VNV Global AB (publ) (VNV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome, everybody. VNV Global Capital Markets Day. We have welcome people in the room, and then there's a bunch of people also with us on video. So welcome to you, too. We have, I think, a great schedule, and this will be a very good opportunity to meet with many of our portfolio companies, also including some which you haven't met before. Or I think some of you at least haven't met before. I mean, so Voi and BlaBla will be fantastic to have updates from here, but there's some like Breadfast and BokaDirekt. I don't think some of you -- all of you have met them. So this will be a good opportunity to hear those stories told. This is how the schedule looks like. We'll -- I'll do some introductory -- I'll say something now. And then Voi, Breadfast, BokaDirekt, short break and then another couple of companies, 3 companies, and then we'll have some drinks outside. So that's the afternoon. I think the schedule is as we have communicated before. Unfortunately, Niko from BlaBlaCar have to be at the desk for some stuff that we're excited about. But we are also very excited that Piotr is here. Piotr has been with the company as long as we've been invested, and they will be a great opportunity for you not only to hear Niko and [indiscernible] talk about this company, but to get a feel for some other people in this sort of very important company for us. But us lot, I mean, in case any of you don't know what we do, this sort of summarizes that network effects, of course, as the common denominator amongst all the companies in our portfolio. Network effects gets you to this wonderful win it takes everything kind of place where one can nearly sort of dream of the word monopoly, which is not good to say, but it's wonderful to own if we are honest with ourselves. That's what we look for. And a very important characteristic to have when you look -- when you invest into companies with network effects or with the ambition to enjoy network effects is that you can be patient. So the presence of permanent capital is especially important when this is the focus area in contrast to maybe e-commerce and other things where you can get revenues and maybe even profit is going very quickly, but barriers to entry are low so they can sort of disappear quickly. In network effects, barriers to entry are very high. But -- and wonderful when you are at that stage, but it can sometimes take a long time. So permanent capital is important. And [ uslot ] here, I think as throughout the years, we are we feel we have a capacity to take risk, but with a very, very sort of disciplined eye on the risk reward ratio. It's okay to take risk if the upside compensates for it. And this is how the portfolio look like, and there's been some changes. I'll come to them. But I think it's a familiar picture. Again, today, you'll get an opportunity to meet a lot of these companies, which I think you'll enjoy. I certainly will. What we've been active at over this past even year. I think it's fair to say, it's been with a very sort of -- we've had a very disciplined, I think it's okay to say eye on our debt maturing. Some debt is maturing this month, but also the bigger debt piece that we have outstanding, it's maturing in January 2025. So we've been hard at work in trying to monetize parts of the portfolio in order to sort of pay down the debt. So we've got to see our debt. And we're happy about 2 transactions that we have done over this past year. This is the first one where we sold the portfolio of assets to Verdane here in Scandinavia but really centered around Booksy, the Polish booking platform for the beauty industry. So that was sold for $52 million, which is a 12% discount in cash, and that has closed. We can get a little bit more. We can get up to $58 million if to earnout pieces sort of fall into place. We feel very confident that one of them will, so we'll get some of that. And then the other one takes a little longer, so it's a little bit in the future. But if you count $58 million, it's -- we basically sold it at where we had it booked at NAV, which we feel is also apart from raising cash, it's also important to show that our -- the markets we have that sum up to our NAV is good and because we're increasingly frustrated that our share price values this NAV at a very large discount. It's come in a bit from this. This is the mark of that portfolio in our share price at the day when we announced this. So that was the first exit. The second exit is one which we have signed, but not yet closed. So this is us selling Getts. We own roughly half of Getts. The whole company has been acquired by the parking app of Israel is a company called Pango. So they have agreed to buy Getts for $83 million to us, of which $70 million comes from closing and another $30 million gets paid out over a couple of years. So that extra payout is not in contrast to the other transaction, which has continued on some stuff happening at Booksy. This is not continued on anything. It's a security for the indemnification that we provide to the buyer that, for example, tax and legal matters are as as they -- as we've said they are. And we feel very confident that, that's all good. So we expect to receive the full $83 million $70 million first and then $13 million over some time. Also, well, at an 11% discount to where we have Gett marked in our NAV and still a big difference to where our share price had it was pricing at sort of roughly a 50% discount. Now I think our stock came up a little bit on the back of this signing this transaction. I think when we -- sometime in later summer, I think it's fair to estimate that we'll also perform a closing. It's currently with Israeli antitrust. And -- but it's not really a monopoly issue. This is the parking app buying the ride hailing, so it doesn't really alter competition, which is the big focus of any antitrust institution. So post-selling Gett, our portfolio will look like this. So Gett has disappeared. BlaBlaCar becomes even more important, which we feel very good about. We love this company. It's the one company, I think, in the portfolio, which is the most reminiscent of the holy grail of classifieds, where you get super high barriers to entry, very fragmented supply in the marketplace with a very fragmented demand that's sort of the checks the boxes of the potential of very, very sort of high barriers to entry and winner takes everything kind of model. I mean have that present in all our companies. We love all our companies. But in terms of sort of the one that's most reminiscent of that holy grail of classifieds. I think BlaBlaCar is that one, and it's roughly half the portfolio or the NAV after these transactions. And then there's also some cash, cash now upon closing of Gett and then cash that comes in over the next couple of years as we get the rest of the payment for the Gett transaction. So the -- how we were asked to include this. What this shows is our pro rata share of the top -- of our top 10 portfolio companies. And so this is the revenue to net to us, which has grown about 30% of these on an annual basis over these past years. And we're currently at about just under $200 million revenue to us. And then if you also look on the earnings side of things, A little bit more than half is EBITDA positive. If you include Voi, that adds another 10%. And the reason why Voi great is that we should really talk about EBIT or is the Voi owns and operates e-scooters, does it super efficiently, but nevertheless, there's something that happens between EBITDA and EBIT, which makes this -- we should -- this EBITDA positive, we expect it to be EBIT positive. And -- but you get the picture that our portfolio is -- has a strong revenue growth. And on top of that, it also has an earnings profile. And that's really the ambition if one is to sort of end this intro on where we -- where our ambition lies and where we're heading is to have these companies develop into not only profitable but cash flow positive and ideally also in time, there will be cash flow positive net to us. So we get to that situation where the big parts of our portfolio provides a dividend stream to us, which will allow us to pay our OpEx and not be stressed about that, but also eventually to have some cash to invest into new companies. This is how we had it back in 2018, the last year we had Avito. We're happy that Avito is gone now with all the stuff that's happening over there. But that last year, I think we had like $13 million of cash dividend to us, which would then pay for OpEx and also allow us to [fund actually to voice]. So that -- if one is to talk about where we're heading right now. I feel that is the -- that is very much the focus. And I think companies like ours listed holding companies do very well when it has sort of that kind of financial stability. So that's a very, very clear goal. And then, of course, there's stuff here that will, us BlaBlaCar, at one point in time, maybe leaves the portfolio. There's stuff here that will then come out of the shadows for BlaBlaCar, much in the same way that, BlaBlaCar was in the shadows of Avito a few years ago. There are companies here, which when we have the Capital Markets Day next year or the 2 years after, will sort of have come out of the shadow and be the next BlaBlaCar, and then there's a bunch of stuff in this part, which I'm very confident will first make it here, but then eventually make it here and become big players. I'm very confident that here there's stuff going on here that we see performing very well, and that will eventually sort of migrate to become something big like that. Anyway, that's all I had. I thought that was a good sort of backdrop for the afternoon. And with that, I'd like to hand the microphone and stage to Fredrik.

And it feels like a more optimistic power on this CMD than the one in September. I know you're always optimistic, but less stress now than then. So as Per alluded to, I think we had Voi, we have never felt as convinced and comfortable with one, that our industry, the [ urban ] mobility micro industry would be very big and very profitable. And two that Voi will win. For a few reasons. One, we see that our products now are becoming really good. I mean these could have been good for a couple of years. Now we've also cracked the e-bike as we have a really geared e-bike. The e-bike market is at least as big as the scooty one, just less penetrated. Two regulations have matured a lot. We don't see the same pain points as we saw in the early days around parking, around over competition, oversupply and so on. Three, competition, competitive pressure has come down a lot. What we thought would happen in the first 2, 3, 4 years, took 5, 6, 7 years, but now there are very few competitors left. And the fourth thing is, yes, around profitability, you will see today that we -- yes, we have delivered on our plan on profitability, even overdelivered, which makes us and I know, Per as well. Yes, we sleep much better in the nights now. Yes. I'm Fredrik CEO of Voi, also Founder; and Mathaias, CFO and Deputy CEO, is here today as well, and will join during the Q&A. So this is really our vision. It comes from also thinking that transportation is it is all over the world. yes, perhaps even more in the U.S. but also in Europe, is quite messed up. We give a lot of space to cars, 50%, 60% to parking spaces and roads and so on. They are bad for the environment. They are dangerous. They're involved in pretty much all fatal accidents. And then that's more like on the philosophical ideological level. What we see also is that all European cities between 2030 and 2035, have said they will prohibit combustion engine cars in city centers. Stockholm is actually the first big city out from 31st of December this year when they are prohibiting gas and petrol cars in the CBD district, so in the very center of Stockholm. But most other European cities are following now over the coming years. And then we think a better solution for urban transportation is light electric vehicles, such as the ones you see on this page. We started with e-scooters, now e-bikes but we have built a platform that's very vehicle agnostic. So the software data and operational platform can handle any vehicle. So we can tap into other vehicle form factors and combine that with public transportation with BlaBlaCar, with drive hailing and so on. So people shouldn't need to have and own their own car when they live in a city. If you don't live in a city, like I grew up in [indiscernible] for up in North, then you, of course, need a car. But yes, I think in Sweden, it's 60%, 70% of the population is living in cities. And now it says over the last 5 years. Now it's actually 6 years. So we founded Voi in 2018 together with BNB and some of the Avito guys, who are the first investors. Now we have done more than 250 million trips in more than 100 cities, all over Europe. We focus on Northern, Western and Southern Europe. We drew a line kind of currently from Finland, yes, East of Germany, so focus on the richest countries in Europe. We're number one, we have more than 100,000 vehicles in operation now. And we think we are getting started. So the e-scooter market today, we see that the number of e-scooters is not growing a lot over the last year is rather consolidating. But we see that on the e-bike side, there is only, I think, a fifth or fourth of the number of e-bikes out in European sales compared to e-scooters. At the same time, as we know, that many user groups, especially older users, prefer the e-bike. And we also know that city politicians look upon e-bikes in yes, more favorable way than e-scooters because it's bikes. While e-scooters is more something new, something techy, a bit scary as we expect a lot of growth on the e-bike side over the coming years. The team has been around for quite some time now. So it's me, it's Mathias CFO, who was CFO at Modern Times Group and Veoneer before. Antonia is leading HR. She was leading HR at EQT, Bambora, Pharma General Counsel. 30 years of general counsel experience. Hans and Christina, leading the markets organization together with Stephan in Germany. So most people now have worked with each other for 4 or 5 years, and the company has existed for a bit more than 6. So productivity and just like how fast we can work together and make decisions have just grown exponentially. So we feel very, very good about the team now. On the financial side, we had massive growth from really 2019, 2020 to 2022, a bit slower in '22 and '23 since we did a big turnaround from heavy focus on growth towards profitability and cash generation. And that, of course, shows up on the top line numbers. From next year, we will start to grow a lot again because now we have cracked both the gross margin side as you see here, we've improved gross profit margins from 31% in 2020 to yes, 49% in '23. We continue to, yes, increase margins even more this year than what we did last year. At the same time, as we have cut even more costs. So we're getting proper operating leverage. And as you see on the right-hand side, group EBITDA margin for the last 12 months was 7% and when we look at the full year of 2024, it will be significantly higher. And as Per alluded to as well, we aim to be EBIT positive, EBIT profitable. And that for us is -- since EBITDA is a good proxy for operational cash generation. So then we're starting to get, yes, quite some buffers with which we can invest in more vehicles, raised asset-backed debt financing for the vehicle side and so on. So that's very, very hopeful. I don't know if I need to talk that much about this anymore. But the early days of the industry, there was a lot of, yes, I would call it, almost chaos. So much vendor capital flowing in, quite a few bad operators, no regulations. So issues around parking, safety, antisocial behavior and so on. I think now most of those things, especially when we talk to politicians are fixed which has put our industry in another light than where it was, yes, the first years when it was a bit chaotic. The number of competitors is down to -- as we see it, it's really only 2 real competitors then a few very small ones. And that, of course, also helps then it's easier to collaborate and work with cities instead of just fighting each other, yes, bloody in discussions with cities, with users and so on. So I think you should know, there has been a lot of, yes, bad skeptical news about our industry over the first year. You will see a lot of positive news this year. You will see us and Lime coming out as profitable, perhaps someone else as well. You won't see a lot of bad media around parking issues, safety and so on. So I think the tide is turning. We hit some kind of bottom last year when some of our competitors went bankrupt. They were forced into mergers. But you will see a lot of positive news over the coming years. eventually Lime IPOing as well late this year or next year, they have said, and they will come out with good numbers. Yes. So a lot of the critique we got the first years that -- yes, most of those are really fixed now. The first one was around obstructing, taking our public space, cluttering the streets, if you go out now in Stockholm or in most other cities, we have designated parking spots in Stockholm. We have got, I think, 4,000 from the cities, so every bike rack is a digital geo-fenced parking zone now in Stockholm, which is great. Lifetime of the vehicles, the latest vehicles last 5, 6, 7, 8 years. So we have vehicles out now that we put on the streets in 2020 which are fully depreciated, but still in very good shape. And that's the 2020 model. The 2024 model is, of course, 1, 2, 3 steps more advanced and more robust. Gross profit, we talked about target audience and user groups. Sometimes I hear it's only kids using them. That's not true. The main user group is 25, 34 years old, young professionals, one of the -- yes, user groups with the highest purchasing power that's out there, which is a very good user group to grow with. And what we also see is that every year when old people like -- when people stop using mobility at 70, 75, 80, 85, they haven't been very eager in using our type of service. But then 15, 16 , 17, 18-year-olds start use mobility and they are very eager to use our service. So we see a positive demographic kind of tailwind through that. E-scooters are unsafe. We have gotten the incident numbers down, so slight to serious accidents from -- it was around 55, 60 per million kilometers riden in '21. Now in April, it was down to 20, as we carried with 67%. Better products, more education, better roads and so on. And the last one here that E-scooters and E-bikes don't replace cars. They do. Here when we go out and talk to our users, we see that both -- they both answer that they use cars less but also that they combined Voi with public transportation to a very large extent, in Stockholm the number is as high as 60% in some German cities, even higher. Yes, I've already talked about the market, so I won't go into this. The only thing is we moved from an unregulated environment to a more licensed and [ tenders ]regulated environment, which we have been advocates for since day 1 because that sets more clear playing rules and then we can invest longer. On a longer time horizon and work together with the cities and other operators and public transport and so on compared to in the early days when it was Wild West. And as a consequence of -- yes, both also having invested and built both user products, but also city products, so to handle things such as parking, as I talked about, but also that the number of competitors have come down. When we applied for Paris in 2019, 2020, there were 25, 28 applicants, then Paris had all the power. They could tell us do this, pay that. You should be happy for being here. But now in many of the recent ones, then there are only 1 or 2 competitors left. So then the power balance shifts towards us instead. And also, of course, drives our market share up even more with most big cities they want 2, perhaps 3 operators. And when there are only 2 or 3 operators left, yes, it makes it easier. I think pretty much last one. So we started this turnaround in 2021, where we saw that capital started to become more expensive. So we've been through 3 major -- you have reduction in force processes, where we have both taken out a lot of G&A cost, but also halved the number of FTEs in the company. So we were a bit more than I think, 450, 470 white collars end of '21, early '22. Now we're down to around 200 as we've taken out pretty much 60% of the workforce but managed to keep most of the high performers so the talent density is just much higher now. And people have worked with each other for a long time now, similar to their leadership team. So OpEx is under control now. And we also see that with every vehicle model, so this is a slightly complicated graph, but it says V3X was the vehicles we put out in 2020. V5 was in 2022. Now we're on V7. And we see that with every vehicle model and when markets are going from free markets to licensed and tenders, we see that the net revenue per vehicle per day. This as a percentage of Voi average last year is going up. So it's good for us with new vehicle models. That's why we want to invest in a lot of new vehicles next year. And it's also good for us. We'll be moved from this unregulated free market to more regulated, clear playing field and longer investment rises. And so now, yes, we're really aiming at 2027, 2028 now where we at least yes, want to double the size of the company and generate significant both cash flows and EBIT. So we continue to work together with cities and regulators to kind of stabilize and build a great regulatory environment. We will continue to see some consolidation, but now most consolidation is done. There will probably be 1 or 2 bigger deals more, but most of it is done now. And there won't be -- yes, I can bet then is fishing hat that there won't be any newcomers into this space because no investors want to fund and catch up on the $500 million, $600 million, $700 million we have invested and the $2 billion that Lime has invested and the $2 billion that Bird invested before they went bankrupt. Build out with new vehicle form factors. We talked about the E-bikes over the coming years, we will focus on E-scooters and E-bikes, perhaps try out some -- yes, some more form factor. And the fourth one -- as I said, I'm very convinced that if VNV has valued us at, I think, around $400 million now or just below, I wouldn't sell Voi for less than $2 billion. Thank you.

