Wells Fargo & Company (WFC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Good morning. We're going to start here with the next session. I'm Jon Ashe from Wellington Management. I'll do open up with a quick trivia. Can you name an executive who, in 2020, joined a financial services company to lead a unit of 50,000 people in the middle of a raging pandemic? So the answer is our next speaker. At $210 billion in assets, Wells Fargo is the third largest bank in the U.S. by market cap with almost $2 trillion in assets and with offices in 80% of the U.S. states. The stock currently trades at 1.4x tangible book, 13.7x '22 earnings with a 1.5% dividend yield. Of the 15 largest banks in the U.S. by market cap, Wells Fargo is the second best performer in terms of stock price appreciation over the past year at plus 135%. That was before yesterday, so it's 132%, trailing only Silicon Valley. Representing Wells Fargo today is Mike Weinbach, Senior EVP and CEO of Consumer Lending and a member of the operating committee. Mike leads 50,000 team members who work within home lending, auto, credit cards and merchant services, education, finance and personal loans. He joined Wells Fargo 16 years -- following 16 years at JPMorgan, where he was most recently the CEO of Chase Home Lending. Thanks for being here today.

Yes. Thanks for having me.

I guess if you want to start with any opening remarks.

No. I'm happy to talk about whatever people are interested in hearing about.

All right. Well, the obvious first question -- and we'll open this up, make this pretty robust, hopefully, for Q&A with the audience. The first question was obviously, you've been at -- not at Wellington but you've been at Wells Fargo.

You've been at Wellington.

I know. I'm employed. But you've been at Wells Fargo now for about 18 months. Just what -- why did you join Wells Fargo? What about this opportunity? You obviously left a company with a great reputation.

Yes. Well, Wells Fargo is -- you went through a bunch of that to prove that stuff, but a great company, a great franchise, really all of the businesses that are necessary to compete and serve customers from the smallest consumers to the most affluent people in the world, smallest businesses to the largest corporates across the globe and a brand, a franchise, a balance sheet, distribution, breadth. So there's a lot that's exciting about Wells Fargo. And obviously, the company has faced some challenges in recent years. And for me, it seems some of those challenges, I always thought that looks like a great opportunity, and I think I can help. And the opportunity came, and here I am.

What -- I guess you've been there probably enough to have your -- to have some identification of the biggest challenges and opportunities. Can you highlight a few of them?

Yes. And I think we've been really consistent about this over the last couple of years. The biggest opportunity is to strengthen the risk and control foundation of the company and put some of the issues that have been plaguing us over the last 5 or so years behind us. And that's like kind of the #1, 2 and 3 priority for the company, and we're laser focused on that. But that also gives us an opportunity. As we strengthen the foundation, there was a lot of opportunity for growth across our different businesses. And I'd say if I had to characterize what -- the opportunity in one way, it would be to better serve our customers. So again, having that full breadth of capabilities to meet our customers' needs, and I'm sure we'll end up talking about it or happy to answer questions about different business areas, there's still significant opportunity to do more and do better for our customers and have some growth as a result.

Could you give just one simple example?

Well, credit card is an area that we've been talking about. We are the second largest debit issuer by spend volume and the ninth largest credit card issuer. And that's not because Wells Fargo customers don't like to spend on credit cards, it's because they're frequently spending on other people's credit cards. So that's a big opportunity for us. Now part of the reason is we historically ran the business as a credit business as opposed to a payment and spending business, and we don't have the products that broadly meet the full breadth of our customers' needs. So we're in the process of rolling out a new product set. We rolled out the first couple over the last 2 quarters, and that's an example of an opportunity where we could better meet our customers' needs and see some nice growth as a result of that.

Charlie recently highlighted all the new leaders that he has on the team. I guess can you just talk about what type of perspective these fresh faces are bringing to the company?

Yes. So across our operating committee, most of the leaders are new to role. The vast majority are new to role, and it's a combination of people who've been with Wells Fargo a long time who've moved into new roles and a lot of people from the outside that have experience dealing with some of the regulatory and risk and control issues and bring different perspectives about all the businesses we're in. So it's a very healthy operating committee, like there's a lot of debate, a lot of new ideas. Hopefully, bringing all that together, it helps us to get the right ideas and the best ideas. And then within my businesses, the -- I have 4 main business lines within consumer lending, and all of the leaders are new within the last 2 years and have joined us from the outside and bring great perspectives that combined with the strengths we already have within Wells Fargo, I think, positions us well to better meet our customers' needs.

