Wise Group plc (WISE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody. My name is Matt, I'm CFO of Wise, and this is our third quarter update, so the third quarter of financial year '23. And I'm going to share the insights [indiscernible] quarterly basis on how we've grown. So I'll cover the headlines pretty quickly, then we'll open up to Q&A. And we've got Martyn Adlam here, who's on hand to take questions. [Operator Instructions] So we've got about 45 minutes. Let me get on. So first off, what have we seen in the quarter? Well, we see continued great progress on our mission in the quarter. Once again, more than 50% of our payments, for Instant, that means arriving in less than 20 seconds, something really important to us. And that's thanks to obviously a lot of investment in our product. But one thing is pretty cool is the integration into the [indiscernible] system now in Brazil. It's offering a huge population, great products, and we're fully integrated [indiscernible]. Next thing on price. Obviously, we care deeply about price. And whilst we did see our average price in the quarter increase, that's actually thanks to price increases we've made in previous quarters, and we've been speaking about here. But actually, in the quarter, we did manage to reduce some prices. So what does that mean? Well, in some key routes we've seen, like Brazil, where we dropped prices by about 10%, and if you send money to Mexico, we're almost half the prices. Pretty cool. And our product also got more convenient, both for people and businesses. For businesses, you can actually now receive money much more conveniently. We talked about letting businesses receive card payments [indiscernible] receiving payments by our link. It's actually pretty sweet, and works nicely if you need [indiscernible] collect money from your customers around the world. It's super convenient. And we're also testing cash back on cards, cards and for businesses in the U.K. But what might be interesting more topical at the minute as well is what's happening to our assets products and the interest that we might be offering on some of our balances. In the U.K., you might have seen that we launched our interest product in our assets product. What this means is that you can now get instant access to your balance, but also how it invested in the government bond where you can have the bank the central bank interest rate, whether it's in pounds, in dollars or in euros. It's pretty convenient and pretty cool as well for our customers, and we're excited to see how that picks up. And then also, if you're a customer in Europe, you might have seen that we're actually providing cash back to customers who hold a balance. So [indiscernible] starts to return some of the interest that we earn on those balances. So lots of things happening as usual. But what does this all mean for our growth and the financials of the results? So more and more customers continue to join the top Wise. So we saw 5.8 million customers active on Wise in the quarter. That's up 33% versus last year. These customers moved GBP 27 billion of cross-border volume, and that's up 28% year-over-year. And actually, if you think about that with the take rate and the piece that we're collecting from our customers, revenue is up 50% year-on-year, which basically reflects that volume growth, but also -- and the active customer growth, but also actually some of the effects of the Wise account, but also the price changes in the last quarters. So 50% year-over-year revenue growth is pretty healthy. Looking -- clicking into volumes, what we saw in the Q3, we actually saw that we saw this pull-forward that we've talked about in the last quarters. And by that time, increased VPC in the previous quarters, thanks to FX volatility, we -- those when rates have been volatile. People, especially those moving large payments or discretionary payments, have been pulling those payments forward. And we saw that come through in the last quarters with much higher VPC and then a lower VPC, particularly for personal customers in this quarter. So interestingly, first, we saw that, if you look at our customers that moved less than 10,000 in the quarter, which is an awful lot of our customers, we actually saw them -- the volume from these customers continue to grow quarter-on-quarter. But actually, we saw this most acutely in the customers that move more than 10,000, and we think, therefore, have discretion, personal customers have got discretion when they move that money. And it was most acute in customers sending USD as well. Now -- and initially as well, when you look at businesses, actually, these VPCs continue to tick up Q-on-Q. There's a bunch of factors driving that, things like Wise Account adoption and general growth in the product. But actually, that shows underlying that those underlying trends, which businesses products less discretionary [indiscernible]. But if we think longer term, like nothing really changes here. And for those that have followed us for a while, you'll see we've got really resilient and solid cohort behaviors and dynamics with our customers, people and businesses. And if anything, we've got positive tones to them with Wise Account adoption. But we've always said there could be volatility in the short term, and we've seen 2 very high quarters with VPC, and now we've seen one down. And so we're very focused on long term. That's how we build our products, but we always see some of this volatility. But overall, volume growing very healthy year-over-year, and revenue growing at 50% year-over-year. So then we get to total income. And total income is that revenue plus the net interest income [indiscernible], but the interest we're earning on our balances, and that grew 80% year-over-year, which is obviously benefiting from a higher yield on growing balances. But it also importantly reflects the fact that whilst we're launching these initiatives to try and reward customers for holding balances with us and using our Wise Account, it's quite early on. So actually, the rates at which we are kind of paying interest or returning this cash back to customers will increase, and we'll scale up from where we are today. As far as a result, when we look at that for the year, we've got -- we're actually increasing our guidance for total income for the year, from 55% to 60% previously, up to 68% to 72% for the year. And as I've noted with this with scaling up, this ability to return some of this interest to our customers, we're probably going to see H2 EBITDA margin. So second half of the year EBITDA margin higher than it was in H1. This is -- there's really no change to how we're running our business. We're a profitable business. We believe responsibly managing this sustainably in the long term. So there's really no change. We're cautious in how we're scaling up this approach. And there's no change, therefore, to our guidance for EBITDA in the medium term or how we're managing that. And finally, as you know, we run a stock-based compensation program for all Wise actually. And -- but we also really care about dilution. So our Employee Benefit Trust intends to acquire up to GBP 10 million of Wise shares in the rest of this financial year, so in the next 2.5 months. And the reason we're doing this is we're looking forward. As we issue more shares to our teams, we want to try and offset and reduce down the impact of that and the dilution of our shareholders, which you obviously care deeply about. So we're just -- this is a start, and we'll reveal more plans as we think about this as we go forward. But this is something that we're doing right now. We're a profitable, well-capitalized business. So in summary, great focus on the mission, awesome customer growth, more and more customers joining us, almost 6 million actives now, moving almost 30% more volume a year ago, 50% revenue growth, and actually total income growing at 80% for the quarter. Lots of work to do on how we work through interest with our customers, but a pretty good start. So I'm going to pause there and take questions. [Operator Instructions]