Thank you for that presentation. We're going to run a Q&A. I'll kick off with some questions, but please, everyone in the room feel free to just raise your hand, and Kathy and I will hand out the microphone. So we thought we'd start off with one question that we asked all of our companies here presenting here today. If you look back at the last 24 months, what are your biggest learnings and takeaways from going from hyper growth to profitable growth.

All right. I mean there's so many things that you learned. I think -- for me, I think the major thing is that you can always act faster and more because when it started to become apparent what needs to be done in a company, time is not on your side, so just get on with it. I think then the second thing, I think, is also that moving a young ambitious organization from having abundance of capital and and the sky is the limit to something more that resembles kind of the hard work of a normal company, so to speak. It's a huge undertaking to bring everyone with you on that journey. That should not be underestimated, I think.

I agree.

Good. Fell free to the raise your hand if there any questions, otherwise, I'll go ahead with one more here. So what -- you touched upon this earlier in the presentation, but what are you hearing today from regulators, cities, municipalities, that's different from what you heard in 2018 when you -- when everything started, so to speak?

In 2018 and 2019, the conversations were very much around -- will this be allowed, should this be allowed. Now the conversations are very much about, okay, we want this in our city, how can we set that 5-, 7-, 10-year plan similar to -- yes, because city planning is like inherently slow. It takes a long time. But now we're rather part of the conversations with public transport, like city planning, they ask us for that input using our data on road quality on where to put bus shelters because we have so much data. So it's much more constructive. And yes, we have access to the actual decision-makers like here in Stockholm, the traffic mayor is very, very engaged. Tomorrow, I'm meeting the mayor in London, so they can. He's also -- he cares about transport in London and we probably did that before as well, but then we were not at the table.

I think we had one in the audience.

So a lot of the growth is coming from bikes. Do you -- when do you think you'll have a sense of the unit economics of the bikes as it relates to the scooters?

Very good question. And for those of you who don't know, I think Mr. Richmond here is a board member of Voi. I think every single -- I mean, -- if you go back a couple of years, I think the unit economics of bikes were not really there. I think the sturdiness and the total cost of ownership of the bikes were not really as strong. I think what you see now over the last couple of 1, 2 years, and particularly the new generation of E-bikes we put out this year. We get unit economics to be in good cities as strong as the E-scooters. I think we're still now looking at, of course, the unit economics and cash flow generation in relation to the CapEx because they're slightly more expensive. But I think over the long term, there should be no difference between bikes and scooters.

Yes. And to add to that, I met some people in New York a few weeks ago, which are big investors in VNV. And I said, you're not allowed to hate on bikes. You're allowed to hate on scooters, but not on bikes because bikes is kind of holy. It's sacred for Europeans and European politicians, which means there were quite strict tough regulations against E-scooters in the early days. But on bikes, we don't see that. Because if you say to a politician like we have 10,000 bikes to put out in your average size city, do you want them? They would say, yes. While if you say we have 10,000 E-scooters wanting -- we want to put them out in your average high city. They will say, "Hell no".

I think one additional comment that I think to touch upon what Fredrik said, I think one of our U.K. recent wins in [ Solent, Southampton Portsmouth, there actually the city is paying us to deploy bikes. So the whole tide has turned, and I think that dynamics, we will see increasing more over time as well.

Yes. So a couple of questions from me. So firstly, on the asset-backed financing of the fleet. If you can describe that in a bit more detail and also the fleet expanding next year at a faster pace? Will that be completely asset backed? Or how would that look?

It's a good question. I think if you look at the financial profile, these assets have -- should have no problem whatsoever, of course, to get proper asset back financing. I think what you still see is the perception of the industry. Fredrik talked about the Birds of the world and the Tears of the world that pretty much went bankrupt. So I think there is still a level of perception around the industry, what that credit people are a little bit concerned about. So I think it's TBD, I think we managed to do the proper asset-backed financing for this year or for next year's CapEx. But the cash flow generation is amazing. I think you didn't see it here on the slides. But when you would put a scooter out in one of these tendered cities, it takes less than half a year to get the CapEx back for that scooter. So that's how strong cash generation we have. And sorry, what was the second question?

Other questions. So first on the -- we're obviously seeing some consolidation, some competitors going bankrupt. So you talked previously about maybe being active yourself in consolidating the industry. Is that now off the table? And then the last question is, we've seen the margin trajectory, both on [indiscernible] central costs and also the gross margin coming up. Where do you think the sort of steady-state margin can be in this business?

Well, if you take the first question, I think, I mean, as you see the financial profile and operating leverage that Fredrik talked about. I think for us right now, it's a matter of scale. I mean you can add twice as many vehicles and you don't really have to add any fixed cost at all. So I think we spent a significant amount of time last year trying to look at acquisitions or scale acquisitions. I think most of those -- or all those assets were pretty bad shape, I think, way over leveraged and not very well run. So we basically decided together with VNV and the Board said that let's not go forward those because the dilution would be huge and pretty risky transactions as well. We're still looking at consolidation of course. But right now, I think we're -- when competitive pressure has gone down so much, the slower pace and step-by-step approach is probably most value creating. There may be some small bolt-on acquisitions that we may do over time, but in strategic areas where we want to grow. But -- and on the last question there on margin long term. I mean, given that now markets become more and more protected, it's very difficult to -- I mean I used to be a CFO in listed companies. So putting out some kind of long-term guidance and so it's always tricky. I was concerned about that because you don't really know. But if you look -- I mean, right now, I mean, we -- the only at this scale, our profitability is going to be pretty strong. Gross margins, I think we will -- we are right now at 50%. They should be north of 60% -- maybe up to 70% over time and EBIT margin. There's no reason why we shouldn't get to 20%-plus EBIT margins. But obviously, I mean, the future is the future, so it's difficult to write that in stone.

I think we have a question over here.

Just on this rather positive outlook, what kind of visibility do you have in terms of maybe not regulation, but on upcoming cities that you can expand to and so on. So to give us some kind of more concrete visibility into the ambition.

The reality is there is no shortage of cities to expand into or within. The shortage now is more vehicles. We could easily probably almost double the fleet size in existing countries, regions with some small expansion that we could do from the existing countries. Yes, that would mainly be in Central Eastern Europe then and potentially, yes, Middle East.

I mean there are really 2 dimension at play here. I think first dimension is that there is a lot of cities now that get less and less competitors. So limes and tears of the world, they're pulling out of cities where we're #1. So you need to kind of supply more for that loss of supply in the market. And then you have the underlying trajectory of growing demand as well. I think connecting also to what Per said, I think, may be difficult to see that this is a network effect business. But I mean the reason why we're #1 in, I think, around 85%, all the cities that we are present in. And one of the reasons for that is that we have found the formula of how to be #1 in rise market share and #1 in rise market share, then you get the organic flow of the fleet to rebalance organically to match supplying demand in the cities. And that's extremely difficult for someone else to come in. I mean, in Stockholm, I think we have 70% rides market share probably or even more in some days. And it's almost impossible for someone to come in and break through that. So even without tender 1, 2 players now. It's in the essence 3-play market here in Stockholm, and we have a very strong organic -- strong position.

And I now need to catch my plane to get to the mayor of London. So Matthias will take care of you the last 10 minutes.

Are there any more questions?

For Fredrik?

If not, Fredrik there is a fishing hat, you better a $2 billion company. Remember that.

Yes, cool. No, so just curious, since you're indexing much more heavily on bikes ahead and that's going to be a key driver of growth. I just be interesting to hear a bit more about the bike strategy going forward. So is it more about kind of building beachheads in new cities and winning new tenders and new licenses because bikes are easier to sell than scooters and maybe that makes it an easier sell on the political side? Or is it more about deploying in the existing footprint? And then I presume there's maybe a little bit of cannibalization. It would just be interesting to hear a little bit about the bike strategy ahead.

It's a good question. I think what we found so far is that the profitability of cities are highly dependent on the specific conditions. If you have a very strong E-scooter city, obviously, E-bike may be a little bit tougher. So it's -- right now, it's a combination of existing cities where it makes sense. And sometimes, like in the Solent, I think the city wanted to have a multimodal tender. So there's one part. And the other one is that there are great cities out there that could handle just going in with bikes first. But right now, given that there is -- it's a verge of -- it's all about capital allocation right now because if you have -- if you raise debt to buy vehicles, obviously need to figure out so that the return on that investment is optimized as well given the overall trajectory in terms of profitability.

Yes. One final question.

What's the pathway to exit?

You tell me. Now I think that this will be a public listed company in a few year's time. At least that's what we're working towards, I think, if there's something happened on the way there, I think we will obviously look at all those things. But I think that's the mindset we should have. We're trying to build very robust, sustainable, profitable company. And then once you've done that, you have the optionality. If you don't do that, exit discussions are pretty unimportant conversations, is wishful thinking. I saw that Mr. or Jake, you had something -- I'm shivering a little bit right now.

Just back to the question about the bikes versus scooters. So it's driven by the return on capital balance, the tenders and the cities you're approaching. But if you had your choice, if you just had a pile of money to spend on those 2 types of vehicles like -- and given sort of where you want to end up a few years from now, how would you split the differ? Or how would you split the mix between the two?

That's a good question. I think ambition wise, we would like to expand on bikes a lot. I think the restriction right now is access to capital. And I think that's -- so that's -- you would -- if you had the possibility to invest a lot more in bikes with slightly lower profitability, we will probably do that any a given day. I mean just a look at London is one of the best -- London, New York, probably the 2 best city -- bike cities. And I mean Lime, they did a great job in London, I think, for those of you who've been there. Unregulated, they will be regulated. So they will probably not enjoy this for that long time, but they have done a great job there and then making a lot of money in London. So there are some cities that are really good to be in.

Seems like that's it. Thank you very much, Mathias, and Voi. I'll hand it over -- a round of applause for Voi and Mathias.

Hello, everyone. First of all, thanks VNV for hosting us. And thank you, everyone, for making it to the Capital Market Day. Eugene is my colleague. My name is Mostafa, and we are running Breadfast from bread to everything, from the most basic unit in the household which is the very basic fresh loaf of bread, hopefully, one day to the most advanced unit needed by the household. So we started 7 years ago, baking and delivering fresh bread to customers' doorsteps at 5 a.m. in the morning in a city like Cairo, one of the most populous cities in the world. We wanted to fix the broken supply chain. That's why we believe that reliability does not exist in emerging markets and that's why we had to forget about engineering and technology and just to go back to the basics, baking fresh bread. Egypt is a massive market, 120 million consumers, food and grocery in Egypt is around $100 billion, and 72% of the trade is unorganized. This is how big is the opportunity. The 3 founders here, myself and my co-founders, I started as the first driver in the company. My Co-founder Mohammad started as the first customer experience agent in the company and Abdullah started as the first coder in the company. First 6 months of the company, we had to learn how to bake. Today, Breadfast is a home for more than 5,500 employees, including our delivery associates. Breadfast today is the largest online grocery in Egypt. We are running 34 fulfillment centers across 4 cities in Egypt with the back end of almost 11,000 square meters. And today, we are also running Breadfast Coffee, which is going to be our first omnichannel consumer-facing outlet. Breadfast Coffee, by the way, is the main threat to brands like Starbucks in Egypt and hopefully soon in the whole region. This is one of my very, very favorite charts. Paul Graham, who is the founder of Y Combinator. He tweeted about us in 2021. Allow me to read the tweet. He was saying this revenue graph illustrates the 2 dimensions in which startups are spreading into more domains than traditional tech and into more countries, this is Breadfast, which delivers bread and other household essentials in Egypt. He was showcasing the exponential growth of Breadfast. Two years later, he actually tweeted again about us. The great thing that the first chart is a representation of actually almost 10% of what we achieved 2 years later. So since January 2021, Breadfast has grown 38x and basically, we closed March at $150 million in annualized run rate revenue, revenue run rate. And as always, we are just getting started. This is our vision. Sometimes, we don't like to identify Breadfast as an online grocery. We say like Breadfast is an infrastructure company, infrastructure companies, started from the very basic, from the scratch. And hopefully, 1 day, again, like Eugene knows that I don't like the word super app. I like for this to happen organically like 1 day, our customers will wake up, and they really find that Breadfast is doing everything for them. So on the very far left, you will find a cloud supermarket, and this is what we have been trying over the past 7 years to master; running digital native cloud supermarket operations. After the cloud supermarket, you will see a virtual coffee shop. And actually, today, we delivered like cappuccinos and flat whites and Americans from our fulfillment centers to our customers door steps. And then you will find a bank, which I'm going to elaborate more about later on. And then you will see a virtual pharmacy, a cloud kitchen, and this is what we call future fulfillment point.

Thanks. So I'm sure many of you are wondering today, how is Breadfast in Egypt, managed to achieve this when the likes of getir, the likes of Gorillas, Flink, gopuff have all really struggled around the world. I think it really comes down to 2 things for us. In Egypt, we have -- are able to achieve like an incredible ratio between AOV and labor costs. So today, that's something like 15:1. So think about $15 average order basket and $1 of labor cost per hour. Compare that to the U.S. or Europe, where you're seeing something like $20 to $25 average order values, but labor cost in the $15 to $20 range, that makes it really, really difficult to build a unit economic model that allows you to scale this very efficiently. And that's actually, I think, where the trouble of our peers around the world have run into. I think the second thing that has allowed us to scale in this way has been the fact that we're operating in Egypt. We don't have a Walmart to compete with. We don't have a Costco to compete with. We don't have a Tesco to compete with. The reality is that we operate in a market, 70% unorganized. And so that allows us to be very price competitive with an offline retailer from day 1. And that, I think, has really allowed us to build something that customers really appreciate. So not only is Egypt incredible market from a unit economic perspective. It's frankly a massive market. So today, we have 120 million people. That's the third largest population in all of Africa, only second to Nigeria and Ethiopia. And by -- and one of the fastest-growing economies in the world. So by 2050, the IMF actually forecast Egypt to be the 15th largest economy in the world. What that translates to is $100 billion of TAM today for us, which is a great market for us to be operating in. It's a market that's growing 10% year-over-year, and that's forecast to happen for the -- at least the next 5 to 10 years. So we're looking at total addressable market by 2027, $153 billion. But I think what is really exciting like Mostafa just referenced is that we've built business, which is high frequency, high trust in grocery, which I think we all know is like the most difficult e-commerce sector to penetrate. What this allows us to do is we say read to everything, and I think we really mean it. I think when you build the trust and you build the frequency in the grocery use case, it really allows you to move into all of commerce. And we really think that there's a $220 billion of TAM for us in the not-too-distant future as we continue to build and expand a range of verticles. We're really proud that. As of today, we are at parity with off-line retail when it comes to price, selection and convenience. In fact, we are actually ahead on some of these points. We are really excited because the way we have built out our business using these kind of dock fulfillment points means that it's way more capital efficient to build out and service large amounts of customers all over Egypt and eventually the Middle East and Africa. Our typical fulfillment point is, call it, 300 to 350 square meters. That's 10% of what a Carrefour or Tesco end market might need. That's subprime real estate that we need. So it can be like a basement of an apartment. It can be like an old form of garage. We don't need prime real estate to access and tap into customers. And so what we're betting behind and what we're really seeing in our business is that this is a way more capital-efficient way to modernize grocery. And so when we think about the 70% of grocery that's still done in unorganized trade, we really believe that we're going to win the race in Egypt and across the market. And I think this is something you'll hear a lot more from companies in emerging markets in grocery moving forward. We're really proud of the private label that we've built over time. As Mostafa said, he was the first baker in the company. We started with 3 SKUs in bread. But we delivered something that customers really had a lot of passion for. And that then we can really expand that brand permission and move beyond bread into things like everyday essentials like your pantry items into farmers market, our eggs are kind of considered best in market. These are all private label products. We have a real -- a range called ReallyGood, which is now ready-to-eat, ready-to-cook range, but that's actually extended into things like Sway, which is our Household Care and Clean range. Combined each of these brands on this page contribute 35% of our monthly GTV. And so that 35% is actually in line with some of the best European retailers today. So you -- think about a Tesco, think about a Sainsbury's think about Carrefour. We as an online grocer have actually managed to achieve this. Referencing some of our peers around the world, private label was always meant to be a bridge towards like amazing profitability. And they really struggled to do that. And people ask us why? For us, it comes down to the fact that we started as a product manufacturer from Day 1. We never promised like quick 10-minute delivery. We built trust in product. And then we deliver -- we offered a really great delivery service afterwards. And so we had that brand trust to do that. I think customers generally find it more difficult to trust like a logistics supplier or a company that is a logistics supplier in their head, to be baking their fresh croissants. What this all really translates to is a GMV or dollar retention curve that we really think is the best in industry. As you can see on the slide, Breadfast is head and shoulders ahead of companies like DoorDash, which is considered best-in-class, Uber Eats, Instacart and Gopuff. Really, what's happening here is that as we build selection as we increase service quality, as we open more locations, we're actually able to deliver a better customer experience. And customers really, they reward us for that. And so by month 20, we are looking at close to 100% GMV retention, almost unheard of in this sector. And again, why? It's because like there is really no alternative in our markets. Grocery is still so far behind that when customers get a product that meets their needs, that is designed for their tastes, right? This is a market that has always relied on imported products, they really respond. And responding to like a champion of Egypt and the region that really reflects their -- like have its values and beliefs. And so that's something we're really proud of. Handing back to Mostafa now to talk about Breadfast Pay.

