VNV Global AB (publ) (VNV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right.

Thanks, Bjorn, and thanks, everyone, for joining for our Q1 conference call. Bjorn is joining me for this call. Most of you have met Bjorn. Bjorn is my wingman here at VNV, been here for 10 years. [And thus] all the things I do, that also runs our -- builds our [NAV] essentially. So we'll be a little bit more granular on that starting from 2022, and this is the first call of 2022. Now I am going to share with you a screen, which happens like this, and I hope you can see my screen now, and I'll use this presentation to walk us through this report. All right. Well, Q1, all of you know what we're doing. [This doesn't quite work, as I intended it to do. But anyway, you get the picture. I hope you see the picture. Bjorn, you're seeing the picture, right?]

Yes.

Yes. Okay. So new colleagues. I think we -- you -- I think you -- this is not sort of entirely new. But Bjorn and I, on the investment team have been joined by, Adrian has been here for a while, but Dennis, is based in Sweden, [Dan and Tessa] are from Amsterdam, Sasha, based in Cyprus. So that's not new for the quarter, and you've got ample opportunities to meet these people. We're planning a fiscal in [Relief] Capital Markets Day this year, either before summer or just after summer, we'll come back to you on that, and then there will be opportunities to meet these people. I thought I'd go straight into the quarter and get to some -- yes, what's been going on here. So it's -- by way of intro, it's, yes, It's a down quarter. It's no other way about it. We're down 16% in dollar terms. This is driven by different things, but obviously, our Russian portfolio, we've written down to nearly 0. And that was the Russia, Ukraine portfolio, just under 4%. That's gone down to roughly 0 for maybe obvious reasons. Obviously, our listed portfolio has fallen with the market overall. And as you all know and as [Bjorn] will tell you much more about, we have also -- I mean, the parts of the portfolio that are not -- that doesn't have a recent transaction with value on the back of a model, that model uses a listed peer group, and that differs from company to company, obviously, but typically any part of that peer group or any peer group for any company have all sort of suffered in the sell-down in public markets of late, and hence, hence, that's also a tick down in the portfolio. It's not all tick downs, there are some tick ups and I'll come back to you on those. There's also investment work being done, where this African company [Indiscernible], is the biggest investment, and I'll come back to that, too. But in terms of activity over the quarter, we have been active. We refinanced our bond. The bond that was maturing later this year, was refinanced with a new 3-year bond with a fixed coupon rate of 5%. And we increased the liquidity a little bit by not only refinancing the bond maturity this year, but also we took on a little bit more liquidity, which we have in the portfolio now, which is helpful. We have repurchased shares during the quarter. We repurchased some shares during last -- the fourth quarter and then some more during this quarter. Obviously, the stock has been very weak, and we can come back to some general thoughts about that. But -- and in terms of other work or sort of more portfolio relevant stuff, Swivel obviously, went public through [Indiscernible] now. It's traded down post the sort of the first day of listing. As of March 31st, it contributed positively, but it has since fallen and we are -- and if you take it on a mark-to-market basis, our NAV -- our reported NAV of the end of the quarter at March 31st was SEK 95 -- this goes down to just under SEK 90, if you take Swivel's market price today. But where we're trading, we're still trading at a 50% or so, discount to NAV, which is, of course, a reflection of that, there's a [little] large uncertainty around long-duration markets. I think -- and all of you will have sort of will be more reversed [Indiscernible], but I think a prime driver behind that is the sort of the state of the world, especially in terms of inflation, that impact on interest rates and the uncertainty around interest rates and where they will top out, I think markets now sort of on a very sharp basis is factoring in like 3% short-term interest rates in the U.S., but that will go 4%. I sort of sense that us being at 50% is maybe pricing up -- pricing in even further interest rate sort of levels higher than that, but that's very difficult to sort of say, given the fluidity, I think that's the word in markets overall. Thankfully, of course, and if we stay on this sort of note, -- we invest not quarter-by-quarter, but we invest for typically a 10-year period or we sell a [founders sell] and these sort of cycles, -- up and down cycles, we'll see more up and down cycles before we're done with these companies. And we remain very sort of enthusiastic and bullish about the companies that we have in the portfolio. They're disrupting large markets with the benefits of a business [model] of network effects, which builds very high [Indiscernible] on the downside and hence become defensible on the downside, providing very good risk rewards. I think that's just important to remember in days like this. And I feel strongly that regardless where exit multiples may be, that we'll deliver our minimum sort of hurdle rate and beyond in -- from the -- [Technical Difficulty]. So I think we'll deliver our -- we get paid a 20% IRR. I think this portfolio will deliver way beyond that from the current NAV. So -- and with the discount of that sort of very, I think, interesting upside. But on Swivel, back to SWVL, the company is now [at least] trading. It's got access to public markets in terms of financing. And that's great. It is financed. The company is doing very well. And so -- and it now has the funding sort of to increase that. I think further, I'll come