Amplitude, Inc. (AMPL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon. Thank you, everyone, for joining us at the Morgan Stanley TMT Conference. My name is Elizabeth Porter. I'm an analyst on the U.S. Software Equity Research team. And we are really excited to have with us today: Amplitude's CEO, Spenser Skates; and CFO, Andrew Casey. We are going to take audience Q&A at the end, so mic will go around. Before we start, for important disclosures, please see the Morgan Stanley research disclosure website at www.morganstanley.com/researchdisclosures. And with that, Spenser, Andrew, thank you so much.

Awesome. Great to be here, Elizabeth.

Hi Elizabeth.

Great. So Spenser, you described 2025 as the year of the Amplitude platform. I think it would be great to start off for those that might not be as familiar with the story, just how the product portfolio has evolved to that platform status. What were the key problems that you solved for clients? And how has that scope expanded more recently?

Yes. So for those of you who don't know Amplitude, what we do is Digital Analytics. So we help our customers understand what their end users are doing in their websites and apps, what they're using, where they're getting stuck, what keeps them coming back and being that system of record for the digital customer journey. We started out in Analytics when we founded the company many years ago. And since then, we've added a number of capabilities over the last few years. So we added Experimentation in 2021. We added Activation in 2022. Last year, we added Session Replay. And then most recently, a few weeks ago, we added Guides and Surveys. So Experimentations is like A/B test, it allows you to run different variations of your website for your customers to see what performs better. Activation allows you to target your customers based on different behaviors. So if someone is -- has some items in their shopping cart and they haven't checked out yet, maybe you send them a notification. Session Replay allows you to view qualitatively what your users interacted with and Guides and Surveys allows you to guide your users through the experience. So proactive notifications within the application experience that can kind of guide you to the right place. And so with those capabilities, we have -- we now have all the core set of point solutions that someone who's running the digital product needs in order to make -- that you'd want to leverage off of that same data set to make your end user successful. And that's great because now there's kind of no reason for anyone to go with any of those kind of smaller point products over Amplitude. The exciting part is we're actually seeing -- so most SaaS companies between $100 million and $1 billion, the big story is, "Hey, how do you add things to the product portfolio and consolidate the rest of the market?" What's really interesting in our case is that we've seen a much, much greater pull than we expected and I think most SaaS companies see for the desire for consolidation in that it's not just a cost play where it's like, "Hey, you can get rid of a bunch of vendors and go to one." It's actually the data that's a really big deal. And so the Experimentation, Session Replay, Guidance Survey, all of those products are much, much better if you have that same analytics data powering them. And so we -- if you guys saw our earnings call 2 weeks ago, what was it last week? Okay.

Yes.

Yes, yes. So 2 weeks ago, one of the great things that we showed was that you can actually detect when a user is confused in the application experience and send a custom intervention then -- to them then. Whereas most Guides and Surveys products, one of the biggest problems they have is they don't know when to actually send a -- trigger a notification to the user. So they end up spamming everyone with every notification. I'm sure you guys have seen websites that you've been on where you get what we call a pop-up party and you kind of get lots of notifications telling you lots of different things. And so that's kind of a small example of how the analytics -- having the analytics data makes the Guides and Surveys product more valuable. So because of that, we're seeing a lot of demand for that consolidation from the market.

Great. And I do want to dig into the products. I think a lot of this all makes sense, putting it around the user behavior data that you guys have collected. But before we get into that, there have been multiple leadership changes around the organization. So first, with Andrew, now that you've been in the CEO seat for a couple of quarters, it'd be great to get your perspective on some of the areas that you're prioritizing as CFO. And then second, for Spenser, we've seen a new Chief Product Officer. We've seen a new Chief Engineering Officer. Just what do these individuals bring? And how is this setting up Amplitude for kind of the next stage of growth?

So first and foremost, when I spoke -- talked to Spenser about the opportunity, it was one of the situations where I was able to really look at the composition of the team, the products, the opportunity they're going after, and it made a lot of sense. It was very reminiscent of my early days at ServiceNow, like I was just down listening to Bill, and he was talking about how you're bringing teams together, you're bringing the organization together, you're automating workflows. And some of the first things I noticed when I joined Amplitude is that Spenser has done a good job of setting the tone at the top about what are the things we are focused on, but it hadn't really cascaded down through business processes and focus. And it's very typical of a company that's been built through COVID that you have a lot of silos, independence of how they were working. And so one of the first things I did was we put a plan in place, a long-term plan and we started aligning the teams. And the budget targets I was setting for the teams were -- they had to make trade-offs. They had to interlock with someone. They had to effectively work together to prioritize what we were doing from a product set, where we were investing in go-to-market, how we were changing our business processes. And this focus came very clear from Thomas and Spenser that we were moving into the Enterprise. And so there's a lot of instrumentation and frameworks and business processes you need to put in place in order to really instrument your business to go after the Enterprise. The products had to be there. But in order to instrument your business to go take advantage of it, there still was a lot of work to do. And not to say we're done, but we pulled a lot of those levers, and we're starting to see some benefits from it.

