Advanced Info Service Public Company Limited (ADVANC) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

So good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to our Investor Day for 2026, The Next Growth Chapter. So today, let me remind you that participants on Zoom, if you want to listen in English, you may choose English room. And if you want to listen to in Thai, we also have translator available for you. The presentation is ready, and you can use this QR to download. Today, we have an honor of our CEO, Khun Pratthana. We have CFO, Khun Tee. Also, we have Chief Enterprise Business Officer, Khun Phupa. And also with us today, Chief Retail Officer, Khun Prapat. We also have Khun Nattiya in this room and myself -- I can't see, somewhere in this room and myself which I will be running this session. So the agenda for today will go through 4 key items, which are AIS '28, The Next Growth Chapter; B2C Integrated Consumer Home Solution; B2B Infrastructure Solution and AI Adoption; and we will follow closing the session with Investment For Future Growth. So let us give an applause to our CEO.

[Foreign Language] everyone here as well as on the conference via Zoom. Good afternoon to everyone. I hope that you are not feel sleepy that much after lunch here. You look a bit sleepy, I can see that. So I'd like to start addressing about what we like to call our Continuations Of Growth or our Next Growth Chapters. AIS, as all you know that we have been for the past 36 years as a telecommunication connectivity leaders. At this point, we're also proud to say that we provide the best telecommunication network in Thailand. At this point, we always want to address that we are doing it with high efficiencies. And at this point, as a continuation on, we have strong cash flow and balance sheet. So that who we are and what we provide for customer continue on for the last many years. From this year onwards, we would like to call it Next Growth Chapter with intelligent infrastructure. The Intelligent Infrastructure for us will enable our Next Growth Chapter of which it would be very much include 3 important components. The first one is Customer Centricity. Later on, during this afternoon, you'll hear a lot about this. Secondly is -- probably and most important is the National Digital Infrastructure. On the second one, we are now having mobile, fiber broadband and soon to be expanded global hyper connectivities, connecting the expanding of data centers as well as the sovereign cloud. So those are what I call it National Digital Infrastructure. And on top of that, the last piece is the Intelligent Platform. So those are 3 important piece, what I like to call it Intelligent Infrastructure for our Next Chapters of Growth. Putting things into the pictures, so we lay out into the digital infrastructure and talk about plus the platform, of which include smart living platform, entertainment platform and soon to be launched mid of the year digital finance platform on top of cloud and AI, soon will be in. So with that, we will be able to deliver multiple services to many group of customers. And in the customer view, as I mentioned, customer centricity is with all of this service, we will tailor personalize deliver for consumers. We will tailor and personalize to fit home. We will craft the solutions to enable digital enterprise. So those are 3 big customer groups that I call it customer centricity that we want to make sure that we grow our services with intelligent infrastructure. I'd like to address the first one, which is the infrastructure as a core. In here, the 5G network will be advanced 5G or 5G advanced. So that's number one. Number two, Fiber will continue on expanding to more homes beyond 20 million. Thirdly, we will connect not only in the country, but to the world as hyper connectivity connecting the world digital infrastructure back to Thailand and go out from Thailand. So we can enable expanding AI data center beyond 200 megawatts and expanding in the country, connecting to outside and connecting back in. And lastly, this is the digital infrastructure we truly believe it is a must, and we will be building it to so-called Sovereign Cloud. Sovereign data, sovereign cloud and later on sovereign AI will be a core infrastructure for us to serve the country. So these are 5 key digital infrastructure for the nation I talk about. Secondly, on the platforms. We are expanding the platform, as you saw from the very first stack pictures of smart living, entertainment as well as the digital finance on top of the cloud and AI, on top of many applications to deliver for both customer and enterprise. Those ones will get enabled with AI. In AI, we like to address it in 3 important pillars. The first one is the digital infrastructure with intelligent, which is in specific enhance for customer experience. It would mean that customer will get better experience through this intelligent Auto network, which is later on, I'll show you how we put it illustrated. So we should be able to deliver more capacity to customer, get better quality for customer at the same time beyond traditional network. The second piece is intelligence, artificial intelligence, so we can be very energy efficient. And beyond that, we can also increase our ability to protect on the cybers. So that's the second piece. And the last piece that I'd like to address is to get intelligent to turn into services for customer, which I will illustrate a little bit later. For the first one. So this is the illustration of how intelligent network would look