Thanks, Matt. Yes, first question comes from the line of Aditya at Bank of America. Aditya, if you could repeat your question for me, please, and I'll read that out here.

Sure. Could you hear me, Martin.

I can hear you, Aditya. Yes. Thank you.

Okay. Great. So my first question is on the volume growth, should we think that the impact of the pull-forward is largely done in Q3? Or should we see some more of that in Q4 as well, I mean the reversal of that pull-forward? Could you just talk about...

Yes, I'll just read that one out first, Aditya. Matt, do you think the impact of the pull forward has largely flushed through in Q3?

Thanks. So has the pull-forward flushed, repeated for the third time, flushed in Q3? We saw this last -- so it's too early to tell in January. And I would say that January and February are always relatively -- if there is any seasonality, we see these as slower months. But we saw this last -- remember, we saw this pull-forward last for a couple of months. So if we revert to the long run average, then it could last a quarter, it could last longer than this. So I wouldn't say it's definitely kind of all back to normal. But then again, like we see good underlying dynamics in the smaller payments. We see good underlying dynamics with businesses. So I would say that we're in volatile times and some of this can continue.

Okay. Great. I have a couple more. Just given some of these dynamics from the volume growth, then the new full year guidance implies about 64% to 80% growth, total income growth in 4Q. So could you just talk about the underlying assumptions there? I mean how much of that is coming from -- is factoring in the -- some of the impact on volume growth and also maybe the interest income maybe being a bit better. Just what are the underlying assumptions there, if you could talk about that?

Yes, Matt, if you could talk about some of the underlying assumptions that's baked into the guidance for the rest of the year, please?