So it'd also be great to touch on the demand environment. In Q4, you guys noted that churn rates had started to stabilize. So some of the worst of the churn from the COVID-related cohorts was behind us. Can you just help us unpack what we're seeing from the demand environment today? And maybe how some of those trends differ from what you're seeing in this Enterprise segment versus the low end of the customer base? And I don't want to get ahead of ourselves, but now that we have churn starting to stabilize, when can we start to have conversations around more of that expansion activity?

So what we've seen, there's 2 different parts on the churn front. One is larger customers that were rightsizing their contracts and that had overbought from 2021 and 2022. And we have gotten through the vast majority of those contracts at this point. And so we saw that. That was a significant headwind to the business that showed up in the biggest way last year in 2024. But now that we're through that, we see that the removal of that is a tailwind for the growth of the business, which is fantastic. The other is the contracts on the SMB side, so particularly smaller companies, tech start-ups, non-enterprises, and that remains -- continues to remain quite high churn. And so there's more work we have to do there to reduce that. The other thing strategically is we're just going to continue to move upmarket more to the enterprise. And so get away from the smaller companies making less and less of a percentage of our revenue base and just continue to focus on the enterprise motion. So that naturally, we see those both from a gross and net retention standpoint, perform way significantly 10, 15 points better. And so as more of our business looks like that, that will naturally show up in the retention rates, which will obviously then translate to growth rates.

Maybe just to add on to that a little bit. You got to understand, historically, Analytics was our core product, the only product.

Correct. Yes.

So many of the customers that have churned it, there are certainly those issues of capacity, but there's also this notion of that we're appealing more to that larger company that's got multiple different solutions in place. As we're driving that multiproduct sales model, you start to see customers who are viewing Amplitude, not just the core analytics and insights area, but it's the core to their business operations and how they're engaging with their clients. So the gross retention rates, the net retention rates, the expansion capabilities are much higher with those companies. And so that whole process is happening. Now if we didn't do that, you couldn't then go and have the go-to-market changes that we did on the sales process and how we're actually appealing to customers in a value for the money strategy to actually supplant installed customer base or the installed competitors that are out there. And so all those things are starting to work in our favor. We made investments in enterprise go-to-market in the beginning of '24. Sales cycles are what they are in the enterprise, it takes a little while for those things to come through. But Q4 showed that we landed with many, many more enterprise clients. And for the first time in '24, we saw a good balance between new logo and expansions.

Yes. Q4 was great in terms of we had a record number of enterprise new lands, which is fantastic to see. Elizabeth, I realize I forgot to answer the part on the team earlier. I wanted to hit on that. A lot of new folks here. I want to hit on that, [ just want them to ] understand, so.

I wasn't going to hold you to it if you didn't.

No, no. Very happy to talk about it. Yes. So look, frankly, we -- when we took the company public, I made the mistake of having, frankly, too immature of a management team. And so there was no one who reported to me who had been through that journey before. And so that made it very challenging to set up the business for success at that new level of scale. In contrast to today, can I fast forward 3 years later and every single person on the management team has seen the journey before and is equipped to help Amplitude grow from where we are at today at $300 million in ARR to $1 billion. The 2 folks that you called out that I want to talk briefly about, one is Francois, our Chief Product Officer, who came from Tableau and saw the journey of that business from very early on. I think they were just less than $50 million in revenue to multiple billions through the acquisition of Salesforce, and he's been fantastic because Tableau has been, in a lot of ways, the inspiration on data-driven, helping teams become data-driven and self-service in data and analytics. And then Wade, our Chief Engineering Officer, who's done this journey, and it's probably honestly the single -- has been an adviser to Amplitude for many years. He's done this journey many times as part of companies he's been a part of. And then I think the other part that's outstanding about him, I mean, he's been -- he's helped me navigate over the last 8 years as an adviser, how to scale the engineering team and how do you keep innovation up as you get a large volume scale. He was actually an engineering leader at NetScape very, very long time ago. And so I'm just tremendously appreciative to get his wisdom as part of helping us scale. And so now with the team that we have, now it's all about execution on this journey. So how do we get from $300 million to $1 billion and all the different parts that come with that. So going to this whole product portfolio and platform from the single analytics product that we had, how do we continue to push upmarket more into the enterprise. There's a very, very different sales set of salespeople and capabilities, and we've been evolving that with Thomas, our President and other folks coming in. And then just how do you continue to get more efficient and leverage that scale. And so, now we've got a great team. And so I'm very, very excited about how we're going to be executing over the next few years.