like, one dimension of it. Currently, there are multiple base stations, more than 40,000 base stations around the countries and going to be more. And with that traffic we serve of almost 50 million customers, the moving order time, things could happen, accidents and all of those. Intelligent network will be self-adjusting for both coverage and how we serve the customer, whether they want more bandwidth or we need to adjust to make it suitable for multiple occasions. So with this, it's actually increase or serve 30% more in traffic, have a better experience for at least 10% more. And this is what I mentioned, increase the download traffic by 17%. That's one example of cell reselection, tower reselection. So these are intelligent part of intelligent infrastructure I'm talking about. So that's the first piece to increase and enhance customer experience. For Sustainability, intelligent infrastructure will help save energy for the delivery. It has shown already for us for the initial starts that we are able to save 5% already on the cost of energy, and it continue to be more. Of course, as a result, there are less emissions to the environment. Also on the sustainability point for the users and country, we enhanced the network safetiness into the next level with intelligence. I'll give you some example. We're now expanding the protection of virus and malware for every customer on the network. Using a centralized network protection, we enable that. We now uplift the capability to detect the scammers. I just talk over lunch, it's just my first job as CEO, the first few weeks and I got scammers on that. So that's one of the thing. We need to always continue on. So we use artificial intelligence to uplift that. And many of the fraud has been detected and prevented, and we continue to be more with the intelligent infrastructure I talked about. So that will help to serve customers in the safer environment. And lastly, on AI is to turn AI to services customers can benefit directly with the digital ecosystem. On the 10th of this month, soon to be, we will be launching some of the services together with partners. Maybe one close to our heart is all AI, which customers can enjoy at one pack. They can get used for every AI. That's one example that we'll be able to use the network as well as partnership to do so. And many more for both consumers as well as for the enterprise. On the enterprise, there's some important there with Microsoft, with Google Gemini coming on board. With Sovereign cloud, there will be much more, which turn into customer services. So these are 3 important parts from AI on the intelligent infrastructure. So with that, I hope you see some of the pictures we are building toward on the digital infra platform services, of which it will be delivered to individual customer personally and also help us capture more demand or answers them the demand that's about to come for both consumers, home and the business. With all of this, we mark ourselves to the New Chapter of Growth or the Next Chapter of Growth. We will continue on deliver the growth for both revenue as well as the profits. So that's for the starting of today. This is what I'd like to address for everyone here. You'll hear a lot more from Khun Tee, Khun Phupa on in-depth how we approach -- Khun Tee is smiling. I'll talk about 1 hour more on that. But please thank you very much for the start. Thank you.

Next, we have Khun Tee up for talking about our B2C business.

Good afternoon, everyone. Shall we go straight to Q&A? Just to save you some headache. Okay. On -- I think we call now B2C and B2B try to combine the mobile and broadband business together. As we mentioned that we basically want to embark on another growth chapter because I know that with the share price performance lately, a lot of maybe houses trying to see whether we can sustain the growth. What we try to show you is, at least on the demand side, right, we are on the right segment, the right platform. So you see mobile data usage still growing. Same thing with broadband connectivity. We do believe that the trend is still going up. From what I look at, now I have very young baby daughter, she's starting to play with the mobile phone right now. So at 2 years old. So that's a bit scary. But I think it's very easy to use and a lot of people using it more than just entertainment. So the trend, for sure, everyone knows is still going up. Broadband is still believe that with urbanization of the whole country, then we can actually penetrate more into the household. Quick one, e-commerce, value is still growing, a lot of people selling stuff and buying stuff more online. Same thing with, I think, social media. I think we are, as you know, one of the heavy users or heavy users countries of social media. We do believe that with the good practice that we try to promote, so people can use social media safely and also try to create more career opportunities or more economic value from that. And we want to be a part of that. So we know that we have a full responsibility to make sure that we service the right group of customers. I think as Khun Lee mentioned, that we also try to crack down on scammers and the wrong usage of our Internet. So at least on the demand side, we believe the growth is still there, right? So the key question is how can we really turn the demand into our growth on revenue. I think, first of all, before I think many, many years ago, what we are looking at mainly is the subscriber level, right? We're looking at how many SIMs we sell, how many mobile