So I won't go assumption by assumption, as you'd expect. But when we look at the guidance for the year, we think about what are the dynamics on volume or the dynamics on take rates or the prices we're charging our customers. How will the balances grow? The rates grow? And then at what rate will we repeat kind of return interest to our customers? And we -- it's quite uncertain. So it's quite early in -- clearly, like we've seen a lot of volatility in volume, but we have good confidence in the underlying rate at which our customer base is growing. There's varying scenarios on VPC, obviously, as you'd expect, for personal customers. And then there's different scenarios around how -- the rate at which we can manage to pay some of this interest back to our customers. So these are the drivers we think about, and we take a view across these that we have a range where we're very, very confident. But as I said, like in the long term and medium term, we see no change really. I'm pretty excited around the rate at which we're seeing our customer base grow. And also therefore, we -- if we think about the growth -- fundamental growth of practice in the business, this is pretty healthy. And the challenge we have is just taking these drivers for Q4.

And just one final one. On the interest income, you gave an update on -- or you spoke about the mix of balances and how they're invested at the first half results. Any change in that? Anything which might help us to model that interest income line a bit better as we go into Q4? And also maybe how you think about the -- how you're passing that back to customer? Does that ramp up more in Q4? Is that more of an FY '24 thing?

Thanks, Aditya. Yes. So the question is, has there been any change in the mix of invested assets with respect to those customer balances since half year? And how are you thinking about the ability to ramp up the pass back of that to customers?

So no real change in this. So we -- we're seeing growth across all currencies, and then growth, we still use the same asset classes to think about -- we talked about government bonds, we talk about money market funds and we talked about cash in our banks. And we're working with all these partners to make sure we earn an appropriate return. So no radical changes there, Aditya. In terms of passing that back, like we're working on a bunch of things and different things that are allowed and different things working in different geographies. So we've seen in the U.K., we're focused on our assets products. In Europe, we've actually worked how to do cash back on balances. And we'll be working on all these different things in different [indiscernible]. It's really early to talk about what we can do or even the quantums that we can do. But hopefully, you'll see some of this shift in the next weeks, months and quarters, and we'll give you an update on this, as you'll see how we get on in the next couple of months in our April update. Thanks, Aditya. Martin, do we?

Thanks, Aditya. Next question comes from the line of Kim Bergoe at Numis.

I'm not sure, Matt, probably can hear me...

I can hear you.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Even better. Well, thanks. First of all, in terms of that interest that you just talked about, is there anything in, I guess, some of that passing back that interest. Some of that could go through -- I mean, obviously, it's going to go through the cost line that we haven't seen this time around. But has anything gone through the take rate in terms of you passing back that way? That was the first question. The second question, coming back to what you already touched upon and I think in the previous question was also part of that, is that fall in revenue per customer in retail? It is when I take the graph, the sort of longer-term graph, is a pretty steep fall. Could -- a little bit more about what's driving that? And also, just macroeconomic sensitivities, is that part of it, you think? Or why might that be? Because if I look at your sort of volumes per customer in personal or retail customers down to 3.5, I mean we're back sort of 2 years before seeing a similar number, and it's been growing then and then now back. So is this macroeconomic sensitivity coming through, do you think?

Thanks. So on the first question, has the interest [indiscernible]? Actually, the number -- the total income includes like the net interest. So the gross interest we get in, less the interest that we would have paid back. But that was pretty small in the last quarter, what we paid back. So it does include it, but it's very small. And in the future, you'll see this net interest will be net of the interest of the interest paid out. On the revenue customer piece, quarterly movement, yes, you've seen a drop in the volume per customer here. But actually, if you look at what increasing the number of customers using us, personal customers using us, and what they're doing with us actually shows continued momentum, the product that they're adopting and the things they do is Wise Account, they're spending on their cards, they're holding balances with us, but also converting money. It's just the rate at which they [indiscernible] money has been volatile over this period. And we've seen some of that before. But actually, this is a very short time quarter-on-quarter. We've always said that we will see some quarter-on-quarter changes in this. And we believe that's related to FX. Now there's a lot going on the world economically. But actually, if you look at 2 things, and we called this out. One is if you look at just the number of -- if you look at the customers that are moving less than 10,000, which is an awful lot of money to be moving still. This has been very stable and has been growing. I appreciate we haven't shared the data. But when we look at that, that's kind of growing quarter-on-quarter, which actually tells me that there's pretty healthy underlying [indiscernible] tough economics, healthy underlying need and ability to move money. And secondly, if you look at small businesses, our business segment is primarily small, it definitely would be acutely impacted by economic, Actually, that's been very sustained on a quarter-on-quarter growth in VPC. So I do believe that given that this is large payments, people maybe with a lot more money who are actually connected to USD as we said, for people with discretion, I think this is more FX driven rather than economic, Kim.