Yes. So as I mentioned earlier in our vision slide, the bank part. So this is an exciting one. FinTech is always a use case, and the use case is built on frequency, retention and trust and a real use case, which is shopping for grocery, right? So like a long time ago, we've developed our closed-loop wallet. Basically, cash on delivery in Egypt is still massive. And 80% of the population is still underbanked, not because we don't have banks, but like the process is very, very tough. What's interesting here is that by the time we've developed the most [ frequent ] closed-loop wallet in the country because it's very sticky to the use case of grocery shopping. So this is one. Two, in a couple of weeks from now, we're going to launch our prepaid card. Basically, this would allow us to open bank accounts for like our customers. Majority of our customers are the household moms, and household moms actually, they are the main controller of the consumer wallet of the household. They spend on groceries, they spend on utilities, they spend even on education for the kids. So basically, they control the majority of the consumer wallet. Surprise is household moms are not able to open bank accounts with traditional banking. Why? Because traditional banking, the bank either on income or assets based like decisions, right? They need to come with HR letter. They are working for this company or -- and like for the female in Egypt right now, we're talking 20% labor participation. And for us, we actually deal with the household mom every single day, right? So we built actually like data insight or consumption insight-based models that can decide on opening bank accounts for our customers. And we're the only player in the market that has this logistics of all these drivers. Basically, they are going to act as movable or mobile ATMs, right? We have a fulfillment center. Each of fulfillment center is covering almost 8 kilometers of radius, where we serve our customers, we will be allowed to open bank accounts for our customers. The cash in and cash out will happen through Breadfast Pay. And basically, as we always say, Breadfast is going to build the first bank in history that's built on top of a fresh loaf of bread. Yes, that's it.

Thank you, Mostafa and Eugene, please. Very impressive presentation and growth journey, and we're very happy shareholders. Unfortunately, Egypt as probably many of you know, have had some challenging macro over the last couple of years. So it'd be good to hear you speak a little bit about the challenges you've been forced to navigate around. And also what your outlook is now?

Yes. Thanks, Bjorn, and thanks for the support. From VNV. We're also a very, very happy company being like -- or having VNV on the cap table. So thank you for this. I mean the first thing we did is basically we decided to avoid all the negative morals and just we kept the focus to keep executing as a business. I think we are very lucky that we are operating in Egypt. Why? Again, 120 million consumers, like 72% unorganized rate. This is a big white space. As Eugene mentioned earlier, like we don't have any challenges to compete with the likes of Walmart or Lidl or like Costco or Tesco. It's a big, massive market. So I think we are lucky that we are operating in Egypt. Also at the end of the day, Egypt, like made us operationally profitable. This ratio between AOV and labor cost is because we are operating in a country like Egypt, each household still 4 and 5 people living together, so actually consolidated purchasing power of each household with a very, very reasonable labor cost per hour is like a big advantage for us to operate in a market like Egypt. Macro is macro, right? It's not only Egypt. Egypt has a very specific like maybe -- case. But like we're also lucky that we are selling bread, fruits and veggies. We're not selling fashion, right? Like it's not a luxurious destination or shopping destination for customers. So consumer shift, like we were never impacted by consumer shift. Actually during tough times, customers try to not spend on the luxurious like shopping like items and try actually to consolidate their spend and power on what matters, which is the basics and the commodities. This is basically how we like try to focus our muscles on executing over the past 2 years, like in March, like the injection from the IMF, from UAE, from European Union, I think this made things look better. right, like from a macro perspective and like Egypt floated the pound. So now it's more on the stable side of things. And for us, like the$ 150 million like actual conversion of March actually from a constant currency would have been now at almost $260 million, $270 million like a run rate revenue company. No worries for us, we're going to compensate because we're growing like 2x and 3x year-over-year, and we have the room to grow like this. 70% of our growth is organic actually. And this is a third like world-class metric for a company that's a Series-B and consumer growing like massively year-over-year with 70% organic. So, yes, I think we're excited. And we get excited when supply chains are broken. This is how we built the mentality of Breadfast. If supply chain is organized, we don't have an added value to add. And we have no like benefit to operate in like an organized supply chain. But please Eugene, feel free to do add, if I missed anything.

Yes. Look, we shared the revenue chart, right? That's a revenue chart that has 2x, 3x the business through COVID, through war in Ukraine, through very high inflation, through crisis in Gaza. I think that because we are doing essentials, almost like these macro shocks can be like a disruptive time for consumers to go and actually try something different. And as we were mentioning, as you saw heavy inflation, you saw FX pressures on the market that actually increased the competitiveness of our private label range. So all of a sudden, consumers are waking up, there's like, "Man, I cannot afford these products from Procter & Gamble, from Unilever because of this FX trade." Well, I heard that Breadfast has a great new range of products that -- household care even, customers will come and try some of these products and then they will actually see that these are products that are actually made for their tastes and their values. And I think that each one of these shocks that we've talked about has actually been an accelerant for the business. And so look, we're very happy that we're playing in like defensive, like defensive sector in grocery that shows resilience through tough times.

Thank you. And do we have any questions from the audience? And yes, we have Keith.

So you put up that great chart in competition. But if you were going to force rank why people, customers come to you, are you competing right now on convenience, on price? And like what's the main drivers to why they come back, because you talk about how quality is something that you've earned your way into, so to speak, because they -- they've gotten to trust you, but sort of what's driving the actual customer journey?

Yes. Thanks, Keith, for this. So basically, customer experience. This is how we started and why we started actually baking the bread because there is no reliability in supply chain. And like I remember the first day I was pitching my co-founders, they get excited -- they got excited, and we were like, "Okay, let's go and build Uber for bread." And I said like, "No, we're going to bake the bread ourselves because the moment we're going to build technology. Believe me, tomorrow, we're not going to be able to aggregate high-quality product and to deliver it right to the customer because we don't own the decision at the end of the day." So customer experience is basically the main driver for Breadfast. And we worked very, very hard to build our brand. Most of the tech operators what they do, they only focus on technology and customer acquisition. And all these metrics, of course, we have to operate all these metrics properly. But what we focus on more is to build a brand that's going to hopefully list publicly one day and to build this powerful story for a household consumer Internet company, built on customer experience and the brand. Of course, we can go and break down why we are trying to or how we are providing great customer experience, so selection is a big part of it. Today, Breadfast, 35% of our revenues coming from our own private label. This is actually another world-class metric. There is no online on-demand grocery company in the world, has such a penetration of revenue. And if you ask why, a big part of it is because of the brand and the customer experience and the customer trust that we built. So the moment we come up with a new product to the market, customers directly leave other products and just go to try the Breadfast products.

So then if you look just on an apples-to-apples basis on pricing for some of the staples versus the competitor, are you then able to charge a premium or maintain price parity? Just speaking from the U.S., for a long time, there was subsidization by the Ubers and the DoorDashes and all of a sudden, they've jacked all the fees up, but there's still a relatively sticky population. How have you sort of seen that pricing curve go for Breadfast?

Yes. Look, we -- we're really proud that we've been able to be at price parity with like offline grocery for quite a long time. So we actually price our range intentionally off like the Carrefour, we're using a web scrape. We think this is really important, right, because we aren't playing in a super high premium luxury area. We want to penetrate the middle class and Egyptians that need groceries every day. So how we think about it is -- a great analogy that we like to use for people familiar with the American market is an online Trader Joe's. So we go and find like the highest value products. We go and find suppliers in market that have historically had issued getting to market because they can't compete for shelf space in a Carrefour because of the P&Gs and the Unilevers of the world. We go on and unearth these small supplies and allow them to grow with us. So when a consumer buys some Breadfast eggs like that's like at that price point, the greatest value that they can achieve. We do have like much stronger margins on our private-label range. But ultimately, this is about us going deeper and deeper and deeper into the consumer base. So as we achieve scale, as we achieve better terms with our suppliers, our idea is that to pay this back to customers, to now enable them to spend less money on grocery but achieve higher value because that ultimately allows us not to have to pay for marketing, right? We don't have to pay for user acquisition, like user acquisition, retention aren't things that are like top of mind for either Mostafa or myself. Because customers keep coming back for this unique range of products that aren't able to be served by anything else in the market right now.

Just a few basics, I guess, that I'm trying to stitch together. Like do you have a promised delivery time?

So we promise our customers 60 minutes. We've never done that quick commerce 10 minutes or 15 minutes and organically now, our average delivery time is 56 minutes.

And then the $15 AOV, was that -- is that actual? Or was that just sort of representative -- that's actual?

That's actual, yes.

So like 4 or 5 items per delivery or something like that?

We're talking 10, yes. Basket size is 10 items.

So it's a motorcycle delivery...

That's right. Majority, yes.

And what percent would be fresh as opposed to ambient?

Yes, right now, 50% fresh, 50% non-fresh.

Okay. And -- sorry, I just wanted two more. So you just touched on the CAC topic. Well, first of all, what are gross margins like? Mid 30s, high 40s...

Close to 30% now, yes.

Close to 30%. And the CAC payback roughly? It looks like the LTV is great if it's rising over 20 months but in terms of the CAC payback, is it like a...

It's a very short CAC payback period, right? So if you think of tax sub-$5, right? And you think about a $15 AOV and 30% gross margin, it's a very, very strong LTV-to-CAC ratio but we actually don't spend much time thinking about -- like for us, it's actually about getting a product out the door, given the amount of demand there is.

And last one, just the number of SKUs in your dark stores, and then do I have it right that you also source from other groceries, you do a 3P model too? Or no, it's all 1P.

Yes. So like we -- it's fully owned, the inventory fully owned by us, but like on the back end, we either make our own products like the bakeries or to -- manufacturing for the private label or we directly act as a first-hand party with the likes of Unilevers, Pepsi, Coca-Cola, so we source everything in our back end and then we run the mid-mile-logistics and then the last-mile-logistics. So it's an end-to-end supply chain, but we don't aggregate from any grocers. We're talking now almost 6,500 active SKUs.

Thanks. Any other questions from the audience before the mic go to Andreas? I can have one. Seems you have plenty to do in Egypt still. But maybe talk a little bit about potential future geographic expansion and how you think about that?

Yes. So I mean, our vision again is from bread to everything, from Cairo to everywhere. So we're super ambitious enough to take over one day. We just started our expansion in Saudi. Right now, we are at phase zero, which is identifying our product market fit. Like we're trying to understand how can we deliver also a great customer experience for the Saudi household, super localized, super customized. So now we have a small team in Saudi trying to build for us the data points for the right product market fit without burning any money.

And on that topic, you mentioned the very good growth that you have had and then also the scale effect and the good gross margins, but what about on EBIT level?

Yes. So we achieved 100% store profitability almost 20 months ago. So on store EBITDA level, we are profitable now for blatantly, you're talking 5%, 6%, on CM3, which is contribution margin after all the store fixed costs. Company level, hopefully by Q3 -- end of Q3, beginning of Q4 like this year, Egypt will be, for cash flow, profitable. So this is the target, and we're very, very close to it.

One thing I'd add, I think a great indicator of where this can go is looking at our best locations. Our best locations today already print like 12% EBITDA. And that's honestly before a lot of optimizations come from -- on the supplier side, we're still a fraction of where like a Carrefour is in market. And so as we accrue, right, more profitability and the gross margin, I mean this is something that we're very confident we'll eventually print north of 20% EBITDA at a store-level basis.

We have another question back there. [indiscernible] and before the mic is there we will take one more. I'm super fascinated about your physical coffee shop business. So even if that's not very tech savvy, please just talk a little bit about how many coffee stores you have. How's that...

Yes. I mean we're inviting everyone to come and visit us in Cairo to try our high-quality specialty coffee, so please. So actually, I mean, lots of people were against us at the beginning, like, what are you doing? Like, why physical retail, right? And why coffee? So we always ask this question, like we are in the commodity and essential business. If I come and ask you, like how many times you eat salad per week. You can tell me like three times, four times a week. And then what's the ingredients in the salad. Like tomatoes and cucumbers, which is a natural definition to commodity. And then you go and ask people how many times you drink coffee? Not per week, but per day. And then you hear four times or three times. The great thing about coffee, it's like very high margin. Retention and frequency, like very, very high. The whole challenge is always supply chain. And we are a supply chain company. So like if we don't do it right, I think we're missing on a big opportunity. It's right now like it's a traditional retail, but like we have a milestone once we reach 30 points of sale. Right now, we're running 17 points of sale. The moment we reach 30 points of sale, actually, everything will be converted into an omnichannel experience. So we have like hundreds of thousands of active households on the app, on the platform at the moment. And basically, we want to make sure the moment we are reaching better milestones or like bigger milestones, actually Breadfast Coffee is going to be part of it. So it's part of the whole journey, and it's going to be omnichannel retail. The whole domain we are in, it's future of retail, right, like retail tech. So we are a supermarket, right? And we deliver from our fulfillment centers. So this is how we are expecting and projecting the future of shopping for the grocery needs. Also, for coffee, things will change, people still need to go and have their coffee chat, but we're going to convert everything into an omnichannel experience.

We have [indiscernible] question, and then I know Mostafa needs to run to his cab to the airport.

Yes.

Yes. I can cut it short. I was just wondering how you marry kind of a 56-minute delivery time with expanding into more fresh instantaneous projects like freshly brewed coffee. But I was -- the question was answered because I was missing the physical footprint part. So you can strike that one.

Yes, it's physical and also at the same time, we deliver from our fulfillment centers. Right now, average delivery time is 36 minutes. And basically, we -- our technology is built to give the priority to our drivers, where to deliver and how to deliver either fresh or when we built like special containers for the coffee delivery. Summer time is very different than winter times. But of course, I mean, operating this in Europe will be very, very tough. Because you only can deliver iced latte or iced Americano or you make it hot. And by the time it arrives, it's already an iced latte.

And then looking at from an operational perspective, right? So we have a 1-hour promise, the actual delivery time is 36 minutes. But the reality is that the drive time from 1 of fulfillment points to the first drop is actually some 10 minutes. So most of that time that the order is sitting and waiting is actually waiting to be batched for delivery rider and that allows us to achieve really great like delivery associated economics. But from a product perspective, right, so we know that this order is about -- going to go at this time. And so the coffee barista in the fulfillment point will then go and make that just in time. So that it arrives at the customer hot because then that's only like a 5- to 6-minute journey. But we have that technology built into our fulfillment points.

Thank you. Mostafa and Eugene.

Thank you.

Thanks.