numbers we have, penetration and all that. But with broadband coming in and also with the start of digital finance, mobile banking. So the mobile usage, mobile identity actually becomes a lot more critical to the growth of the country. So before that, then we will look at customer level. Now we look at individual. One individual may have more than 1 SIM, 2 SIM, 3 SIMs, right? And now with the correct identity, we can do a lot more with them or with each person. And with broadband that we have, we can look at everyone at the household level. So we're going to look to service people more as an individual and also look to service them more as a family, right? I think with this scope, there are a lot more things that we can do, a lot more services we can bring to them, right, that as I mentioned, we can never keep increasing prices and people will be happy. It's more if we can do more things for you as a customer, right? You actually have a lot more money to spend on other things. You don't have to spend with us right now. But in the future, you may prefer to spend those money with us. So that's something that we will bring to the level of -- or the varieties of services that we're going to offer. I think as you saw from last year, we're starting to break the previous, I would say, additional service into a BAU, so that we have more focus on first product development. We can't keep selling the same old stuff, right, because there are other providers out there that they keep reinventing the product and services. So once when we set that up, we have a lot more focus, a lot more resources, a lot more concentration to develop each of the product that we're going to service to the customer. That also includes, I think, the points and privileges, right, the loyalty system, the content, you saw already how many contents that we add on. We are focusing more on the device portion as well. So that's why we have Khun Patrick here. He's going to be maybe selling you a lot more devices and gadgets and accessories. I'm not sure whether he bring any free sample today. No, not today. Okay. And I think as I mentioned, fiber is just a start of what we can service at home, right? So once when we have right now the biggest market share in the whole country, more than 5.2 million, 5.3 million households. There are a lot more that we can do with our current existing customers. Not bearing that we are not growing. We are actually trying to grow the port even larger? And how do we do that? In the past, I think the bundling is mainly promotion discount. In the future, hopefully, you're going to see we bundle in a bit different way. We're going to tie into services, customer experience and sometimes the -- even the product itself, the service itself could be very different if you use 2 or 3 of those products from the same operator. There's a way that we can actually give you better latency right, better privileges in each of the product group itself before you lump it to the class of the customer level, right? So I think that's one of the way that we try to do when we add more services, smart home, cloud or even AI. That's something that can create more value in the future. I think nowadays, everyone maybe from the research that we saw use ChatGPT a lot. Actually, I think I talked to ChatGPT more than I talked to my wife and vice versa for her as well. She also complain you always come home late, and she also said, don't talk to me. So ChatGPT is my best happy right now. So anyway, that aside, opportunity to do cross-selling -- it's actually a lot more, right? We try to tell you that we know we need to do cross-selling. But in the past, we haven't been very successful at that. But from now on, I think the focus is there. We're also changing a bit of the KPI, restructure organization so that we can actually do a lot more cross-selling. And we're also looking at different ways to package the services together. That's something that will about to come from this year onwards. I can't review too much because otherwise, it won't be a surprise. But hopefully, you will see a simpler package arrangement that you see basic and you see standard and premium, and that's going to go across different BAUs. And once you try to combine those will be easier. Right now, when we visit shops in many, many regions, we go and look at the pamphlets that we try to explain to customers what products packages that we have. It's actually quite confusing in a way, right? So we try to change that, the way to communicate the way to structure it and for people to really see the value that they can get if they subscribe to more services with us, right? So that's something that hopefully will change the mindset of consumers. And also in the past, our connectivity is a bit generic. We only sell on speed, either speed or quota of some sort. So in the future, hopefully, there are some other features and functions that we can actually offer to different segment of the consumers, right? This is basic marketing 101, know your customer, but because somehow our product is so generic in the past, we cannot make the customer feel the different -- differentiation. So from now on, we're going to try to pack it in different layers. Connectivity is one layer. If you link to other services, you link to device and in the end, different customer experience, right? So that really changed the core how we do the business. So I think in the conference call that we had earlier, a lot of people ask, if we spend more on IT, how do we justify or project the revenue