Visa Inc. (V) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

We're going to get started. We are very excited to have the CFO of Visa here, Vasant Prabhu, who is also Vice Chairman of the company. And we're going to run through a whole bunch of fireside chat topics, lots of interesting data points coming out of Visa recently.

And I guess where I wanted to start with, Vasant, is just we see some of this recent commentary from other companies who are major players in the U.S. economy, a Walmart, a Target. They're talking about consumers making some different choices or maybe trading down in terms of goods that they're buying. Your 8-K last week showed a continuation of really robust trends in the U.S. from April to May. So is it just that what happens at Walmart and Target is just not significant enough and material enough in the scheme of things to move the needle at Visa? Or just any other comments perhaps to kind of reconcile what seems like somewhat disparate data points out there?

Yes. Well, nice to see you again, Jason, and great to be here. So as you know, we have a highly diversified basket of things that people buy. It spans all income groups, it spans goods and services, it spans essential items as well as discretionary items and so on. And yes, I mean, Walmart and Target are good -- are big in their sectors. But as part of the entire volume that we see on our credentials, debit and credit, they are still a smaller portion. Having said all that, if you looked at our numbers, it suggests quite a lot of stability. And a few things I might point out. We've been fairly consistent in telling people to focus on comparisons to a pre-COVID time frame, which is 2019. Because we think if you compare it to last year, there's a lot of noise. People do forget or may forget that in April, May last year, we had some significant increases in spending because of the stimulus checks that went out. And so when you compare to last year, you're going to see comparisons that could be misleading. So you have to be careful. The other thing to note is that during the pandemic, we saw a big shift to people who are essentially stuck at home buying products. You had a significant decline in consumption of services. You're seeing that pendulum swing. And so where we see the greatest growth right now is in things people couldn't do before like travel, like restaurants, like entertainment and so on. So we get the benefit of the pendulum swing, which you may not see in -- when you look at the numbers for people who sell goods. More broadly, as we look across our income groups, we're not seeing big differences between lower-income and high-income groups. If you look at the trends relative to 2019, not only were they stable between April and May, but they've been stable for quite a few months, in fact, for several quarters now. And what we've seen is that debit has stayed very resilient, indexing in the 150s, which is a robust growth rate when you look at the compound annual growth rate over the past 3 years, much higher than what was pre-COVID. Credit has now indexed at roughly 140. Again, if you look at the compound annual growth rate, that is a higher growth rate than pre-COVID, which means not only has credit recovered all the way back to the trend line, it's now starting to go past the trend line. So we're not -- we're not economic forecasters. We definitely don't want to get into that business. Just based on the facts as they stand today, there's no evidence of any slowdown in consumer spending as of the 28th of May when we release those numbers.

Yes. Maybe just to pick up on that comment around the travel spend. I mean, one of the data points that really jumped off the page for us, at least in the 8-K was the cross-border travel, right? I mean you accelerated 16 full points from April to May. You're at 108% of 2019 levels. I mean your guidance had been to get to 100% by the end of September at the end of the fiscal year. So obviously, you're way ahead of schedule there. So I guess kind of a 2-part question there. Would you agree that, that's what surprised you guys most to the upside? And if so, maybe break that down by corridor where you were surprised on the upside.