back to [Indiscernible] a little bit, but one negative contributor in the NAV development this quarter is of course [Jet], which we've written down to about [$60 million position] for us, which is -- the background to that is obviously that well, first, they pulled [us] back, which I think is good. [Space] -- I mean, we see the process, but they're also definitely the minuses of that. But -- and that has us on the back of a model also increasing sort of the discount factor on the back of that, there's a little bit more uncertainty on the funding of that company. But furthermore, in terms of modeling here, we compare it to a listed peer group. And the obvious sort of peers are [Indiscernible] and the multiples have fallen. So that's obviously impacted this negatively. And finally, they used to have a business in Russia. They discontinued that business during the quarter because it was negative -- well, because of obvious reasons, Russia, but also that was a situation where it was not cash flow positive and hence discontinued that, which is a good decision. But when you multiply multiples to, for example, revenues that has some impact, and that's now -- that's also contributed to the company being marked down in the portfolio this quarter. We remain enthusiastic around the company, its business in the U.K., especially Israel is doing very, very well. [Travelers] coming back and the competitive picture is very favorable for them, especially in Israel, their biggest competitor is Yandex. Yandex is, of course, not in a good position because of the obvious reasons. So this market, I think, is right for now, but it may prove conservative going forward. And we are very active around the company and to see that they navigate this period well. I think also, I think, see if we can use this portfolio, we have SEK 95 per share, net asset value end of March. If you mark-to-market on the back of that, you're down to just under 90%, still a very high discount. Bjorn will go through the details of this. But before we get to that, I'll just take you through some other high-level comments. So portfolio structure wise, due to the fact that Babylon also followed sort of tech markets down and fallen and we remain very sort of constructive and upbeat about this company over the long term, I don't think -- I think there's a lot of upside on the table from where it's priced now in public markets, but we price it quarter-by-quarter to public markets, and that's had it fall to become only the second largest position in our portfolio at 12%. Voi is unchanged in our portfolio and hence, -- has hence become the largest position in the portfolio at some 18%. Now I think this warrants some comments. I did try to sort of talk about this in my intro to the quarter report. From a distance, I can sort of sense people raising their eyebrows [Indiscernible] is Voi unchanged when markets are doing, like they're doing. And for example, from a distance also a good [Indiscernible] falling like it has in the SPAC market, but we feel strongly that the mark we have for Voi, which is based on a transaction that -- we had a recent transaction in the company, but it's also further supported by the modeling work we do, that's -- that we feel that, that is the true picture for this is a reflection about the company just doing very, very well and has, during the quarter, grown significantly in terms of operations, revenues, [rights], it's up 140% year-on-year. But furthermore, it has added licenses. And as you will all be familiar to, in Europe, especially, this business model is operated on the licenses from city governments, and it picked up maybe the most attractive license in the world being that the license to operate this platform in Oslo. Oslo is the best market for these [Indiscernible] platforms in the world in terms of profitability, driven by a number of rides per day, usage, et cetera, et cetera. So hence, also maybe the most competitive place on earth and Voi, just sort of sweeping the table with all competition and coming out very much on top in that licenses, I think, is a very good indicator that the company is very well set up to become -- to continue to be the leader of this space in Europe and also creates -- attracts a lot of attention. So that license is a very big sort of milestone for the company. But during the quarter, they also picked up other licenses in Scandinavia, [Indiscernible] and it -- continues to sort of be the largest player in Europe. And so -- I mean, if markets have been unchanged, this would have definitely been revalued upwards, but it's stable now, which is, if you will, a downtick if markets have been sort of stable, but that's a brief sort of background to why the company is -- why we carry it at the level we're carrying it at. This sort of sector division here is roughly the same. Mobility is up to 50% for obvious reasons. I mean for the reasons I just mentioned. Marketplace in Digital are still there. Developed markets remains the largest sort of geographical presence that we have, all this lot of work being done in -- also in emerging markets. So three companies in the portfolio listed now being listed is, of course, a drag on the NAV, but it's -- we'll mark our NAV in terms of those listed companies from where they're trading at the end of each quarter. But it's also positive in that it provides some ability to liquidity. The only one that we have sold on the [Indiscernible] is Hemnet -- but we still have a large position of Hemnet in the portfolio. But that's in some sort of exit case, if you will, where [SWVL] and Babylon I think, has a lot of upside from where they're trading and are not on our sell list despite them being listed. And I think I've spoken to most of you about this, that our sort of -- our thinking in terms of listed versus unlisted, we are investors into unlisted assets. I mean we get involved way, way before they have any ability to list. And typically, right, we use to -- use our permanent capital so we can invest at very early stages. But we -- you should not expect us to be investors into listed assets. That's not what we do, although the pricing of some listed assets, I know has some of the best investors that I know of in the VC space starting to focus only on listed assets right now rather than unlisted assets. But us being public, ourselves is a different story, our shareholders, you guys can invest into list the equities yourself. We won't invest into that, but we don't have to kick them out on the day that they become listed, especially if two factors are -- two boxes are checked, and one is that we see a remaining upside that sort of exceeds our minimum hurdle rate of 20% per year. And if we're close to the companies -- remain close to the company's board seats typically and have larger visibility into the operations. That's where both of those boxes are very much for [SWVL] and Babylon, Hemnet maybe less so and hence, sort of the logic of that having been sold down a bit in previous quarters. And then there's a lot of activity in the remaining part of the portfolio outside of these largest names. What I thought I'd get to a little bit is to talk to you about the two new investments or -- yes, so on new investment, which is [Wasoko]. It used to be called Sokowatch. We had a small position in this in the portfolio pre this quarter, where we upped our stake in around that where -- which we were the single biggest investment investor, but Tiger in their partnership with Avenir [Indiscernible]. So we have become a large shareholder in the company. We own 4% as of today. it's the leading B2B marketplace in Africa, essentially being the marketplace between the corner store and the likes of Unilever, Johnson & Johnson, Procter & Gamble, which previously or still is basically inhabited by many, many middleman, which makes sort of the operations of the cornerstore very difficult, but replacing them with this kind of model gives the merchant at the end of the -- on the demand side of the marketplace, a completely sort of different sort of operating environment where they can sort of plan for product when they're delivered, how their priced, et cetera, et cetera, which is not possible today. This is an enormous market. This's a $600 billion retail sector across Africa, which Wasoko is the leading player to dig into, and it's just growing a lot. And it's really, really fascinating to see how emerging markets like the countries that Asocois active in Kenya as the core and the neighboring countries are now providing sort of ample ground for these kind of companies, which are -- become large digital companies, just basically from the fact that the infrastructure of mobile connectivity is now present in a way where you can build these very, very large profitable companies. So I think this is yet to be profitable, that it's on a clear track [Indiscernible] economics are very strong, and we are very excited to be a larger shareholder in this company. The other one, which I thought has contributed positively to the portfolio in this quarter. And so just also focusing on those, not only the drags, -- [housing] anywhere has been in our portfolio for quite a few years, that's been small, and it's only now sort of starting to get to a size where we notice -- where it becomes a potential contributor to -- important contributor to the NAV and hence, the share price in the shorter term. So we own 30% of this company now valued at some $40 million. And this is essentially an Airbnb for medium-term rentals in Europe. The pricing of it now is a reflection of that we -- there's a round down basically now that that was done on the back of the companies continuing to consolidate the market in Europe. They bought their largest French competitor and this is on the back of buying their largest competitor in the Holland, it is a Dutch company. So it's really starting to become the only player with this very sort of very asset-light marketplace, really Airbnb type of model, which we think is very, very interesting. It's got a lot of tailwinds in terms of this rental -- the whole rental space is moving online, Airbnb of course been a big, big sort of provider of visibility into that. But also the other sort of interesting aspect of this is that the total addressable market is just enormous. I mean if you look at Europe and U.S. across those two, you're looking at trillions of dollars, but only in the markets where housing anywhere is present. This is a market that nearly gets up to some $50 billion if you include the payment solutions that they are helping their market to address. What else? I think -- yes, the only other two things I thought I'd mention is also that BlaBlaCar, of course, is down a bit on the quarter. It's down a bit because multiples that we use model for -- this is based on the model, you [Indiscernible] back to that must have come down. But I think it's important to note that, yes, they have operations in Russia. Now those -- that's essentially market zero, but that downtick is basically neutralized by the fact that this company has done super well in the rest of the world, and that's a reflection of that, obviously, petrol prices are high and there's a large [incentive] now across many of our companies, but it's very visible in BlaBlaCar to -- from customers to sort of become more efficient on transport and this is obviously car sharing. And so to share the cost of the petrol, it's become much, much more important. And it's getting BlaBlaCar a lot of attraction. You see sort of going away from fossil fuel transportation is also obviously benefiting the likes of Voi and yet but BlaBlaCar, it's -- this is specifically sort of interesting here. The other positive contributor during the quarter is Booksy, which I think Bjorn will come back to. So I think enough rambling for me, and I'll hand over to Bjorn to take us through the buildup of the NAV in more detail.