I mean it seems often that myself and others in the room probably want to see improvement at various companies more quickly. I guess you're trying to do a lot of this change in the middle of the pandemic. Do you think that now that we're hopefully getting to the other side of that, we might see acceleration in some of the efforts?

Yes. I'd say there's a lot of work since Charlie's leadership began 2 years ago, which is foundational. And the pandemic definitely took a lot of our attention, but we'd actually be doing the same foundational work regardless, and it's continuing. So I don't know if that like fully answers your question, but there are other aspects where the pandemic has probably been an accelerant to some efforts. The shift to digital has accelerated. I'm sure that's something that everybody is familiar with, but we're certainly seeing across the products I lead, a higher degree of digital originations than we were before the pandemic, and I think that's something that we may see continue.

So a lot of the businesses that fall under you, fintechs have been pretty active in these segments. How do you view fintechs? As partners or foes?

Yes. We definitely see across the lending businesses in particular, more and more frequently, our competition is outside of the banking industry, fintech, sometimes large tech. And like in the mortgage business, at this point, the majority of originations and servicing is happening outside of the banking industry, so it certainly had an impact. That being said, I think a lot of fintechs start with the idea of I had a bad banking experience. I want to recreate it, and we're going to like take over the industry and then they realize it's hard. It's hard to get customers, it's hard to build distribution, and it might be better to partner with people that have customers and have distribution. So it also presents opportunities. And as an example, Blend Labs is a fintech partner that helps enable our digital originations in mortgage, and we rolled out for personal lending this year and has really helped us accelerate the move to digital.

I guess we can open up to questions and then I can sprinkle some in as we go along.

Talking about the challenge of compliance -- sorry. Strength and risk and control you said is the first opportunity. I mean the fake account scandal happened in 2016, the asset cap has been in place since 2018 and the regulators have been breathing down Wells' neck for years. Something that came in relatively recently. Why is it taking this long?

Yes. I think it's hard work, and the expectations for a systemically important financial institution are high, and they should be high. And I'd say Wells versus the other SIFI has probably had a little bit of a later start on the move to meet those higher standards, and we have a team that knows what good looks like. We're doing the work. It is going to take as long as it takes, and it's going to be our top priority until we get there. And it's not just because regulators ask us to, but it's also because it's the right way to run the company. We want to make sure things work right for our customers, and we have high standards, as do our regulators, and we're going to keep doing the work until we get there.

Chris Kotowski from Oppenheimer. There may be no good way to answer the question. But having spent some time in management, I find the thing -- 2 things that freak people out the most are: one, giving them a new boss; and two, changing the compensation scorecard. And like at Wells Fargo, my sense is everybody's had a new boss or we've rotated the management team 1.5 to 2x in the last 5 years. And as you mentioned, a lot of people are in -- just in their first year or 2, and people at that level tend to bring in their own teams. And it's all very disruptive, and it takes a while for people to settle down, get to know what their boss' expectations are and so on and so forth. And so just kind of what is your sense internally on where you are in that process?

Yes, and I appreciate you saying there might be no good way to answer it. That takes some of the pressure off. But the -- I think there's a healthy appreciation for the good that is Wells Fargo and that we've had through the years and a healthy appreciation for some of the need for change. And this is one of the things Charlie told me as I was thinking about coming over, and it's been true that -- and maybe more so than any company I've ever seen. People that have been at Wells Fargo really want to see the company succeed and really -- as it's lost a little bit of its luster over the last couple of years, really want to see it come back. So it has genuinely been a what do we need to do to make this company all that it can be. And I've seen this in the past in other companies. Sometimes it starts and it's people are coming from one place or another and everybody is hyperconscious of that. And then at some point, as you start having success, everybody proudly says, "I'm part of Wells Fargo." And it doesn't matter if they joined yesterday or a year ago or have been there for 35 years, and that's -- I think that's where we're on our way to.

This is Luke Wooten from Manulife. I think the person who normally asks that question isn't allowed to ask questions at this presentation. So I don't think of...

Wait. Did he set you up though? Because if so, you're not allowed to ask either.

