VNV Global AB (publ) (VNV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi, everybody. Welcome to VNV Global's Fourth Quarter and 12 Month Report Presentation. Per Brilioth will start with the presentation that will be followed by a Q&A session. In order to manage the Q&A in an efficient way, if you have questions, please use the Zoom Q&A function and type in your question, and we will address them following the presentation. Per, please go ahead.

Thank you, Bjorn, and thank you, everyone, for joining. We're doing this with Zoom, which is a first for us in these sort of circumstances, not by telephone, and that feels good. So welcome to Stockholm. It's like minus 1 outside, but we're in this cozy office. So Q4 results, we'll try to sum up the year since that's -- it's also the end of the year. I think all of you online know what we do, so I'm not going to bother you with our focus of network effects, big markets and strong founders, global mandate. But rather dig -- go straight into this last quarter, which is one of a mixed picture, at least, when we look at it in terms of financials. The NAV came in at SEK 1.4 billion, which is on a per share basis, just over $12, which in U.S. dollar terms, it's up 6% for the full year of 2021. For the quarter, though, that's down 13%. And that downtick is largely driven by Babylon, who is also now listed and which has had a wobbly start to a listed life and is down -- affects us by just over $180 million minus. So that's sort of the bulk of this sort of downtick, and Bjorn will go into the sort of the details of that later. But thankfully, and as per my sort of don't like New Year's Eve kind of ramp in the text, we don't invest in quarters. So we invest on not even 1 year, not even 2 years, but a much longer time horizon. But we report in this way in 12 months and quarterly. So hence, these figures sort of stack up and we report them in this way. Beyond that, I mean, the quarter had us being pretty active. We invested a total of just under $70 billion. The large investment is a newer and quite a mature one, which is also not our usual. As you know, we -- I mean, our usual sort of area is to invest in these companies super early when they're very young and then grow with them. But Bokadirekt, which is our largest investment in this quarter, $22 million, it's quite of mature company and I'll come back to that a little bit. We also invested into Voi. Babylon, listed on the New York Stock Exchange in SPAC. And we've got quite a bit of the portfolio that listed -- that is about to get listed over these coming quarters. Gett was the one that, during this last quarter, announced that it is going through a merger with a SPAC. we've raised liquidity. We raised some equity. We raised some money through an equity issue just before Christmas or in the latter part of last year. And we've also raised some liquidity in a bond placement, and that's after the quarter. That's just in the early parts of this year. The bulk of the SEK 1.2 billion that we raised will go to refinancing the bond that's maturing later this year. So that duration is now stretched out in another 3 years, which we feel is good. But that's about SEK 800 million, so there's about a SEK 400 million raised in terms of new liquidity. So we're ready to be optimistic over the course of this year to support the existing parts of the portfolio, but also to do new investments. And what else -- for the full year, I think the -- obviously, the larger investments that we've done over the 12 months that we're now closing apart from Bokadirekt, which actually clocks in as our second largest investment. we -- It feels like a long time ago, but we did invest about double that of quite about $38 million in the BlaBlaCar, that's in the early part of 2021. Voi, this quarter, $70 million convertible going into their next round, which we think is a pre-IPO around. We put $10 million into SWVL, come back to that. BestDoctor, another $10 million. That's -- BestDoctor is the Oscar Health or the Alan of France, but in the Russian version of best obviously, it's the Russian version of Oscar or Alan. We've also funded breakfast and collected food with about $7 million each during the quarter. As you know, we're very excited about our portfolio, our other portfolio, which is a lot of names in -- a lot of younger names. And some of that is structured to a scout portfolio, where we have scouts help us sort of source these investments. And then we have the ability to go into the captives directly in the following rounds. And we've done a couple of follow-ons from that -- in names that have been generated out of the scout portfolio. Carla, which I think I've spoken to all of you about earlier, our names, which we are super excited about, but come from the scout and that we have put more money to work outside of the scout. We also have cirplus, which is a marketplace for recycled plastic out of Germany. It's actually a BlaBlaCar alumni, the guy who started BlaBlaCar in Germany left a few years ago and started this marketplace. It's in our scout portfolio. It was in our scout portfolio. It still is in our scout portfolio, but -- that's a name that's come up, and we've invested more into outside of the scout portfolio. We've sold some Hemnet, which has been a good trade. It's about 50% of IRR, about 10x on money invested. We also sold Wallapop, which was a lower IRR and about mid-teens. And so there's a couple of exits in the portfolio. And if you look at the NAV over the full year, Hemnet has been a good contributor as SWVL and Voi. So that's sort of summing up this quarter and the full year. And if we go on, if you add them up to our 10-year history, this quarter being down sort of takes our 10-year IRR to just under 30%. I think last quarter, we closed at just over 30%. So it's around that 30% mark, which is really -- 30% IRR is what we're targeting when we do new investments. And so history shows that that's been okay. So the NAV per share in Swedish krona is just under SEK 1.10 