we are in very advanced negotiations for a tenant who will take the whole site. We went with him to the city council because that's also something which is very difficult when you come and want to buy Russelsheim, the city council, they say, yes, but we don't want only data centers there or we don't want only logistics that we want you to commit to this and this and this and this, which we can do and which we do and we see promise, and we have a very good track record in it. So that's why we have been able to buy all these sites also, where we have [indiscernible], we have Vila Nova de Gaia Porto, years of land assembly. And it's not like we go from 6 months to 6 months. All of that sits in our balance sheet at acquisition costs. I bought Russelsheim for EUR 75 million, 70 hectares, Frankfurt, just so you know, that's where we were. VGP's capital platform is broadening. So I already explained that. We have EUR 3.6 billion of gross asset value that can be transacted since 2022, we transacted an enormous amount of money, we recycle EUR 2.2 billion, which we reinvested mostly in our pipeline. You know how much dividend we pay. So all the rest goes in the pipeline and pay back our debt. So neither the land bank or the capital recycling is really new. It's just the phase where we are on that's different. We are prepared for a big leap. Hence, also, I wanted to give you an update your all I assume most of you investors inside of VGP so that you know at which point we are standing. I'm going to go through a little bit the secular tailwinds. Now you will never believe it -- you saw it at Zalando. Robotics has taken over. It's going so much faster. But it's really getting into scale today where when I started back in 2002 with building the first logistic warehouses, they were -- the specifications were roughly the same, but now the load-bearing capacity of the floors has gone up tremendously. The flatness of the floor has gone up tremendously. The installations have gone up tremendously. The legislation around green and adds everything with it. We have solar panels and all the roofs have most of them is green roof now. But now it also needs to be able to really have these robotic systems inside. And we have them in many, many places already, oops, our thing fell out. We have there are many, many places already. But what is -- what really surprised me is we did a little study on how much robots we have actually in Europe and by 10,000 manufacturing employees, Western Europe is the most robotized space in the world, more than the Chinese. Of course, the Chinese they have 2 million robots running around, but by a number of people which are working in the warehouse, we are the most robotized. Now yesterday, I had a very interesting discussion with the CEO of Opel, and there are 2 people of open here today they're standing there. If you have asked questions for them, you can attack them later on. But he told me about Leap Industries, and we asked him why do you have these dark factories in China. He say, well, one of the big problems in China, it's actually different than we think. People are getting very quick, a lot older and the young people, they don't want to work in the factories anymore. So they have really a problem in hiring people there despite the whole cohort. So they need to go more and more in automation. So everybody has its own drivers. For us, it's really -- we want to be prepared for it and you see the countries where there is a lot of automation in Europe, in most of those countries, VGP is very active today. It's raising the specification of the building. You've clearly seen that. It's a bit special. The generics still shell is for racking and forklifts, but we do now more and more purpose-built envelope. And that is really build-to-suit. It's true. But we see that these buildings are very versatile and they can easily be used in a traditional way. but then they can easily be transferred into another robotic system. The economics are enormous. It's really dwarfed the shell, what Zalando did, also the same with Amazon in Frankenthal when we built robotics, the -- what the intralogic -- intralogistic things, which are inside or a lot more expensive, a lot bigger investment than our building and the location is so important for them because it's from here out from here it's so easy to transport to everybody. It's so central in Germany. So it's really things which we should look at. And going forward, that's where we think our new demand will come from in the first place. We see a lot of retrofits happen but only into modern stock, the older buildings, most of them, they don't have the right height. They don't have the right floor. They don't have -- you can't put any of the MAP necessary on the roof. You've seen in Zalando, everything that is fresh air everywhere. It's cooled. It's really -- there is a lot of technique around it. You need to be able to put it somewhere. So it needs to be more than buildings. We think that's going to drive our growth going forward. And automation and robotics are one thing. Defense, you all know how it looks like in today's world. We -- defense was completely taboo a couple of years ago for us. We would never do a defense player. That has changed. That has changed quite a lot. 1.5% of the GDP, the NATO wants to invest 5% of the GDP into defense. But of those 5%, 1.5% is into infrastructure, hence, buildings. And we see a lot -- we have a lot of tenants already which are doing. We have the Bundeswehr, the German Army twice in our buildings in Magdeburg and in Koblenz. We have -- we are building for GE, which is doing defense systems in Bucharest. We have Magna Steyr, which is making vehicles in Austria, army vehicles in our buildings. And then we have Isar Aerospace, which is a dual purpose. It's our answer to Elon Musk's Space X. We're building the new factory. Actually, we delivered it today to them in Munich. And they are backed by NATO. NATO took a big investment inside. They put through their funds, so big investment insight, and there is others, which we are negotiating with. So that has become something which is also driving growth inside of our thing. Then we have the supply chain restructuring everybody is questioning me about the German market, yes, in the car industry and how is it going to go. But we have, in Germany, a lot of demand actually from Chinese companies who are quickly taking over if they're not careful. And then the German spirit is not that. These people are really very inventive and they want to go ahead. They're very lean and mean if they want to, and I'm a big believer in this it's still our biggest growth motor despite all the other big countries where we're in, Germany is still the biggest growth model. And supply chain restructuring, I mean we have 10 groups, EUR 48 million of rents or 10% of our total contracted rental income a little bit less and with [indiscernible], for which we have built here a huge factory. Hyundai Mobis, we build in Pamplona, the new factory to produce batteries for the car industry cross May. It's a Chinese company. They're making plastic molding machinery, huge investment. We have [indiscernible], we have Leer, yes. We have a lot of others still in place. So in total, in advanced manufacturing, it's 30% of our total income. And it's a very strong argument to do this because they are very long-term tenants. And we -- it reduces the local authorities because they bring employment, they bring renewal. They bring new investments inside of the town. They attract people. So we have EUR 150 million across 96 tenant groups in 13 countries, which are related to construct to production. It's a very big growth group. And then lately, we see e-commerce during the years where there was a pandemic, they had taken up too much space that's consumed now. And we see all of them now, where we have a lot of