It's not a set-up. I actually wanted to question, you guys recently announced a partnership with nCino on the commercial loan origination systems. We've heard from other banks implementing that it's a rather large undertaking, and I imagine given the scale that for you guys probably magnified. Can you talk about why you guys decided to partner instead of build that out yourselves and then also just kind of the scale of the implementation of a platform like that?

I can talk about it, but it wouldn't be satisfying because it's not the area of the company that I'm directly involved in. So John Campbell in the back runs Investor Relations for us and he'll help follow up and get you a good answer for that.

And can you talk a little bit about your identity as a mortgage lender? And kind of you've evolved a bit in where you are today and what you want Wells Fargo to be as a mortgage company. And then maybe a little bit about not just originations, but the balance between servicing and originations.

Yes. Sure. I'll start answering. If I miss something, just trigger me and I'll talk more about it. Yes, I think like mortgage is very core to who Wells Fargo is. We've been a leader in the business for a long time. We have a complete mortgage business, really strong sales force, maybe the strongest and most complete across the industry. I think there may be at times in the past where the goal was size, and I'd say the goal today is to make sure we're delivering for our customers. So when our customers are buying a home, it's often like the biggest purchase they've ever made in their life, they wanted it to go great. And really orienting towards our customers, the opportunity we have with our customers, which is substantial and making sure we're running the business well for our shareholders as well and getting appropriate risk-adjusted returns on the business we do. It's not a -- we're still the largest bank in the business. We're still the largest servicer. We don't chase. We want to be #1 in everything. We want to be the best in everything. I think the other part of your question was originations for servicing, and what I talked about probably has more to do with originations and that focus on our customers. From a servicing perspective, servicing has become a really hard business for banks over the last decade-plus. And so you've seen all of the large banks sort of shrink the size of what they're doing in servicing, and that's been our trajectory. The goal isn't to shrink to nothing, the goal is to shrink to whatever size is appropriate to be able to take care of our customers. But there's probably some -- as we continue to get smaller in servicing, there's probably some efficiency opportunities there as well.

If I could just add to the question on nonconforming mortgages. I think you pulled back during the beginning of the pandemic or pre-pandemic. What are you doing in nonconforming today?

Yes. We're fully back. So at the start of the pandemic with a high degree of uncertainty, it wasn't clear what would happen to housing values, it wasn't clear what the impact would be on the asset cap. We had a strategic pause, and I think the housing values have been robust. And we have a lot of liquidity, which we'd like to put to work in the form of loans. So we're fully back, and our core jumbo portfolio is growing again.

Betsy Graseck from Morgan Stanley. A couple of follow-ups there. One, on the mortgage side. In the old days with the origination and the servicing, that dynamic was helping to drive the kind of size and scale that Wells wanted to be. But now you're talking about how unit servicing is tough, and we're going to be pulling that back down. How should we think about originations as the other side of that pendulum? Are you saying that originations will also be relative to servicing? Or is there a new way of thinking about the originations business at Wells Fargo such that servicing is not that offset like we had been hearing in the past?

I would actually think about it as the size of servicing should be relative to originations. It's not the size of originations relative to servicing. So we have a larger share in servicing than we do in originations, and you just kind of do the math and play that out and it says your -- the size of your servicing book will shrink until those normalize. But it's not a -- that's why I say it's going to normalize at some point because that's just where the math will take you.

Can you talk a little bit about what you're doing on the technology side of mortgage? Again, going back a few years, you were at one point highlighting best in class, but now there's much faster integrated offerings out there. So where are you on your technology investment in mortgage relative to where you want it to be?

Yes. And I can't speak about what we said in the past because honestly, I don't necessarily know. But the -- but yes, it's a business that I think across the industry requires significant investment. There's a lot that's changing. There's always a lot that's changing due to regulation. And since the pandemic, there's been a lot of new rules. But there's also significant opportunity to get better, faster, more efficient in terms of the way the process works for customers, and we are making the investments to do that on both the originations and the servicing side. And one of the great things about being a scale player in the business is you can make those investments, and I think it's got to be a lot harder for people who don't have that scale. And if they're not able to make the investment, they'll fall behind.

Is that investment spend self-generating at this stage? Or are you net increasing the investment? I mean I'm asking the question in the context of we're all looking for Wells Fargo to have expenses come down over time. And I'm just wondering from your seat, not only in mortgage but in all the businesses that you run, how should we be thinking about gross and net expenses over the next couple of years here?