if you -- as of the end of December. Now we all know that markets have been a touch wobbly to say the least. After that, if you -- if I don't know, NASDAQ is not a good -- it's not a perfect benchmark by any means to our portfolio. But if you adjust that market with the performance of NASDAQ during the course of 2022, we're down to maybe about SEK 100. Our stocks trading add a big discount to that. So our stock is taking a beating beyond the NAV in quite a serious way. So we're trading at about a 25% discount to the NAV even after a NASDAQ sort of inspired hit, if you will. Now thankfully, again, we don't invest on a quarterly basis. So we feel that the entirety of the portfolio has a very, very strong sort of outlook. And even if you have to be humble about multiples in times of volatility, I strongly feel that even if multiples sort of settle on a much, much lower sort of level than what we saw a year ago. I think this portfolio will give us the returns we're looking for and that we've seen historically by a wide measure. We can come back to that later. So I think 2 big developments during the quarter. I think the ones that if one is to sort of pick out 2, it's Babylon's listing and it's our investment into Bokadirekt. So Babylon listed, had a very wobbly start. I think it's fair to say, and I think you all agree with me that a lot of the reason for Babylon sort of falling on the back after its listing has to do with the sort of technicalities of the SPAC world in this -- during the autumn of 2021, which is a very different world to the one certainly in this SPAC world when Babylon took its decision to list to a SPAC, which was earlier in the year. So the risk appetite around SPAC, et cetera, changed a lot and redemptions were high. And that's one factor, which is very manageable for Babylon -- for a company like Babylon. But the other sort of result of that is that the free float and that was present upon listing was very low. And so there's basically no liquidity in the stock. The only people who can basically trade the stock or had stock to sort of sell were people who probably didn't know what Babylon even did. And I don't think this goes for Babylon only. I think this is relevant for any SPAC that's listed over this past quarter. And so -- and with risk appetite coming down, people who are in the stock for optionality reasons sold and sold into no liquidity environment, and the people who sort of are interested in the stock and see sort of the long-term benefits of it could not -- were not sort of presented with sort of the daily liquidity, the daily turnover in the stock that they need to get exposed, and hence, to do the work on the stock. So a very -- quite a large imbalance of supply/demand that's seen the stock sort of come off over the course of this quarter post sort of listing. And so one that's, in my view, at least, technical and does not reflect the sort of the long-term fundamentals for the company. And that's been also made further clear by the company upping their guidance for the full year of 2022. So the company a couple of weeks ago, issued a statement where they said that 2021 will come in sort of along the lines of what they had guided for in their listing prospectus, which is around $320 million. But more importantly, that their full year revenues for 2022 were too conservative in their listing sort of paperwork, which said just over $700 million. The new guidance put them at $900 million to $1 billion. So clearly, sort of very, very strong revenue and one that I think will get reflected in the valuation of this, if not short term, for sure for the medium term and the long term. And overall, sort of the company has grown immensely since we first invested. Number of lives that they cover is up from 1 million when we first got involved to about 24 million. So all in all, the company is doing super well, and revenue -- sort of revenue growth accelerating. And whilst we have to be careful of the amount of detail we provide on this company now that it's listed on the New York Stock Exchange, I think we really want to sort of leave you with the sense that we have that we're very comfortable in owning this. Someone said that the start of listed life for Babylon was very reminiscent of how Amazon traded when it first listed many years ago now. And that there was -- it didn't come out the door very well. People thought it was a low margin business and with low barriers to entry. But over time then, of course, Amazon is now what it is. And I really sort of adhere to that because if it looks like a low margin business today, we really feel that there's lots of potential here for this not only to become a very high-margin business, but of course, that it's pretty unique in its offering product-wise. And it's got a very, very large addressable market to go into. That's Babylon. I think the other one is our $22 million investment into Bokadirekt. So Bokadirekt is a marketplace, a SaaS business going to a marketplace, I think, is a better description for beauty services, health and beauty. It's Swedish now. Obviously, the Nordics is a natural expansion place. In Sweden, though, it's mature. It has -- it's reminiscent of Hemnet in many ways. It's a household name here in Sweden. If you -- which I think everyone knows about, it's very similar to Hemnet. And that's also -- that sort of very well brand name is reflecting a very dominant market position, which is really 10x to its closest peer, its closest competitor, again, reminiscent of Hemnet. So we feel that this is, in many ways, very similar to Booksy, which we already have in the portfolio. So very similar business model, Booksy, Polish business, grown international and is growing to become the largest business in the U.S., a much larger market, but the same starting point from the Software-as-a-Service business that has the potential sort of to pick up the upside of marketplace. And the marketplace aspect of this and so, of course, what we're looking for. So we really think that this