Sure. So since about October, if you've been listening to us, we turned bullish on cross-border travel because it felt to us in October that there had been a significant change in sentiment among countries about keeping borders open. We had this feeling that fundamentally, most countries had decided that they were no longer going to shut borders, and that has proved to be true. So Omicron came along. And yes, we had a little bit of a slowdown, but we were also optimistic it will rebound fast, and it did. So we have been bullish about cross-border travel. The good news is that it has recovered each time even faster than we expected. It's a hard one to predict because what you see is that when borders open, you have a big jump as countries open and then things start to stabilize and then more countries open and things start to stabilize. So we had a whole slew of countries opening in October, and we saw big bumps between September, October, November. And then coming into March and April, we started to see, as you know, you saw Asia start to open up. When we were talking to you at the end of April, we pointed out that Asia was beginning to open up, and it was early days. And Canada had been fairly slow to open up, and Canada was opening up. And then you have a third thing going on. The weather is improving in the Northern Hemisphere. So even though the U.S. opened in November, it was the winter. But as the weather improves, it becomes a more desirable place to go. So essentially, what has happened since the end of April, March to April was relatively stable, but then we saw the big jump up in May. And that was largely driven by what we had told you in April, which is Asia is beginning to open up. So Australia and New Zealand had just opened. Canada had been opened a relatively short time. And then the rest of Asia, ex China, Japan, Korea, Taiwan and Hong Kong, have generally opened up. Those are the countries that have not opened. So the big bump in May was largely driven most significantly by the opening up of large parts of Asia. So we said that Asia was indexing at about 40% on average through the last quarter. Asia is now indexing somewhere in the 60% range. So that's almost a 50% increase from 40% to 60%. The other 2 places that have seen some nice bumps are Europe, in and out, has been quite robust. Some of it is weather, some of it is just -- Europeans are just becoming far more comfortable traveling. Ramadan ended in the Middle East, and we saw some nice increases coming out of the Middle East. And then in the U.S., we told you inbound was one of the ones that still had a ways to go. We said it was indexing around 70%. And it has picked up nicely. It's probably in the mid- to high 80s right now relative to 2019. And that's driven by Canadian travel coming back, European travel into the U.S. and just an improvement in travel out of Asia as well as weather improving. We don't think of ourselves as leading indicators, like I don't know if you're not feeling good enough to buy something 2 weeks from now, I'll only know that when you don't buy it. But there's one part of our business where we do see a little bit ahead, and that's travel because people do make bookings 30 to 60 days ahead of time. And based on all that, and also from what you're hearing from travel companies, the pent-up demand for travel remains extremely high. The summer travel season, especially into Europe, is looking very good. There's no indication that consumers are pulling back on travel. Now there's always the hypothetical, which is, could you have seen an even bigger bump if consumers are more confident? That's hard to know. All we know is that there's plenty of demand for travel regardless of higher prices for airline tickets or hotels.

And so coming back on the APAC comments, I think you said indexing around 60% of 2019 levels. Now the 40%, that was for the March quarter. Is that...

Yes, it was indexing around 40%. Yes. So it's now moved up a decent amount. But still, as you can see, well below where it was.

So do we need China to stop pursuing Zero-COVID to potentially get that back to 100 in APAC or...

Well, I mean, there's still more recovery to come from the countries that have opened...

Yes.

We've seen a big chunk of it already because you wouldn't jump like this without people traveling out of Australia and New Zealand and so on. Clearly, Japan is slowly opening up. So I think we used to get about 100,000 people inbound to Japan. I believe that's a monthly number. I may be wrong, but Japan was allowing about 1/10 of that, it was very sort of restricted entry. Now they've doubled it a bit, so it's not quite there. Things are opening up slowly in Korea and Taiwan. China is clearly shut. Yes, at some point, there will be another leg up in Asia when these countries open. When that is, we don't know. Having said that, if you just look at our cross-border business in total, ex intra-Europe, it's indexing around 130 right now, which if you look at the growth rate pre-COVID, sort of gets us back to the pre-COVID growth rate. The reason is because cross-border e-commerce has been incredibly strong, and that's here to stay. So cross-border e-commerce is indexing in the 160s, and that's a compound annual growth rate over 3 years. It's well above what it was pre-COVID. And the mix of the business now is more e-commerce than it was before. Now travel has more to recover. It used to be 2/3 travel, 1/3 e-commerce. Now it's 55% e-commerce, 45% travel, roughly. Travel still has to recover, but it's very likely that we come out of this with cross-border e-commerce being a much larger component of the mix. And it is a faster-growing business. So that's a good thing for the cross-border business overall. So again, it's interesting to note that even with travel still not where it was, the overall cross-border business is pretty much back to the trend line.

Yes. Yes. Those numbers are really, really strong. So coming back to what you said earlier, obviously, you guys aren't forecasters by trade. I'm just wondering, are there certain leading indicators that perhaps you guys look at in the economy to get a sense of maybe where things are going over the next 6 months? I mean we see data points like consumer confidence, for example, which I think slipped a bit in May, at least according to one index that I saw. So just wondering, to what extent there are data points that you guys look at to try and get a beat on things because, obviously, there's some general concern out there that at some point, the consumer is going to kind of run out of gas, no pun intended, right, but with inflation and rates, et cetera.