increase. To me, it's a bit deeper than that. We're actually changing the way we look at how we do business with the consumers, right? So I can't do a one-to-one that, oh, I do the system so that I can sell more of this. It's more like we try to reinvent ourselves. Our IT system has to first go across different BAUs, right? The way we're going to interact with consumers have to be very different from before. In order to scale quickly, the more they can do self-service is the better. Otherwise, we need to bother you to come to our shop or we need to ask you to call into the call center. And once when you don't get to talk to the real person, you complain, right? So in the end, we'll try to change the way we interact with consumer as well. That's why this one is also the touch point also need to be revamped, right? With AI technology right now, a lot of things can be automated. But in the end, we need to make sure that it works. Otherwise, it's also a double-edged sword. And that's -- if you think of that, the backbone need to change. The fund system also have to change, right? It has to be faster, smarter at the shop. People still visit our shops a lot. But in order to be able to serve them the right way, show them the right product and close the transaction quickly before they get bored and walk out of the shops. So that's something we have to change, and Patrick has a big target to hit, not only the value of the device sales, but also the satisfaction of the customer and also the reason why we want people to come to our shop, right? So that's one of his task. Digital channel is something that to me is really important in today's world, right? A lot of people -- I think a lot of people in this room stay up late still maybe want to buy something then scroll went through certain website, certain apps. It's almost 24 hour selling, right? So that's something we also need to really be good at, right? Our competitors are good at that already because they have other businesses that require such capability. But I think for us, we will fix this, right? Telco channel is still important. Right now, we still acquire majority of our customers from the current telco channel. But it doesn't mean that the current version is already best for the future. So we are putting in AI behind. We are putting in the new marketing message or the new product and services behind so that our telco channel can sell more to customers. right? The last 2 things, hopefully, it can help convince customers to spend with us more or we offer the right thing to them. So AI will help with this hyperpersonalization because in the past, it's more rule-based and we segregate people or consumer in 2 different groups. With AI, there's a dynamic adjustment that we can do along the way. And we can optimize the offering for a much smaller size people, right? So that's something that we're going to be working on a lot. And also the point systems. In the past, that's one of the strong aspect of our ecosystem. But when you compare to other retailers or other groups that may have big spending among the group companies, we may be smaller than them. So we need to fix that part as well. The team just want to show that after we fix what we call myAIS 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, there are already some positive signal. So we can use this to do some of the service. Like I said, if people can do self-service, then it's the cheapest, lowest cost and probably the fastest way for people to get what they want. So the call -- number of calls that come into the call center dropped quite a fair bit. We do also sell a lot more products or packages to some of the target customers and also the engagement level was higher, right? This is to show that the trend is there that we are on the right path. And this is what we mentioned earlier, from just normal personalization that we try to do with a few segments of people, now we can do a much wider, a much deeper analysis to each group of people, right? And then because of the loyalty scheme that we hopefully can improve on that when we can capitalize on the vast network that we have. We already built a lot of network that people can redeem those points. And then when they use more, then everything should be within the group even more. And I think everyone knows this, if consumer or customer use one product, then it's one level ARPU. When they use more, it's higher. Whether this is going to continue to be 2x and almost 3x, that depends. We shall see. The hard part of this is you see a lot of people doing one product because mainly it's still on the subscriber level, two product sometimes it's still mixing between subscriber versus individual versus household, right? So that's why it's a little bit hard to group. And I think later on, you may ask what is the proportion target that we want to have. It's a bit tough that way, but we want to move people from 1 product to 2 and to 3, right? Because I think in your home, maybe 5 people, but you only need 1 broadband account. So it won't be that everyone can do 2. But the rest probably they can do if you have a teenage son, maybe want to play games or maybe you yourself want to subscribe the AIS Play to watch football, right? So that's something that each person can have different product holdings, but as a household also. So that's something we're going to be looking at and find ways to service them more. Okay. That's a quick stop. I think next, we'll ask Khun Phupa to help walk you through the B2B thinking that we try to make happen.