is a 10x potential from where we have invested into and with a very sort of limited downside because of its strong position and strong brand name, and hence, a very, very good risk reward. See if I can take you, yes. So the portfolio overall is somewhat altered. I mean the overall structure of it is not -- it's the same as when we spoke a quarter ago. But Babylon had taken that beating and our NAV reflecting the price of the listed stock of Babylon, obviously now. Well, obviously, I mean, it's got a low liquidity. So it's not obvious, but it's -- I think we sort of -- our view is that it's the way to go for our pricing of Babylon and our NAV. So that's come off. It's only 16%. It's about the same level as Voi. And these 6 largest assets, which used to make up about 70% portfolio, it's about 65% of the portfolio. But the overall structure of the portfolio is one that you are familiar with since earlier quarters. Also the sector, the different sectors, or as I like to describe them, difference from macro themes are also similar, mobility being the larger one now that digital health has come off with Babylon marketplace and there are some others. And if that other piece is to sort of be described in sector themes or in macro themes, it will decline. That's the fourth one. There's more and more sustainability/climate stuff that's coming our way and that we're also invested into. Perhaps Olio being the biggest one, and we can come back to that. But I think it's important to point out, as always, though, that what we invest into is not -- we're not a mobility investor. We're not a digital health investor. We are a network effect investors. Network effect is what we look for, large markets, strong founders. And then we found ourselves in these very, very interesting macro themes, but we're not sort of mobility investors per se. So again, important to point out. Yes, we continue to sort of picture this, developed markets versus emerging markets. And this is perhaps because we feel that we're maybe more well known in the emerging market world where we've spent most of our years. If you go back to 1997, we're maybe more well known as an emerging market investor. But the fact is that the bulk of our portfolio is from Europe and the U.S. and exposed to global markets more than emerging markets. But again, we -- I mean, we are -- and I should say that's probably reflective also in our -- the next-generation portfolios. Now we have a lot of stuff that's more catering to global markets than emerging markets. But we are -- we're just very optimistic. If we look and we have a very good sort of deal flow from our -- from emerging markets as we do from more sort of developed markets, Western Europe and the U.S. So -- but the portfolio right now is more exposed to the Western world than emerging markets. And then coming into sort of putting this portfolio in the perspective of the nature of its liquidity. Obviously, the green parts of this portfolio is the listed part. Hemnet listed in April last year. Babylon during the autumn. Babylon has come off. Hemnet has come up. SWVL is about to list now in Q1, get -- probably get out there in Q2. Voi and BlaBlaCar are -- have both alluded to the intention to list, although that's probably lack a year out for both of those. We -- those large 6 names are names that we've been in for a long time, but there's also a lot of activity in the portfolio outside of those larger names, which are maybe more important, are the most sort of important drivers of our NAV and our, hence, our stock price over the short term. But over the long term, we feel that there's a lot of room that will become -- a lot of room to grow in the rest of the portfolio. That's not -- that will make it -- that will sort of grow into becoming pretty large names and maybe compete for the sort of largest 6 or largest 10, perhaps over this coming year. So there's a handful, there's quartets of names that all are big enough to sort of be noticeable versus the larger 6. And of those, I think Booksy and Borzo will probably be the ones that will capture attention over this coming sort of first half of 2022. But importantly, there is also this other part, which is where -- I mean, our next Avito or our next thing call for our next Babylon, Voi is probably already in the portfolio. It's -- and it's in this other part where there's just a 50-odd names, which all have the potential sort of to grow into the same sort of companies that -- like the ones I just mentioned. And so our work right now is -- has a lot to do about funding them and to make sure that we capture the upsides that are present in that part of the portfolio. Now I did -- before we go into the actual details of the sort of the valuation and how this NAV stacks up, I mean we're talking now because we have to report on a quarterly basis. And the quarterly sort of reports is very much our balance sheet and NAV. And Bjorn is joining us today to sort of walk you through some more details in that. So that feels all good. But before we go into that, just on a general note, on the portfolio that we haven't touched. I think maybe the most important one is the one that will catch the headlines the soonest, which is SWVL. So as we've talked about earlier, I think SWVL is about to get listed. It filed its latest F4 draft just before Christmas, which puts it now on the time line to get listed during this quarter, I think well within the quarter. But that company, yes, continues to perform. I think the last guidance is for a revenue base for 2022 of just over $150 million, which we think probably is conservative. So big growth on previous numbers. And they've done a couple of acquisitions of late, which now has them operating in 115 cities, so a very, very different -- and this is not 115 cities in Egypt alone. This is 115 cities across 18 countries in many different continents. So this is really a different picture from the SWVL where we got going with, which is basically a Cairo operation. This business model has really