So hi, everyone. Thanks to Per and the VNV team for inviting me to come to present, listen to all the impressive portfolio companies. My name is Bjorn Kallen, I'm the CFO of Bokadirekt. I'm keen to be here to tell you a little bit more about who we are, what we are doing and where we are going. So what is Bokadirekt? We are Sweden's #1 SaaS-enabled marketplace for health and beauty bookings. The company was founded in 2009 as a digital booking solution for SMEs but has grown into a comprehensive SaaS ERP platform for merchants of all sizes within health and beauty, where they run most of their business in addition to traditional scheduling, staff management tools. We also offer payment services and marketing on our platform. We are today, by far, the #1 SaaS provider for health and beauty merchants within Sweden. And with 13,000 merchants on the platform and more than 20,000 professional users. We are also the #1 consumer marketplace for health and beauty in Sweden. We're a well-known brand among Swedes with around 35% unaided brand awareness within the beauty segment. Each month, around 2 million Swedes, use our platforms to find, discover and book treatments. And for those of you not Swedish, that's close to 20% of our population. So I bet quite a few of you in the audience might have our app or even used it in the past month. So while we come from the SaaS side, and subscription revenues are the majority of our revenues, but we have a growing share coming from transaction-based streams from payment services, of course, but also from our marketplace business. We're currently generating around SEK 150 million in net revenues with a double-digit profitability. We're currently a team of around 100 FTEs based here in Stockholm, actually in very building within office in the north of Sweden in [indiscernible] as well. But looking a few years back, we've been backed by Sprints Capital since 2019. That's when Bokadirekt was acquired by Swedish Marketplace company called Hitta. Soon thereafter, we merged with a national peer called Itsperfect, focusing on the hairdresser segment. And in 2021, we acquired a regional player called Alpacha. Sooner thereafter in late 2021, we welcomed VNV as investors in Bokadirekt in a EUR 30 million raise, which separated Bokadirekt from Hitta. And ever since it's been a stand-alone company, again, as it was before the Hitta acquisition. Since VNV's investment, we've invested heavily into growth. We've grown the organization and we broadened our product offering. We launched in-store payments in 2021, added quite a few other types of online payment methods and added a few marketplace services as well to improve search and discovery and help consumers find offers through our app and web marketplace. In late -- or in 2023, about a year ago, all of our merchants were successfully migrated to a modern unified SaaS platform. So all Bokadirekt, Itsperfect, Alpacha merchants are currently operating on the same SaaS platform and on the same marketplace. Over this period, we have grown our revenues by close to 30%, of which around 20% organic year-over-year. And since 2019, we've roughly doubled our merchant base to around 13,000 merchants today. But zooming in a bit on our product offering, we look very much at our business as a platform where we create moats to our competition through the network effects, both on the B2B side and the B2C side of the business. But starting with B2B. Our vertically focused SaaS ERP offering is currently a system where our merchants can run and grow and do most of what they need to do in their day-to-day business. The centerpiece is, of course, our staff and calendar management module, where our merchants run their daily operations and where we process around 2 million bookings every month. But we also have integrated marketplace and marketing services that help our merchants to activate and retain their loyal customer base, but also to attract new customers to their salons from the marketplace. That's actually one of the most challenging things for small merchants within our segments to, in a cost-efficient way, generate new customers to their stores. In addition, we also offer a comprehensive suite of payment methods for online and in-store payments, which is fully integrated to our cash register and to the most popular Swedish cloud accounting platforms. So for our merchants, that's the way for them to save time, operate more efficiently, spend more time with their customers and doing what they love and let us help them create a more efficient day-to-day operation. Besides our core modules, we also offer a growing range of add-on services such as our journal, which is specifically targeting customers within, for example, the medical beauty segment and a few others. But moving on to the B2B side. We currently offer consumers in Sweden, the booking destination for health and beauty. This is where they can discover, book and pay for their services. Our app is currently the #1 app in its category in app stores in Sweden. It's larger than apps for the leading fitness chains and activity trackers and it's got a rating of 4.9 with more than 50,000 reviews on the App Store. So through the app and also on the web, as you can see, our consumers can manage and rebook appointments. They can discover new merchants and they can search for offers on the marketplace. Like I said, every month, more than 2 million Swedes use our marketplace. And we're proud to say that we have a really high marketplace NPS of more than 70 at the moment. We have generated more than 6 million reviews to our marketplace. And we get about 200,000 new ratings every month and about 50,000 new reviews. So in Sweden, we're actually larger than Google in reviews of booking providers and booking treatments. And it is this strong brand awareness and traffic to our marketplace that really differentiates us both to merchants and to consumers. We have become the go-to platform for health and beauty merchants in Sweden. And with growing traffic to our marketplace, we are able to offer them a cost-efficient way to run and to grow their business. For consumers, of course, we provide convenience by gathering all of the favorite beauty shops in one app and having order bookings, payments gathered in one place. So with around 13,000 merchants on the platform, we are more than 10x larger than our closest competitor in the Swedish market and by far larger than all of our direct competitors. We estimate that we currently have around 35% market share in our core verticals in the market. However, as you can see from the illustration here on the right, we estimate that roughly half of the market is still what we call pen and paper merchants. They actually use pen and paper or more generic booking solutions such as Google Calendar to manage their business. And this is, of course, our opportunity to continue to grow, to capture market share, of course, from our competition, but also to help more merchants discover the benefits of a proper vertical SaaS solution. So moving on to numbers. Since VNV invested in late 2021, we have seen accelerating growth, increasing revenues by almost 20% in 2022. Growing to 30% in 2023 and approaching 40% in the LTM period. And that growth really comes from all parts of the business. We're growing contract values. We're growing our merchant base, and we see payment and marketplace revenues growing more than 50% year-over-year. But it's also those investments into the organization and investments for growth. That explains the EBITDA level loss that we generated in 2022 and 2023. But on a cash EBITDA basis, so this is after what we capitalize as development expense. So this is after development expense. On cash EBITDA level, we're currently generating around 10% margin in the LTM period as a result of growth and continued -- sustained high contribution margins. In the year-to-date till April, we're trending at around 15%, and we expect that to continue to pick up during the year as we grow. So looking ahead, where is Bokadirekt going? We are currently executing on a plan that was set together with VNV and our Board to double our revenues in the coming years. And it's really -- for us to do more of the same. We think that for new younger merchants entering the market, adopting a SaaS-based ERP solution like Bokadirekt will be the obvious choice. It would be the obvious choice of managing and growing their business, and it will be a way for us to continue to eating through the 50% that is currently offline or on generic solutions. We're also continuously broadening our software and module offering. To deepen our collaboration with all merchants, help them work more efficiently and help us capture a larger share of their business and grow together. So on the payment side, like I mentioned, we currently have a comprehensive set of payment services offer to our merchants from in-store solutions to a number of ways of paying for bookings online. But although more than half of our merchants currently use some sort of Bokadirekt payments, more than 80% of transactions are processed today outside of our payment services. So that's a huge opportunity for us. And with fast payouts to merchants, strengthening of their cash flow with high convenience with direct integrations and accounting, we see more and more merchants coming to us and using our payment services. In fact, the adoption is, of course, much higher than that among our newer merchants. On the marketplace side, that's a part of our business that's grown rapidly over the past years, with new services. And as we continue to deliver more and more value with more and more density on the marketplace. But each month, we process around SEK 1 billion of GMV over our platform and our current monetization of that GMV is, of course, only a fraction. So last but not least, while we are fully focused on continuing to deliver on that 2x revenue plan organically in our core segments and with our core solution, we have a proven M&A track record after the acquisition of Itsperfect and Alpacha. And M&A could, of course, be an opportunity for us to continue to strengthen our marketplace with more merchants or to entering to new verticals or new markets as long as they are complementary to where we are today. So that's a bit about Bokadirekt. That's where we come from. And that's where we hope that we're going in the coming years.

Thank you, Bjorn. Very interesting, a bit more mature company, maybe perhaps than Breadfast, but still very exciting. And as you said, you were coming out of a period of heavy investing in the product offering and the organization over the last 2.5, 3 years. We're just seeing the effect of that in the profitability as well. If you look ahead 2, 3 years, where do you think that margin potential is in Bokadirekt offering today? Can you talk a little bit about where we can end up?

Yes, of course. So thanks. I mean we -- like you said, we brought on a lot of OpEx in 2021, 2022 to achieve this growth. But with more than 90% gross margins across our business so it's a highly scalable model. And we're currently staffed to continue to invest in our platform. We have the organization to make improvements, both on the B2B side -- the B2B side, we have the sales team in place. We have most of the people that we need. So we expect profitability to continue to improve over the coming years. And there's no reason why we should not be able to generate best-in-class SaaS company EBIT margins in a few years.

Thanks. I think we have a question in the middle here...

Yes. Thank you for the presentation. I have a question against the backdrop of the cap table that includes both Sprints and VNV, obviously, who's been involved with Hemnet and this is not too much of a different business model. So are they trying, I guess this is a question for both of you, but are you trying to apply the same recipe, if you will, from Hemnet to Bokadirekt.

I'll let Bjorn answer. I just noticed that they have one product that's called exactly the same that -- one of Hemnet's products.

I mean our business is two-sided, right? We earn revenues from our merchants, that's the majority of our business. That gives us a lot of stability with more than 50% of our revenues being recurring monthly, things that can be predicted 1 year or 2 into the future if there are no shocks. On the B2C side, and on the marketplace side, of course, we're trying to learn as much as possible. We're quite impressed with what Hemnet has achieved. And we see the value of having that marketplace dominance as they've been able to build in the Swedish market. So that's what we've been investing towards. We think by continuing to strengthen that by continuing to deliver more and more services that can help our merchants get more visibility on the platform, that's one service, we currently offer it's called [indiscernible] and it gives you more visibility in search results. It's something that we have been copying with pride from Hemnet of course, but -- and we think that those services will eventually both benefit our merchants as they can invest in what's growing their business and the consumers as we continue to improve the search and discovery functionalities on the marketplace.

And just a follow-up on that. You say that 50% of the market -- on the B2B is still pen and paper. So what's the strategy here? Is it to try to capture that other -- that 50% and then be more aggressive on pricing? Or are you -- are we already sort of seeing some price hikes in those LTM growth figures?

I mean we've repackaged our SaaS pricing about a year ago. And that repackaging was done for 2 reasons. Essentially, we migrated merchants from a few different platforms. We want to create a harmonized structure, but we also wanted to introduce a price model which more fairly represented the value generated from our marketplace. In effect, it improved MRRs per merchant since we could tap better into where we can see the willingness to pay from -- the merchants actually value the marketplace. We think we'll be able to continue to do that within certain cohorts of our merchant base. Of course, it's very different. What they want to pay for, what's important to them? Is it retention? Is it current customers? Or is it new customers? But we think we'll be able to continue to offer new services and price them effectively to our existing merchant base. I mean, at the same time, as you can see, with only 35% market share in Sweden, we're not going to let anybody else build a marketplace here. So we are going after those 50%, of course. That's important for us, and we think we're well positioned to do it.

[indiscernible] maybe we wait for the mic. Maybe on that, if you just rank, if you look at top line growth over the next 1 or 2 years, you have pricing power, an increased product offering and the increase of merchants. So if you should rank them, where do you see the main drivers coming in?

I mean I think the most important part for us is to maintain platform growth so continue to grow on merchants base, and we think we'll be able to do that in the high single or low double-digit region in the coming years. In addition to that, it's really payments that's growing more than 50% year-over-year at the moment and a more targeted rollout of services like I mentioned, where we see that our platform model and our marketplace model delivers value to our merchants.

Yes, cool. So just thinking out loud here, but I was wondering if you feel like there's an opportunity to kind of help large merchants to opt into dynamic pricing to kind of help fill -- I can imagine that health and beauty, there's quite a lot of idle times, over capacity, that kind of thing. Is there sort of a potential opportunity that you see? I mean, because you, obviously, have direct insight into exactly how the calenders are booked, so is there an opportunity to kind of help nudge them to kind of opt into slightly lower margin pricing and just to fill up capacity and fill up slots? Where obviously -- as long as they're making contribution margin to overheads, they should be, in a perfect world and a rational world, be willing to assume a bit of haircut?

Yes, you're absolutely right. I mean, for the average merchant, I think filling one more slot every day gives you what? 20%, 25% revenue boost with no cost. So that's really important. We already do that. Actually, we have one, let's say, a separate marketplace offering, which is called System sista minuten, so last-minute appointment where our merchants actively post their availabilities over the coming 18 or 24 hours and fill up empty spots. It's a commission-based product that we offer them. We also do as part of like the regular scheduling and pricing and planning, we allow them to set flexible pricing for certain slots. But I think when this becomes really interesting, as you allude to, is when you can make it dynamic. And with us processing 2 million bookings every month, we have a fairly good visibility on what will sell out and what will not sell out. We know what the pricing is in the market. So that's something we have to be looking at, how we can merchants like maximize their business, grow their business while also helping consumers find attractive repriced slots with near salons.

Another question from me, Andreas is coming, two questions in the audience, but could you just talk a little -- a little bit about the different categories of merchants that if you look at the -- like what type of merchants you have on the platform? What are the most obvious next potential verticals where you think you could go in and convert more merchants?

No. So we are -- I think we're fairly representative on the market in general. So looking at our merchant base of around 13,000, we have around 20% hairdressers and a little bit less than that in massage and the rest is really a long tail of nails and lashes and medical beauty and foot and whatnot. When we think about vertical expansion, it's really from a marketplace perspective. So where can we find merchants that our customers already go to and where they can like with credibility, book them and find them through our apps without saying any specifics, that's how we're thinking, but actually how we're currently acting on it as well.

Thank you. You have a question over there, first?

Yes. If you could give some color on the health care allowance? [indiscernible] How much is paid through that today? And how much do you see that would increase in coming years?

Yes. I mean in Sweden, the health allowance for those of you who don't know, is a tax-free stipend from employers to employees of a few hundred euros a year. What make you qualified for the health care allowance is really the service you provide. And a meaningful part of the services on our platform, are allowed for this wellness stipend. Particularly when in massage. And this is one part of our business where we've seen a lot of demand in those wellness segments over the past years and where we can see that part of that is, of course, fueled by those government or employer subsidies.

A quick question regarding sort of the difference between market penetration in the Swedish market versus geographical expansion. How are you thinking about penetrating that additional 50% of pen and paper merchants versus going to, let's say, Norway and Denmark to expand in those regions as well?

I mean for us, if we can acquire one additional customer at the same unit cost in Sweden and in a new market, we will go after the Swedish merchant every day, because in our offering, although our SaaS offering is best-in-class and offers more than all of our competitors still. That's where we create the most value. And so for every new merchant that we add to the platform, we don't only like grow our business, grow our revenue, but we also create more value on the marketplace. So that's why we will continue to invest in Sweden, and there's no barriers as of now for us to double our business in Sweden. But I mean, of course, the Nordics is an interesting region for us, and our business is quite scalable. But entry into a new market will also most likely be with a marketplace perspective at least on the mid-term.

Just curious on the last -- or the previous question on filling gaps and empty slots and so on. Do you have your own sort of solution to send out reminders or so? Or do you work with CPaaS providers?

We have that integrated into the platform. So I mean all merchants, they have a small CRM, if you will, in the ERP solution and where they can filter out, they can see that you haven't done your nails or been to the hairdresser in the past 6 weeks, and you probably should -- and that's the way that they can work to sort of activate their existing merchant base. They do that from our platform. It's also through our platform, that they can post discounted sort of last-minute slots to fill out with potentially new merchants -- new customers to the salons.

Thank you. Unless there's any more questions in the audience. I think it's time for a 15- to 20-minute break, and then we will come back for you online as well with BlaBlaCar. So see you in 20. Thanks. [Break]

Super. So final company for today, super exciting company. So we have Sokratis joining us to present Numan. The floor is yours.