Good afternoon, everyone. I hope that this -- my session will be the easiest sessions when talking about the car and digital adoption in Thailand. So basically, I have been instructed by Khun Seeum that, spend a lot of time to give the example to ensure that we can communicate the directions and the way that we think about growing the digital and IT infra business to all of you, then don't hesitate to stop me to ask the questions, then give me opportunity to answer and clarify all the questions that you have. I would like to take, let's say, a few slides to explain to you what is the plan and strategy that we think about growing the digital and AI infrastructure. First of all, this slide, I need to let you know to understand the background, how we see the business. If you look at the way that you use as a consumer of the cloud or digital business, you take the picture every day, right? And that picture will be uploading to, let's say, iCloud or some storage on the cloud. But when was the last time that you delete the picture that you upload to. Basically, what I'm saying is that the people tend to use more and more digital content, use a lot more IT content or storage infrastructure than they think. Because of that behavior is not just only stick with you as a consumer, but when you go to the company or your enterprise, right? You ask yourself when was the last time that you delete file on your file server. It's almost never, right? So that means basically, people tend -- when they use the digital infrastructure, they tend to use more and more and tend not to delete all the data that they have. This kind of behavior we observe and we see the growth of the infrastructure, especially when the country -- or we have the crisis, just if I took the example of the COVID-19, everyone invests more, even though the business is not good, but everyone invests more in the technology to allow all the people able to video conference to do the business, right? And even though when we talk about the labor issue challenge, it's obvious, you can see that most of the budget of the company spend is spent to the digital technology, is spent to the cloud, data center and all the IT stuff, right? And if -- when I look at the trend of my research to the customer, they will have the list of the projects that they will do this year or maybe next year already. And all of those projects, none of them not related to the IT. So that's I want to give you the background how the IT and digital infrastructure relating into our plan today. So this is a trend that we see. The second one, we see the new establishment of the data center. If you look at the trend, most of number -- I will cover this in the detail in the next slide. You will see that the BOI approved the numbers of the data center in the pipeline. That mean data center or the demand is coming to Thailand. Maybe it is because of we have power, we have enough of the water to cooling system when using the data center, they need water to, actually, to cool it down. We have land, we have the support regulations to build that kind of thing. Then we have been watching on the cloud first policy. I think all of you know that if you ask the ChatGPT, we will say cloud first, we say blah, blah, blah, right? But the way that I see is that in government, when compare government sector with the commercial sector, government cloud adoption is not as fast as the commercial sector. And that's why everyone put a lot of hope in the cloud first policy. So believe that everyone and all of the government will adopt cloud faster, right? Then if you look on the over-the-top like hyperscaler or the big technology from the news, you will see that they're starting to interest in Thailand, in our country. They start -- you see the news about the collaboration agreement, partnership, everything, right? Then that means we see the trend of data flowing around the globe. For example, if you're coming from India or Europe, the data normally go not past Thailand, but it's go down to Singapore and then come back to Philippines, Malaysia or go to Japan and connect to the America, right? And we see the trend that is better and faster to go to the southern part of Thailand and across...

It's not like you [indiscernible].

Then you will see that we see the trend that they find the shortcut instead of go via Singapore, they just go to the [ Satun ] and on the left-hand side of Thailand, right, and cross that like [indiscernible] or some part of south and go to the [indiscernible] and go to Philippines and Japan, I think. And not mentioned about the AI adoption. I think everyone now use AI, not as a consumer, but even in the company or the Board of Directors ask the management to adopt AI, right? So that's how I see. On the market growth on the EDS connectivity, I think the chart is explain themselves, right, the CAGR 5.7% and the Cloud & DC growth around [ 20%.] So this is how we look at the business -- look at the market and growth assumptions. Then when we connect all the story together, we still strongly believe that being the digital and cloud AI infrastructure company is the right approach and the right direction for the company because everyone, every company need to use at least one-off service that we have. You -- in order for the company to use the software or develop the software, they need connectivity network. They need data center, they need cloud, they need software that we sell. They need implementation service and installation service that we provide. So that's how we see our business and how we understand the market. Then when I look at the data center, I zoom in from the first slide. As of now, at end of the FY '25, last year, we see a number of data center is almost 60, right? But the BOI has approved in the pipeline of the upcoming data center, it will be more 30, 40 in a few years from now. So that means the demand is coming for sure, right? The data center business will grow. If the data center business will grow, that means the connectivity will