AT & S Austria Technologie & Systemtechnik Aktiengesellschaft (ATS) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome, and thank you for joining the Austria Technologie & Systemtechnik Aktiengesellschaft Conference Call on Results for the First Quarter 2026/27. I would now like to turn the conference over to Mr. Philipp Gebhardt.

Thank you, Viara. Good morning or afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to the AT&S Q1 '26/'27 Conference Call. Today with us is Michael Mertin, CEO; and Gerrit Steen, CFO. Mr. Mertin will give an overview of the key developments and Mr. Steen will comment on the financial figures and our guidance. As Viara mentioned, the presentation will be followed by a Q&A session. Now I would like to hand over to Mr. Mertin. The floor is yours.

Yes. Thank you very much. And ladies and gentlemen, a very warm welcome from my side. My name is Michael Mertin, I'm CEO of AT&S AG now since a little bit more than 1 year, and it's an honor now to present you for the second time Q1 numbers and now Q1 numbers for our new fiscal year '26/'27. It's an extreme pleasure to do that with my dear and still relatively new colleague, our CFO, Gerrit Steen. And very early this morning, I read one of the first articles about the positive reaction on our quarterly numbers. And the headline was successful restructuring and turnaround. And ladies and gentlemen, I think this is correct and incorrect both ways. So we have a very positive first quarter. But it's just the delivery to promise. It's exactly what I promised to hopefully all of you a year ago. It's a very consequent way of developing a company from a pure supplier into a tech and innovation partner to its customers. Of course, doing the homework on the cost side, on the supply chain side within all of our operations, et cetera. But it's a transformation of the company and all of its business models as well. And this is the core reason why our profitability is going up and why our sales are going up and why customers are so keen to work together with us. And this is, of course, strongly supported by the entire Executive Board, and therefore, also a very special thank you again to Gerrit Steen, who is supporting me now since a couple of months. And so we are both driving this kind of a success. So sorry for these initial remarks. I think this was important, especially for me because I was the person giving you the promise a year ago. So now coming to the first slide. We had a very strong start into our new fiscal year with a revenue of approximately EUR 550 million. This is a growth of 40% constant currency year-on-year. We had a very clear turnaround of our earnings per share. You already saw this indication in the last quarter of the last fiscal year, but now it's a very clear turnaround from a negative earnings per share from minus EUR 1.55 to close to EUR 0.93 earnings per share at the beginning of a typically relatively weak first quarter. But you see this is not a weak quarter, it's a strong one and also in profitability. Our EBITDA went up by 134% versus previous year, and we ended up with EUR 165 million EBITDA, what is an EBITDA margin of a little bit more than 30%. I always told you that EBITDA is just one financial KPI and maybe not the most important for us. We want to deliver net profitability at the end, earnings per share. This is what counts. We want to provide positive cash flows on the operational side for you. And therefore, the EBIT number, what is our internal core KPI for profitability because it's the KPI, what is easiest to access. We show you an EBIT of EUR 73 million, what is more than we reached in the entire last year. This is more than plus 500% versus prior year, and it's an EBIT margin of more than 13%. I'm quite proud to tell you that all of the communicated projects are on track. More than this, there are more projects which we have not communicated so far and where I can't talk about so far until the ink is, as we call it, dry. So we have still a very strong market momentum and customer diversification is still going on. We have a couple of more projects in our pipeline in the 3-digit million euro range. Interestingly, with the diversification, I promised to you in both in customers and in sites. So in customers/technologies and in sites. So more or less all of our sites worldwide will profit from these ongoing projects and both of our business units will profit from these increases as well. Maybe you remember that we announced a very defined China-for-China business. This has been successfully implemented. Management is in place. And we had a very, very positive head start, better than expected. And we see that this business will also be a strong pillar for the future. We, for certain political reasons, of course, we divided it internally from the remaining part of the business. So it's a pure China-for-China business driven by our Chinese employees. To secure our financial freedom and, of course, also to secure our shareholder equity, we successfully placed a EUR 400 million convertible hybrid bond, interesting construction, but very successful. Many of you and other investors have been keen to sign on for it. So you will see later on from that also our financial situation significantly improved and gives us all the tailwind we need for further growth. So next slide, please. So as I said, a technology partner for our customers, not just supplying standard products, it is important not just to be in one of the market segments. We are all talking a lot about the substrate area. Of course, what is a very strongly growing area coming from artificial intelligence, supercomputing, and advanced computing. But nevertheless, there is a lot of things around it where we are profiting from testing infrastructure, very high complex systems, very high complex PCBs, printed circuit boards, which are necessary to produce test equipment for all these IC chips we have in the world. We have advanced PCBs for many of communication applications, for space applications, but also for applications with very high power demand. We have high-power electrical embedded components in PCBs for power distribution within computers, within artificial intelligence systems, to bring down the necessary currents to handle and lower values, what is highly important. And here, we are actually ramping up capacity, not just here in Austria, but also in other countries. We already talked about optics. Optics definitely is key. It is already becoming key. You remember that I talked about optics from my first day on because the 21st century is the century of the photon, and photon's optical transmission is significantly more effective in the energy consumption on the one hand, and it's significantly faster by a couple of orders of magnitude. So we are more and more stepping in the production of optical transceivers, and we are going into the embedding of optical structures in the future as well, co-packaged optics. I will come back to this later