Yes. And I think it's really important as we talk about the expense efficiency opportunity we have as a company, to recognize what we're talking about is eliminating waste and bureaucracy and things that don't add to the experience of our customers. It does not mean that we're not going to be investing and we are going to be investing. And in fact, that investment is part of what's going to enable realizing more efficiency. In places where we've underinvested, we've tended to make underinvestment in technology, for example, we've tended to make up for that by having more people. And you see the amount of people we have relative to some of our peers, you can see that. As we make the investments in technology, it should enable us to realize the expense efficiency. And that's true for mortgage, and that's true for the company as a whole.

I have a high-level macro question on the operating economic cycle or the economic cycle. And it'd be an understatement to say for the last 2 years, it's been an unusual environment. And if you rewind back to April of 2020, people like Jamie Dimon were forecasting higher losses, lower home prices, et cetera. We, as analysts, we're doing the same thing. We've had an unusual early cycle recovery where you -- and certainly, on the credit side, it's been much better than expected. Let's say we're in the mid-cycle going to late cycle and presentation after presentation is describing a normal late cycle process of yield curve steepening, loan growth picking up, et cetera. You're going to put on your creative hat and say it's not been normal so far, why would it not be normal in the late cycle?

I'll try to answer the question. If I don't -- if I'm not answering it to get to the heart of it, you can ask me a different way. We try really hard not to predict cycles and to run a company that's going to operate well through cycles. And if there's anything that's been a hallmark of the period since March of last year, it's been uncertainty. And I think like a few years from now, we'll be able to tell you how '22 played out and whether we were late cycle, mid-cycle, early cycle or it was a totally different cycle than what we anticipated. What's been interesting from where I sit is to remember the days you were talking about, where we all said, "Oh my gosh, this is the next crisis. Credit losses are going to be huge. We want to make sure we reserve for it. We want to protect ourselves, batten down the hatches." And since then, there's been a record injection of liquidity into the system. Our customers, not everybody, it's been uneven, but our customers, by and large, at almost every decile of the wealth spectrum have more money today than they did 2 years ago, and that just wasn't anticipated. Now the byproduct of that is payment rates are higher, so people are paying down debt. It's been harder to grow loans. Credit losses are lower. Spending, which initially dipped, has actually picked up and is accelerating. And maybe there can be some inflationary effects that we'll also have.

I think those are all holdovers from the stimulus category. But if you go back to pre-pandemic in 2019 or '18, we had an environment where it was -- we called it the new normal. It was slow growth. It was tough to keep margins stable. It was tough to find loan growth. Why are we going to go back to a different environment than pre-pandemic?

Well, I'll just maybe share some data points that I think are interesting, which is that loans are growing again for the first time since the start of the pandemic. And maybe in a strange way, the pandemic lengthens the cycle a little bit, if that's what you're asking. But it's -- what's the saying? Like the cycles don't die of old age. There's usually an impetus that leads to the end of the cycle, start of a new cycle. And the pandemic has been an impetus, and it's hard to predict fully the way it's going to play out and how long it's going to last. But I'd argue, at least from what I see, we are -- and I don't know if it's early innings, mid innings or late innings of a new cycle where we're seeing those dynamics of healthy liquidity from consumers, higher payment rates, which -- and as a result, lower credit losses, quite responsible behavior and interestingly, new high points, high-water marks in terms of spending.

You referenced at the beginning your desire to grow the credit card business that -- and clearly #2 in debit, #9 in credit. But the large players that are growing the -- trying to grow their books, they generally find they have to do concessionary deals to just generate the volume. So what is your approach to trying to grow that business and narrow the gap with peers?

Yes. It starts with developing great products that our customers love. So we started with the cash back space because it's, frankly, the largest part of the market and rolled out our first product, Active Cash, in July. And we set out to build the best cash back card in the marketplace, and we think we've done that. And the early feedback from customers has been great. It's a long road. So Wells Fargo isn't necessarily the first place people think of for a credit card, not the way they might for mortgage or some -- or a deposit account, but we're seeing some growth in that unaided awareness of us as a credit card participant. And if we look at the third quarter after we launched the card versus the second quarter, we saw a significant increase in the new customers we can help with credit cards both from our existing customer base, which was the primary focus where that was up, call it, 50% plus; and new customers to Wells Fargo, which actually grew quite a bit more than that, albeit off a smaller base.