Yes. I mean I tend to be in the camp where I don't think anybody has a great crystal ball. We have an -- we have a Visa economist who puts out his own points of view. Everybody has a point of view. I don't think anybody really knows. So we look at all the data available. But fundamentally, we look at our own data every day, right? And we look at it as soon as we get it every morning. We look at it in as many different and from as many different angles as you can. And you look at it down category by category. You look at it across many dimensions. And I have to say that so far, what you see is actually quite intuitive. It's what you might expect. It isn't surprising. There's a decent amount of resilience in consumer spending. You see people spending a lot more on things that they were not able to spend on before. You see people not spending as much on things that they spent a lot on before. The shifts in spending are surprisingly intuitive. And in general, spending seems quite resilient, right? Now again, as you said, I mean, things can change. I don't think we have a crystal ball that's any better than anybody else's nor do we put too much store into all the predictions people put out there. It's all opinions and I don't think anybody really knows.

Yes. So once we -- so like you said, summer travel, looking really good. I mean what's the next thing to monitor, back-to-school spend or are people starting to book vacations potentially for Thanksgiving, Christmas? Is that kind of what you'll be looking at next sort of post...

Yes, I think as you look at our business, one of the biggest drivers has been borders opening up. So monitoring any further openings of borders, that probably has a much larger impact on our business than anything else in the short term. One of the things we've been monitoring for a while is the recovery of credit. Credit has been recovering quite nicely. And if you just look at demand for credit credentials, right, number of new credit credentials being issued, it's very strong. It's been growing faster than it has pre pandemic and has been quite strong for almost a year now. In fact, our Chief Economist would say that all the research he does and everything he hears from the bank says that the demand for new credit credentials, and we call them credentials now, not cards because they're not physical cards all the time, is very good. Banks are very bullish on it. He would tell you that the younger generations are behaving very much like their parents did, that there's really no changes in behavior despite all the talk of maybe Gen Zs going to use credit differently, et cetera. He would tell you that behavior is very similar. And we're entering a wave where a whole bunch of people want credit credentials. So I'd say the bright spot in the last few months has been the recovery of credit, both credentials as well as usage. And the fact that credit now is going past the pre-COVID trend line, even as debit has stayed very resilient.

Yes. Do you happen to have a lens in terms of those credit credentials? Is it more for kind of higher value, higher rewards cards or more for the no-frills types of credit cards? Do you have any kind of lens into that or...

No, I wouldn't be able to tell you a lot more. I mean I don't have that kind of data here, right? And I don't remember it off the top of my head. But I would say, in general, spending on credit has been strong. It's been strong across income groups. It's been strong on what you might call discretionary spend, right, especially travel, restaurants and entertainment. And credit tends to have more of a discretionary spend than debit does. So that suggests that, a, consumer balance sheets are still in good shape, and consumers are willing to use that.

Yes. And that demographic data point was pretty interesting that you just gave around the younger generation because I think it is sort of counterintuitive in terms of what people tend to think. But if we think about, to your point, around no one really knows where the economy is going, but obviously, recession is on everyone's mind these days or the prospect of recession. I mean if we think back to the spring of 2020, pandemic hits, we saw Visa post negative OpEx growth for 3 straight quarters in response to, obviously, the top line shock at the business was experiencing. So I guess maybe tell investors a little bit about how they should think about Visa's playbook or game plan in the event that we do go into, let's call it, more of a normal recession, right, not a great financial crisis kind of recession and what the thought process would be around managing the P&L.