Great. Yes, it sounds like we have not just the new team, but also just the portfolio of Amplitude, as you mentioned, looks a lot different today.

Yes.

If you think back a couple of years, the way you've expanded was putting more data through Analytics. And it wasn't until just last year, you had Session Replay, you had Web Experimentation. So just give us a little bit of context for how many customers today are multiproduct customers. And clearly, you're landing with more of these multiproduct adoptions. But how do you actually go back into the existing base and help drive some of that motion?

Yes. So that was actually one of the biggest misses that we've had so far in multiproduct. We've actually done a good job of new enterprise customers coming in and adopting the suite last. What was the stat we shared in last quarter? It was like 2/3, right?

75% of our customers are still not on multiproduct. But the other stat that's really important to note is that 50% of our ARR is now multiproduct.

The one -- no, 2/3 of our new enterprise lands were multiproduct.

Yes.

So 2/3 -- so we've been able to get that motion dialed in quite well on new lands, and that's been fantastic to see. The problem is -- we didn't incentivize the sales team to do that on renewals with the rest of our customer base. So we've now put in place incentives and a focus on how do we drive multiproduct adoption among the rest of our customer base when they come up for those renewal conversations. Actually -- and the biggest challenge for that, frankly, is awareness. Like a lot of these companies don't even know that we offer these capabilities, and they want them. They want them integrated. I haven't talked to a single -- like I've talked to hundreds of executives in the last year, both customers and prospects, and they all want these products to work together in one. And there's not a single one that isn't interested in getting that from Amplitude, whether it be Experimentation, whether it be Session Replay or whether it be something else. And so -- now that we have the whole platform, now the focus is like, okay, how do we make sure that all of them -- our entire renewal base, not just new customers are aware of all the offerings that we have.

And maybe just to add, I think that when you go to market in an enterprise focus, yes, incentives is part of it. But it's also about how you do your segmentation on your customers, how you do your targeting on your demand campaigns, how you make sure that accountability flows through to the sales process and steps. You're inspecting the progress on those things regularly to make sure that you're holding a high bar and expectations. And frankly, you put a floor under which those sales reps who may have been used to selling to SMB mid-market with fast sales cycles and well, you actually aren't going to retire quota by going after those customers. You were raising the bar. You have to go after these enterprise customers you're focusing. So it's -- I want to say that we've pulled a lot of levers at instrumenting how we're going to go build our enterprise business, and it's starting to accrue in the right way.

And any way to sketch out for us what that starts to look like as those customers adopt some of the broader platform? What's the uplift that you see in a typical ARR basis on a contract?

So I'd say once you're on the platform, you're somewhere between 2x to 3x what you'd be just in the analytics. Any individual product -- one of the things we've shared is any individual product, like if you add on, say, a Session Replay, maybe that will be a 50% uplift, maybe Experimentation will be a 30% uplift. But what we've seen is once you're on the whole platform, you're willing to pay significantly more than what you are just being on the Analytics piece.

Yes. We had one of the customers on the earnings call, TheFork, we talked about -- they started with a very simple analytics implementation was a little over $100,000. Now they're over $700,000 because they've incorporated multiple products within and displaced a number of other competitors that they were using Fork (sic) [ TheFork ]. And the pain they had was trying to integrate all these different systems and drive the right insights at speed and they looked at our platform, our ability to do that in a consolidated way, and it was a savings for them. So it was a savings in not only licensing costs, but also total cost of ownership and they were getting the right insights.

And by the way, that's very typical. Like let's say, you're paying $300,000 for Analytics, you're paying another $300,000 for Session Replay, you're paying another $300,000 for Experimentation, paying another similar amount for Guides and Surveys. We can say, "Hey, we'll consolidate all, we'll charge you twice as much -- twice as much as -- or 3x as much, you're going to get much lower total cost of ownership. And more exciting part, you get the benefits of the platform being integrated." So it's a very, very compelling play.