Thanks, Kim. The next question comes from the line of James Goodman at Barclays.

And a couple for me, please, as well. Maybe firstly, just on the guidance, on the profitability side. It's pretty clear that the total income is going up largely because of the interest income coming through, that there's a question around the sustainability of that as you want to -- intend to pass a lot of it back to some customers. And therefore, for now, whilst you're benefiting from it, it's also dropping through to a higher profitability in the second half. I guess all of that to say, is it the right assumption to think that the majority of this upside on the total income line is what we're seeing dropping through into the second half on the EBITDA? And then as we start to think about your fiscal '24, I mean, wouldn't it be a fair assumption to say you're still going to have quite a lot of interest income, you still don't want to run your OpEx drastically higher to offset that? So we could actually have a -- some continuation of this higher EBITDA margin into fiscal '24 before you sort of trend back towards your medium-term objective?

Yes. So some of this excess or there's interest income that we would like to try to pay back to customers, but we've got to work out how. Whilst we believe that we can do that and then medium term, but we haven't worked out how to do it, some of that interest absolutely could drop through to the EBITDA. And that's exactly why we flagged this. It's hard for us to -- and I appreciate [indiscernible] hard for us to pinpoint this for multiple reasons. But one is like the rate at which we can make progress on these is very current on the -- so it's hard to gauge exactly what will drop through. But going forward -- but it will be -- we can expect to see the [indiscernible] of this, this half year to be above what we saw before. But going forward, actually, we would -- maybe if we're not talking about the first months of FY '24, but over the year and then beyond, when we've guided to this medium-term EBITDA margin, nothing really should change because we do believe in most of these geographies, we should be able to work out how to do something with interest. It may be different and we may have different treatments. But I would rather think that -- we really want to invest in building an amazing proposition for our customers to come and use the Wise Accounts. And part of that is price on conversion. Part of that is amazing account, but also part of that is actually being a pretty compelling place to hold your money. So I would rather think about no real change to the EBITDA thinking here, but actually, like we're pushing hardest first to say, how do we return the appropriate amount of this to our customers, whilst running a really healthy, profitable -- so a bit early to tell on that, James. But at the moment, no change to that guidance.

Okay. Understood. The second question, just around the take rate at 85 basis points, which was extremely strong sequentially. You called out just 2 basis points of that was driven by a higher customer price, which I think we've spoken about quite a bit in the past. So the question is just around the rest of the increase in that take rate. How much was ancillary revenues versus a more favorable mix as a consequence of what the prior questions are focused on and the volume effects this quarter to help us think about what amount of that take rate increase is sustainable into coming quarters, perhaps as the volume per customer picks back up?

Yes. I think a good question. Actually, it's a range of things in there. There's share price increases. There's [indiscernible] mix, which is something. There is also payment size mix, which I think you've picked up there, James. And then there's products. So we see across all of these. We talked about payments. So we think -- we talked about price increases. We still continue to see other revenues grow healthily as people adopt Wise account and spend on the card. And then the rest is really a mix of route and payment size. So actually, it's kind of a bit correlated, but as we see growth in maybe market by Brazil, it might be at higher price points, we would see like an impact on the take rate. But actually, those markets also have got maybe slightly lower VPCs. So that is kind of a correlation and effect that -- and then generally, like on the very high payments that we've seen a reduction of, like, first on this VPC, those would be at a marginally lower take rate. So James, to give you some clarity, you called out a couple of it. I'd say it's pretty spread evenly across those drivers. It's reasonably evenly. It's not purely focused on one of them. And -- so I would -- I will think about it that way. So in your context of should VPC return, actually, like one of those factors could be like -- could be affected in the take rate. But actually, in the route mix, the Wise Account adoption and obviously, the price rises would sustain.