Thanks for having me again. It was 9 months since the last one. So I'm actually glad to be back here today because I said we're going to do 3 things when I was here in September, and we're well on track doing all 3 of them. So for those these of you who were not here in -- not here, in Paris in September. We had set a goal of being profitable by the end of 2023, moving towards cash generation in 2024 and then winning the GLP-1 opportunity that was emerging in the European and global markets, we're going to talk a little bit about all of those three things today. But let's start by focusing again on what drives us at Numan and what the mission is, what everybody shows up to work every single day. And that is to help you maximize life to use technology to help you lead a healthier, happier, longer life and to do that at scale. And that mission has been there from day one and now almost 5 -- almost 6 years in actually since founding the business, we're starting to see that really coming to life. So before we speak about what we do and how we do it, I just want to kind of zoom out a little bit and recap what's happening with patients. So we're seeing a real transformation in men's health and health in general. So the stereotype is true. This is what we can all recognize, men typically do struggle to care about their health. One in two men is overweight, one in three men above the age of 30 will have some issue with their hormonal health, one in three men will suffer from some sort of sexual dysfunction, and about half of men are suffering from hair loss. Typically, we don't engage with the health care system as much as we should. We go to the doctor less. We take prevention as seriously as we should, and as a result we die younger, about 5 years less than women. But crucially, we spend a large part of our lives in suboptimal health, prevalence of diabetes and other diseases that really reduce quality of life, are more prevalent in men. And they shouldn't be. There is no physiological -- biological, actually, reason that drives that. And a lot of it has to do with behavior. But that behavior is changing. And what we see is these 4 megatrends that are really shaking men from their inertia. On one hand, we're all now a lot more aware and interested in our health. We understand and we talk about longevity a lot more than we used to. These are some of the things that I was into when I was starting the business and when I was thinking about the business about 12 years ago, you're really starting to see now in the mainstream. We start to understand and measure our health and taking action based on the data. We're talking about Brian Johnson, pretty much every dinner that I talk about now -- I go to, there will be a conversation about Brian Johnson. And we also look at role models, that the spouse behaviors that were unthinkable even 5 years ago. There have been a number of catalysts around that. But what that means is that we now have on a global scale, these new cohorts that are coming to market and they're seeking care. When we survey men, we ask them a bunch of questions, and we also ask them how interested and concerned and where you are about your physical health. And that number in the last 3 years has doubled, and it's reached 67%. Which I found surprising actually. I was not expecting the shift to be that drastic. A lot of it we can attribute it to COVID, a lot of it we can attribute it to these kind of trends that I was talking about before. We're not exactly sure why, but men in general now are more interested in their health in increasing numbers. And crucially, they also start displaying behaviors that are healthier. We drink less and we smoke less. So that means there's kind of this changing awareness, this changing appetite, this changing propensity to engage. And also for us, really interestingly, people are prepared to pay for that. The majority of men will pay for specialist care and the market in the U.K., what's called the self-pay market, has been growing at 9% CAGR over the last 4 years, reaching 43 billion in the U.K. alone. Men also typically value convenience and discretion and use -- are early adopters of things like telemedicine, which means that this was the ideal place for us to start the business. But things changed even further over the last couple of years. And the big driver has been the increased awareness, but also action against obesity. Now obesity, I believe we all understand that it's bad for our health, but I think we fail to appreciate exactly how devastating it is. Obesity is linked to a number of comorbidities. It is linked to 10 different types of cancer. It is costing the U.K. economy about 100 billion a year alone. And we're now on track to add another 4.5 billion people to the world's population by 2035. It's a tragedy. And it's a tragedy that has downstream devastating effects again on that quality of life that we've been talking about. The U.K., where Numan is based, is the proud gold medal winner when it comes to obesity, and a population that is either obese or overweight at the rate of 70%. So this is an epidemic. It demands urgent action. It's something that we were effectively fighting a losing battle. But then we have a new weapon in the fight against obesity, and that is the arrival of those drugs called anti-obesity medication, GLP-1s. The names that you may recognize are things like Wegovy, Mounjaro or Ozempic. These are drugs that, for the first time, represent a reliable way for you to actually control and lose weight. They are drugs that are administered once a week in the form of injection. They are drugs that predictably produce 15% to 20% of weight loss within 6 months for most patients. But despite of the numbers and the demand that you see there and the market opportunity that they create, which is estimated to be 100 billion by 2030, they really shift the mindset and behaviors and what is accepted when it comes to being obese. So now we recognize obesity as a disease. We talk about people that have obesity. And we not only are, if you like, invited or allowed, we are encouraged to do something about it in a way that uses medication and doesn't solely rely on behavioral change. And we're now in a position to lead in this category. It's something we've been investing a lot over the last couple of years. And I'm going to show you what the impact of that has been. So to recap, when you think about what we're building and why and when, most importantly, we see this kind of convergence of 3 key factors: the increased demand that is generated by the prevalence of chronic conditions, the digitalization of the health infrastructure and regulation, but also, most crucially, these new behaviors and new demands that we're seeing when it comes to patients and customers. And that creates that optimal timing for us to be building the business that we're building. So this is the context of the patient in the market. I'll walk you through a little bit what we do in case you're not familiar with Numan. So effectively, we take a model that has been designed population. It's designed to create health outcomes at the population level. It is designed with view as a patient being, if you like, at the end of that process. It is a system that is full friction and cost, whether you are using a public health ecosystem or private health system. In the U.K., the NHS used to be the pride of England. It is one of the world's most pioneering health systems completely free for everyone, generally world-class when it comes to things that can save your life. But satisfaction in the NHS has gone from 70% in about 2013 to 20% when it was measured last year. And that is quite a precipitous drop, and it is not only the result of chronic underinvestment, which is the easy factor to zero in on, which is, of course, a reason. But it is also because of that changing nature of expectations, that it's completely failing to make. So we take that model and we flip it in its head. We put you at the center and then wrap everything else around you. And we're designing an experience and a proposition that is designed to maximize your health outcomes, not the population's. What that looks like in practice. It's this integrated patient experience. With Numan, you can experience and engage in education. You can actually go and do your own diagnostic with us and with a set of partners that we use. You can speak to one of our clinical professionals. We will deliver the medication to you on a regular basis. And we'll also onboard you on a platform that is there to provide you the tools, the content, the support and, most recently, the coaching to make you healthier. The business is a mixture between a health care provider. We are a fully registered health care provider in the U.K. We operate our own pharmacy. We manufacture now our own line of generic medication and supplements, and we distribute that directly through our own channels, but also through partner channels now as well. So we're fully vertically integrated. We work with and are regulated by a number of different regulators in the U.K., and we're experts at doing that at scale. So that capability, we bring it to life when it comes to touching a man's life across the entire -- from the early typically late 20s, early 30s, all the way to their 60s and 70s. And we have patients who we help with for a number of conditions, whether it is the sexual function, their aesthetics, their hormonal health and their obesity. We do that because we have their trust, we have the data, we have the ability to provide a holistic care experience, and we can also, of course, have a commercial end customer experience with them as well. What powers this is what we call the Numan Unified Health platform. It is a system that goes through this entire wheel -- and of course, we do also have a flywheel as well. I didn't know it was part of the brief, but we have it because it's true. So this is what we've been building and what we've been investing in for the last 5 years. Everything has to do with your data, the education we provide the products we can deliver to you, whether that is generic medication supplement, or any other kind of product that can help you get healthier. We deliver care that can be both telehealth and coaching. All of that through our own pharmacy and our own clinical management system, and those capabilities we built and also acquired in 2021. We optimize fulfillment, I would say, across different channels. Recently, we acquired our own WDA, which is that license that enables us to have those products made for us. And we'll also connect with a range of diagnostic labs that can help you understand where you are right now, but also help you be put on a different path around prevention. And of course, all of that is amplified and brought to life with our brand, which is a category-leading brand in the U.K. It's the other part of the business we've heavily invested in besides just marketing spend. So the flywheel at core of the business is one that spins faster as we grow, the more patients we have, the more data we collect, the better health outcomes we can produce, the stronger the claims we can make, and the faster we can make that flywheel spinning. The other lens to see this is the foundation that we have now built for the business. We have a foundation that can let us scale across therapeutic areas. We see huge growth opportunities in areas of health that are focused on men and women as well. We can go deeper in the services that we can provide to you. And of course, we can go deeper and change the relationship that we have with you as a patient. So you can see Numan becoming a much more integrated core part of the extended health ecosystem, one that can deliver superior patient experience, superior health outcomes, and do that at a much more accessible, affordable price point as well. So this is what the business does and how we do it. Now I want to talk a little bit about the business and how it's been changing from a numbers perspective. As I was saying when I was here in September, we had that goal of being profitable in December 2023, and then, of course, stay profitable after that. We did do that. We've now served, since launching, about 0.5 million patients in the U.K. alone. Most of them women, most of them kind of for the areas that I was talking about at the beginning. This year, we will serve 200,000 patients. The LTV to CAC has completely been transformed, and that number here is out of date. It is now above 4. We've been growing at 100% year-on-year run rate since the beginning of this year. And we're now also, of course, with a stable EBITDA positive base where we can use to grow. We got to this point by investing heavily in the brand, in the technology, in the capabilities of the business, both from like a physical infrastructure, from a compliance framework, and of course, the people within the team. We have been through transformation. And now we see from here on a very, very different path to growth and scale. If I can take you through some of the core, if you like, levers that are driving the business, this is what we -- we're extremely proud. We've been able to scale revenue while at the same time reducing and stabilizing CAC, and crucially accelerating the time that it takes for somebody -- for the cost of acquiring a patient to be paid back into the business and fueled back again into growth. Again, remember, the last funding round that we had done is in 2021. We've introduced additional capital into the business since then. But this has been the outcome of superior product performance, patient experience and commercial outcomes as well. The last factor here, the payback and how that's accelerating. This has been the engine behind the business. So you see how much we've dropped that cost of acquisition. Again, this is, of course, shifting the strategy and going through a different phase of growth, but that investment that we made in the brand early on, that did pay back. Those additional channels that we found, those did prove to be effective, but also all the work that we continue to do on the product. We're now in a great position where we have reached that profitability, but also we're managing to scale the business to a very different place right now. This year, we've been rewriting the plan as we've been going along for the better, which is -- we've been pretty good at predicting where we're going to be. This year, we've been a little bit off, but we're revising out and we keep raising the bar and the team keeps responding. And if you look at the -- if you like, the high level core numbers of the business, you will see how revenue has been increasing, how the revenue per patient has also been growing. The contribution margin after marketing, that was typically, of course, negative when we started, we pushed very much to get it to positive in 2023 and now we see it scaling. But crucially, the one number that gives me the most confidence for the business is the revenue now that we retain for the years before. So that was 56% in 2023. That's revenue from '22 to '23. In '24, it will be closer to 65%, and we see it accelerating from here on. So when you put all that together, we are working on an aggressive growth plan for the business, a plan that sees us growing by about -- almost 70% CAGR between now and 2028. It's also what makes us all excited about the years ahead of us. It's a plan that is predominantly based on things that we know, things that we've been executing extremely well over the last 5 years and over the last couple of years, and that is men's health. It is the opportunity around obesity. It's, of course, expanding into female health. And by the way, we are a men's health business, but we serve thousands of female patients as well when it comes to a diagnostic product, a supplement and OTC hair product, but also when it comes to our obesity proposition. So now from here on, the transformation that we've been going through is going back to that original vision. We're now at a point where we've built that unified health platform in the U.K. We've built the leading men's health brand in the U.K. And we've gotten to this point by primarily helping men solve problems in areas of health that are stigmatized and underserved. But the direction of travel that we go into is for Numan and the Numan potential additional brands to create this integrated unified health ecosystem to become a global authority in virtual care. We're writing the playbook in a lot of these things. We know -- we're not the -- I'm not the one that has thought that you need to actually figure out ways to help people with medication but also help them change their behavior as well. This is the best practice. People have been talking about all those things for years. It takes a company like us to be able to put that in practice, and company that, again, own that data in that patient journey end-to-end. So this is what we're doing. We're proving that it generates superior results. And now it's for us to actually generate the proper medical grade -- clinical grade proof points to publish those, to expand the proposition in breadth and in depth and become that holistic health partner for you for life. That's the North Star for the business. And that North Star is to build that global winner in health, a company that changes the lives of millions for the better, a company that is there for you every single day and stays with you for decades. And we now see those people, how they interact, and will use us multiple times a week when it comes to our digital products. A business that has a positive impact for millions and tens of millions globally, and a business that we're all excited to build. This is what motivates the team to show up at work every single day. And again, what's the -- for me really exciting is that work that we've done in the last 5 years, how it has put us in a position. We're at the perfect point to actually capitalize on transformational opportunities that we see in front of us. Going through that inflection point and being in a leading position with a fantastic opportunity to win. So thank you, VNV, for the support from day 1 and from having me again here today.

Short Q&A as well. So please. Before we take some questions from the audience. I mean, very successful last year. One of the main drivers have been the weight loss GLP-1-based drugs, which was -- yes, I don't think anyone has not noticed it with Novo Nordisk exploding on the [ cap table ]. Could you talk a little bit about that demand you've seen? I mean there's been some supply constraint as you have Novo and Eli Lilly today in the market. But I guess all of the big pharma companies are coming with similar compounds. So how has that -- how you seen that demand like specifically for Numan? And then in a more general context, where do you think it's going when supply opens up?

Sure. So the demand has been unprecedented, and the demand has been surprising for everybody in the industry. I was -- when we first started looking at this, which was 2 years ago now -- actually, more than 2 years ago. One of the big skepticisms that I had was would people be prepared to just have an injection delivered to them that contains this endocrine disruptor that will actually affect their appetite and just go ahead and inject themselves? And it turns out people are completely prepared to do this, right? The other thing here that is there's been a lot of press, a lot of kind of noise around the category, the average BMI that people have that -- when they come to Numan, it's 33, which is well into obesity territory, right? So this is -- I was speaking to somebody the other day who said this is a cosmetic thing. It is not a cosmetic thing. We're talking about patients, and we're talking a massive burden to the national health system, but also massive burden to those patients' day-to-day lives. So the problem is so massive that we were all caught unaware of how exactly people would react. And also, keep in mind that innovation and how it changes things and when it takes these phased shifts and, all of a sudden, you are from one world to a different world. These medications are not new. The difference is that up until a few years ago, you had a product that you needed to use daily which, of course, was a suboptimal patient experience, and it made it cost more. It used to cost about [ 350 ] a month. The moment the price point came to about [ 200 ] or below and the experience became from daily to weekly demand absolutely exploded. So demand, we don't see any sign of it abating. And by the way, we, of course, all know, right now, we're in the early phases, right? So there will be some normalization, there will be -- we're really beginning to understand the long-term usage also of these products and how they should be used. So you will see a huge body of patients that are being onboarded right now, that will continue. But also you will see a huge number of people that still haven't had a chance to engage properly in this category. Crucially, I should mention here that we don't offer just the medication. The medication has never been -- was never designed to be just the drug that you take on its own. We provide a fully holistic weight management and obesity treatment program. It includes the medication. It includes a doctor consultation that's optional. It offers you a diagnostic product. Again, that is optional. And it onboards you on a dedicated mobile app that has content, tools and coaching. And we see the people that go through that experience, not necessarily the diagnostic, but engage with the app and the coaching, which is a huge percentage of those patients, get better results in the short term and also get better results in the long term. So we're figuring out exactly what the future will look like. I believe the companies that will emerge and scale from here are the ones that figure out how can you actually provide that behavioral support experience and use technology to do a lot of the heavy lifting that do find ways also that can scale clinically, and the companies that are close to people like Novo and Lilly and good partners to them.

Thank you. Yes, just a follow-up there. I mean given, as you say, it's very important that you actually adhere to the protocol to avoid serious side effects and such, so digital platforms like Numan should have a very, very strong position in taking this and helping patients. Have you seen competition trying to come in? And how is that? Or is it still very early? I mean you're just in the U.K. so far, but...

Well, you know the cliche, right, no competition, no market. There is, of course, people that are doing this. We're not the only ones. The thing that we're focusing on is, again, can we deliver the gold standard and the best proposition? And nobody knows exactly what that looks like. We have strong opinions what that should be. So we're focusing on that. We're focusing also on finding ways to grow the relevance that we have to the people that know Numan. And by doing that and by actually being a trusted known brand, I think we have a lot of advantages compared to the general market. And I believe those are going to continue. They actually -- in fact, going to get stronger, because, as we've been scaling, we've been able also to invest more and faster in the category. And I'm not just talking about awareness, but I'm talking about the work that we do on the product and the platform and the infrastructure. And the things that you can do today with Numan, you can't really do on any of the platforms that are in market, in the U.K., but also, in many cases, globally as well. And very soon, the things that you're going to see how we treat patients are going to be drastically different. Because we're working on the state of the art of how you treat obesity and how you help somebody manage their weight as well.