Thank you, Per. Yes, I'll go through the NAV buildup and the main movements during the quarter. But before I just wanted to remind everyone that if you want to ask a question, the easiest way is to use the Q&A function here in Zoom, and we will go through that in the Q&A following this short piece from me. But going down the portfolio size-wise here, Voi, as Per mentioned, unchanged value based on the latest real acquisition transaction that was completed in August 2021. This is supported with our internal valuation model. And as Per touched upon, of course, you have a negative impact from the market volatility and [Indiscernible] in general, but given Voi's strong performance that model comes in line with that last equity transaction, which we deem is the best fair value estimate of Voi as per the end of March. Big negative contributor to NAV is, of course, [Indiscernible] listed that has continued to see weak trading in the market, which is down some $84 million for our position during the quarter. [SWVL] closed up the first day of trading, which was on March 31st, so a positive $16 million, but has since also similar relevant to other [stacks] in weak trading in the recent weeks. And bar rebound in the share will have a further negative effect during this quarter. I'll come back to the pro forma now if you adjust for Babylon, [SWVL] and Hemnet who are in the list of companies in the portfolio. BlaBlaCar, based on our typical EV revenue model is down some 14% over the quarter. Here again, the main drivers, lower peer multiples, adjusting out the Russia exposure that they had, while on the positive side, very strong demand coming from high gas prices across other markets. [Indiscernible] again, Per touched upon also held at the EV revenue model, large fair value change during the quarter. Of course, that is mainly driven by the pull of the SPAC listing plans and overall market volatility and compressed peer multiples and finally, closing of the Russian business, that as [Indiscernible] 2021 accounted for some 14% of their direct gross profit. On the positive side, we have Booksy, which last quarter, we still held on the last equity transaction that was done in October 2020, it is rather old real transaction, now moving to [digital] model and despite that peers are down, the company's strong performance since October 2020 and outlook for this year and beyond more than ways up so Booksy is a positive contributor with some $40 million during the quarter. Housing Anywhere, again, a positive contributor with some $60 million over the quarter to the NAV based on new equity transaction that was completed during this first quarter of 2022 in connection with the latest acquisition. And finally, going to the other equity investments line, which is down some $57 million over the quarter, and that's mainly that Russia-specific exposure, which we written down to nearly 0, some 90% compared to year-end. And all in all, this results in NAV of just shy of $1.2 billion or $10.22 per share which is 16% down over the quarter. And in [Indiscernible], that's down to [Indiscernible], which is down 13% from our year-end NAV of [109 and 60]. And finally, adjusting that for the current trading of Babylon, SWVL, Hemnet, and [FX]. As per yesterday's close, we end up at NAV of some $950 per share or [Indiscernible]. And with that, I think we'll move on to Q&A.