And if you do believe that every business is increasingly integrating more and more data as they're engaging with their clients in different ways, suddenly, we give them a very seamless way to unlock those capabilities because now it's all in one spot, where before it was painful to do those things, but if you get it all integrated into Amplitude, you can scale effectively.

Yes. No, I think that's important that it's not just about displacing somebody else's spend going on the platform, but the time and the value of the insights when you're actually putting these pieces together with the same database.

That's right.

So one of your strategies that you've spoken to a lot is win simple and win in the enterprise. And so kind of the question is, where are you developing a more efficient way to serve the low end yet still being able to maintain that investment in the high end? So first, just maybe focusing on the low end. Can you speak a little bit about the Plus plan and the Amplitude Made Easy and how that's allowed you to access a broader base of users while still actually increasing engagements?

Yes. So what we did last year was we came out with -- or sorry, 1.5 years ago at this point, was we came out with our Plus plan that allowed people to sign up for Amplitude without having to talk to a salesperson. So you can put it in your credit card, just use it, get going right away and had a much -- in addition to that, we had a much lower entry price point. So we can start off at $50 a month instead of having to commit to $30,000 a year annual contract with us. That was great because that allowed -- that kind of unleashed a lot of customers who are using our free plan and wanted some more of our advanced capabilities to allow them to start right away. What then we did was we took the -- a lot of the salespeople who have been focusing on that lower-end segment, and we moved them upmarket. So we now went from an SMB team to creating what we call the Velocity business, which is more of a mid-market team focused on larger deals. And so I think about this, hey, automate the low end so that you can put the expensive human-heavy resources on the much higher LTV enterprise contracts at the high end. The other change that we made in furtherance of that last year, which helped kind of both low-end customers as well as enterprise customers was Amplitude Made Easy, which was the launch of our new way to set up Amplitude to allow you to get the value out of it from only doing a single line of code. And so instead of having to get a little bit technical with Amplitude implementation before, you'd have to put a line of code wherever you want to track an event. And so for a typical implementation, you might be looking at 50, 100 lines of codes to start out. Now you can do only one line of code, and that was a really big deal. And now we actually see a majority of our enterprise customers adopting that same motion. I got a review last week where I saw more than half of our new enterprise customers are now using this one line of code and everything that comes with it. That means you're automatically capturing clicks and events without having to instrument multiple lines of code. You're getting the rest of the products bundled in together, and those implementation times are much, much, much shorter. And so that was a kind of example of something that started out focused on the low end, but has benefited all of our customers. I think one of the beliefs that we have is that the getting started with data is too difficult today. Like all companies have the desire to understand their users and improve their digital product as a result. The problem is it's too difficult to do so. A lot of these teams try to build this in-house and hire armies of data scientists. And what they found is that process is not scalable. So how can we make Amplitude a much faster, easier alternative to the process of getting access to that data.

Great. And on the high end of the side, you've talked about this a little bit already, but whether it's changing the kind of the commissions, kind of moving some bodies over. But in Q4, you just noted that you actually had a record number of enterprise kind of new logos. So how would you characterize the ramp of the enterprise sales force capacity today? And how should we think about the impact of the go-to-market changes that you've been making as we go through 2025, particularly with the new strategic enterprise account teams?

Yes. So we've hired -- from a total investment envelope, we've hired everyone we've needed to be able to go after the enterprise opportunity as of kind of the end of last year. So we've kind of gotten the team in place. It's not like we need to increase the total amount that we're spending. Now there's still places we'd like to upgrade in terms of managers or individuals in the team that we think are better suited for the enterprise opportunity, but we've kind of made the total investment that we need to. The other change that we did that you mentioned was we created a new strategic account segment, which is our top 30 customers and that get a much, much higher touch service. And so those are customers who are spending millions of dollars with us a year and that we want to make sure that they have a -- get great value out of Amplitude and we're building great relationships with them so that we're set up well for the long term and that we don't get into the situations where the value is very disconnected from what they're paying and then you end up getting a lot of the recess that we saw last year. So we're kind of -- and the last thing I'll say on that is that this kind of moving upmarket more to the enterprise, this is like a multiyear journey where you're always incrementally up-leveling the sales force. Like this year, we did the strategic segment. Last year, we did the change where we moved folks out of SMB into the Velocity business. We'll continue to go more in that direction over time. So it's not a done thing, but we have the core of the team that we need today to make the enterprise motion successful.