grow as well because each data center needs the connection communication between the data center and outside data center to the consumer as well, right? We also have the business that we call the IPLC. This is like -- as if you remember last time, we forecast to be a hub of our neighbor, right? So we invest a lot and focus to make the Thailand to -- I mean, our company to be a hub of neighbor, right? Then that is another strategy that we want to grow the business in this way. Then we expect that the traffic will grow 20% to 30%. This is a traffic, not the revenue. This is traffic, right, then the next one, I think about the 5G. 5G here is different from 5G that you are using today. The 5G in my angle is the 5G that used in the enterprise in the manufacturing. I will have a video for you, right, to explain how our customers adopt 5G, which we call the private network -- 5G private network. As I ever mentioned about the robotic arms that needs very fast network to control the robotic arms. Some of the drone that autonomous drone that can fly without the human control. That kind of thing require very fast network, to operate it. Otherwise, it won't function or it will crash with something. So without any further explanations, let me play the video. One of our customers and this one is going to the second phase already, how they adopt the 5G private network. [Presentation]

If you noticed that in my presentation last year, I also mentioned about SCG, right? The reason why I bring this back again is because of this is the second phase. What does it mean for the second phase? That mean they see the value of adopting 5G private network is return something to them, then they expand to the second phase. So in terms of the 5G spectrum utilization, I think we answered the investor that, okay, this is how we really use or utilize, monetize the 5G. And this is, I mean, the outcome for our customer. And if you see the picture in the previous [Foreign Language] not only the SCG, we have numbers of the customers who adopt the 5G private network in the enterprise in their factory as well. Okay. I think this is almost the last slide. We also have the cloud business as well, not just only 5G and data center. We also have the cloud and we partner with many different technology partners, including Microsoft, Google, AWS, Huawei, and also have planned that has been implemented since last year to build the Sovereign Cloud. What does it mean when we talk about the Sovereign Cloud? It means the cloud that under Thai laws is controlled by Thai and 100% comply with all the requirement or regulatory aspect in Thailand. The way that we see when we use the cloud or public cloud in another countries, if you look at the agreement, most of the agreement when we have the issue with the law, they will refer to the Singapore law. But when we talk about the Sovereign Cloud, that means everything under Thai Law controlled by Thai Law in Thai baht. That is a key differentiation or different when we talk about the Sovereign Cloud. The brand that we use for the Sovereign Cloud is the AIS Cloud that we launched mid of last year. I think on the GSA pipeline megawatt, I think the chart explains itself and you see the news about the movement of the GSA01, 02 and 03. What I can tell is that the way that we do the business, you look at the data center as a condominium. Normally, we don't build the condominium in this case, right, without secure the customer. So that means we secure our customer first to ensure that the number of the customer or revenue up to the certain level before we decide to build the things. We're not build the plain data center and hope that the demand will come and someone will rent out the data center. That is not the way that we do the business. We do the business with very careful step in the invest. So that's why we need to secure the customer first, I think. I think that's the last slide. Thank you very much.

Yes. So now we have the last session from Khun Tee, Investment For Future Growth.

Hello, again. For someone who just woke up, this is not a deja vu. We move to the last section now.

Can we pause a bit [indiscernible].

Okay. It's a deja vu. Okay, last section. So basically, I think with some of the announcement on special dividend and also the dividend payout that we keep raising. I think the last few years, I think a lot of people try to ask us about what's the principle -- what's the principle that we try to adhere to for the next few years? So we just try to reiterate that we believe that with the growth profile or the growth opportunity that we are looking at. So hopefully, we can still grow both the revenue and also earnings. right? I think the last 2, 3 years, the earnings growth is quite high and partly because there's a change in the cost structure, a change in the industry itself. But going forward, it's going to be more organic growth on the earnings. First thing we try to give you a bit of our commitment is we'll have a discipline in the investment. That's coming on 2 sides. One is also we're going to invest in whatever required for us to be competitive in the market, right? So I think we are committed to that. We're going to be delivering you the best network, the best service. right? And also, second, we'll be disciplined with it, meaning we are not going to invest crazy without any specific return in mind, right? So that's what we can give to you. Earning conversion, we still believe that with the growth profile that we're looking at, with the customer base that we have, with the new services that we are working with the team right now, earning can still grow, right? We can leverage on maybe more optimization, more efficiency, right, newer platform. That's something that we believe eventually, it will come down to earnings as well. And when we focus on growth, we focus on certain segments, certain businesses that we believe can deliver higher value customers to us. So that's something that we will continue for the next few years. And a lot of people ask about CapEx target always all the time. It's also hard to give you what number in what year. Always in the past, as you see, it's a cycle of high investment, then become low investment. And -- but on average, I think when we look going forward, the next 2, 3 years, we do believe that it's going to be plus/minus around 15% of revenue. In the past, when we had to ramp up 4G investment because of the late spectrum auction, then we went up very high because we need to cover the whole country within 2 years. 