on. And of course, we have IC substrates, which are not any longer just these small 50x50-millimeter substrates, which we know from the past. We are talking about more and more complex systems where entire chiplet systems are on top of these substrates have to be interconnected where we have to embed tens of components for the internal communication for pre-computation of data within a substrate. So this is going on as planned with a couple of customers already. So we are not depending on 1 or 2 customers anymore. And this bunch of opportunities is driving the entire business all over the globe for us. Next one, please. Let me come back once to optics. I know that a lot of you are keen on getting a deeper insight into technology. And we promise from time to time that our CTO also will give a talk to you, diving a little bit deeper in technology. But just to understand what we're actually doing when we are investing into optics, pluggable optics is what you have in your network. If you have a computer network at home, if you have Internet at home, sometimes you already get an optical plug into your house connected to your router. And from there, you have the classical electronic distribution by cable. This is pluggable optics. Then you have optics on board. You saw this device on the last slide already. So we have optical interconnectors, which can be placed directly on a board to connect 2 different boards to each other for high-speed communication. This is state-of-the-art technology, and we are in it. The next step, what is actually ramping like hell, is so-called co-packaged optics. So the next step is not to have these optical plugs to be plugged into a board, but now we embed optical transceivers into circuit boards. So we put them directly into the board with micro plug-ins from fibers. This is what is actually the latest generation of technology, what we are also producing, and we are also further investing in. But there will be a next step. And this next step will change the world even more. And this is optical integrated on a board on, for chip-to-chip communication, for chip-to-memory communication, for the communication within an interposer. And also on this kind of technology, we are actually working. We are talking about these technologies with our customers. And exactly this kind of road mapping and also evaluating the future of technology possibilities is what creates the strong binding and the strong relation now between our core customers and ourselves. So I'm pretty sure that all these optical fabrics will be the future of computation for energy saving. This is one issue. The other one is for enhanced communication, what actually is the bottleneck for advanced computation. Okay. Next one. Yes, we are expanding and investing in almost all of our sites actually. And so what is one of the most prominent ones because we made an announcement about it is the Kulim expansion. So our expansion in Malaysia, in the north of Malaysia. And it's the Kulim Campus, as we call it, 2.0. You see on the picture, we see later on a little bit a bigger one. On the right-hand side of the left picture, there is the plant what is already in use for AMD. In the front, you see R&D, technology, and some infrastructure. And the big plant on the left-hand side, this is the new plant that the shell is already existing, where we are actually building out for a second big customer and a couple of smaller customers. This is already financed. This is already announced. In Chongqing, in China, we also have expansions. We are maxing out the resources we have over there. So under proportionately to existing investments or to new investments, just by adding some equipment, we can significantly increase our capacity for existing customers with existing products. That means on a relatively low-risk level with a relatively low investment level and, of course, a high profitability, especially a smaller gap, sorry, between EBITDA and EBIT. We have an enhanced technology mix here. So we produce substrates for artificial intelligence. We produce substrates for servers and for high-performance computer and for network applications as well. And we are actually looking for more capacity for embedded optics. But also in Europe, we are expanding. You already heard about this Hinterberg II plant for substrates and also our R&D line, what is actually ramping. And also here, we are filling some bottlenecks to enhance capacity to the max. But more interesting maybe is that we are also investing in the classical technologies of for high-performance electrical or high-power electrical components, which working like small transformers. I tried to explain it already, transformers helping us for better energy supply to high-power consuming artificial intelligence processors. And these small devices are produced on the basis of printed circuit boards with embedded components, and this is actually done here in Hinterberg. We are ramping a huge production here, and we will see the effects from Q3 and Q2 and Q3 on as a contribution for our business unit, ES. Next one. Maybe for those of you which have not seen this picture so far, this is a real picture from our campus in Malaysia to get a better impression. I already tried to explain Kulim 1. This is dedicated to AMD, where we are actually ramping to the max. Kulim 2, what is dedicated mostly for one other big customer, but also for additional ones where we made the announcement for the financing, where we are already leveraging on the profitability. And we announced on the left-hand side, you can see the core building where the piling is already done and some basement is already done. Actually, we are using it as a car park. But on this plot, we will build the so-called core building. Core building means a core is the inner part of a substrate with different functionalities, a lot of drillings, embeddings internally. So this will be the most modern core building for us, what is necessary for the next and over next generation of substrates being produced here in Kulim. Then we have where you see these blue containers available space. So if necessary, we can build a third plant here, so Kulim 3 for additional customers in the upcoming future. As I said, we are actually negotiating some more contracts. And because we are running out of space, we already bought a plot on the right-hand side, where you see this available space on the outer right edge. There we start to move the entire car park and have an additional space for the future. You see we are quite well prepared now for the ramp, what we are actually doing and where our prognosis is based on for this year and the outlook a little bit for the next fiscal year. But there is more to come, and we are already prepared for that. So to now have the overlay to the financials, I will hand over to Gerrit Steen, who will show you a little bit or rationalize to you a little bit the financial outlook by time and by the capacity build within our expansions. Gerrit?