Thank you. Any questions in the audience? Otherwise, I have another one. I think you mentioned somewhere here that you're also looking at new verticals to expand into. Can you be concrete or specific about 1 or 2 verticals that you think will be the next or the near-term focus?

Sure. So hormonal health is a key area also we're investing in. Hormonal health for men, typically that is testosterone, and for women is generally kind of the hormonal imbalances as they approach and as they enter menopause as well. But again, with men, when it comes to hormonal health, there are a number of solutions that you can find when it comes to, let's say, going on a TRT protocol and doing that pretty quickly. We're taking, again, we're building a different proposition, one that helps you understand why you may be suffering from symptoms that can be attributed to your hormonal health being not what it should be, helping you understand those and then take action to address them. And then if appropriate, also offering you like pharmacotherapy that can help you optimize your hormones. So I believe that's fundamental. It's another hidden epidemic, if you like, that is not really understood at scale and definitely not served at scale, where we have an opportunity to take everything that we've built and create that gold standard. And then once we do that for men, the natural next step would be to do that for women too. What I'm also excited about, which is this is not a new condition, is the work that we're doing on diagnostics. And again, we're not inventing new biomarkers or anything like that. We're just making it really easy for you not to have to think about when and what you should be testing, making that frictionless, kind of invisible, and help you take a very different approach when it comes to prevention, so that we can detect risks, we can detect where you are, let's say, suboptimal, but then, crucially, because we are vertically integrated, help you take action to address them.

You mentioned M&A on 1 slide. Could you provide some more color on what you would be interested in? And then also, like, is it companies doing similar stuff in other markets to accelerate your geographical expansion? Or is it more finding companies in adjacent verticals to bolt on to your existing offering?

So we're starting with adjacent kind of bolt-on targets. So we're looking at companies, one, that can accelerate areas that we're interested in, in both kind of number of patients but also revenue and profitability. We're looking at companies that have capabilities and IP that we don't have, especially in the way that you can treat patients. We're looking at companies that have capabilities that we may be missing or that are currently outsourcing, that can enhance our margin profile and also make the experience again tighter. And then when it comes to international growth, we're also very interested in companies that can help us grow Numan to be an international brand, faster with lower kind of risk profile as well.

Thank you. It seems like there's no more questions in the audience. Thank you a lot, Sokratis. And before we finish off, we're running a few minutes late. Per, some final remarks perhaps?

No, not really. Thank you, Sokratis and all the presenters. I have enjoyed them a lot. I hope you have too. And yes, that's all from us, folks. And now there's some drinks outside, I think. So we'll do this again, maybe in Cairo, maybe somewhere else. We'll be back on that. But thank you, everyone. [Break]

Welcome back from the recess. I hope you're all energized up with food and drinks. And there will be more of that. But first, some presentations that I look forward to a lot. So without further ado, I introduce Piotr Jas, who has been with BlaBlaCar for as long as we have, more, 12 years. Without further ado, over to you.

Thanks, Per. Thanks for hosting me here, and though I'm here replacing our CEO, who couldn't make it. Hopefully, next event, you'd be able to also meet him as it was last time in Paris. We'll try to share a few words about BlaBlaCar, about our performance, about the vision we have. And I'm sure that most of you know what BlaBlaCar is, yet I will start with a bit of an intro of what we do, why we do. What's the vision of BlaBlaCar is basically become the go-to-market place for shared travel and how we approach that topic. So I don't know if you are aware of all those figures, but basically, most of transportation happens -- most people traveling between cities, use their own cars or travel by cars and it's very much the same whether it's an emerging market or a developed market. It's also not very dependent on the development of the transportation network in the country. We have countries with very developed rail network or bus network, and still most of people will take cars to travel between cities. No surprise. I think that none of the transportation network can cover entire market -- entire country with a granular network enough to cater all people's needs. On top of that, and that's the figure that actually started all the development of BlaBlaCar, most of those cars travel empty. And I'm not referring here to trips that happen around big cities, commuting trips. I'm referring to long distance trips, for those long-distance trips. Even though you might associate them with the family traveling in a car full of luggage and kids yelling there, it's actually 2 people traveling in a car. And to add to that, actually, transportation is responsible for most of the global CO2 emissions. And within that, actually, road transportation is a vast majority. So a lot of people talk about planes actually contributing a lot to global CO2 emissions. If you look at the contribution, actually, it's road transportation. And actually, it's a lot about passenger transportation, not freight transportation. So those figures are a background of the problem we are trying to tackle. And how are we doing that? So basically, there are 3 pillars that BlaBlaCar is built around. Basically, we aggregate supply. In first place, we aggregate supply of car poolers. So globally, we -- in '23, we had 7 million people who are sharing their seats in the car and accepting passengers to travel with them. We also aggregate bus operators. So we're trying to optimize their business by maximizing the load factor of those buses, maximizing how they fill up seats in their buses globally. We -- for that, we connected to our tech layer of 4,000 bus operators globally, and we're still expanding that in other markets. And we are working on connecting train operators. So here, we mentioned that we launched Spain in '24. It's pretty much already happening because we sold first tickets over the last 2 weeks in Spain. So it's live in Spain, although if you land on Spanish BlaBlaCar platform, you might not find them because it's still being gradually rolled out. So I'm not lying here, but it's happening. We also developed a fairly unique tech to enable that. I don't know if any of you played with BlaBlaCar app, but look like very straightforward to match a passenger with a driver or the bus operator. Where most of the magic actually happens is where regular passenger connects with a regular driver. And it's fairly difficult to actually match people. It's something that BlaBlaCar was developing over the last 15 years. I joined the company in 2012. And back then, it was already like a fairly complex tech solution to be built. But it was more resembling and classified. Now it's a very advanced tech engine that helps to match people that travel along the way when passenger is searching for a route between 2 places, which drivers haven't planned to stop at. And then they finally meet in trouble. It's magic, and it's actually generating most of the growth for BlaBlaCar through a positive word of mouth I will show it later. So on the passenger side, as I said, there is a really sneak up that people are evaluating as a very, very positive experience. All that is built, thanks to a significant team of engineers, which actually are more than 40% of the staff. And that's what we always relied on no matter of like what were the bumps on the road. Actually, we invested heavily in building this tech platform and this team that is at the core of BlaBlaCar. And then shifting to another pillar, which is the users, the passengers that are traveling, thanks to our platform. We provide affordable, cheap environmentally-friendly solution that actually has a very strong brand. You will see it on the next slide. That's how it looks like. I mean, it might be looking fairly straightforward and nothing specific. What's really important is behind that. As you can see in France, you can basically find on any particular route. Drivers were offering their rights. You can find buses and trains. And when you look at outside of Europe market, you would see that we aggregate the majority of the VAS offering, and combine it with the carpool offers from our own drivers. So what's the ambition based on what I just shared? Basically, when you look at the global market, you have -- when you look at the transportation, hotels, you would see that there are global leaders in almost every vertical now. For city transportation, you'd have Uber; for hotels, you have Booking.com; for shared accommodation, you have Airbnb. But when you look at intercity transportation, there is no player which is aggregating all these offerings globally. So you would find the local champions, local regional leaders on buses, on trains. There is one clearly known for being a leader on carpooling, which is named BlaBlaCar. There's no one who is aggregating all of that globally, and that's our ambition. That's what we aim at. That's what we already started to build, and we are actually in some markets, when you look at Brazil, we are the only player that aggregates all the bus offering, carpool offering, and enables passengers to go for that experience on one app. So how carpooling works? I may be mention that because, even though you seem to know BlaBlaCar very well, still people sometimes mistake it with -- make a mistake of associating that with ride-hailing apps. I think there is a huge difference between what BlaBlaCar does and those solutions do. BlaBlaCar is built around a cost-sharing concept. So basically, we technically prevent people from generating profit on the platform. And it's very important. It's actually a paradigm that helps us to be a platform that's not under scrutiny of regulators because of the simple reason, like basically, the activity on the platform is not meant to generate profit. It's meant to have a cost-sharing platform. So when you as a driver is publishing the ride, I know, from Stockholm to Goteborg and you know that the fuel would cost you EUR 80. Basically, if you find 3 passengers, they would contribute by EUR 60 to your cost of this route. And that's it. So this attracts nonprofessional supply. This enables passengers to have a very transactional experience on the platform, basically find a driver, book a ride, and travel together, and most countries pay online for that booking. And given what I've shown in the earlier slides, actually, there is almost infinite network to scale that because, even though we became a global leader, I think we are tackling like 10%, 20% of the use cases of what our drivers are doing. So even within the driver base we have, we still can expand their use cases until they can publish more trips and take more passengers. And of course, there are much more drivers that we have never attracted to our platform and we still can do that in existing geographies and, beyond that, expanding to new countries. What's interesting is that actually the experience of the product, as I said, it's very unique. And once people successfully match on our platform, they really love the product, love the brand. And it creates like extremely viral growth based on very positive word of mouth. So when you look at our traffic on the platform, basically, 95% of this traffic is direct. People type BlaBlaCar or open the app. We don't need to invest in acquiring drivers because the story is simple, like the driver once with some passengers, he or she would see that they can offset half or even all the cost of what the expense for their journey. And that's a very great story to tell to your friends, family, and then attract users. On passenger side, it's the same. When you're a passenger you'd find a route -- ride on an axis on a route, which you cannot find any other mean of transportation and you feel like you were saved by BlaBlaCar. So that's a very viral product and it tracks a lot of usage. So that's a fairly unique aspect of the product. On an opposite side, you do have a bigger challenge when attracting bus passengers because the experience is not so obvious. So I think combining carpool with bus is great. But having only bus on our platform, it's a commodity. It's not sexy. If you buy a train ticket. You would not call your friend and say, well, it was a great experience. They booked it on train app. It doesn't sound like that. On carpool, you can say it. So that's a unique value of BlaBlaCar. And we are shifting actually from this carpool core, which will be always unique, and I think we can grow it. And as you see, we still grow it in existing geographies. But we are adding a new mean of transportation bus. So since 2019, we've been growing that space. And actually, that's mostly growing outside of Europe, although in Western Europe, we have some of the bus offering as well. What we focus though on Western Europe is actually the means of transportation that dominates there, which is train. So when you look at the transportation landscape, like carpool would be a niche compared to train. And it's obvious like for converting to carpool, you need to change people's habits, convince them that it's something cool, it's something that provides value for you. But in most cases, you would take a train. And I think that's where we want to tap into a wallet of people whom we already have on our platform, so we're traveling with us, and increase their frequency by adding on top of 1 train trip -- a carpool trip, like 3 or 4 train trips over the year. So that's what I mentioned. We still are growing very fast in markets, which we call un-monetized which is a future revenue potential and EBITDA potential of the company. Those markets grow still very, very fast. Amongst them, Brazil, India, Mexico as the ones that contribute to this growth. And as I said, this market does not require any investments in terms of marketing, in terms of team on the ground, this is a very light asset, low operationally heavy business. What is planned for next years? As I mentioned, is that those markets would be monetized, and the monetization of how we plan to do it and how we already did it in several markets like Ukraine, Central Eastern Europe, is that we are adding a service fee for passengers who are just simply paying that in the process of booking a trip. We've already proven that in Ukraine and CE. Now fine-tuning still the product because I think that it can be improved. We will be scaling that in Brazil, then India, then Mexico. On top of that, what we're benefiting from, and thanks to this carpool growth, is that all those incremental users that are being added on carpool, they are converting in certain extent to bus usage. So if you add the 15 million bus -- carpool passengers. And if in those markets, you have the bus offering on your platform, these people will convert to bus tickets without any investments. So like you don't need to pay for marketing to acquire a bus passenger. You just simply tell your existing carpool users that, from now onwards, they can buy a bus ticket on your platform. And that's also a quite heavy and a strong growth lever that we can leverage in the future. So also what I mentioned earlier is the synergies that actually carpool generates when combined with buses and trains. So we ran a study that enabled us to prove actually the incremental value that you can have, which sounds very intuitive, like if you have new offering, then people would start buying bus tickets or train tickets on your platform, and it increases their lifetime value -- frequency lifetime value and then brings additional value. But why it happens? So these networks that we run, one, carpooling. As you can see in France, you can have like almost infinite amount of meeting points at which passengers and drivers can meet for carpooling. They are very complementary for -- to a very, very scarce network of bus stations or even train stations. And basically, you would not cannibalize your train or bus offering when you're selling that on your platform by carpool because they usually run something that supplements each other. And on top of that, as you would see in the later slides, can also build like intermodal trips. So without going into many details, basically what we've proven is that if you were -- if we haven't added bus offering on our platform in France, our gross margin would have been lower by 7%. If we -- compared to a scenario where we have it, and that's the case. So we run a bus network in France as well. We've done a similar study for Brazil, and the numbers are very, very similar. It's just the numbers from France are more recent. We have more time line to analyze that. But what we see in Brazil is very much similar. And again, it doesn't -- shouldn't come as a surprise, but I think it's good to prove it with numbers. On top of that, I think that there are aspects which are very relevant, which I haven't mentioned so far that much, just the usage on our platform is actually helping to reduce carbon emissions or increasing energy efficiency of the entire economy. Because what is happening is that, instead of traveling in 2 cars, people are switching into 1 car for a longer distance trip, or they are shifting from using their own car to using buses. And that's the same, taking cars off the road and increasing the overall efficiency. And actually, thanks to the models we have, we've proven that we can generate those savings. What we can do out of it is actually we can also generate business in the future. We're looking into carbon credit schemes where we could actually monetize that as well. What's important is that actually, when you look at other transportation networks, you don't think about them as something that generates human connections. And actually, what I mentioned earlier, BlaBlaCar is very unique. So the passenger and driver connecting the car is very different than a very transactional nature of you traveling by train or a car. And actually, we build a lot of those connections. And that also fits the growth and helps to have the non -- like full organic growth of the platform. And the last point, I already mentioned, is that if you look at the network we create, you can, in every country, you can identify numerous points where people can travel, which increases the mobility in the country, and it's very important. Summarizing, I think we are a marketplace which is commission-based, we're asset-free. And we have a great model that generates revenues, thanks to energy savings and potentially carbon savings in the future. Maybe tapping a bit into the numbers. I know that's what's very interesting for you. Those are not surprising figures, I guess, because they were disclosed earlier. I can dig deeper into that. So here, you can see revenue and EBITDA results of the company over the last couple of years. You'd see that there is a clear dip during COVID, because we maintained most of our teams and preserved most of the activity, investing in the rebound post-COVID. And as you can see, this demonstrates a very strong operating leverage. So once like we have activity rebounding on our platform, we can demonstrate very quickly a rebound of gross margin. And then it grows quite quickly to EBITDA. Carpool business itself is very, very profitable in terms of gross margins, like 85%. So as long as you would see the rebound of usage there, you would see this slowing into EBITDA. And as I mentioned, this does not reflect potential markets which were not monetized. So their activity were increasing. You don't see it here. You don't see it in the revenue. You don't see it in EBITDA. But once we start monetizing them, you can expect the same efficiency of flow of -- from activity to revenue to EBITDA. There are a couple of events that are worth mentioning. So we recently secured additional financing, which helps us to think about the next steps of expansion, which would be mostly focused on financing M&A targets. And I'll mention a few words about that. It adds on top of a very strong position the company already had. So over the years, we managed to preserve a quite strong war chest. In combination with this financing helps us to think about a strong M&A pipeline. So I'll maybe infuse 3 slides, present how we plan next couple of years with the company. So on the core part of the platform, as I said, it's a unique asset. It's something that we have no competition around. I think that this should not prevent us from innovating in this space. I, personally being at BlaBlaCar for 12 years, I feel that there is still a lot of things we can develop. Starting with pricing. Our platform has -- I've heard during earlier presentations, questions about pricing. Our platform has very basic pricing. And that's a huge lever for optimization. Just so far, we've been optimizing other parts of product. But now I believe we can invest into that. So on our platform, we are -- the only things we do with price, we cap the price and we recommend it to drivers, and that led to drivers set the price themselves. Not very intelligent, but that's how it works for a while. I think that we can implement much more -- much smarter solutions around pricing. Of course, we would roll out monetization in markets which were not monetized. And we can still optimize, take rate to meet a sweet spot between like passenger's intent to pay and revenue. This should generate a still decent growth of revenue. This has a high gross margin, as I mentioned. And here, I think that the execution risk is fairly low because that's what the bread-and-butter of BlaBlaCar was doing since 15 years. Next thing is something that we already started that's happening. That's reality, we sell bus tickets, we sell train tickets, as you've heard, in Spain. We sell bus tickets at scale in numerous markets. So the idea is to grow that further, to become a leading platform for selling bus tickets in every market we operate, and to, of course, become a single multiple -- multi-model marketplace for road transportation. Here, we believe that that's the good place where we can invest in M&As. And we identified several targets. Those are usually companies that are profitable. So they are only profitable companies. They're usually around [ 40 million, 50 million ] revenue. And we have a lineup of a couple of them and discussions with them are progressing. So stay tuned. That can generate stronger revenue growth. That has a slightly lower gross margin. Still fairly decent, above 50%. Here, the execution risk is slightly higher because we compete with players that are existing on the market. That's not a core expertise of BlaBlaCar historically. So that's something that we started to develop. I think that there is a lot to iterate. I have high confidence that we can deliver, but we should mention that there is some high risk than on the earlier type of products. Speaking about M&A targets, I already revealed a bit around that. They are profitable. They are bus or train OTAs. So very focused on this segment because it fits into the expansion strategy that I just laid out. And they still expected to grow their revenues. And they are profitable. So they should not tap into our cash resources. And last item, which is something that's, I would say, a U.S. innovation at BlaBlaCar, which we started to look into 2 years ago. It's how to unlock high-frequency transportation. So BlaBlaCar, when I refer to bus or carpool it's mostly low frequency usage. it's like 3, 4, 5, maybe 6 trips per year for passenger. And then for drivers, maybe more, but that's the supply side of the marketplace. Here, we're talking about tens of trips per year. And that's something that can increase a lot the revenue of the company. And we can actually leverage the same type of users on supply side whilst bringing users on demand side. And this product, we believe, can be very well-combined as a part of intermodal solution. So you can imagine that you, again, take a train from Stockholm to Goteborg and then your summerhouse is like 40 kilometers around. Then you can find actually -- still a private individual who is not willing to generate profit to take you from this train station to your house. It's not a typical use case for BlaBlaCar now, it's a use case that we want to develop. And it's something that we believe has a high chances of gaining traction. We started some experimentation on this topic last year. And this year, scaling this a bit more in France and then looking forward to scale it beyond. What's actually important here is that the average ticket size for this type of journey is also like 3, 4x bigger than for carpooling. So it's high frequency multiplied by higher basket size. I think it's a very interesting product for us. And I mean, it's a venture project financed in-house. So might fail, but I think that it's rather going to fly. So that demonstrates a bit -- this envision where basically you take a train and you find a car that's taking you and your family to your final destinations as part of the intermodal trip. Just sharing what's the team behind that, so my colleagues from the exec team and our CEO, was leading the company, as you can see. People with already quite some experience at BlaBlaCar combined with a new wave of executives who arrived over last year's build a very complementary team that I'm very proud of. I think that's it.