Thanks, James. The next question comes from the line of Alastair Nolan at Morgan Stanley. You might need to do the... Alastair, do you want to try again?

Yes. I think I'm on mute. Can you hear me now?

Yes. Got you.

Excellent. Yes. My first question was just around, I guess, the interest product that you've launched. How should we think about the impact of that product when it comes to the ability to generate net interest income in the future and the strategy around that? And also, if you could kind of link it into any comments around kind of trends you've seen in the growth in a Wise Account balances because I'm conscious the product is, I'm sure, designed to keep more funds on the platform. So maybe you can kind of link those together and help us with how we should think about that moving forward.

Yes. So actually, so we've launched this interest products where people can invest. You can opt to go into a Wise account [indiscernible] interest. What actually happens there is the balances move from our balance sheet onto -- into the fund. So actually, the balances we report, if you were to look on our balance sheet, it wouldn't include those balances. But we still earn a fee because we charge a fee on this product. So we effectively have -- ideally, we'd have 2 methods of -- 2 models in our balance. We have customers that holds balances with us, and where we can, we might -- we'd earn interest because we invest those assets and we pass some of that interest back to our customers. And then we'd have -- where we launched a product where we enable our customers to invest in a product that directly would -- they can earn interest directly on as a fund and then we don't have a fee on. So it's a slightly different model now. Clearly, if customers want a government-backed bond at the Central Bank rate, instant access is quite unique. They can invest and click through to our interest products. And that's going to be pretty market-leading product, we believe, that will give those customers who are very, very sensitive to that option. Customers don't want to do that for some reason, they can still hold money in the balance, not yet in the U.K., but in other -- our goal would be to be able to pay them interest on that balance. So on our balance sheet, we'll show the model where the model -- the money is on our balance sheet, Alastair. On some, we'll earn the interest and pass some of the interest on. And on other models, we won't earn interest, but we'll earn a fee, an asset management fee.

That's helpful. And maybe just a second question for me. Just on the volume slowdown, you mentioned it in the kind of higher volume cohorts. I guess what gives you confidence around the fact that it is indeed pull-forward, which I know you had previously flagged and that's what you experienced in the first half, as opposed to perhaps the impact of higher competition or new entrants in the space? Kind of what gives you -- what data points you're looking at to kind of give you confidence in that conclusion?

Yes. So -- so the first thing we can look at is, like, from our customer base, like where is this impacted? And where have we seen the spikes as well? So we've seen it on personal volume that is higher value payments quite acutely there in the -- in people sending dollars, not receiving dollars, sending dollars, right? And we've seen that also around key points, like early in the year, when we saw a lot of rate volatility, and then particularly in September, when -- we all know -- painfully the rate at which the dollar was strengthening and then we saw movements in the pound as well. So there's a high correlation to those events, and it's also in payments where customers have discretion as to when they might try and move this money. So actually, if you look at the less than 10,000 payments, these grew pretty healthily through that period, both the active customers and the money they're moving. And then -- and then if you look at businesses as well, business has got less discretion, but as much, if not more, like economic exposure, I believe, at the minute, and that's growing pretty healthily. So I'm pretty sure that we all know that the economies and all of our customers are in an economic situation [indiscernible] no doubt that. But we seem to be relatively resilient to this. I'm sure that's already baked in the aggregate. But where we can see the most acute change Q-on-Q in volume is in this personal VPC. And we've seen this go up and down in the past. And clearly, we've seen it drop and -- and maybe that will last as long who knows, I'm not calling like when this will return. But there's nothing fundamentally changed in how customers are using us, how often they're using us. And in the long run, I'd expect the product we're building to continue to have resilient characteristics as we've seen in the past.