Yes. Thank you, Michael. And as well from my side, a warm good morning and good afternoon to everybody on the call. Yes, before turning to the quarterly results in detail, exactly as Michael just laid out, let's briefly look at the economics of our expansion project. I think the bottom line of that slide is that this expansion follows a clearly defined financial profile. Capacity additions are supported, as you know, by long-term customer commitments, providing to AT&S visibility and allowing us to invest in a disciplined manner, combining the significant CapEx and growth with cash flow generation. So looking at the slide in detail, customer payments support funding during the construction phase, while already contributing to earnings. So therefore, you see earnings impact already in this fiscal year. As production ramps, product revenues become the primary earnings driver and free cash flow generating accordingly. So timing across our 3 announced bigger expansion projects is as well nicely staggered. So Chongqing with a quicker ramp through targeted debottlenecking, followed by the Kulim 1 expansion, where we add an additional line in existing structures. And then finally, Kulim 2 with the core building, which includes a complete build-out of the existing shell and the new core building. So therefore, that overall gives us visibility both on earnings over the next years and as well on the free cash flow impact, which will nicely give us a clear path to higher cash generation. So overall, CapEx, as we announced in Chongqing in the high double-digit million range until summer '27 and Kulim EUR 1.5 billion to EUR 2.0 billion till beginning of fiscal '28/'29. Overall, what we see in the industry and which broadly applies to us as well is that CapEx to revenue is roughly 1:1 per annum. So that growth model, I think that's important, nicely combines visibility and capital discipline with strong earnings impact and a nice improving free cash flow profile. Let's now move on to the next slide and go a little bit deeper into our first quarter results and our outlook for the remainder of the fiscal year. Overall, the quarter demonstrates continued execution against our growth strategy, as Michael already laid out. We delivered another quarter of strong operational execution. And that execution, I think, is very important, reflected both in our financial performance and as well the increasing strength of our balance sheet, as you will see later. Revenue, plus 40% in constant currency, EBITDA above 30%. D&A came in at slightly above EUR 90 million, small acceleration to Q4, in line with our expectations. Interest result at EUR 32 million, slightly elevated in the quarter due to some FX revaluation of foreign currency intercompany loans. Net income, therefore, at EUR 40.8 million, a significant acceleration as well quarter-over-quarter and translating into EUR 0.93 EPS. More important, though, I think, is the overall operational driver and how they developed overall in the quarter. Higher utilization remained the largest contributor, supported by pricing improvement and a favorable product mix. Overall, I think that's very important as well at this point. Demand remains very strong. Customer schedules remain unchanged, and our confidence continues to be supported by long-term customer commitments. Taken together, the quarter confirms that both growth and profitability continue to develop according to plan. And we actually expect Q2 to further accelerate with both growth and margin nicely being within our full year guidance range. Both business units contributed, although the dynamics differed. So let's have a look at them now. Electronics Solutions showed a quarter-over-quarter improvement with good volume and mix growth. We saw as well higher loading in our China sites, especially, which bodes well for revenue in Q2. But as you will see later as well an effect on our inventory levels. Our cost measures continue to show results, which is very nice, slightly offset in the quarter by some FX effects due to the strengthening of the Chinese yuan. But as expected, still an overall slower start to the year, not yet 100% in line with our full year expectations. But as I pointed out in our last quarter call, there's a time delay in passing on cost increases to our customers. So the quarter reflects these temporary pricing effects as expected. In addition, we continued investing in the readiness, especially of our Austrian operations ahead of future growth. Michael gave you some more details on that. So nothing to worry about. Both factors are expected