Yes, [Technical Difficulty].

I have got [down] a few questions here, which I thought I'll keep over to you if it's relevant, Par?

Yes. I could do that and good that people got this that the Q&A format nowadays is sort of that you're punching the questions in the chat function on the Q&A function on Zoom, and I forgot to sort of highlight that in the beginning. But anyway, people understand that. So let's kick off the questions, Bjorn.

Yes. So first question here, this seems like a perfect spot to go for sizable repurchases. How do you think about this? And is there any reason not to do share repurchases from your perspective?

Yes. That's always on the table and it's still on the table now. The only period when we are absolutely not able to do it was when we are restricted for reports, for example, or for large movements in the portfolio where we are -- ourselves are sort of insiders. So that's the only reason why when it cannot be on the table, otherwise, it's always on the table. And the thinking is, basically, we compare all new investments to our own stock price, and it's very difficult to sort of motivate any new investments when you have the -- when you have the stock trading where it is. And so the only -- and then the only other factor is that we obviously have to balance our liquidity so that we remain able to fund any unexpected stuff that comes out of the portfolio. So we balance that liquidity need versus looking at our own stock price, that's essentially how we're thinking about it. So -- but agree basically...

Thank you, and there was another one, but I think you covered it, which is essentially why would you invest $20 million in [Indiscernible] rather than investing $20 million in the [Indiscernible] stock at the moment? But yes... I think.

So that's -- that we think obviously [Indiscernible] is something that will be a provider of very high returns over the coming years. And it's something that we've obviously been following that company for a while as a shareholder and were constructive in this round alongside buying back stock actually, right? And so the round of [Indiscernible] closed in this quarter around about the same time as we were buying back stock. So yes, but as you say, Bjorn, and I'll point to my earlier comment that this -- it's very difficult to find new investments that matches the stock price. And since that's a possible investment for us, that it's very difficult to have something that's more attractive.

Thanks, and then we have another question on [Indiscernible] and [SWVL] and Babylon specifically. I guess I can do the [SWVL] part, and I'll leave the Babylon part for you, but it goes like this. Could you explain the equity facility in place at [SWVL]. Equity is [expensive] for both Babylon and [SWVL] at the moment? What are the other options they have? And can you -- would you participate in an equity raise, if any? And so on [SWVL] at closing, there were high redemptions, not as high as we've seen in average on the market right now. They were left with gross proceeds of $160 million from that [Indiscernible]. In addition to this, they have this at-market equity facility where the full details are available in their SEC filings. But this essentially allows at [SWVL] option to issue new shares and sell them in the market, up to amounts of some $450 million, given where they're trading right now, I'd say, of course, not keen on using that, but it's safe to -- so that they are essentially can fund themselves if they want to. And then, yes, do you want to take a more general thought on that [Indiscernible] in terms of Babylon and [Indiscernible]...

[Technical Difficulty] The Babylon traded down on the back of very low free float. And I think sort of a supply base around the stock, the only supplier to stock for people, I think -- I don't think we quite knew what the company is doing. But -- and then that's sort of been that has then been overtaken by a general sort of malaise in the stock markets, but -- and then in health markets, specifically, post COVID their peers, I don't think they're not peers in any other way that they both are operating within digital health, but very different business models with the health, but we like to Teladoc, et cetera, obviously down a lot, and that's been a drag on the price. And then in the environment we're in now, it's full focus on profitability, right? And Babylon is not profitable now and sort of the very, very strong revenue growth that they are sort of providing to us shareholders is not something that market sort of favor right now. It's difficult to sort of to switch from quarter-to-quarter from what the markets are favoring in businesses overall, I don't think that's a wise thing to do. I mean Babylon is very much focused on taking market share in the U.S. and establish itself as a large player. And then, of course, as we know, and we've seen them operate in other jurisdictions or like the U.K., they have a product that's very -- that we see has proved to be able to take out a lot of costs, and we think that will be, over time, be the case also for their very large presence in the U.S. market now at least in terms of dollar numbers, obviously, a very small percentage of the overall market remaining growth. But that's not being sort of prior favorable markets now. So I think that's another reflection that's maybe not connected to the [SPAC] as such. And yes, I mean, if we -- if these companies -- I mean, we wouldn't invest into -- making a new investment in a listed company. But if the listed part of the portfolio needs to fund themselves in the listing market at two low valuations, basically. We will -- I mean, I think you should expect us to sort of to participate because that's just simply a good thing to do for us, for our shareholders in some capacity. So that's not been the case. But if that were to happen, then we would not want to be diluted at too low prices. So I hope that answers that question across [SWVL] and Babylon.

Then we have another question here. Given that you have both listed and nonlisted investments and that listed assets are down massively during the last year and nonlisted assets are not down to the same extent, is it possible to compare the implied difference in risk premium in the listed venture capital market and the private venture capital markets? Is there no listed discount these days or premium...