proved to be one that's demanded on a global basis. And the product that the company has and the team it has a capacity to really become a global business. Much what we sort of -- we were excited about when we got involved with SWVL, but now that's really coming to life. Gett, we believe, is on a track to -- and which was announced during the Q4 during this last quarter, to be also listed during this first half, but that's probably more a Q2 event. And Voi and BlaBlaCar in terms of listings, yes, they have alluded to it, but the time line for that is a little bit later. Both of those countries -- both of those companies, I should say, are obviously in the transportation sector, one that have been very differently affected by COVID. Voi has had a big sort of positive push as people inside cities like here and not wanted to go on the metro or the bus, but have opted to go on -- move around the city using different means and that's been a big sort of tailwind for these E-scooter platforms. Voi is the largest in Europe, by any measure. That's reflected in the round they did also, which closed just before Christmas. And they're just performing very well. BlaBlaCar though, long distance travel has been more affected negatively by COVID. But we've seen very, very strong signals during the autumn that this is a product that's very, very much in demand as society starts to progress sort of out of COVID and now -- and then it closes again, but -- as we've seen now with Omicron, et cetera. But it's been really encouraging to see how in demand this product is and the activity that is seen during the autumn. And so that's a good sort of pointer to what's to come when we move out of COVID properly. Now I wanted -- before we go into the details, I wanted to -- I missed the slide, maybe the most important slide, which is this one. And so one other big announcement that we've done today as part of this report is that we've expanded the team here around VNV in a big way. And so we have 4 new colleagues joining us around about now. The expansion of the investment team, I should say, is one that's a reflection of that our portfolio has grown a lot, both in terms of the overall NAV going up to $1.4 billion. But perhaps more importantly, that the number of names now is a 60-odd sort of names that make up the bulk of our portfolio, 10 are large but 50 are smaller. And although we don't aim to impose ourselves on these founders in any way, we try to make very, very clear that we are not here to run these companies. I think it's -- we do -- and our support for these companies are more on demand. But what -- the expansion of -- so the expansion of our team reflects sort of growing complexity in terms of size and number of names, et cetera, in the portfolio. But it also allows us to be close to the companies in our portfolio, but importantly, not -- but still not imposing ourselves on these founders, if you will. But I think being closed allows us to act very swiftly when these companies do need help in funding, for example. So we felt that, that was a necessary expansion to do and sort of super and super happy and proud really that we sort of added these 4 names to the portfolio. So Daan is -- we've known for many years now. He comes from Naspers, having run part of their OLX portfolio. And before that run his own company and before that ran part of eBay. And so that is a person that we've known for a very long time and that brings a senior capacity into our team that we're very sort of happy to have join us. A little bit of a different background from us. Naspers is, of course, a fantastic role model in the kind of risk taking that they have within themselves. But also their sort of background in terms of running companies and running a lot of large operations is one that Daan has been present in, but also present in their investing mode and their risk taking mode. But that brings sort of capacity to our team that we don't really have today and that we think we will be able to -- we'll be very sort of constructive in applying to our portfolio. So Tessa has worked closely with Daan over the years, but more recently come from Peak, which is a Venture Capital firm in Holland that we admire a lot. And before that, had a long stand at FJ Labs. FJ Labs, which she was part of co-funding, together with Fabrice Grinda. Fabrice Grinda is of course, one of the stars of the classified world having been one of the founders of OLX. And so very much a person that we've looked up to. So we're super happy to have Tessa join us with that kind of background. More importantly, perhaps is that Tessa, I think, is -- will be the only one in our team that has actually run a couple of startups herself. And that's something that us lot here has not done. We've been here, we've been taking risk on startups. But to actually have run a start-up, founded a start-up and have been part of taking those tough decisions and the anguish that comes from running sort of a young company is one that I think is very valuable when you talk to people in the same position. Dennis, we got to know through Voi. He was -- he is friends with the founding team at Voi. And after that, he joined Boston Consulting Group, and we're very happy to sort of steer him our way. And finally, Sasha Trofimov is the person that we have been known for the longest. We've been in touch with Sasha around capital markets in Eastern Europe for the past 20 years. And he brings a lot of experience from the banking side of the world, but also a very high intellectual capacity that we think will sort of add a lot of value to the team around here. So Daan and Tessa will be based in our newly opened office in Amsterdam. Dennis is going to sit here next to me and Bjorn. Sasha will base on our office in Cyprus. So a bit more geographical dimensions to our company, which I think is a good reflection of the portfolio that we have, which is very international. So I think with that, Bjorn, if I could ask you to walk us through the numbers with this.