Sure. I know some people have asked questions like, well, we didn't know your business was cyclical. Well, it isn't. I don't think our business is cyclical because what happened last year was not a cycle, right? What happened through the pandemic was a 100-year event where if we had -- if someone had told you in 2019 that in the next 6 months, you're going to be in a position where you won't be able to leave your home, right? Schools will be shut. You'll be working from home. And by the way, you won't be able to -- like cross borders. Countries will be -- borders will be shut. People would have said, you're nuts, right? Like never going to happen. Well, yes, if you tell people, you're going to stay at home, you can't leave and you can't travel and you can't cross borders, it is going to affect our business. That's not a cycle. So when you talk about cycles, it's economic cycles. And if you look at our business, if there is an economic cycle in the next 6 months, there are some underlying trends that are still happening that are very favorable right now that can make up for any slowdowns in spending. Number one, the cash digitization engine is stronger than it's ever been. So through the pandemic, we have seen more people around the world adopt digital forms of payment because they realized they have to, and it is the future. More merchants have realized that they have no business unless they accept digital forms of payment. And the infrastructure for digital payments has gotten better just about everywhere. I mean the evidence for that is if you look at any emerging market, Latin America, our payments volume has doubled over the last 3 years. That has -- personal consumption expenditure in those countries has [indiscernible] doubled in the last 3 years. In the Middle East Africa region, our payments volume has doubled in the last 3 years. Same thing. I mean that's way in excess of consumption expenditures. In India, our payments volume is up 80%, right? And I can go on and on. What it tells you is that there's been a big swing towards digital payments. And by the way, in most of these markets, the penetration of cash is still incredibly low, right? So it's not like -- it's like an ocean of cash, and a little bit of the water has come out of the ocean, but you now have a machine that can take more water out every year. So the cash digitization engine is stronger than ever, and it's a big driver of our business. We tend to grow much faster than personal consumption expenditure. So even in a slowdown, you would see us grow better than consumption expenditures. The second thing is e-commerce. Once again, I mean, more people have adopted e-commerce than they did pre pandemic. E-commerce is not pervasive across all categories. Food and drug was an area that there wasn't a lot of e-commerce. Restaurants were an area where there wasn't a lot of e-commerce. Even in traditional areas where there's e-commerce -- there was e-commerce before like retail goods and so on, we're seeing a lot more. E-commerce has just fundamentally become a larger part of our mix. And e-commerce is going to grow faster even in bad times, right? So once again, we could grow faster than consumption expenditures because e-commerce is a larger part of our mix. Third, this pent-up demand for travel. Maybe if consumers were even more confident, they would travel even more. But there's clearly pent-up demand for cross-border travel, and that trend will continue even if there's a downturn. And then finally, as you know, a lot of our spend, especially on debit cards, is essential spending. And that tends to make our business fairly resilient. The last thing I would say, and I'm not the expert on this, but all the indications are that as we go into this period, which may be a self-inflicted loss of consumer confidence with everybody yelling at the top of their voices saying, be scared, everybody is telling you to be scared.

Some kind of prophecy, right? Exactly.

But consumers are going into a period like this with pretty strong balance sheets, probably better than they've been in the past. So our approach is it's a long-cycle business. We invest today for returns that we may get many years down the road. We're going to stay focused on investing in the business. And if there is some slowdown, we will consider pulling back some things by prioritizing what's important. But at this point, we are staying focused on investing for the future.

Let's switch gears over to value-added services. So over 20% of your revenue, growing over 20%, obviously faster than the corporate average. So maybe just to level set, maybe for folks that are a little bit less familiar, maybe just walk through some of the components of the value-added services business. And then we'd love to get your view on how those various services businesses might perform in the event of an economic downturn.

Yes. So we have a broad set of services. Some of the larger areas are fraud and risk. Fraud and risk is not necessarily economically sensitive. It's a transactions-driven business. As more and more moves to e-commerce, there is a greater need for fraud and risk services because most fraud now is online. With the chip in the card, fraud pretty much is disappearing in a face-to-face transaction. So the growth of e-commerce is really what drives that. And it has been very resilient through this whole period because e-commerce has grown. Another big service is CyberSource, which is our gateway service. CyberSource is extraordinary opportunities, again, with the growth of e-commerce, with the growth of omni-commerce and with the opportunity to build the business globally. A third business is processing we do for issuers, issuer processing. Again, that's linked more to debit. There's a global growth opportunity there. We have a consulting business where we do a wide range of services. We have dispute resolution. We have authentication. So as you look across these services, many of them are services that are in early stages of growth. There's tremendous global growth opportunity. There's tremendous opportunity to penetrate more of our client base. They held up very well through the pandemic. You saw that. They were growing in the 20%, all the way through the pandemic. So our view is that they should do well even if there is a recessionary slowdown only because of the nature of the services and the fact that there's a large opportunity there. And we'll keep adding to them. As you know, we added Currencycloud. We added Tink. Currencycloud gives us capabilities that substantially expand our FX services. Tink allows us to offer open banking services. So we keep expanding the scope of those services, too. So we're very optimistic about the resilience of value-added services if we get into a period where there is some kind of a slowdown.

Also wanted to touch on client incentives. Obviously, that's a part of your P&L that inherently is tough to have a lot of visibility on, right? And certainly, the pandemic caused some really unprecedented mix shifts in your business that move that number around quite a bit. So how would you encourage investors to think about just sort of a general longer-term trend in that number? And now that we are seeing this really nice rebound in cross-border travel, to what extent is that going to help kind of improve that metric here in the near term?