One has to be careful in sort of doing these comparisons for a variety of reasons, right? So the best companies out there are obviously not in the need to finance themselves. Because they're also best in terms of planning the liquidity. So in the -- and where -- so the market in the listed space may move up and down on the back of larger certainties with geopolitics or for interest rates, et cetera, et cetera, you don't see the same volatility in private markets because the best companies simply don't come to market. The -- what I would say, though, and in addition to that, one has to sort of also -- it's difficult to compare apples. It's not really apples-to-apples in many cases because private companies tend to, not all of them, but most of them tend to issue equity in the form of preferred stock, press, liquidation press, which are not to be compared apples-to-apples wise to a common stock, which has full upside, full downside, preferred stock has a more beneficial sort of stance on the downside and that they have liquidation preference. Some preps are -- have even guaranteed returns and stuff like that. So sort of -- and those instruments obviously carry higher value if they were just pure common stock. So it's not a perfect sort of comparison to make between sort of private market press and public markets with common shares.

Thank you. And then another question here on Gett. From tradition, we can see that your ownership in Gett increased from 5.3% reported in the last few quarters to some 24% now. Could you describe the nature of that, please? Do you want to do it? Or do you want me to take this one?

You go ahead, Bjorn.

Yes. [Indiscernible] So this is essentially a technical reporting issue. We own some 0.3% of the total outstanding shares of Gett. But given the different kind of press shares and the press stack that Per just also in general, that's equivalent to that we own 24% of the economic interest in Gett, which we have for the last many quarters. So this is just another way of showing that. And yes. So essentially, economic interest is unchanged, but just another way of showing it. And then we have views on valuation in private markets. Kinnevik's view this morning is that private markets are converging to the public markets. Would you agree?

Absolutely. I mean, ultimately, if you compare the same share class to the -- share classes within the same sectors, subject to sort of different sort of company-specific things, a public company should be valued at the same price as a private market. I mean, they're just simply -- the same -- if they're simple the same company they should be valued the same way. But hence, back to this sort of point that it's a preferred with downside protection will be valued higher than the common stock. So it's difficult sort of to draw comparisons like-for-like.

And another question here. When you look at the portfolio in aggregate, how much funding do your companies need before getting to cash flow neutral on average or in general?

Yes, that's -- that's a -- I mean, many of these companies have an ability to manage their growth and hence, sort of slow down growth, extend runway and even become cash flow positive at the expense of growth. So it's difficult to answer basically. It's not -- it's a fluid situation. And we feel we have liquidity even for a sort of a bad case scenario where the runway is not able to last on the cash flow positive. We have liquidity and or [needs] liquidity to sort of support our shareholding percentages in this company in the portfolio at large. But this is obviously the very young part of the portfolio will require more funding. They're not that large, as you know, in the portfolio. So not a meaningful sort of drag on the liquidity we have...

Good. Let's see if there are any other questions here that we haven't already covered. Yes, a follow-up on that last question. Yes, how long can you keep funding your company before you need to raise capital yourself?

Yes. So I mean we have -- I mean our source of funding is proceeds from exits in the portfolio, of which you've seen some and there's some stuff that's in the next phase, and that will help us generate liquidity for the portfolio -- for our funding need. And beyond that, we have the debt markets that we've used and that are -- have provided liquidity that we have at our -- as a resource right now. And only after that, will we go to equity markets. And -- but as I think we -- our view is that we only go to equity markets if we really don't have liquidity, and we really think it's in the interest of our shareholders to get exposure to whatever opportunity that we have in front of ourselves be that to participate in the further sort of funding of stuff in the existing portfolio or to invest into new companies. So that's been the rationale when we have gone to market -- equity markets to raise funding. But otherwise, the use of -- the source of funding is as explained. And again, I think we have a good liquidity situation to do what we need to do for the moment.

Good. Thank you. I think we've covered the questions here. And if I missed anyone, please reach out to either Per or me on e-mail, and we're happy to help. But other than that, I'll leave it to Per to close today's call.

Thank you, Bjorn, and thank you, everyone, for listening in. I -- we -- our next report is out in July. We'll see how the world looks then. Again, thankfully, we're not investing to do something on a quarter-by-quarter basis, but to build a portfolio of sort of very high return sort of companies over a longer time. But I really look forward to talking to you in July and seeing where everything is marked as of that point and giving you further updates. But in the meantime, I mean, please feel free to get in touch with me, Bjorn, or my colleagues -- our colleagues and we'll also be inviting you to a Capital Markets Day around summer. Thank you.

Thank you.