Thank you. If you can move to the next slide as well. Yes. I'll quickly go through the NAV buildup as per year in 2021 and cover the main drivers of the NAV movement during the quarter. And as Per said, SEK NAV per year in 2021 was SEK 109.63 per share compared to SEK 122.5 for September 30, which is down roughly 10.5% in SEK or 13.5% in USD. And of course, our largest holding, Babylon, is now a public listed company. Has seen weak trading since the completion of their listing process during the quarter, resulting in a 42% decline in fair value or some SEK 181 million over the quarter and making up the bulk of the overall NAV movement of $209 million during the quarter. Voi. Our Voi mark of $226 million is unchanged in our books over the quarter and still based on its latest equity transaction that was completed during the third quarter. During the fourth quarter, we also invested an additional $70 million in Voi in the form of convertible notes. Our equity holding in BlaBlaCar is valued at $141 million. And that's based on the revenue multiple-based valuation model as per year-end 2021 and down roughly 8% over the quarter, mainly driven by compressed peer multiples. SWVL and Gett are both in ongoing listing processes via their respective SPAC and still value on the basis of revenue multiples valuation models as per year in 2021. SWVL is valued at $160 million, also down some 8% during the quarter, driven by the same compressed peer multiples. Our holdings at Gett is valued at $140 million, which is down only some 1% over the quarter. And that's mainly driven by revised revenue expectations for 2022 on the upside that countered the negative impact of compressed peer multiples. Following our remaining holding in Hemnet, also listed here in Stockholm was down some 5% over the quarter and valued at $58 million at year-end 2021. During the quarter, we received proceeds from our second partial sale of Hemnet shares in the amount of $22 million. For the full year 2021, we have sold some Hemnet shares in the amount of $39 million all in all. And all of this compared to our original investment amount of $10 million. Property Finder is valued at $47 million based on revenue multiple-based valuation model as per year-end 2021, which is up 18% over the quarter and despite slightly compressed multiples in the classified space. And this is primarily driven by strong trading during the end of 2021 and we raised -- revised top line expectations for 2022 on the upside. Finally, one of our smaller holdings worth highlighting is HungryPanda, which is as per year-end valued at $22 million based on a new funding round that closed just before Christmas, which is approximately 41% up compared to our mark as per third quarter 2021. I'll stop there for the main holdings, and we will open up for Q&A. And as a reminder, please use to Q&A function in Zoom to type your questions, and we'll address them going forward.