And just to clarify what you were saying there is where you saw the real uptick was higher volume customers previously selling dollars when the dollar was [indiscernible].

That's right. So like I think when you think about competition, it's like who in the U.S., and like who -- are there any people on banks or specific partners, players in the U.S. market which could be a substitution now versus then, and we don't really see that. I think in other parts of the world, it would be [indiscernible] really in that market. I don't think [indiscernible] has really gone -- is really that -- the factor that we're seeing there.

Yes, makes sense.

Thanks, Alastair. The next question, Matt, comes from Omar Keenan at Credit Suisse.

Sorry if this has been asked already. I won't ask another question on VPC. But just on the capital, the regulator has approved for the purposes of mitigating the dilution of share-based compensation. Just wondered -- I know you guys have called out GBP 10 million, but could you share how big the approval actually is? And just my second question is on the take-up of Wise Accounts moving into the interest asset management product, any early indicators on how that's looking?

So on the capital, I won't share the quantum. We obviously get -- I think as you know, it sounds like you're pretty familiar with the [indiscernible]. You need a regulatory approval for these things. And this is the first time. So we're just getting started. Like part of this is to get the pipes working and learn how to do this like. Especially for stock comp and curing this dilution is something -- something we want to get -- really desperately want to get started with. We've agreed internally for this GBP 10 million in this financial year, and we'll have capacity to do -- if we wanted to do more, to do more, but this is the GBP 10 million is what we're internally saying, this is what we're going to do right now. To capital, we've got a very healthy eligible capital balance, and that's growing, as you can see or would expect. But like the primary thing we think about capital is how do we preserve a very healthy, resilient capital base, whilst we're in this incredible growth phase of the company. On the second question, which is like -- sorry, Omar, was -- what -- any statistics on the interest and asset products. Was that right?

Yes. I just wanted to get a sense as to -- as to what proportion of the Wise Accounts may end up moving into these interest products?

So it's early on, and we're not disclosing the split on this, but we hope that actually -- I mean, it's a very new product for the market, really, we believe. So it's going to take time to explain it and understand it and customers to buy into this. So it's early doors. But -- and remember, it's only in the U.K. as well so far, but we're actively trying to get licenses to do this in other parts of the world. And we see in the future, this is part of our proposition for holding money in Wise. But early on, we haven't disclosed [indiscernible].

Thanks, Omar. The next question, Matt, comes from Josh Levin at Autonomous.

Just one question for me. You don't have a banking license. Some of your competitors do. Any -- have you rethought perhaps possibly getting a banking license? And if you're not interested in the banking license, why not?

Thanks for the question, Josh. So we don't have a banking license, you're right. And in some areas, this could -- this makes it harder for us to pay interest back, I think, is the relevant. It also stops us being able to lend if we wanted to do that. So far, we haven't had a need to do this. Like actually the way we're working, the products we're able to ship and the problems we can solve for our customers, absolutely don't need -- our interest products in the U.K. enables us to offer customers interest on a government-backed assets, which we believe and Instant Access. We think that's very competitive from our proposition for our customers. And it's early, but hopefully, we'll be able to do this in other parts of the world. The other reason to get a banking license would be if we wanted to lend some of this money out to our customers. And that's not something we are planning on doing. And therefore, like, actually we believe actually the banking license isn't something that's really constraining the rate at which we can grow and solve the problem. We're incredibly focused on this cross-border international mining problem, which is international, whereas banking license tends to be very local.

Thank you, Josh. Matt, next question comes from the line of [indiscernible].

I was on mute. So the first one, I think this has been delved upon but just seeking a little bit more detail. So implied growth for 4Q, it is -- basically it is implying a deceleration in the ex interest income revenue growth. So are you assuming a significant further deceleration in VPC in personal? And how should we think of a normalized VPC run rate going forward in the personal side -- like side of the business?