Great. Thank you very much, Piotr. I'll kick off with a couple of questions, but feel free to raise your hand if you have any. So looking back at the last, call it, 24 months, I think a big difference between BlaBla and many of our other portfolio companies that are presented here today is that you guys were coming out of a pretty rough time with the pandemic. You had -- went from negative [ 51 million ] in EBIT to positive [ 35 million ] last year. You grew revenues 2.5x over that time period. Any general reflections over that period from being very close to business, which you are?

Well, I think that we -- this demonstrates, honestly, a strong resilience of carpool model. So in several markets, basically, the carpool is basically not happening at all, like it went to 0. And the moment COVID restrictions were lifted. Actually, without any stimulation from our side, users came back to the platform, kind of recognizing the brand, having very positive associations. And actually it was also showing higher resilience of this model versus other transportation models because for them, the lead time to put buses on the road or start operating trains and set the right model, set the right price was much longer. So that was a strong reflection of that period. Second thing, I think great decision that was made with support of the Board was that we would actually continue investing in our all initiatives, including the ones that actually are giving fruits now connecting the buses around the world, preparing our technology to scale more. I think it was not an obvious bet and not every board would support a management that takes this decision. And I think that was a wise choice. And now we are gathering fruits of that. In [indiscernible], what I mentioned earlier is the strong operating leverage that BlaBlaCar has. So we probably can optimize our operations, optimize our costs further, but I think as long as we are actually starting to deliver volumes and activity, we don't need to scale our cost base and also. So I think now the cost base that we have, we can probably double the EBITDA without any further investments.

Great. I'll jump in on one other, which is, you touched upon it a bit in the presentation but what share of GMV or PATs is monetized today? And how do you see -- envision that evolving in the years to come. I think you mentioned some of the markets that might be on the horizon, but it would be good to get some more details on that.

So when you look at carpooling activity only, it's a bit more than half of it is monetized. So still almost half of it to be monetized, which would, as I mentioned, flow directly into EBITDA, thanks to a great gross margin of the business. If you look at the entire passenger side of the business, it's roughly 70% of it is monetized, 30% is not monetized because bus business or train business is monetized from day 1, like we are generating revenue for every ticket sold. So the time line -- I think that the plan is that over this year and next year, we would monetize Brazil, which is at that point, our second biggest market in terms of activity. And then I think '26, we should think of monetizing India and the remainder of the markets, then maybe in between, we would squeeze in Mexico, which I believe is not as strategic as those 2 ones. And I think the key for us is to continue iterating around monetization product, which I think can be improved to minimize the impact of introducing like payroll in the product and to maintain the growth that's happening because all those markets are growing, like India at that point grows 100% year-on-year with like 1 million packs per month, for instance, and there's 0 investments there. So they benefit, of course, from the global platform, all the processes that we've built support that we provide to the users there essentially, but there is no marketing invested into that.

Very exciting. One question over here.

Okay. [indiscernible] Two questions. One is, maybe I'm wrong, but I'm not entirely sure BlaBlaCar is integrated in Google Maps or other parts of the world where it is integrated in Google Maps?

I think that's tricky. So there are different products in Google, like we are just finalizing integration of our platform into Google Transport with the long distance. We've been actually being integrated now, we -- I think you won't find this results. It's a bit tricky because at Google and the maps, they're interesting on having multiple offerings. And as we are the only long-distance carpooling platform, there are some issues with that. But when we were there integrated there, it's not providing for such a big traffic to BlaBlaCar. So when you search on the map and you would have like train, bus. So our buses can be found, for instance, in Google maps in markets where you have them and Google transport provides for us actually presenting our bus operators, thanks to our interface connected to Google. But on carpool, it's more tricky.

Got it. The second question is, I mean, I appreciate this like nonprofit concept on carpooling, et cetera but given that you expanded the buses and trains, would it make sense to include also kind of medium to long distance car transfers? I mean...

Yes. I mean then you enter into a fairly tricky regulatory space because in most of the markets and especially in emerging markets, this space occupied by a lot of gray zone, clandestine transportation and once you start aggregating that, you expose yourself because your easy target is the main target of all the regulatory requests and as a side effect actually as a collateral damage, you might actually be challenged on carpool front, which you would like to avoid because of the economics that they displayed. So we looked into that. I think that in certain areas, like for instance, the door-to-door product that I displayed. I cannot exclude that in this product, we would be working with a fully certified professional drivers like in France, for instance, where we are piloting this project. There is a supply and that we work with, and that's legal, and that would not lead to us being challenged. So it's not that much ideological. It's more pragmatic and linked with regulatory aspect. If you do that in Brazil, I can assure you that the day after you would have like a lot of mini vans and then all the legit pass operators who say well, I stop being distributed on your platform because you're promoting a clandestine transportation. And on top of that, you have carpool and we don't like it and -- yes.

We have a question in the back but I'll jump in with one in between. I know when the investment in BlaBla in the first time, was it 8 years ago or something. I think the take rate in France was sub around 10%, which is now above -- around 30%. So could you walk us through the evolution of the take rate when you enter a market and what that looks like currently?

I think it's a bit of a lesson learned. I think in France, indeed, we are starting with like a low like 12%, 15% of take rates and then you apply a VAT. So consumer facing, it's a bit more. Now we reached more like 22%, 23%, 24%. And basically, when we were launching new markets, we realized that the sensitivity to the amount of the fee is not so high. The biggest problem is to convince people to start paying in general rather than to expose them either to 15% or 20% or 25% of the fee. So I mean, there is a bit of science in that but we have a take rate, which is around 20% plus which consumer facing is probably closer to 25% in all the markets.

At the [indiscernible].

At the [indiscernible], yes. I don't -- what we realize is that increasing the fee as a part of the monetization rollout is not the wisest thing. We'd rather focus on rolling it out through exposing more people in a more smooth manner rather than through offering them a lower take rate on general. I think it's not very wise. And this, combined with our not very wise pricing, I think that it doesn't provide for a most optimal experience from a revenue extraction standpoint.

Just a quick question related to the M&A strategy on buses and trains specifically. So just curious what's like the main advantage you see in your own words that, that gives you versus building organically, biobuild, that kind of question. Is it just -- is it like long sales cycles with very bureaucratic operators? Or is it like aggregators have a strong position in the value chain and have exclusive agreements with operators? Or what's the main like unlocking advantage that keeps you versus doing yourself?

Good question. I think that stepping back a bit, although it started in a different reality. Most of the bus and train OTAs, they started between 15 and 10 years ago, and their path towards that numbers, it took them more or less that amount of time. Then you can blame the fact that they started in a different reality where there was much more off-line transactions because what's the main objective of entering into bus and train OTA is a different animal but in bus OTA. You mostly target markets where you have still most of the transactions happening offline. And you basically accompany or accelerate the transition from off-line to online. Yet most of the markets we look at are still at fairly low levels. So even the players who are generating the 40 million, 50 million revenue are operating in markets where you have like a 10% to 25% of online sales. So there is still significant amount of market that you can grab as a new entrant. Then I think that for us, the valuation is simple even if we combine carpool audience in those markets and expertise we are gradually building and the fact that there is more online sales but there is also more competitors. I think that it's much faster for us to gain traction and demonstrated a scalable and multimodel platform globally by acquiring platforms. That being said, up until now, we are still growing organically in Brazil. I think that next year, we should be getting to 5 million packs starting in 2020 already. So it's not bad. But I think that you can accelerate this path much more. And on top of that, I think you can start looking into geographies where you are not so strong and then combine the bus OTA with expanding with carpool offering. So it opens more opportunities as well.

We have a question over here from [ Jake ].

You mentioned dynamic pricing as a topic. Could you just say more about what the idea is there, like how that -- you might still be working through the hands but how that could work?

It's already being implemented in some markets. So basically, as I mentioned, the basic model of BlaBlaCar is that as the driver you published right. We propose you recommended price. You have some branch within which you can change it. This price is always the same. So whether it's Wednesday morning, 05:00 a.m. or Friday afternoon after -- before a long weekend is the same price that we suggest to the driver. Then the driver, some of the drivers were more frequent ones, they have developed their own intelligence and pricing. And then they can -- they know when basically you can increase the price, they would rarely decrease the price. That's a problem. So when we look at the average like prices that are declared by drivers. You would see that like they only go up or they stay at the average -- recommended price so they increased. And the issue we see that is, I mean, no of the transportation players in the reality of competition play that game. They usually have just the price to demand and supply available on the market. So the way how it works is basically -- it doesn't sound very sophisticated but basically, we are mapping the pricing of the competitive means of transportation using this either as a point of reference for defining prices on legs which are not exposed to competition or actually as a point of reference to people who are traveling on the same routes where travel bus or train is traveling. And then the driver would adopt that and then passenger would be exposed to this. We did different tests. I think the challenge on our side is that we cannot take full control over price because we still want to give drivers feeling that they control the price. But more importantly, I think that the moment you take full control over price, you're also exposing yourself to a bit of regulatory challenges.

Thanks. We have one final question, I think, from JJ again.

Just two very quick questions. First, just roughly ballpark, what percent of top line today is carbon credit offsets, just roughly? The carbon credits, what percent of revenue is that roughly?

Honestly, I'm not exposed to this topic that much but I think that we communicated on that publicly. If I recall well, it was around 20%.

Yes. Okay. Makes sense. I'm just curious -- since that's, I mean, roughly entirely margin, just curious how you think about kind of the sustainability of that revenue stream and kind of risks and opportunities of that going ahead just...

Just I think risks are obvious. These are schemes that are not a product of consumer demand, it's political solutions that are addressing a lot of different issues depending on the market. So they're evolving, you need to be in the dialogue with administration, politicians. So it's a different game than the game of building a product for consumers. But I think we are successfully playing this game since 15 years. So I'm confident that we can continue doing that. It doesn't mean that there won't be any setbacks along the road and changes and so on, I think we should just do our job and make sure that this is something that stays with us. Although I hope that over time, there would be other revenue streams that would make this much more marginal in below like our P&L. On the other hand, one the opportunity side, those schemes in Europe are regulated at the European level and the implementation in different countries is at different stages. But we are already progressing with leveraging similar scheme, and we have in France and Spain. And there are other markets in which we could follow. On the other side, as I mentioned, we are also exploring carbon credits. So outside of Europe, there is no framework on energy efficiency certificates but they've well implemented carbon credit savings schemes. And we are looking into that. I think that towards year-end, we should have some answers from some of the geos -- some of the biggest geos we operate in.

Super one. Final -- whether did you have a question there? No. Okay. final question for me on trends that has -- we've talked about trends for a while. Where are we in rolling that out? And how important will it become in years to come?

Yes. As I said, I'm quite excited. We sold our first train ticket in Spain last week. So it's about to grow. I think at that point, it's mostly -- most of the focus is to prove that in Spain. Spain is the place to be in terms of ticket -- train aggregation because the market got liberalized. There's more players, ideal scenario for an LTA and we know that our audience has a high affinity with low-cost, fast trains. So we believe that it's a great market to be, and we'll invest there further. And then we would think of scaling that. I think for a long time, France was our primary target, but seeing an opportunity in Spain, we kind of change the gear and trading direction. So France would be, for sure, one of the next markets. Once we build a solution for consumers, I think the train product can be very easily scaled across Europe and engine for connecting as well. So I'm confident we can scale that to more markets.

Perfect. With that, thank you very much, Piotr.

Thank you.

To the next company, which is Alva Labs. We have Christoffer Norman, who is the Chief Operating Officer. Also, I think the first investor in Alva Labs. We know Christoffer from Avito. So super excited to have him join here as well. Thanks.