I was wondering if I could just pick up a little bit on the sort of the credit cycle question in one specific area, which is auto lending and really more sort of underwriting of current originations as opposed to the back book. How do you -- or what are you sort of you and the industry each doing given the sort of spike in price? I mean let's just sort of kind of drive your LTV models and all those sort of risk models sort of just -- you get funny outcomes, I'm guessing. So I'm just wondering what you're doing, what do you see the industry doing. Is it an area that actually gives you pause because it doesn't feel like this sort of level of pricing is sustainable?

Yes. And I'll answer the question. Just a little context first on our auto business. The auto business is probably 4 years into a turnaround from a decentralized business that had a lot of issues to a centralized, better-controlled business. As we talked about building a risk and control foundation, it's -- there's been an enormous amount of progress there. In the last 2 quarters, we had record auto originations. It was our top 2 quarters, which might sound surprising in a world where there's supply chain issues. But we are a predominantly used car lender versus new. So on the new vehicle side, the volumes are down, prices are up a little, but the volume impact is greater than the price impact. On the used car side, volume's down a little, but prices are up 60% year-over-year. So there's a bigger tailwind from the price side. I think the nature of your question though was with that big increase in prices, does that change the way you think about credit risk? And I would say I think we are appropriately mindful of it. I can't speak for the whole industry, which I know is part of your question, but we model that prices aren't going to stay at that level. So we're pricing, we think, intelligently for good risk-adjusted returns, assuming prices normalize kind of beginning the day after the loan is originated. And so far, that hasn't happened yet, and we don't try to predict when that's going to happen. We expect that it will at some point when the supply chain issues normalize.

Do you anticipate changing your credit box to drive future growth?

Maybe a little bit similar to what I said with mortgage. There's no imperative to be a certain size. And actually, for -- you should be happy to hear that from a consumer lending leader if you're an investor in the company. Like it's very dangerous to run a lending business to try and achieve size hurdles. We want to generate appropriate risk-adjusted returns for our shareholders and deliver great products and services to our customers. So the -- we like what we're seeing in the environment now, and we're willing to consider anything that we think where we can be credited intelligent and generate good risk-adjusted returns, but we don't feel that we need to do anything.

Now let's talk about the mobile app. I mean if we went back a few years, basically, Wells, JPMorgan, BofA all had about the same number of users. Now JPMorgan is way ahead with 44 million. Of the 3, Wells lags with sub-30 million. So what's going on there? Why is there a difference? Is it product? Is it ease of use? What's going on there? And then also coming back to Jon's earlier question about fintechs. Do you see mobile wallets like Cash App or Venmo becoming full-service banking apps? Or are they going to stay kind of niche peer-to-peer payments, Bitcoin or whatever?

Yes. I'm going to stay away from speculating on the competition and where they might be going but it's probably best to ask them. But I can tell you within Wells Fargo, there is a very high degree of focus on digital and continuing to invest and improve our products. So in the first quarter next quarter, we plan to roll out a new version of the mobile app, and we have a number of investments and new features that we're going to be bringing to the market on a regular basis through next year and beyond. So we're pretty excited about it. We think our customers will be, too.

Not long ago, during earnings season, I know a couple of the larger banks had expressed willingness to invest pretty heavily in the card space and spend what they have to spend to compete, particularly on the emerging areas like buy now, pay later. What are your thoughts on that area, specifically the potential investment in that space to compete as money flows into it?

Yes. In buy now, pay later? You're talking about credit card...

Yes, simply buy now, pay later. And then yes, you can definitely talk about investment in the card business as well. I'd like to hear that.

Well, I'll hit the card business first because I think it's a quick and easy answer, which is we're coming at it from a different place from everybody else you hear talking about it. Again, that core opportunity for us is just that our customers are spending on other people's cards. We know them better than they do. We should be able to reach them more efficiently and make better credit decisions, and that's the focus of the card business. So I think in some ways, we're a little idiosyncratic in terms of our opportunity in cards. For buy now, pay later, it's an interesting space. I mean even like the term buy now, pay later, I gave air quotes, I guess, for people that are listening to this on the audio. Arguably, like a credit card is a buy now, pay later product. A personal loan is where someone's financing a purchase as a buy now, pay later product. I recognize the way it's described now is new in the sense that it's reaching new customers who haven't traditionally been borrowers, and it's giving merchants new ways to reach customers. And I think there's some interesting and innovative things that are happening there. We brought together a couple of our businesses, our personal loan business and our retail services, which was predominantly a private label credit card business into a new business unit. Brought in a new leader, who's got deep experience in the space. And so we think we have a lot of assets to put to work. We'll probably be considered late to the party, but we think when we show up at the party, we'll show up in an attractive and responsible way.