demand from e-commerce again. And in Europe, the e-commerce and distribution represents about 19% of the total trade volume, 19.5%. We have 19% of VGP's rent. But if we look at the U.K. and the U.S., where the penetration of e-commerce is a lot higher, it also says, in my opinion, a little bit about where it's going to go through in the next year. It's going to be -- we see it growing a lot at the moment. I have some pictures to convince you, but I think you are convinced after seeing Zalando this morning, we have KraussMaffei in Munich, it's full of robotics. We have BMW, their R&D facility. They have more than 100 robotics inside. Zalando is fully automated. We are active ads, but we also have Park, Notino, Inter Cars. All of them have robotics inside and all of them are very much dependent on it. So our land bank why we can capture that demand. We have a very big land bank, all top locations, I would say, we try to really buy the top locations. We have -- what is under construction is not so important, just that it's 76% pre-let, but we have also a lot of electrical power. And we, in Germany, have also the license to sell energy in Germany, if you want to sell energy, you need a special license. You just can't go and sell energy. So we have a license we can buy and sell energy and we do that. We trade on green energy. So all of our customers, they become green energy from us, which we deliver them, we buy it in, we sell it to them. They think that is how it goes. And most of it, of course, we buy in from ourselves and from our own generated energy on our rooftops. And if we can't deliver it, we are now going to store it in batteries and then release it in the grids, we can play with it. That's what we are going to do. And then what's more important, what I already said, it's our in-house capabilities. We are very much involved in permitting. We are very much involved in trying to optimize all of our constructions. Together with Opel, for example, we have many sessions about Hub to create this building so that it's really green. We have a lot of technical design capabilities. We do ourselves in procurement. We have a very good feel in every market for how much something can cost. And with AI, you can even play with that a little bit more. There's a lot of opportunities coming for us. And then we do ourselves a construction, and we keep long-term ownership. And I'm an absolute convinced person that we need to keep on doing that. We need to sell sometimes maybe to refresh a couple of these things inside of our portfolios. But the biggest -- iconic locations, I'm an absolute believer you cannot just buy them back in the market. They're going to be -- if you sell them, they lost forever and they belong to somebody else. And there is so many properties inside of our portfolio, which are leased 10 years ago, and the lease just keeps on going. And meanwhile, the lease level has gone up tremendously. There is a lot of hidden value in that also when it comes to renewal. I have some more examples. So BMW, it's really worthwhile. If you look on YouTube and you asked for the Persona facility, there is a lot of videos about their battery development capabilities. It's really very impressive. Amazon, we have them in 5 parks now. We are negotiating with them on a whole bunch of new lease agreements. But the next time we do a Capital Markets Day, I will try to get you inside of Frankenthal in the robotics center because you have robots running around on 3 different levels, screwing the cells up under pallets and then driving around with the pure everywhere. It has really been a nightmare to do that, but it's a very, very nice investment. Inter Cars, you can see it here. All of these things are just fully automized. It's Ecotec system. It's huge. It's 60,000 square meters, and it's in Bokarest of all places. It's really very modern. It's aerospace, I already told you about Hyundai, I told you about. And then we have a lot of these conveyor driven last mile things, which is DPD and DHL, which in Lisbon, both have their headquarters on the same plot, which is very finally the 2 biggest competitors sit on the same plot, both owned by us right next to each other. I'm curious how they do it with their employees. Yes. So that's the demand side. Now I'm coming to the ingredient side why we wouldn't be able to capture this demand. And in my head, it's technical competence, but in the first place, real estate is and remains everything is about location, location, location and the technical features. That's why our magazine is called location to the third. And I'm going to show you some land positions which we have just now really mature and which we think is fantastic. And we -- on which on all of them, we have current ongoing lease negotiations. You are here, Russelsheim, Frankfurt, bought it from Stellantis. If besides what we are constructing here, which is 10 hectares, we can still develop at least 230,000 square meters, and that's without the data center. That's just what we are going to do without the data center. Data center is not computed inside of any of this thing. I left it on purpose out. Velizy in Paris. We have signed our first lease agreement. It's completely demolished. It was a very big R&D side. It's really very close. Hagen and Dortmund is -- we are demolishing it now. We are signing our first big lease agreement in 2 or 3 weeks. We're finalizing it. It's a very big one. and we are negotiating the second one. And these 2 lease agreements will take the whole site. It will be signed by the end of the year for both things. Ranova Bilbao, we are just now having hedged a bit of trouble in getting the final building permits. We just started with the infrastructure. Audience is coming online next year. It's in Denmark. Also in Denmark, we have Gravenorth, for which we also have a tenant for the whole park which is right at the entrance of Copenhagen, the location is just stunning. It's really fantastic. We have Nurnberg, I already talked to you about. Anyway, we have so many -- these are just the examples which are for me, the most iconic and now the freshest. But of course, we have a land bank of 10.4 million square meters. So there is construction ongoing in a lot of other places also. This is really, I think, where the future value of EGP sits in its land bank, which, again, I want to repeat it once more stands in our book at this acquisition value. So we don't at its present value, I would say, because it's acquisition value plus what we have invested in site, in site of infrastructure and permitting, et cetera, which changes the bid. And as I said, these land plots there are positions that will be very difficult to recreate today, if you want to buy it. I mean, we've bought this one very good, and you need to be a bit lucky also when buying this and is just this -- the market today is a bit more favorable towards people with capital. That's true. Because it's not so easy. But I'm so convinced about this landlord and everybody seems to be. But it's not only that Velizy, La Naval and Nurnberg I just wanted to show once. It's -- I don't think it's so easy to compete on these landlords with us. If we are here, there is nobody around us here in Frankfurt, if there is a big demand, which is Frankfurt related, we can say, "Hey, I can deliver it also." It's difficult. There is no vacancy in these top markets. Yes. And that scarcity is turning -- of course, it's a very big advantage commercially. From acquisition and permitting to tenant engagement, we -- we really have -- we can pull out of the drawer in permit and say we will adapt it for you. We can start construction. We are working on it. We have our permits in Verona. And also to give you an idea of how we how we work with risks inside of a land acquisition thing because many people buy land and then they have to go through -- we always -- especially with the brownfield, you need to be very careful because you need to have in the first place an agreement sort of formal with the local authority because they can just stop you whenever if they don't -- if they're not convinced about what you're going to do, so that's very important. But Verona, I signed when we started in Italy in 2018, and the payment was conditioned to having the building permits and the infrastructure build, which is going to be the end of this year. So all these years, we've had it. All this year, the price was fixed. There is no indexation, and we are now buying it at the price of 2018, EUR 50 per square meter, including infrastructure. I think it's a very nice one. And there are a lot of examples like that. But in the tenant engagement, as we said, the Velizy,Hagen, Nurnberg, Regillo, we already signed our first lease agreement. There is a lot of demand, and then we are starting construction now here in Russelsheim, what you can see and La Naval, infrastructure has started and we refurbished the first 2 buildings. So -- and then we are going to build the new ones. It's moving together. It's well paced because we think we are going to be able now to do all these closings with our new and which will release a lot of capital closings with the people of -- with our new system of East Capital, closings with our new thing with RM. By the way, the people from his capital are also here, they're sitting down in the back. So if you have a nasty question for them, you can. And it has become executable at once. That's what we are really convinced about. On the -- I'm going to drink sorry, unfortunately, on water. Our joint venture system until now was one partner takes it all in a certain region. It's very difficult to work with 2 partners, take it all in a certain region because then you are getting conflicts on yes, but I want that thing, not him, that is not okay. I want a thing. So that is the discussions we have been having in the past. So going forward, we have now tried to line up 2 new platforms, one which is focused more on Eastern European things, but also with some Western Europe has an exposure to it. So it's a mix over the thing. One which is more Western European, that's make exposure. But we have 140 parts, and we have divided them up into exclusivities, which we have given to each of them. So everybody knows. And then it's not going to be one investor, but both vehicles are going to be a multiple investor vehicle, which is expandable. And it's quite sizable what we want to do. So we want to really go from transactions to a real capital platform. If you want to, I hate to say, but it's a little bit we don't reinvent the warm water. It's a little bit towards what Prologis has been doing in the past. We need to do a little bit the same, I think, because our growth is so big that we are going to converge like that. By the way, what a nice transaction they did with heated because it's the Americans buying us again, and I would have loved to see David doing something else, but it's a good indication of how people think about us and about our valuations also. I'm not so sure about this slide. The numbers say always everything. The sentiment is a bit difficult at the moment, I think. But what is true is that in the first half and more in the second quarter than the first quarter, the investment activity in direct investments in logistics and in industrial has been taken off. And it's quite a little bit -- it's quite a bit higher than it has been even before the pandemic. So during '21 and '22, of course, there was a lot. But this -- in the first half year, EUR 18.8 billion of transactions happened in the European market, and that is huge. That's been good. So a 13% year-on-year, and it's already the second year that the first half also increases. And so there is appetite. We will see the appetite frictions with how Trump goes with his Epic Fury, but let's hope it just stops at some point. And what we are very convinced of is that this recycling model, which we have created back in 2016 works very well. It's -- we have done since 2022, EUR 3.5 billion of closings. We have recycled out of that EUR 2.2 billion, which we've all reinvested inside of the land bank, and that is I always see myself as a farmer, a farmer first needs to do the land preparation that needs to see these crops and then the harvest comes at the end. Well, I think we are now in the middle of, it's all growing, and it's getting ready to be harvested. Until now, it was in [indiscernible] things. We have now a lot of assets standing in our balance sheet, which we can transact. We also are ready for that. And the next phase is to really do, as I already said, multiple scalable investment vehicles, which we are working on in a very high tempo at the moment. It enables us to recycle faster to broaden our investor base, which is something which we've learned in 2022. It's not good to be dependent on one person. You need to think. And yes, the economics are retained. Our asset management fee grows a lot. You will see later on our recurrent income base grows a lot. It's our fastest growing at the moment. it's a broader ecosystem of investment vehicles, something like, as I said, and I don't want to compare myself to anybody else, but it's more skewed towards what, for example, Prologis has been doing. Now this is where we stand and now how do we convert growth because we're going to grow a lot into earnings. On the call, which we did, Piet had made a graph about our development yields and about where we, on average, are yield on cost. And our yield on cost is including everything. It's the land development cost. It's our own team, which invested inside. It's capitalized interest. It's -- it's the whole construction costs, it's the financing cost, it's everything. And on average, we are developing at 8.7% yield. And then it goes from 6.2% the lowest to over 11%, the highest. And that's depending on in which jurisdiction we are and which clients we have. But we feel that we're in a very good place there. So we have a healthy margin. If you look at it, we have a 30% on average margin towards where the valuations are today. And we have -- our recurrent earnings space is growing. And yes, it's -- the property development. That's our -- that's what we really are. We like to create new things. I like to do -- I like to think about all new things all the time. So I need to have a lot of great people around me to stop me from being too wild in my imagination, but that's what we like to do, developing new things. But that's very cyclical. We have land and suddenly it comes altogether and then it's like Munich in 2021. We had a huge profit but out of our developments, but that's cyclical. And the other one, the recurrent income that's linear. It's growing all the time underneath. And that's why it's becoming more and more important. And the recurrent income is recurring, we have EUR 134.8 million EBITDA in the first half year. And this year, it was 72% of the group EBITDA. So it's a good mantras, a good cushion to sleep on, and then the rest is extra income. Now this I already said, the rent that is already contracted, where we have EUR 69 million on our current projects under construction side. So they're all coming to maturity. This building will be delivered in this -- I think we will be ready by May next year. but we will deliver it in August. So it will start generating rental income from August of next year. And all the others, which are here, which we have driven through is also, by the way, generating rental income. It's a sale and lease back to auto and it goes until when we start the moles. And then the renewable energy, yes, that's committed projects, and they are already funded. On the property development side, so on our developments, this is what I already said. We own 10.4 million