Yes. I think we've always said be careful when you look at the percentage, right? The percentage is a derived number. It has a numerator and a denominator, right? And it can move because of a change in the numerator or denominator, and sometimes you can draw the wrong conclusions. There was a period about, I don't know, maybe 3 or 4 quarters ago where because of the mix shift away from cross-border, the percentage went up, and people do some wrong conclusions, right? People assume that there was some kind of a structural change in the business. And we told everybody that wasn't true. It was just a mix shift. And that has proven to be the case as the cross-border business has come back. The reason it's deceptive is also we have a list price, and then we discount off the list price depending on certain clients and what they can deliver, et cetera. And there's an interplay between the list price and the discount. And so the percentages can be deceptive. So you have to, let's call it, handle it with care, so to speak. What really counts is net revenue growth because that's what you take to the bank. And we've had very healthy net revenue growth regardless of the percentage, right? I mean the percentage went up, but net revenue growth still was very hefty in the last few quarters. So net revenue is what goes to the bank. So I would encourage everybody to focus on net revenue growth and not focus strictly on the percentage. Yes, you should look at the percentage, but you should also be careful in drawing too many conclusions from it. So as you've seen, the percentage has been fairly stable for quite a while. Its general tendency was to go up about 50 to 100 basis points a year. But for the last several quarters, it's been quite stable because we've had an improvement in the mix. So the cross-border business coming back helps the denominator. It increases the denominator without changing the numerator very much. And so it helps that percentage. We've said for a while that when the dust settles, and we get back to a normal mix, and we're not back there yet, right? We are still at a point where our cross-border business is a smaller percentage of our revenue than it was pre-COVID. So there's more room -- there's more to go. When we get to that point, and you look back on this period, you start with 2021 pre-COVID and you look at, let's say, fiscal year, I don't know, '24 or '25, whenever we are stable or back to the -- it would be where it would have been if COVID had never happened, right? So it may have gone up half a point to a point each year. Part of the increase, half a point to a point, is the dynamics of the business, the competitive dynamics, the renewal cycles, et cetera, et cetera. So the short answer is there's no news there, right? It's sort of what it always was. It's a little hard to predict quarter-to-quarter because you don't quite know exactly what renewals you're going to get and what the mix is going to be and so on. But generally speaking, over a year, we've been reasonably in the ballpark, and nothing really has changed.

Okay. So nothing in terms of like pace of renewals and clients asking to have renewal discussions, all kind of more or less...

No. I mean you can have renewals clump together like we had in 2019 and '20. And then you have a couple of years like we're having this year where renewal activity is somewhat lower. And I mean those things are normal.

Yes. Exactly. Let's -- we continue to get questions from time to time about just the regulatory and legislative environment, and this has kind of been part of what Visa has operated in for decades, literally well before you were a public company. So when you just kind of look around the world today, are there certain, for lack of a better word, hotspots that perhaps you guys are keeping an eye on, whether it's in the U.S. or elsewhere? And I know, obviously, you've still got the merchant litigation going on in New York, and that's been partially settled. But we just love -- general perspective on how you're thinking about some of those things.

Sure. I mean as you said, regulation and nationalism are not new, right? They've been part and parcel of our business since the origins of Visa. In fact, a lot of the sort of things you hear today from various countries we dealt with in Europe 30, 40, 50 years ago when we first went to Europe, we provide a valuable service. We do it very well, we think. It's a service that most people on the planet need, the ability to digitize cash, the ability to make payments online. We can be very helpful to countries around the world and to financial institutions around the world with this service. Nationalism is understandable. Every country has their national interest. We've always believed that we need to work with regulators around the world to help them understand how we can help them achieve their objectives. Engaging is very important. And we have to figure out how we balance their national interest with what we need to do in our own business. As long as the market is open, as long as the playing field is reasonably level, we hope that we can participate in a way that is helpful to the country and build a nice business doing that, and that's been true. I mean there's only one country that has kept us out, and there's one country we chose to pull out of. But other than that, in most parts of the world, we play. And markets are open, and playing fields are level in some places, not so level in others, but that's fine, that's the nature of the game. In terms of -- it ebbs and flows. The priorities are different country by country. There's been a fair amount of interchange regulation all over the world, including the U.S. We've dealt with it. We all know sort what the implications of interchange regulation are. So we've sort of -- we think interchange is an important component of the mix. It is what allows financial institutions to invest in the business. There is no free lunch, right? Anything that's free is not going to be of high quality, and we've seen that around the world where national networks were created decades ago, and many of them have not been invested in, and some of them are now not as competitive as they need to be. And we do the best we can to ensure that when regulators get involved, that they have the best information to decide. There's a fair amount of talk in the U.S. We'll see how it all plays out. There was a fair amount of talk in Europe a year ago, and it's different in different parts of the world. But if you're going to own Visa stock, that's a dimension you have to pay attention to. It's certainly something we spend a lot of time on, but it's not something that's new.