Bank of America was pretty -- it was much earlier than your company in reducing the size of its branch network by selling off different geographies. And before you joined Wells, Wells had done 1 or 2 transactions as well, selling off or attempting to sell off geographies. Is that something you think that will come back into play?

I'd be careful about writing off branches too quickly. We -- and my partner, Mary Mack, likes to remind us we still have 1 million customers a day on average in our branches, and it's a great source of acquiring new customers, and it's a great opportunity to provide our customers with advice and help with new products and services. So we've talked a lot about the opportunities that are in digital. There's also significant opportunities in our branches. And the -- and Mary has built a team, like we've said, with other areas, a combination of people who've been doing it for a long time and new leaders, and I think there's some exciting opportunities in terms of what we can be doing from the branches.

Following up on that. And this is not novel, but most of all the other banks who've spoken today who don't have a label, a national footprint for branches, talk about going into other people's markets with sort of a digital-only or at least a digital-first and a handful of branches. You all are effectively in most of the markets you'd want to be in any way. Maybe this is sort of a more -- would be for Mary, but I'd be curious for your thoughts on sort of how you think about your competitive position in that environment where -- how do you sort of defend against that when you can't sort of turn around and go into their markets because you're already there?

Yes. I mean I think we feel great about the branch footprint that we have. We feel great about the customer relationships we have there. And we have a national franchise, which has a lot of benefits for customers and a lot of benefits that come from scale. Branch banking is also at the same time inherently a very local business. And if and as we take great care of our customers and our branches, we have more than enough opportunity. And a lot of the work that we're doing across the company is foundational, that should give us the opportunity to deliver new product, services, growth with our customer base. So long way of saying we feel really good about our position.

Mike, question here. You're also responsible for Merchant Services, right?

Yes.

So could you give us a sense when you sit down with those clients, what it is that they're looking for that they're not getting from others that you're focused on delivering? And what kind of investments, if any, you need to make to deliver on those? And what kind of opportunity we should be thinking about Merchant Services within your platform?

Yes. I've actually brought in the answer out a little bit because what we're really talking about is business customers across the spectrum. But -- and I'll probably focus more on small businesses in my answer because I think there's significant opportunity for Wells Fargo with small business customers. Customers want deposit accounts. They want the ability to accept payments, which is Merchant Services, and then they want the ability to make payments, which small business card is a big component of. So the opportunity is to bring all of those together in a seamless way, where as a Wells Fargo customer, it's better in terms of the features that come with it and simpler than it would be with anybody else in the marketplace. And that's -- those are the investments we're making, and that's the opportunity we're going after.

Looked at the return on equities for the consumer businesses for Bank of America and JPMorgan relative to Wells, and they exceed yours. Do you have any perspectives on what it's going to take for you to close that gap?

Yes. I think when you compare us to our national consumer peers, there's a lot that's similar. We have national footprints. We, by and large, offer the same set of products. There are some differences as well. So when you look at the product mix, we are much more heavily weighted towards secured lending, mortgage and auto, relative to unsecured. And they have very different cost profiles and very different return profiles. And I think -- so that's just like as you do the analysis, it's almost important to click a layer below just Consumer Banking and Lending to do the compares, but I think that also speaks to the opportunity. I think as we invest in our credit card business and some other businesses, I think you'll see that mix start to move a little bit in the direction of where maybe the industry is as a whole, and there should be attractive opportunity in that transition.

I think we have time for one more question.

Or maybe it's Friday, day 2 of the conference, everybody is ready to go.

All right. Who -- I'll just end with a question. Who -- which -- does anyone have the answer? Which is older, the city of Fargo, South Dakota or Wells Fargo? I know Mike Mayo would know. That's a trick question because Fargo, South Dakota was named after one of the gentlemen who founded Wells Fargo.

Yes. So that means Wells Fargo is older. Yes, 1852.

Exactly. By 20 -- 21 years actually, yes.

Yes.

Well, thank you very much for attending. We really appreciate it.

Thank you.