Great. So how should we do this, Bjorn? Should we -- do you want to read out the questions?

Sure. Sure. So first question here. You showed the value-creating activity around VNV bond issues, capital raises and buybacks with a bigger share of list companies in the VNV portfolio that you know how, for the longer term, could we see you buying shares in the listed companies in your portfolio if they are volatile like Babylon?

Yes. No, I think it's very unlikely that you'll see us actually buying the listed shares of the company, at least on an opportunistic basis. The way sort of we reason -- and forgive me if I've already sort of mentioned this in sort of the overall presentation, but the way we reason when our private hold has become sort of public is that we'll hold on to them if we feel we can add value and if they sort of fit our return profile. So our minimum return in our portfolio will be like a 20% sort of return profile. And if they hit that, and we obviously -- if we feel that they have that sort of annual return profile going forward, we can hold them. And the other sort of checking the box, if you will, would be that we are close to the companies. We are Board members, and we have a history with the companies, allowing ourselves to sort of maybe have a larger, higher visibility into what's going on. So the combination of those 2 allows us to stay as holders when our private holdings become public holdings. But I think it's unlikely that you'll see us sort of engaged in Babylon now where we obviously feel Babylon now is a very, very interesting investment, the way it's trading. But we'll leave it to our shareholders or whoever it may be to sort of get -- to buy that stock. So I think it's very unlikely that you'll see us sort of actually get engaged in terms of buying stock, however cheap we may feel they are in the listed part of our portfolio. Having said that, of course, we -- one way that we gain further exposure to the companies in our portfolio, also the listed ones, is by buying back our own stock. And as you know, we've been an active buyer of our own stock over these past 10 years. And we've sort of distributed capital to the order of $750 million to shareholders, mainly in the form of buybacks and over these past 10 years. And the last sort of buyback we did was just before Christmas. And I think it's fair to describe the way we think about this is that we -- when we look at new investments, we always compare it to the alternatives on one very real alternative for us is to buy back our own stock. And we can buy back a portfolio that we believe a lot at a discount than we've demonstrated very clearly, I think the will to do that. So I think that will be the way in which we sort of get more indirect exposure to also the listed part of our portfolio. Long-winding answer to -- but hopefully covers what the question was looking for.

Another question on volatility. Some listed tech names are now down some 70% to 80% from the 52 weeks high. Have you seen similar activity in private markets in general?

No. No, I haven't. And I think private markets are obviously not minute-to-minute, day-to-day kind of volatility. They don't have that in them in the same way that public markets do. So the best private companies -- the best from private companies which I'd like to think, and I strongly believe that our portfolio make up a crop that can be described amongst in that kind of category. Those companies are well run and they're also well run in terms of liquidity and fundraising. And the best companies will not be forced to raise money in difficult times. And hence, sort of if the public market takes a no style, the best run private markets will be, no, we're not looking to sort of raise money at these levels because we don't have to. And then there are no new marks in that sense. So you don't get that volatility in private market as you do in public markets. If that kind of volatility does in contrast to what I've just said and happen, then we are ready to take advantage of them. And so yes, but the short answer to the question is no. The private markets are not that volatile as public markets.

Thank you. And then a question relating to the team expansion. Why did you hire 4 at once? And how will this change your own role back?

I don't think my role changes much. This adds capacity to me, Bjorn and the others here to do the sort of same work that we've done for, I think, for quite a long time now. And I think we -- this company has been run with a very small team for a very long time. And I think maybe a too small team. And then I think it's really sort of me talking to Daan, who eventually sort of -- is now -- he's now joined us, is on a full-time basis, and got increasing sort of realization that it would be very beneficial for us if we increase the team here but without sort of changing the culture of how we work and the structure of how we're working. So I think the team that has come in very much shares the kind of culture that we have. And I don't think you'll sort of -- when you meet us and when you talk to us in the future, I think you'll get the sense that we operate in a very, very similar way because all these people coming in sort of share the sort of the kind of mindset that we have in-house now. But it just gives us more capacity to look at the new investments that come our way. And I think with VNV Global, as that brand becomes sort of well known, the deal flow that's coming our way is accelerating. So it's good to have capacity to sort of be able to sift through that deal flow and decide what makes sense for us to get engaged in and what not to get engaged in. But also to my earlier point, the operating experience from startups with Dennis at Voi, Tessa running her own things, and Daan, obviously, running very, very large operations at OLX, gives us capacity to another dimension in terms of capacity to understand the companies that come our way and to make sort of, hopefully, good decisions around those.