Fair enough. I want to also ask you about Visa Installments. You announced that product last year. Maybe give us a little update on how that rollout has gone. I think it's kind of marketed really to issuers and to merchants both. So talk a little bit about the value proposition for that customer set and what you're seeing in terms of marketplace traction to date.

Sure. Yes. Look, from a buy now, pay later and installment business standpoint, this is not new to us. We've been doing this for years. There are many markets like Brazil and Mexico, Turkey, et cetera, that have had installments as part of their offering for years. So it's not new. And then many years ago, before it became sort of very visible, we were already working with Klarna, we had an investment in them. We were working with PAYD. We have an investment in them. So we've been in this -- playing with the BNPL players for a very long time. There's the obvious use case where our credentials are used to make the installment payments. That's very prevalent in the U.S., and it's prevalent in Canada, in many parts of the world. There's also the use case where we are used as a credential to pay the merchant. So the BNPL provider pays the merchant using our virtual credentials. Now there's a very important use case that most of the BNPL providers are finding very valuable where they embed our virtual credential in the app, right? So they give you a Visa credential, which is very valuable because they've signed you up. Now they have to go and sign up all these merchants. Just by embedding our credential in there, it's certainly accepted by all the merchants. Which is why I believe that in the long run, the open-loop version of BNPL is what's going to win because can you imagine how fast you can scale if you just partner with us as opposed to if you go try to sign up one merchant at a time. In terms of what we are doing for our existing customer base of financial institutions and merchants, we're trying to give them seamless solutions that they can use right away. So we enable it on our network, and we have simple APIs where an issuer can sign up where they can decide, okay, I want to offer Jason an installment proposition. So they can pick you. And when you go to a merchant, you already have your card. You're paying for it. They can make you an offer that says, okay, Jason, we can have you pay this in 4 installments. We have a similar API that can do it for merchants, makes it very seamless. Because one of the big problems here is getting people enrolled and the multiple programs and these merchants accept this one and that merchant accepts that one. We can solve all that for people by just enabling it on the card. So the only thing you need is you are a Visa cardholder or a Visa credential holder, and that makes you eligible either because of the merchant or because of the issuer to get an installment proposition. So we don't view installments as a threat, we view it as what we always do. We enable all forms of payment. We don't take winners and losers. If BNPL is the way people want to consume credit, or some people do, that's fine with us. And you're going to decide that. We're not. We don't pick winners and losers. If we did, that would be a serious mistake. We enable everybody, and then the marketplace decides what is the better way to do credit.

Right before the pandemic or like as the pandemic was hitting, you guys had your Analyst Day here in San Francisco. The theme or one of the key themes was the network of networks. And so would be curious just to get your thoughts now, 2-plus years later, how would you assess the effectiveness of that strategy as you found ways to move beyond the traditional core Visa network into some other payment flows?

Absolutely. I mean our work on networks is -- isn't a centerpiece of the future, right? And we're still in the early days of where we're going. The concept is very simple. The concept is that we want to move money, and we'll get your money wherever it needs to go. And if it needs to go into a bank account, fine. If it needs to go to one of our credentials, fine. We can do card-to-account, account-to-card, any combination of that. And if the money is to go from point A to point B and one part of the journey is not on our network, that's fine, too. So we want to have a single point of connection that can get your money wherever it needs to go. We're making great progress on that. Visa Direct is the biggest vehicle for doing that, already connects to 66 ACH networks, I believe, 7 or 8 RTP networks, 15-or-so card networks, multiple gateways and so on. So it's there right now. It's a matter of building the volumes. We can do it today. We're doing it today for a whole range of customers. And we can also provide value-added services on all these, whether it's tokenization through Bell ID or dispute resolution through Verifi or authentication through CardinalCommerce, et cetera, et cetera. This is how it's going to be in the long run. It's all part of having a Visa-branded service that delivers on the promise we have to you, which is it's reliable, it's secure, it's real time. You can get your money back if you make a mistake. It's tokenized, et cetera, et cetera. You don't care whether it was entirely on our network or not, right? You just want to get your money where it needs to go.

Yes. Right. I think we are out of time, unfortunately. This was terrific. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. Really appreciate it.