land bank. It's a big land bank. We can construct probably 5 million square meters and it 4.3 million is the footprint. And the capital expenditure, but that's a very theoretical number because it depends very much on which type of buildings we're going to do on, it is roughly EUR 2.7 billion for also theoretical rental value of EUR 311 million, which we can still contract on this land bank, that's with average rental prices of today, that's with average what we have -- what we have in the portfolio. So taking into account whether we're going to go towards more Zalando buildings or to more standard buildings. And it's not taking into account one single data center, which is a total different economic. I'll come to it later. That's something completely different. So we have so far deployed between EUR 500 million to EUR 750 million a year. How it is funded? Well, it's mostly funded through our cash recycling model. And we -- 2027, 2028 and 2029 are going to be -- if all goes well, harvest years for us. That's the year when we are going to offload a lot of things in the -- from our balance sheet into our joint ventures and going to start up a lot of new pre-let new things on our mini pre-let new things on our land bank. And yes, as I said, the EUR 311 million, it's embedded in the land bank, but that is a very theoretical number. If we take on average that what we develop a year, then we could say we have a land bank for the coming 4 to 5 years, but the land bank is something which you need to keep nurturing all the time and to keep investing in all the time because not all countries grow at the same speed, not all the regions grow at the same speed and you need to be able to just react flexible with where you are and what you do. The second is our income-generating assets. Now our income-generating assets for EUR 420 million is generating cash today. So let's say, EUR 35 million amount of rental income comes in. And then EUR 37.9 million of rental income starts paying rent in the next 12 months. They are signed. It's under construction. We are going to deliver. They start paying when we deliver. And then there is a EUR 297 million potential out of the little vacancy, which we have and the pipeline to let, which then the total rental potential goes up to EUR 800 million. By the way, we've crossed the EUR 500 million line today. We, at VGP, has more than EUR 0.5 billion of rental income, including its joint ventures at 100%. EUR 0.5 billion of rental income on a yearly basis. Yes, this means that a big part is already contracted, EUR 502 million, as you can see here, and yes, it's the recurrent investment EBITDA in the annualized, it's EUR 232 million of the EUR 293 million signed. So that's pro rata for what we own. It is already income-generating. So it's more and more. The REIT part of our business is becoming more and more important. It's -- there is a big cushion on the need of what we do. And then the asset management, it's not very much looked at, but it's a silent grower behind. As we do more and more joint venture vehicles, we also have asset management fees. In 2020, it represented EUR 14.7 million on an annualized basis. In 2025, it was already EUR 33.7 million. And with what we think we're going to grow, we extrapolated it to roughly EUR 80 million to EUR 100 million in 2030. That is where we want to grow through with our asset management platform as we own more and more and more assets. And so it's property and facility management fees partly that's paid by our tenants and then it's asset management fees, and that's paid by our joint ventures. Yes. And in total, we have now EUR 9.2 billion of assets of which EUR 6.7 billion sits in the JVs, of which we own 50%. So we have [ 5 million ] of lettable area, which sits in this joint venture, it's 213 building. In total, we have 266 buildings now, which are income generating. Then we have our renewable energy. Renewable energy was started in the first place to be able to comply with all the new rules. But it's always -- we've always looked at it as it needs to make money -- it has to be a business. And it's grown quite a lot, and we have diversified it quite. So if you look at, we have EUR 140 million invested at more than 10% gross yield in our solar panel installations for which we think the lifetime is 25 years on our roofs. We own that 100% ourselves. VGP Renewable Energy is our own company. We are 100% ownership. The joint ventures have nothing to do with it. We have installed 193.4 megawatt peak, and we have 32 under construction. And virtually every roof now of every build which we construct on, we put solar panels on top. Either we sell the energy into the grid or mostly with delivery to our customers or otherwise, we just pool it and then sell it to our customers with a PPA agreement. So most of it is the thing. 64% of the platform is live today, but we still have a lot under construction. And then it always takes a little bit of time to connect these things you are ready, but then somebody needs to come and approve them. That's why it takes always -- there is always a lag in sight. So the EUR 140 million looks at first half year, we had EUR 7.6 million of income against that, but that is -- it's a big part of this EUR 140 million are things which are still under construction, at least EUR 20 million is still under construction, so not income generating yet. Yes. And it grows. It keeps on growing, and it's a nice business. It's a high-yielding thing. And then we have taken a look at batteries. Now there are a lot of companies who specialize in batteries. There was a nice article this morning in the newspaper about it how many billions are flowing into batteries. For us, the same as with data centers. It's a byproduct because we have a land bank on which we can do it. and it's a very nice product to make a profit on it. But it's not our -- we are not becoming a battery storage company. We are not becoming a data center company, like many of my competitors are completely transferred to. We don't do that anymore. We do just data center. We are not going to do that. But we have grid connected. We have great connection. We have big rig connections, sometimes here, we have a very big rig connection. We have a huge rig connection in Hagen. We have a big rig connection in Velizy. We have big rig connections in the Netherlands of all places where we have already connected. So we already have installed 31.5 megawatts peak. We have under construction or waiting for the permit for another 140 megawatts. And I don't know if it sells you something, but these are big projects. That's quite sizable. It's a lot of things. And we have another [ 80 million ] in the pipeline. So what we want to do is -- when it's a warm day like this summer, we had many then many of the solar panel things are just shut down because there is too much electricity produced Germany has 4x the capacity which is needed installed in solar panels on its roof 4x. It's a total overkill. So if at the moment when it's a warm day, then it's reduced in the account too. So the best thing to do is and then the electrical energy is also minus. It's negative because they pay you to not go online. And so we store it. And then when there is a peak, when there is not enough capacity, we release it. And for our plans, if it is related to a tenant smaller installations, during the day, if they can't use it, we just store it in the battery, so they can use it at night. And that's small projects on light. That is a little bit what we are doing. So it's growing fast. It's in rent now to our business model. Everybody does it in our companies throughout the whole 18 countries where we are active in, and it's become part of our daily normal business. Yes. And then the [indiscernible] Supreme where you've all been waiting for and why you're here, I think. Data Centers. Now I've been