Thank you. And another question on Gett and SWVL and the respective SPAC transactions. Are you expecting redemption rates in SWVL and Gett transactions similar to that of Babylon or have these companies taken any measures to avoid this?

It's difficult to say. I think the SPAC market overall, regardless of how good the companies have -- are, have seen very high redemptions of late, which is a reflection of that the risk appetite from the hedge fund world has changed. And so it's been a less sort of effective way to get listed. But once you've started and you're starting going down that route, it's more practical sort of to finish it. And I should also say, like Babylon has shown and SWVL and Gett are in very good positions to also sort of execute on is that there are opportunities to getting listed opens up sort of funding opportunities. And so there are mechanisms and there are funding routes that are available to these companies that allow them to be -- to become sort of to raise the kind of money that they the need to raise, they want to raise despite the redemption levels being higher than what we thought maybe a year ago.

Thank you. Another general question here is, is VNV company sensitive to interest rates increasing?

Yes. No, I think every company, every equity investment is, right, or any financial investment is. And I was trying to sort of point out in our Q4 report here now is that one part of -- one way, so all these -- everything we do is about discounting future cash flows, right? And the discount factor in that sort of equation becomes very, very important. Part of that discount factors is the interest rate. And when the interest rate goes from 1% to 3%, that's -- or 1% to 2%, 1% to 4%, whatever it is, that's a negative aspect. But I think what's going on right now is that you have the interest rate, but you also have the risk premium on top of that and that risk premium is very affected by uncertainty. So we have maybe a blown up risk premium now due to a lot of uncertainty. We don't know where interest rates will sort of stabilize, if it's at 2%, 3% or 4%. But -- and then there's all sorts of other risks out there, some geopolitical in Eastern Europe and some in Asia and just the uncertainty around where interest rates will stabilize. But one thing we know is that, that volatility will die down and then uncertainty will decrease, the risk premium will decrease. And then I think we're in a very, very interesting environment compared to where the levels we're trading at now. But yes, just on a clinical sort of answer, interest rates going up, affects us negatively. It's no way about that.

And there is another question on Bokadirekt. What is the development plans for Bokadirekt after the recent funding round, looking at the fact that they're already a leader in Sweden, do they have the ambition to move abroad as well with their platform or just digging deeper in its home market?

Yes. So I guess I'm not at liberty to sort of talk about their M&A plans. But I think our view there in general is that it's -- although it's in contrast to Hemnet, where it's very reassuring, I think, that they are in Sweden and they're in Sweden alone, and there are no ventures outside of Sweden because the markets outside of Sweden are very -- are sort of populated by similar outage to Hemnet, which have very large -- have a very high very stranded in the space of this beauty SaaS going to marketplace environment, I think the opportunities on geographical expansion is much more promising. But I think it's fair to say that if Bokadirekt, in a very similar fashion to Booksy now, has its sort of base in the soft services to these sort of enterprises, these small businesses rather than enterprises, the investments, the liquidity that Bokadirekt now has gives them the opportunity to also grow into marketplace. That's sort of, I think, the best way to, in general terms, decide -- describe on what's about -- what the use of proceeds for this issue.

And a question related to Babylon, SWVL and Gett, when would you expect liquidity in Babylon to improve? And would you expect SWVL and Gett to have the same challenges going out?

Yes. I think there's the typical sort of lockup in any listing, SPAC listing or an IPO listing, has a 6-month duration. So after that lockup, you, at least on paper have a larger free float. And although people like us who are more buyers and sellers at these levels, if we could -- I mean, for certain, no sellers even at sort of the listing prices, less alone the prices where they're trading now, the free flow -- technical free flow at least goes up. And that's sort of the first sort of step to this becoming -- to the daily turnover and the stock becoming better. So I think for all those names, it's that 6-month lockup, that's the important one to follow.

Great. I think we've covered most of the questions here, and it seems our hour is running up. So I think we close the Q&A session with that. And yes, please, Per.

Thanks. This is the first time we do this on Zoom. It sort of feels a little bit like the Capital Markets Day. I feel and now I feel better for what our portfolio companies get subject to when they do these Zoom things. But thanks for joining, and we'll do this again in 3 months. And in the meantime, you know where to find us if you -- if there's anything else you want to kick around. All right. Thank you, everyone.

Thank you.