So we set the guidance at a range of -- where we have confidence [indiscernible] number of dimensions which could move. So I won't go into the detailed underlying assumptions like -- what I would do, just -- we look at this, but actually, if you think about how we run the business, have run the business and will, is actually is in this long run customer dynamics. What gives us confidence to invest? And actually, to your second question, we don't see any real change in the long-run behaviors of our customers, right? So we've seen an increase in VPC, which we always thought was relative to rates. We've seen a drop now, which we believe is relative to volatility. But in the very long term, we don't see anything radically changing the behaviors that we've seen over the long term, which is a very stable cohort dynamics. Actually Wise Account, if anything, not helping on balance on VPC for people. And obviously, you can see the trend in -- per businesses. So I understand there's a range of outcomes for this guidance for Q4, but if you really think over the medium to long term, like very healthy. We still believe there's very healthy relationship with customers. And these cohort dynamics help us grow, obviously, very sustainably over the longer term.

Okay. Okay. And then the next one, how do you think that, like, your market share has evolved, especially like in the context of recent price increases? Has that changed the market share dynamic in any way that we should be mindful of?

So we have -- we actually don't see any -- I think we said this before. We don't see like any really hyper elastic responses to these changes in price. We've actually worked out over years how to explain to our customers, how we talk to them about price. And if we're dropping price, we explain why. If we're increasing price, we explain why. And the fundamental of this is building a relationship with our customers that they believe that we're charging a fair price. We're not charging what we can. We're charging what we need to. And we think this, over time, has built this relationship with our customers that, that means we're charging what we need to rather than what we can get away with. And this is really important, like I believe, fundamentally in our culture and also the relationships with our customers. So actually, I don't think our growth is -- the rate at which volume is moving is really driven by the rates. On the margin in some routes, this will help, like where we suddenly become competitive. But by and large, around the world, we're quite a lot cheaper than the alternatives that customers have. And then from a market share perspective, we know the market is growing. Actually, the market is growing. I think various reports of single-digit percentages. And notably, this year, actually -- or during recessions, in the last recession, it didn't grow. But you can see that we're growing quite a lot faster than the market. So you would expect our market share to have increased.

Okay. And just one last one. Could you help us quantify the uplift to the second half EBITDA margin from the higher drop-through from the interest income that we're expecting?

It's going to be -- yes, it's work in progress. So we need to work through this, and we'll see. But it really depends on the rate at which we can pass back some of this interest to our customers or how successful we are in scaling these programs. So I can't really give you a range. If I could have done, I would have done. It's definitely -- we wouldn't have called it out if it wasn't going to be sufficiently ahead of the 22% that we saw in the last half year. But again, nothing changes in the long run as to how we run the business. So we're calling it out, so it's not a surprise. But actually, please don't assume this is a data point [indiscernible].

Thanks so much. Matt, final question comes from Nick Anderson at Liberum.

Sorry. Can you hear me?

Go, go, go.

Yes, sorry. I had a mute problem. Apologies. I just wanted to understand the difference in size between those 2 cohorts on the personal side, the less than 10,000 and the greater than 10,000. I mean, my gut feeling is given the impact they had in the last 3 quarters, if you like, then clearly, they -- the cohort greater than 10,000 is material. But are we talking about 20%, 25%, much less than that, maybe more than that. Any guidance would be appreciated.

Yes. So -- it's quite [indiscernible] material, and it's quite a big chunk. So it's definitely more than the 25%. And yes, it's fair to assume that it's not -- but it's not the majority of the revenue either -- or sorry, the volume, either. We haven't disclosed that, but you're right, it's definitely more than the 25%. Any other questions? All right. Thanks very much, and appreciate bearing with us as we work out the buttons to press. So we do this every quarter. So we'll speak to you in another quarter. Hopefully, we'll have made some good progress on the things we've talked about. But just stepping back, pretty healthy growth, solid growth in our customer base, leading to revenue and then total income growth of 50% and 80%, respectively, and hopefully, continue to understand how we're running the business for the very long term. So I'll speak to you again, no doubt, in the coming days, some of you, but if not, I'll speak to you in a quarter. Thanks very much.