very worried on talking about data centers because it creates expectations. Everybody is looking at technology today, and these things are very difficult to develop. There are many people talking about them. But when you look at the actual capacity, and we have Sarah Wilkinson standing right straight in front of me, who comes from Microsoft times working for us. if you already since quite some time now, if you look at the real data center market and you compare to numbers, which are really live and operational to what is thought about, and it's a fraction it's ridiculous how little data center capacity in Europe we have compared to the United States, it's ridiculous. And it's just all because of congestion of power. It's all because of troubles with getting the permit. And it's also because a lot of local communities, just wanted point because it consumes all the energy. It kills all the other projects. Nobody can produce anymore. There is no more work for the people. That's how they think about it. It's not necessarily true, but it's how they think about it. Many projects have been killed also in Germany just because the local authorities don't want to. That's why we only speak about why we feel very sure that we're going to be able to deliver, and we shut up about everything else where we are just taking a look at from a glance from far away. And why do data centers fit VGP? In the first place because we have powered land a good relationship with the local community, and we have made a deal with them that we can partly do it. We are in a lot of places where the European Tier 1 and Tier 2 markets are. I will show you right away and we have land plots there, which have power. And so -- and that's a bit why it shoots very well inside of our -- another leg to stand on. And yes, it monetizes power and data center, of course. For us, it's not a new -- it's not -- we are not going to like a snake change the thing in our skin and become a different animal. For us, it's an extra income source, which we want to do again, together with a partner, which is specialized in it. We don't want to take the execution risk on ourselves alone. I visited many of these data centers. The construction part is not what is scaring me. I think that is something which VGP can do with all of this thing. What is carrying me is the engineering part and how fast this thing is evolving. And we see the data centers which I have been visiting all of them are different. And depending on the age of when they have been constructed, they are all different, and they all add up to a very fast pace to the new things which are coming on these chips are ever more powerful. They consume a lot more energy the white room, you would think it's going to be smaller, but it's actually getting bigger to -- and the heating -- the heat is a big problem. You also get legislation around it. Anyway, we've tried to put it in the slides. So the constraint has moved from capital. That's not a constraint anymore because there is a lot of capital available for data centers today. If you want to raise money for a data center development, it doesn't feel like it is a problem. It's the opportunity is a problem today. There is no more land, and there is certainly no land with power available. So AI and cloud demand is increasingly constrained. AI is moving out to -- for us in Europe to the Nordics, where we have a lot of green energy, very cheap power or to Spain, where you also have cheap power. We have seen some of the things. But we want to -- in the first place, concentrate on what is the Tier 1 and the Tier 2 markets where the cloud solution will need to be because they need to be close to the epicenter of what they are used for. And that's -- I will come right next Data center economics are driven by megawatt capacity. The rental prices in megawatts. It's defined by megawatts. So the more megawatts you can offer, the higher the rental price is going to be, but also the higher the CapEx is going to be. And we think we see that there is -- it's the opportunity of having very long leases. So when you develop this thing, you have a very long rental income with a very strong covenant normally because the hyperscalers, which are around Frankfurt, all rig names, you name them, they are here, Microsoft, Google, Amazon Web Services. We've all been talking to them already. All of them have been talked to. Everyone, everything we do already all of these things today, we have powered land. We do the permitting. At the moment, we have contracted a company, which is called a very big planning office, which works for all of the names, which I just mentioned. And we are in the design phase of our first data center ourselves together, which we do together with our new partner. So we are -- it's really ongoing. We think we can apply for the building permit in the first quarter of next year. And we have been promised to have it available by the third quarter of next year. We will see whether that all matches maybe they come out some hiccup, but it is -- it's the last straight line. We can see the finish. We have a lot of brownfields. And I think the most important thing is when we go and talk to the municipality and they say, we don't want a data center. We can offer them so many things alongside of it that we -- there is always a trade-off in which we can then say, okay, let us do at least a part of it. We only want to do it while we think it's a safe investment. But yes, with 18 countries as a footprint and 140 parks, of course, there are opportunities. Of course, there is possibilities. We just need to be careful and not make a mistake. If you look a little bit about the data center growth, so the dots, which are only here are, believe it or not, but these are all the VGP parks, yes, there are many. The red circles is what is called the Tier 1 markets. So it's Ireland, it's London in the first place. It's the Netherlands, it's Frankfurt and it's Paris. And then you have things which are becoming more and more online. We have spin Madrid. We have Milan, we have Switzerland, and then we have Vienna a little bit. And then we have Berlin, which has become bigger and bigger. And then the Nordics overall have been -- is more and more an investment into data center. And if you look at it, we are not active in Poland. In France, we have a little bit more land plots already, but it matches in Continental Europe, it matches quite well where we have our land lots. So there is -- of course, there is opportunity inside of it. The problem is in this what they call the flap D, Frankfurt, London, Amsterdam and Paris, there is no more -- there is a big congestion in power. So on average, you are waiting 7 to 10 years for a power connection if you already can get the promise to get it. That's why it's moving. They are looking to other locations, but some of the things we just can't move. And we are trying to build a platform. So we have selected to sites inside of our portfolio, which -- on which we have an agreement with the city that we can build a data center on, on which we have a contract, and I thanks to Opel. We have a nice contract here. We have a 2x grid connection of 50 megawatts, which we can reserve -- I'm sorry, which we can reserve for -- that's one of my employees who doesn't know I had a Capital Markets Day, which we can reserve for the data center. And yes, and we are going to partner. So what we are going to do, we have these 2, I can now talk a little bit more about it. So where we took you here because you see that building over there with [indiscernible]. I don't know if you can say, but I can see it from my thing you can look -- take a look at it behind the parking house which we are building, we are now demolishing that site. So the insights, we are taking everything which is inside already out. There is a solar panel thing on top of the roof, which