Thanks. Yes, great to be here. My name is Christoffer Norman. As Dennis said, I'm COO of a company called Alva Labs. Could I ask -- start with asking you a question, how many in here have ever been a hiring manager and actually hired someone? Almost -- yes, some people? And how many of you have actually failed -- whenever failed with a hiring process and hired not the right candidate or it has turned out to be an unsuccessful hire, hands up. You are not alone, I can tell you because this is the problem that we are attacking. Hiring is very, very hard. And what we do is that we provide a candidate assessment platform to large enterprises, mostly here in the Nordics, and we provide this as a software service -- a SaaS solution. Our company was founded 7 years ago. And after a desert walk in the first couple of years, we found product market fit. And now we have been like working towards our mission for 7 years, basically, but it really took off like 4 years ago. And our mission is to build a fair and efficient job market for both candidates and companies. And the way we want to get there is to provide the simplest and smoothest hiring process possible, where every candidate can rely on us and our services to discover their next dream job. And where every employer can rely on us to discover the perfect candidate to simply put the right candidate for the right job. I will go into more detail exactly on how we do this a bit later. But first, I would like to talk to a bit more -- I would like to talk a bit more about the problem space that we're attacking. And when we meet companies, potential clients, they face 3 distinct pains when it comes to hiring. First, it's around hiring quality, which basically is around how do I understand what great looks like, what makes up a great candidate? Is it someone that's blond and blue eyed or are there like other characteristics of a candidate that makes someone perfect? And once I've understood what makes perfect, how do I assess that in a fair and transparent way. The second pain that companies are facing is process efficiency. So how can I -- even though I know how it should be done, how can I design a process that is actually used throughout the organization by every hiring manager out there and that we can keep on being objective and fair throughout the process. The third pain that companies are facing is candidate experience and employer brand, because how you assess candidates and how you run your recruitment process that tells the candidate something about who you are as an employer. And you want to provide as good of a candidate experience as possible so that you don't risk losing top candidates. And these pains are very real. And together, they make hiring hard. As many of you had experienced like a -- it's very easy to fail when it comes to hiring. And the bad news is that it just became much harder to succeed in hiring because today's environment with an ever-increasing rate of change, makes it much more of a moving target. These are some stats from the World Economic Forum, where they have pulled a lot of employers around the world and found out that 25% of the jobs that we have today are set to be disrupted in the next 5 years. So these that's -- jobs that we have today that will disappear and jobs that will appear that we don't know about today. So that's 25% of the total jobs. And here, AI will play a key role. But maybe even more interesting is that up to 50% of what is required today in certain roles is predicted to change. So 50% of the skills, like the skills of, let's say, an equities analyst are expected to change within only 3 to 4, 5 years. So this means that the task of recruiters and business leader just became so much harder. It's a dramatic change to what it used to be. Yes, roles and skills have always evolved and changed but now it's happening in a -- at a much faster pace. And this calls for an updated view on hiring. So I guess most of you are familiar with the iceberg metaphor. And here, I want to apply it to recruitment. The traditional way of recruitment has focused on the tip of the iceberg, what's visible to the eye. We call that readiness. And readiness is made up of how many years of experience do you have? What's your hard skills? What university did you go to? And unfortunately, most companies hire in this way today. It's based -- it's backward looking. It's based on what worked yesterday. And yes, it puts an excess emphasis on past experience, hard skills, present knowledge and diploma. But -- according to research, and this is undisputable, what makes a person successful is actually what you see here below the surface, and it's what we call potential and potential are -- is made up of trades such as if you're as a personal driven, if you're change-oriented humble, responsible or a great communicator, and it's basically potentially is what allows an individual to learn new skills, adapt and grow as the business evolved. And what has changed now is that with the current shift in the workforce in order to be successful in hiring, you need to look at both readiness and potential. And this is basically what we are helping companies to do with Alva. So with Alva, we deliver on 3 different pillars. These are the promises that we have to our clients. So we ensure quality of hire by providing predictive assessment methods, personality tests, logic tests support for structured interviews. We also have different skill-based tests in our portfolio. We -- the second promise is around operational excellence with our platform. It allows you to automate many parts of your recruitment journey so that you can remove repetitive and manual task and focus on what really matters. And another thing we are focusing on is to be candidate first. We make the recruitment process as fun and fast and enjoyable as it can be, and that's 1 of our clear competitive advantages versus competition. So now I talked a lot about companies, but what about the other side? What about the candidates. So the pains that candidates face today is that they face requirement list that look like long, long wish lists that is -- are impossible to live up to. And I usually often refer to this tweet here, which is from a guy who created something called FastAPI, and he applied for a job where they required 4 years of experience. But he built a thing 1.5 years ago. And this is just 1 example on how it usually looks. And like the companies of the setup totally unachievable criteria. Another pain is that unfortunately, candidates today often get -- are not given equal opportunity. If you are -- if you have the wrong name or the wrong gender, you are at a much -- you have a lot much lower chance of landing your dream job. So that's also something we are looking to tackle with our solution. So what do we actually do? So we provide an end-to-end assessment platform, which brings structure and objectivity to your hiring process. And it's basically -- the hiring process is made up of many steps. The first, how do you define what great looks like? How do you put together this requirement profile that actually is relevant to succeeding in your role. Then once you've done that, you need to attract candidates to apply to that job. And there, we have a marketplace service that I will talk a bit about later. And once you have the candidates in your hiring pipe, we provide this suite of assessment solutions, both the methods required and the process support required to run a fair and objective assessment process. And then you can use our platform to combine all the input into weighted role fit score and take a well-informed hiring decision. This is just a snapshot on how it could look. Basically, what you do as a recruiter is that you create a job in your applicant tracking system often. Here is a list of different ATS, Team Tyler is a very well-known player here in the Nordics, Greenhouse is one of levering greenhouses are 2 of the bigger ones internationally. We integrate very closely with those. And once you start, our platform then automatically invites candidates to take the tests and according to the process that you have designed. And then in the end, when your candidates have taken all the different tests, they are weighted and ranked in our software. This is just a couple of snapshots on how it looks, what the candidate experience looks like. This is one of our tests. We have, as I said -- mentioned, we have several different. I believe this is the answer to that question. Then I think that like this, what I just showed you, we will build a very, very nice software business based on this. Like we -- if I look at the Forbes 2000 list, there are -- I think there are 24 companies or something like that in Swedish companies on that list. Half of them are already our clients, are in the process of becoming our clients, and we have only focused on the Nordics and Sweden so far. And there is no reason why we can't close half of the companies in the U.K., Netherlands, France, Italy, you name it. So I think we'll be able to create a very nice SaaS business but what I think could make our company iconic and a breakout company in VNV's portfolio is if we succeed with this master plan, which is basically to, in the end, become a SaaS-enabled talent marketplace because now we are at step 1 here basically. But once you open a position in Alva and once you hire -- when you go out and look for someone like I recently hired a lead designer. We got 150 applicants, we were -- we're going to hire 1%. So 149 people will not get an offer. But a lot of them were extremely good candidates. And they are now vetted. They're tested. They've already taken the test. They own their data, which is a unique advantage that we have compared to our competitors. So they can actually use the same tests that we've already taken in other processes. And once another Head of Design role appears, then we will serve that position to all those 149 candidates who didn't get our job and create this talent marketplace. And we've already -- like we have had this product in beta for a while, and we've made a bunch of hires, unmonetized. But if we can make it work 50x, I think we can make it work 500 times. And if we can make it work 500 times, we can make it work 50,000 times. And this is what I think could turn this into a very, very exciting company and large company. And every VNV company needs a flywheel, and this is the Alva flywheel. We're basically -- and we have this flywheel working for us already because this Trojan Horse that I alluded to, where we get candidates, get free supply basically. And the companies we -- the clients we work with help us to pull in those candidates to our platform. So that's -- with every new job opening, we get more candidates. The more candidates we get, the more liquidity we get on our marketplace, and the more attractive our solution becomes for companies out there. So this -- yes, and I have really high hopes about this, and the early signs are promising. I think I will stop there. I will not talk to you so much about the numbers, but you go ahead and ask him, and maybe I will answer.

Thanks. Yes, I'm only going to ask questions about numbers now. So hope something in store for me.

Yes, very good.

No, but thanks, Christoffer very much. I'll start off on the same note, I've started with most of the other companies here which is looking back over the past 2 years, I know you guys were in a hypergrowth mode. But what's also been very interesting is you've done a big shift in your ideal customer profile over this time period. It would be great to get to know that process a bit better and then your reflections and learnings from that period?

Yes. So I think 2 years ago or a bit more than 2 years ago when money was still free, like all opportunities out there look really attractive, and we fell for the temptation to do a lot of things at once. We were becoming a product-led company. We're doubling down on enterprise sales. We're expanding into the U.K. We're building our marketplace. We did everything at once. And that was not a successful strategy, really. And what happened when we realized that this -- the money that we raised in December '21 might be the last money that come into the company, we started to be much more focused and narrow in our -- what opportunities we went after. And I think that transition period was pretty -- was painful, like it means a lot of broken promises like someone was hired to build a team of 12 people, but then we got 3. Some of it was laid off and like we were close down the U.K. office, for example, stuff like that. It was really like painful transition. But now once we're through and once we're on the other side, I think the benefits are great and our -- like our engagement score internally is at like all-time high, people really want to work on like a focused problem and not pull in many directions at once. So that's like -- yes, it was painful to do transition. Once you're through on the other side, it's actually -- it was a blessing in disguise. That's one reflection I've had.

And as I mentioned, so you did a pretty big shift in your ICP, your ideal customer profile. Could you walk us through what you went from and where you are now, like who is your target today?

Yes. So back in 2001, we really -- like our SaaS subscriptions to companies like [indiscernible] just flew out the door, like they hired double the team every year. Yes, you were there and the kind of -- they didn't have this bureaucratic procurement processes, so we can -- we could close the deal in 2 weeks. So those were happy days. But then like that -- like they went from hiring to firing like crazy overnight, basically. And like the first thing you pull out is a recruitment software like you're telling derivative on the hiring need of the company. So that was a humbling experience. What we did was to move to -- from fast-growing -- young fast-growing companies to really established enterprise players as our ICP. So that's what we have been focusing on for the last 2 years basically. So really stable, large businesses with 1,000 employees or more. We have a constant hiring need like regardless of economic climate. And they also -- we see it in our data like the performance of that type of customer is so much better than any other customer. So that's what we're doubling down. And I hope, ideally they should believe in like data-driven recruitment and also have like a centralized talent acquisition team in-house. So that's -- though if they take those boxes we -- they are ICP.

I'll continue with some questions, but actually we have one from Jake in the audience there.

Could you just talk about the revenue model? Like how do you charge? Is it based on the size of the employee base or the number of hires or...

It's a number of hires. So if you -- and that's like how many employees you sign, if you have 1 role, I don't know, back-end engineer but you sign 30 candidates, we charge you for 30 hires. And so we have a discussion with the clients in the beginning of the year or when their contract period starts, and we talk to them like how many hires are you looking to do in the coming year. And then we charge them, we have a price list basically. So okay, if it's 100 higher, the price is X, if it's 1,000 hires, the price is y. And then it's a SaaS model, basically, all you can eat in terms of candidates and users, et cetera, and then we usually sign them on a 3-year contract.

And they -- so if they say we're going to hire 30 this year, but they actually hire 40, you do an annual true-up or something?

Yes, then they bump up their subscription.

So it's based on the number of hires, but it's an annual contract, so they pay you what like quarterly, just to use.

No, they pay us -- some clients pay us quarterly, but most people pay us annually upfront. And then if they if they estimate, I don't know, 800 hires, but then it turns out to be 900. Well, maybe then that splits over to next year's negotiations.

We have a question from JJ.

Thanks for the presentation. Just curious, you mentioned 1 of the kind of KPIs you look for in your ICP is a centralized hiring function. What's just -- what's been your experience trying to push product to external hiring agencies and so on? What's that experience been like? And what's that to you?

So a couple of our largest clients are actually recruiting firms. So even though they're not our ideal customer profile, we -- if they want to buy our services, we will let them. And -- but we don't design our products to suit their needs or that's not our first priority. It might be our third priority, and we definitely don't want to do anything to that discourages them from using our service but they do use us as well. And they too like the candidate experience, the simplicity of the tool, yes.

A quick follow-up to that. Are the replacing something -- presumably, they're replacing something existing when they're in housing or software? Or are you complementing the existing? Or are you replacing the existing?

No. So we did not invent this like testing, and this has been around for 70 years, which is -- I think, which is very good because it also has a lot of evidence like from research and our product is built on that evidence. So -- but what we did do some innovations in how we have designed the product and like how we thought about like this thing with the candidate, owning the test results, for example, and having something that's easy to interpret, like that type of things we have invented. And to answer your question, like most companies have had an incumbent solution already, and we come and replace them and other tools as well because we are oftentimes broader than what they have today. Like our head-to-head competitors don't have coding tests, for example.

Keith?

Christoffer, how much feedback -- what kind of feedback loop do you have on the candidates? And what of that do you provide to the employers? Because if you're doing the testing and they're getting place, you obviously can then go back and leverage that for renewals and whatnot. Is that something that you're selling now? Or is that part of the future?

It's been part of the future for 7 years, so I hope that future comes soon. But it's basically the holy grail of hiring because if you can close that feedback look like you have something truly unique. And we're looking at different ways to collect that data. We just did a major breakthrough in figuring out who got hired at all because that data we haven't been able to collect before, but we just did a big breakthrough there. Then the next step is to understand how do they perform on the job. And of course, you can build a product that like you get -- ask hiring managers to give -- go in and give feedback, but the problem is that, that will get very low rates of adoption. So we're looking for more robust and automated ways to collect that feedback. And there are some promising signs. And one day, we will solve it, but we haven't done it yet.

One thing that excites us obviously, a lot is the potential of a marketplace that you talked about? I'm not sure if that was clear, but yes, you were the Chief Operating Officer of Avito. Given your background and experience from there, is there any pattern recognition from the Avito days that you see that you apply to Alva and the [indiscernible] side of things?

They're both marketplaces, but that's like where the similarities end. I would say.

Not the answer I was hoping for.

No, no, I know. I know. But I think what I saw at Avito was that the jobs vertical is pretty unique. Like if you look at -- if you go out and look for a new place to live, like there's usually one place you go to or if you go out look for a car, there's 1 or 2 places in every country all around the world. But if you look for a job, like Russia was unique because they were actually only like 2 or 3 players where you went. But in all -- most other countries, like the market is so fragmented, and there is no clear winner in most countries. There are exceptions. But that's something I always found interesting and I think what we're doing here is that we're building something linked in on steroids because we have proprietary and unique data that no one else has to match candidates and jobs with a -- on a level of granularity that is much better than anything else out there. So that makes me really bullish. So -- yes, I'm sorry to this point but there are more differences than similarities between Avito and this. But the other difference is that here, we get the supply for free. The candidates just keep pouring in through the door. But at Avito, you always had this, you had to balance supply and demand very, very carefully in order to build liquidity. But here, we avoided the cold start problem of billing marketplace, which is very cool.

And Could you walk us through what a marketplace transaction would look like? Like what's the rough economics behind it? That's the only numbers question I'll ask you, I promise.

No. So like the budget for -- like for sourcing candidate and finding candidate is magnitudes higher than the budget for assessing candidates. So if you go out hiring a recruitment firm, like you would pay for on hire, which is pretty crazy for the value they provide is my personal opinion. But then you could -- and then you could kind of take steps back there, like so if that's the end of the funnel and like the price at the end of the rainbow is NOK 400,000 then if we could provide like 10 shortlisted candidates, which is a step before at a -- like a -- I don't know, a percent of that price, then you could kind of count backwards and realize that, that would be a pretty good deal for the recruiters. And for us, it would also be -- could be totally transformative to our business model, and we could basically give away the SaaS too and only monetize on providing highly vetted, highly relevant candidates. So -- and the way we work is that you basically you need this double opt-in. You need firstly, we need to display the job to the candidate and get it candidates attention, and then they would have to say, yes, this -- we would tell them, "Hey, Dennis, here's a job with -- given your test results and everything you've done with Alva before, we think this is something that could suit you very well. Are you interested?" If you click yes, you will be sent into the workflow of the recruiter anonymized, and say, we have this candidate, are you willing -- do you want to pay a small fee to Alva in order to get in contact and if you click yes as a recruiter, then you pay a small fee to us and then kind of free to proceed with the candidate.

Two questions from the audience. We have one, [ Alena ]?

One question. So could you talk a bit about how scalable the product is across different markets and also across different professions because you mentioned that you have some coding-related test and et cetera?

Yes. So on the professional side, like 1 thing -- 1 strategic choice we made very early on was to make like the psychometric test, the personality test, logic test, they are the same regardless of what type of job you're looking for. And then we provide you with different -- you can apply kind of different lenses on top of that. And if you look at -- if you need an engineer, then what type of capabilities and traits are relevant for when hiring an engineer, if you want a salesperson, then what type of profile should you look for? So you own the same test result you apply different type of lenses, so to speak. So that's -- those tests are applicable across all types of roles. Then we have role-specific test as well such as the coding tests. And they are like probably relevant if you're looking for a sales job like it doesn't matter if you can code. Then in -- depending on geographies, we have a number of clients. We have focused, some in the Nordics so far and some in the U.K. But what we see is that our clients bring our -- bring the software abroad but it's -- we also need to kind of have active sales efforts in new geographies in order for the penetration to go up basically in order to sell. So yes, it is scalable but it requires a lot of hard work to sell it.

I think the final question from JJ in the back.

Final question. So you mentioned that 25% of the workforce is going to be displaced in some way, shape or form over the next 5 years, give or take.

No, that's I know I said that 25% of the jobs will be disrupted, and it's a bit vague, but it's consists -- both of jobs that will disappear in the new jobs that will...

It's not net. It's positive and negative, yes. Yes. But 25 -- okay. But that number, 25%. I mean, the way you address that is -- seems very clear, but you also mentioned that there's like a 50% need for reskilling in some way, shape or form. So my question just on a very high level is how you address the reskilling part of the problem today or if that's a future endeavor or how you think about that?

Yes. We're not actively lack into that part yet, like the re-skilling part. But we are urging companies to look for candidates with traits that will enable them to rescale and that are open to change as an example. And so -- and if you ask a candidate, carry those trades and characteristics, you're more likely to succeed in a future where roads get -- are changed and skills become obsolete in a much shorter time frame. Yes.

Perfect. I think we'll end on that note. Thank you very much, Christoffer.

Thank you.