to unwind progressively, supporting stronger revenue growth and profitability over the coming quarters. Moving on to ME. Microelectronics continues to scale exactly as planned. Revenue increased by a very strong 93% and EBITDA margin improved to more than 42%. I think the performance reflects successful ramps, both in Kulim and Leoben and increased utilization across our sites with a particular strong performance in Chongqing. Strong customer demand, improving pricing, especially as of June and a favorable product mix. Recently signed customer agreements also started providing first tailwind in the quarter with accelerating earnings contribution expected over the coming months. And as in every quarter, the results include contributions from existing contractual agreements and other recurring items that are part of our normal business model. With a significant growth in the industry, supply chain conditions remain dynamic and require continued close attention. While this created some constraints during the quarter, we successfully managed the situation and expect doing so going forward. Our focus is not only on securing sufficient volumes, but also on managing lead times and ensuring reliable deliveries. Our teams really remain closely engaged with our suppliers to secure the availability of key materials as well as the equipment required for our continued production ramps and expansion programs. Combined with the strong demand visibility we continue to see from our customers, this gives us confidence for the remainder of the year. Moving on to our balance sheet. During the quarter, we successfully completed our EUR 400 million convertible hybrid bond. The transaction was met with strong investor demand, resulting in attractive terms and underscoring our strong access to the capital markets. Together with our existing liquidity, this further strengthened our financial position. Cash now exceeded EUR 1.2 billion and net debt declined to EUR 954 million. We are very pleased with the pace of deleveraging, as you see. Q1 leverage improved to below 2x, demonstrating the strong operational performance and the disciplined financial management, including certainly the new financing. So this balance sheet increasingly provides the financial flexibility required for the next phase of expansion while maintaining disciplined capital allocation. Flipping over to cash and cash generation. Positive operating cash flow certainly is for us a very key indicator. Our overall operating cash flow mainly reflected higher working capital as revenue increased in the quarter and inventories were deliberately built to support the production ramps and higher loading and increased supply chain resilience. The rather lower CapEx number in the quarter reflects the phasing of our investment programs. Therefore, we expect both CapEx as well as operating cash flow to increase over the coming quarters with operating free cash flow remaining clearly positive. Our equity ratio increased to 29%, reflecting both our improved financial position and the current capital structure, both hybrid instruments, including. Which brings me to our guidance. Based on our first quarter performance and current customer visibility, there is no change in our assessment of the business. We fully confirm our recently upgraded guidance for revenue growth of 45% to 55%, profitability of 32% to 37% EBITDA margin, CapEx of EUR 1 billion to EUR 1.2 billion and leverage clearly below 3. Q1 leverage, as you saw, gives us confidence that it should continue to improve in the coming quarters. And as mentioned, Q2 growth and margin are already to be expected fully in line with the guidance ranges. So let me conclude with 3 key messages. Firstly, the first quarter demonstrates continued execution across all dimensions of our strategy. Second, our confidence remains firmly supported by long-term customer commitments, providing a good degree of visibility as we continue our expansion. Third, we continue to execute this growth with disciplined capital allocation, a strengthening balance sheet and a clear path towards stronger cash generation. Taken together, there is no change to our assessment of the business. Demand remains strong. Customer commitments remain unchanged. Execution continues according to plan. So thank you very much for your attention. Michael and I are now happy to take your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Mertin. Thank you, Mr. Steen. We will now start the Q&A. [Operator Instructions] Let's start with the first one. It is actually Mr. Martin Marandon from ODDO BHF.