Frank promised needed by the year-end will be gone. And then we will demolish the building. It will be demolished by February, March. They used to bump this thing very heavily. So we first need to look also that there is nothing left in the ground during the world war. Also here, but don't be worried, it's all clean. And then we can start construction as early as we think ending of next year. You can see that we have an enormous amount of recycled material everywhere on the site, and we will have more even from there. We will use that to place a bit also the floor because there is the river mine right next to it. And so in order to be 100% certain, he has never been [indiscernible], but just to be 100% certainly can never happen. So we'll raise the floor a bit over there. We have the recycled material for that kept all of it. And as I already said, we have a 65-megawatt grid available, 64-megawatt grid available, which 50 megawatts we are going to allocate to the DC. And then if we need powerful, we have located to this green campus, which is going to be a huge production facility also the necessary power is roughly the 15%, which we have extra. And then we are transforming the power station, which is over there to generate power up to 200 megawatts, which we could do theoretically if we get the permit for it, but it's now already 112-megawatt big, so that we can get for sure. And we're going to use that partly to supply our industrial projects and partly to expand in the future, a bridge for our data center to the new grid connection, which should be no later than 2035. Obviously, we think not as promised for 2032, but we think it was going to be 2035. So that's -- it's embedded in the local plan, which is underway. We do it with Paragraph 34, with which we did the same system as we did this building. So it's owned by the local authority, the regional authority, not the local alternative. They give the permit. It's going to go on. We have the power secured and the lenses, it's almost immediate. So I can -- today, I can with confidence for the first time, say, yes, we are going to make a data center in Russelsheim. And yes, it's going to happen. And yes, it's big, because 50 megawatts is really big in Frankfurt area. They all talk about hundreds of megawatts as it nothing, but there is not existing. It doesn't exist. It's -- the only ones which exist of that scale are really owned directly by the hyperscalers, not by anybody else that I know of. And then we have a similar thing in Milan. In Milan, we had a site which we bought really to develop last mile logistics on it in Paderno. We -- it's a Tier 2 market. We asked already a couple of years ago to the grid the people who own the grid, whether they could provide us electricity. We signed an agreement with them that they are going to deliver us by the end of 2028, 120 megawatts in there, which is contract, not a contact. It's with an R, we paid for it. And we have an agreement with the city council also that we can develop the site as a data center side. So we are now also -- we have contracted also a designer. We are designing our first data center in Milan also, and it's going to be the second work stream, which we will start off with our new development partner. So this is the plant. It's not going to be used as is. They are going to dismantle it and build a new plant. This is one big turbine, we're going to do all scalable turbines behind each other. So if one falls out, it's always redundant. Just like the grid here, we have a so-called green and the red grid, and we are connected from both sides. So there is 2 -- there is actually 2 distribution centers from it is connected. So if one falls out, you also -- you always have the connection from the other side. Yes. Yes, this speaks for itself. I already explained everything on it. We are taking a look at it, very careful. I want to state one more which is important. We are not a data center developer. We want to partner with somebody who has really a track proven record and a very good name and who is building at this moment for all the big names, data centers and is very professional inside of it. Yes, potentially. So these 2, I already told 50 and 120. Potentially -- so that's 170 megawatts, but potentially Frankfurt could grow with another 140. We will see. That's music for the future. The 50 is a certainty. The rest is something which we need to work for. But we think we can do that. And we have the land which we have reserved here. It's 7 hectares. On the 7 hectares, we can do these megawatts. Is it more and more concentrated. That's a bit where we are. Now many of you will want to ask us how are you going to finance that? I don't know. Is the right answer. No, that's the truth. So we've been taking a look at a lot of the CapEx, which have been spent on data centers in the -- around us. And depending on who the operator is and what is the type of data center, whether it's cohabitation or it's hyperscaler, the scope is -- it goes from 8 till 16. So from 1 to 2 in the investment megawatts million euros. So if we take a careful -- not too careful at 10 million or a little bit more per megawatt, you can see what the implied platform is. Now we think we can leverage 50% on that -- on the data centers when it is a good lease agreement and a long-term lease agreement and a good name. So we need -- if we keep 50%, we need to fund 25%. Hence, for us, also, it's good that they are here today, my friends from East Capital. And we are going to see our other friends from Saga, our other thing because we need to recycle really a lot of capital, which we are going to do now. And then, yes, it's spread over a lot of years, 500 to 700 tickets over the next 5 to 6 years, which is for us, absolutely, I would say, [indiscernible], we can just do that. That would not be a problem. And we do only committed capital at the moment when the permit is in place. The only thing which we are putting capital inside today is the land we already have. So we don't need to -- we will bring it in. We will bring it in at its valued as a land for data centers. So that's one of the contributions lens permitting, power and construction. It's what we are going to contribute to the development pipeline. It will be contributed at market value that's agreed with in the MoU. So we will not add purchase price, but at the market value of land suitable for a data center development. We have 2 seed projects which we bring to the table, and they are very well progressing in power and permitting. And then what we are -- the partner, our partner is a real specialist in data center development. And he also operates them. So he also has a lot of -- he has more than 100 employees to operate these data centers. So they do that. They have a lot of investment management capability. They raised a lot of money to do so. So they are quite big. They're going to help us with the establishment of such a vehicle. And then yes, they have a lot of operating know-how. We are going to build together an operating company. We will contribute our Sarah to that and some other people. They are going to contribute also some of those people, amongst others, maybe some technical people. We will have an asset doing joint venture underneath of that, which will have the ownership of the data center to which we will contribute our development pipeline at market value, but both a 50%. And we have -- our intention is to keep 50%, but we have negotiated that we can dilute if it becomes too heavy a thing. So we can attract other capital in sight I wanted to be very careful when setting this up so that we have all the opportunities open to see what we can do. Yes. Well, it's -- that's the end of my story of today, I think. I think there will be some questions. I talked exactly 1 hour and 10 minutes, a little bit longer than I should have. I'm sorry.