Okay. And one of the things we've spoken about earlier is just the fact that you guys have one of the largest repositories of digital user behavior. So can you talk to us a bit about how that positions the company to capitalize well on agentic computing? I know you recently launched Amplitude Agent or you're going to sometime in the second part of the -- half of the year. So what use cases like does that agent functionality actually start to look like? What does it accomplish? And any reason on kind of what the product and monetization strategy could look like there?

So the core problem with this data is that it's very large, and you have to have a human manually go through all of it. The typical customer [ at ] us will be tracking somewhere on the order of 1 billion data points. And there's a lot of complexity. So those -- within a product, you have thousands of different actions the end user can take, right? Product surface areas are very big. And then you have millions of users, right, that are navigating through them in different sort of ways. And so you're going to be tracking billions of data points. And the question is, how can you extract insight about what's going on in the user journey. The problem is that a typical team is only looking at maybe 5%, maybe 10% of that on a daily basis to understand what's going on. And there's this whole rest of the data, 90% that's not -- where humans are not looking at or understanding what's going on, but it's incredibly rich in terms of its ability to help you understand what people want and they don't within an app. And so what we're doing when we come out with Amplitude Agent is we're going to help automate a whole bunch of that process. So we're -- one of the things AI, one of the great use cases that AI has demonstrated is the ability to summarize large quantities of information and pack it up in much smaller ways. And so that's actually something we're really excited about where AI can extract the insight from that other 90%, 95% of the data that you're not even looking at on a daily basis and feed those insights to you automatically. And so we're going to be launching an Amplitude Agent along those lines in the second half of the year, and we're going to be charging for it. We actually have a belief that it's going to provide a huge amount of value. We actually demoed an early version of it to our Customer Advisory Board a few weeks ago, and that was by far the place that people were most excited about. The last thing I'll say on the agent front is that I think we have a unique position today in that no one else has the same amount of data on user behavior that we do. And so if you look at what's out there, there's no -- right -- so for text data, there's lots of open source text on the Internet that people are training models on and creating. But for behavioral data, there's nothing really. It's like there's us, there's maybe a handful of other companies that have similar sized data sets. So we actually have a unique advantage in that we can -- we are able to create models that help you get insight out of this data, and we're uniquely positioned to do that in a way that almost no other company is.

In the Agentic Computing, there's this opportunity for computers to take those actions on behalf of humans. How does that change kind of the calculus at all? If it's not actually a human doing the action in this computer, does that change the framework or the opportunity?

A little bit. So I think there's -- so there's a few different parts to that. So one is that like, yes, if agents are doing all these actions instead of humans, does that change things? Oh yes, I'd expect the pattern of behavior to look very, very different. But the same fundamental units, say, you're taking an action -- like the fundamental unit that we're architecturally based around is you have an event, which is you're doing a particular action, a user is doing an action at a point in time. And so whether it's an agent doing that or a human doing that, we're valuable either way, even if how they take those actions look different. The other thing I'd say is that one of the things that we're really bet on is that the total amount of time that humans spend in the digital world is just going to go up. And so that's kind of one of our things is because we do -- we're going to help you understand that the best so that you can optimize that experience. And so whether that is with agents, whether that's with traditional user interfaces, whether that's with something else, it's like we're kind of agnostic to any form. And we see customers who are using us for wearables, for example, or for airline ticket kiosks or for support systems. So we have -- we see lots of different use cases because you're still -- it's like the interface between the human and the digital world, and that's what we do a world-class job of tracking today at Amplitude.

So that's just the proliferation of digital experience is going to continue to expand.

Yes, yes.

Super interesting.

So just a couple of examples we've shared with some of our fast casual restaurant customers. They've started with their mobile app. And so they're engaging with their customers in a mobile way. And now they're starting to put kiosks in the restaurants, and they're taking that data and they're blending it together for greater insights about how the experience is either in the restaurant or when you're picking up, different menu items, different promotions, different loyalty programs. That just didn't exist before for a lot of those retailers.

I'm going to ask one more question, and then I'm going to open it up to the audience to see if there's any Q&A. But I do want to get into some financials. The net revenue retention rate did improve, and we've had some of this abatement from the downsell pressure that had weighed on the model for a while. Now that the renewal pressure has largely worked through, you actually saw NRR in Q4 kind of go back to 100% for the first time in I think it was about 1.5 years. So how should investors think about the go-forward trajectory from here? How quickly can NRR start to move again, especially now that you have the multiproduct adoption tailwinds and the strong enterprise pipeline?