5G investment because our country is part of the early adopter of 5G. So in the beginning, we invest a bit, but it phases over a few years. The hard part was the return to get the real return out from that. That's why if you match that with the earning in the past, competition in the market as well. So after that, then we had a very good 2 years that we can lower investment because we pre-invest earlier. Now I think it's a time that because industry consolidate, our competitor also had an integration on their network. So they got some of the new equipment as well. And that's why we also want to make sure we have the best network in the country, right? And we're also expanding a lot on broadband as well. So that's why we do believe that roughly around 15% is going to be something that we manage in the next few years. On top of that, like I mentioned, because we try to change the way we interact with customers, we changed a bit of the business model of the whole company from each BAU, now we try to join together. So the backbone, the IT, the digital platform will have to be modernized. So those are the part that we try to invest and also make sure that we get return on. I think lastly, on some of the new ventures that we started with some of the partners. Hopefully, I think all the 3 areas that we invest in will give us meaningful return in 3 years' time. As you can see, we're going to be spending roughly around TWD 8 billion to TWD 10 billion. That's our own portion, right from below the virtual bank. So starting hopefully later this year. And then within 5 years, it's going to be out from -- to be second phase from BOT time line. And those are the kind of capital requirement from the regulation. GSA is the next one that we also have invested in you saw the progress. So -- but in the beginning, because it's a ramp-up period and it stacker new project on top of the old ones. So we'll see -- I think the earnings will slowly come in the end because the initial years of the new project, we may not get a big return, but because it's staggered over time. So I think once we past 3 years, then it will be meaningful earnings. Same thing with GAIS that we set up to really focus on growing the cloud business. And this is more of an illustrative that typically all new investment, the first few years, it can drag a little bit, and then it will give you -- give us positive earnings after maybe 3 years. But the first 2, 3 years is still manageable. It's still not significant in terms of negative contribution that we're going to have on our business, our core business. This is also more of a trend rather than don't try to measure the angle and then put the dot and all that and no need to put this to AI and ask what the future value would be. Basically, I think ROIC, as we believe that we can still grow the earnings and we optimize the balance sheet. So it's going to be in the high teens for ROIC. EBITDA because we have improved EBITDA margin over the past few years. Going forward, with the new investment that we are doing with the way that we kind of reset ourselves for the new business model and all that, we believe that we can maintain a flat margin, right? And then net debt to EBITDA is going to jump a bit this year. But then over the next 2 and 3 years, it's going to be on a deleveraging trend again. I think we're getting to the last 2 slides. So basically, I want to show the commitment and the thinking. We'll make sure that, first and foremost, we have sufficient money and resources to fund the growth that we are talking about. So there's no question, no issue. Spectrum and everything, we think we have enough, right? And second, we value the strength of our balance sheet, right? So rest assured that we will not leverage up to the level that it's going to trade the long-term competitiveness, long-term funding options to the point where we risk ourselves too much. And lastly, we still believe in giving sufficient return to shareholders. So I can't give you exactly -- you're going to ask me later on, what is the payout ratio for this year and next year. We commit to a high payout ratio for sure. But depending on the situation in this year, I think we still have spectrum coming. A lot of people are worried with the change of the shareholder structure on the other side, how will that impact the market dynamics. That's still to be seen. But we do believe that it's still on a positive trend, right? And because it's an important message, so the team put it 2 slides for me to tell you 2 times that we do commit to this, and we think a lot about this. So core business, fully funded for sure. We have enough money to fund future growth. Like we mentioned, roughly, we think about 15% as a kind of guideline there. Spectrum, we want to maintain leadership in this business and Spectrum is something that we will invest in, right? Investment, first and foremost, we think we pick the right partner in each of the areas. So we have the strong partners for us to work with and the funding for all this, we also can cover. So no issue there. Commitment to strong balance sheet as usual. We still commit to investment grade. And even with this special payout, it doesn't move us over the criteria of the rating agencies, right? And lastly, as mentioned, we also want to make sure our shareholders are happy. A lot of retail investors also looking at our dividend as part of their income. And that's something that we really want to maintain the yield going forward. And I think that's all we have for you.