So if you have any questions, we have somebody who will run around with a microphone, and I'm happy to take them.

Thomas from Deutsche Bank. Could you give us maybe a bit more of a color on the timing and the time line for the data center scale-up plan, especially by when do you expect the first cash flows to come effective -- become effective basically?

It's a good question, but it's a guess from my side. But what we have now planned for Russelsheim is that we start construction in 2028. We think we will have -- I've taken a look at it. It depends a little bit on who the tenant will be and what the requirements will be because we have a lot of people talking to us and it might be that we need to do some changes inside of our process. At the moment, it's as a cohabitation data center, colocation data center. We think we need 2 years of construction period and then some fit-outs. So we think that by 2030, somewhere in the year, it will start generating cash flow. That's for russelsheim. But then on will follow 2 years later. So it's going to take still a quite a while. But of course, we will start construction. So the demolition has started now. We think we will have the part next year and we will start construction, yes, probably already at the end of 2027 with all the alerting works. And we've looked at many models together with Sarah. You could sell power land, you could sell core and shell. You could sell -- you can do the whole building fit out with all the generators and everything, et cetera. And you can do a fully completely ready thing and then just rent space out. We've opted for the third thing, which is more capital intensive, but we did so because we found a very -- a very good partner to do it with, which when we feel very confident that the management skills of such a thing is completely under control, and it will be a higher CapEx but also a higher income. That's what we see from it if we look at it today. It's going to be a higher-yielding project than when you just sell the land. I'm sorry, I didn't hear you.