So what we said as part of our earnings, we're expecting a gradual improvement in that. And that's both because of the multiproduct sales capability as well as us just targeting more and more enterprise clients. The proportion of our business that is enterprise, which we define as companies who have 1,000 employees or greater than $100 million is increasing. And so when you break down that cohort, they have much better retention rates, they have higher gross retention rates. And so over time, we're going to have a higher and higher percentage of our business coming from that customer segment. And invariably, it's going to drive higher net dollar retention rates. But what I've said on the earnings is we're going to see a gradual improvement throughout 2025 as we're executing on those strategies.

Do we have any questions from the audience? I guess one up here in the front. Our mic is coming around.

You talked a lot about the insights you drive from consumer behaviors. It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on any applicability of those insights to advertising just broadly and the potential to increase conversion rates or increased advertising insights?

Absolutely. Yes. I think ads is actually kind of one of the biggest areas a lot of companies will look to understand. I only give you a very concrete example. So we did some work with NBC last year where they wanted to understand -- so they have the Peacock, their subscription business, and they have a free trial of it, and they want to understand when -- at what point during that trial do they want to start inserting ads into the experience because if they do it too early, you'll lose users and they won't come back. But if you do it too late, you don't actually get to monetize your users. So what's the ideal point? What they found with Amplitude is that you actually -- in the first 3 episodes of series, the rate at which someone will churn is a lot higher when showing advertising. But once you get to that fourth and beyond, it's actually significantly lower. So that was a great insight that they got out of Amplitude that told them, "Okay, don't show ads within the first 3 episodes. But after that, you can start injecting with them and your retention rate will still maintain while getting to monetize the cohort." So a great example of optimizing the experience in a way that they didn't know without using Amplitude and the data we provide.

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No. So we're not in the ad tech space. We're specifically first-party data. So it's about the first-party data you have on your customers and different applications of that. But that may be a space we end up getting into in the future.

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Yes. People will use Amplitude to report out on that data, but we don't directly manage that or anything like that.

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Yes. So we're starting to see a lot of great success against Adobe. I think a few years ago, we'd mainly be brought in alongside. Last year, for the first time, we saw us replacing them in a number of companies, and that was fantastic. And so we're going to scale that as we go through this year. We -- so Adobe, massive business. They have their Creative Cloud, their Marketing Cloud and their Document Cloud. Within their Marketing Cloud, there's a number of offerings they have and the one that we compete with is their Data business. And that's about a $2.5 billion to $3 billion a year business that we think of ourselves as the next generation of products. With the capabilities we have today now with Guides and Surveys in place, we kind of have all of the next-generation capabilities. And so there's no reason for someone to go with a point solution over Amplitude. The place that we're going to be investing more in is like, obviously, Adobe has a long line of legacy features specifically targeted towards marketing buyers that we haven't fully built out. So we're going to do more of them this year. We'll do more in coming years. But we're now at the point where we are a credible replacement for that Data part of their Marketing Cloud.

We can get one more question in the back with the mic.

Great. Maybe just to continue on the Adobe theme. As you start pushing into the Salesforces and the Adobes, are you seeing any customers just not coming to you because they just can't break out of that walled garden approach? And then a different lens on that question is, are you losing any customers of late because they're now just giving away the product for free or something like that. So in terms of customer acquisition and the customer retention against those big players?

Yes. The packaging play -- I mean, that's standard that they'll bundle and will give away the analytics piece of the giveaway, so that offsets it. But we're able to be effective against it. I think my much bigger concern is that the awareness. So there's a lot of companies that are not even aware that we're an alternative, right? So they've lived in the Adobe ecosystem for their marketing platform. And there isn't really another one that they can go to that's ready for them as an enterprise. And so that's where we want to -- that's where we're driving a big focus in getting the word out this year that, "Hey, this is an alternative. It's next generation. It's much, much better than Adobe." And so yes, we're going to share a bunch of those success stories that we've actually seen. Actually, funny statistic, I think, that on the Marketing Cloud side is that I think they're actually quite ripe for disruption. If you look at -- I think I've shared this with you, actually, if you look at the top 20 largest technology vendors in B2B, Adobe actually has the lowest NPS out of all of them. They're actually tied for last place with Oracle. So there's definitely a lot of interest in potential alternatives out there. The biggest problem is we just need to get on the map that we're one of them.

Awesome. Well, so with that, we are just about up on time. Thank you so much for joining us today, and we're really looking forward to seeing all the good stuff in 2025.

Thank you.

Thank you, Elizabeth.