But when can we expect you to announce the partner here?

When the -- so there is a memory of understanding signed, we will announce it at the moment when we have finalized our agreements with them, which should be still this year, I think yes. But it's an intense negotiation. Yes, I can hear you.

Suraj Goyal from Green Street. So I just wanted to clarify a little bit on the waterfall for the 225 megawatts. So the 50 megawatts in Frankfurt and the 120 in Milan. So is that already secured power? And then what's the expected timing for that and then versus the rest in the pipeline?

Yes. So the -- in Frankfurt here in Russelsheim today, we have a 65-megawatt connection existing grids. You've driven faster -- one of the distribution points where there is 112 megawatts at the other side. I don't know if Christopher or Vincent, I don't know who was with you showed you do, but it is existing. It is open used it, and we bought part of that grid connection together with the landlord. So that's allocated to us, and we have it available. There is no more executive risk on the first part of it. The power plant is existing. There is agreement with KIO in place which is signed that they are doing a permit for transforming the power plant. . How much we are going to be able because you need an environmental permit for that is still a little bit in the air, but it has today roughly 100-megawatt capacity to produce heat and it's the same technology to produce it's a little bit different, but to produce electricity. In Paderno, we have signed a contract with a grid provider in which he under penalties has agreed to deliver us the power no later than by the end of 2028. So he needs to do some investments for that. He has a permit, which is asking for it and you need to deliver by the end of 2028, 120-megawatt connection under our bank lot. That's in Paderno. And on the other side, it's too early stage to confirm anything or to say there is no other sites which we are looking at. But even we are even thinking about converting existing buildings, which we have in some of our parts into a data center. That's also an opportunity because we have a lot of very well-located plots, which are already fully developed, but where there is also an opportunity in the future. But it's far too early to talk about it. It's opportunities and no certainties.

Peter Runneboom, Kempen. You said that the engineering parts scare you a bit that these data centers are evolving quickly. So what kind of yield on cost are you thinking for by building a data today if you compare it to just a simple box?

Substantially higher. Yes, substantially higher. Of course, the CAC in one building is also substantially higher. But we have seen like we've been talking to a lot of potential joint venture partners. And they come up with -- there is 2 ways how to look at it. But because they come up with a proposal in which we participate the land at market value, which is different already for us in our return package than for them of our 50% partner because they pay the full price for land. So that's one thing. And then they -- in their assumptions, their yield on costs are well above 10%. So that's their assumptions, their things which they are doing. So that's what we go out from also that we never built on. So we need to trust them that it's well above 10%. Just what's the estimate...

On the financing part, do you see any changes in your dividend policy? Would you have dividend in shares and things like?

The answer -- I don't think we will do dividends in share. It's not -- there is no dogmas in our head. It's not like not never, but I don't see a change in our dividend policy. As you have seen, our recurring income is growing every year, and it's growing quite exponentially. And we've always said our free cash out of the recurrent income is going to be the base for our dividend distribution. So we try to grow it steadily every year a little bit going forward, and that's the idea that we keep it that way.

Vivien Maqet from Degroof Petercam. Maybe on the discussion with the partner on the contribution of the land, do you intend to contribute both line directly or the Milan rather when you have, I would say, the power allocation there?

Seeing the size of these things, I think it will be different project companies and both will be separately in a different company for sure. So we're not going to contribute it today. We will contribute it at the moment. Russelsheim probably at the moment when we have the building permit, then it will be contributed and Milan also at the more of the building permit, then it will be contributing inside of this thing. But the framework agreement will be signed this year.

Okay. And within the discussion because it's intensive discussion, can you elaborate if it's more related to the future pipeline or rather to the 2 projects in that revenue?

No, no. It's related to the 2 projects. We have already delegated teams from both sides, which are really running the technical discussions today with everybody. So it's a very hot process. We have weekly meetings. We are I'm going myself for having the discussions around. It's also around the setup of how we are going to operate these things because there is 2 entities going to operate one single company. So it's a lot about governance and things like that, which we are discussing.

Steven from ABN ODDO. Question, what's the development margin that you expect here, the broad range? And second, when do you expect revaluations to kicking in so the permitting construction pre-letting?