My first one is on the sales guidance. Looking at the growth guidance today, how should we think about what is included and what is not? I'm trying to understand how conservative the guidance is, notably in terms of pricing and new customer, potential new customer agreements. And I have a follow-up.

Guidance includes everything what we actually know on what will have an impact on this fiscal year. If there would be some contracts on short notice, which have an impact on this fiscal year, maybe that it could be an add-on. But in principle, we added the contracts, which will have a contribution for this fiscal year. The positive thing is, if we are talking about additional contracts, it will have a positive additional contribution for the upcoming time for the next and the over next fiscal year. So it will be the grant for the continuous growth as we see it today. So our growth will not end by the end of this fiscal year. This is the core of the message.

Okay. And on pricing, how much of pricing is in the guidance today? And do you think there will be an evolution through the year?

Yes. This is Gerrit. So first of all, I think if you look back at our original guidance for this fiscal year, I think we indicated at that time that mainly 1/3 of that, and that would be basically around 10% or so would be more pricing related and the rest is volume. And now the upgraded guidance certainly mostly related to the new customer agreements and additional volumes. So therefore, that is something where we are looking at long-term partnerships with our customers. And we are very much looking at our cost base and what we need to pass on to our customers based on the cost inflation we are seeing. And that's what we have worked through and what we are still working on, on a couple of instances. And therefore, that's what we are having included at this point in our guidance. If there will be some further inflationary pressures on top of what we are seeing right now during this fiscal year, we need to certainly assess this and then determine how much we need to pass it on to our customers, but that's certainly not included at this point.

Okay. Very clear. And my second question is on the customer payments. I mean could you give a bit more color on how discussion and the structure of the deals related to adding more capacity have changed with customers? And if you could give a bit more color also on how much of prepayments are nonrefundable capacity reservation fees.

So the important thing is when I started my job as a new CEO, I visited almost all important customers. And I told them, we are a tech company. I invite you to visit us to create joint road maps, have a look into our R&D and let's cooperate on technology. On the other hand, I asked all the customers, look, we have a relatively low ratio of shareholder equity. If you want to do things together, I do not accept negative cash flows in our business cases, not now and not tomorrow. And this is the basis of these financing models. It is a mixture of kind of prepayment and addition to the investment. And this mixture can deviate a little bit from left to right. But the positive thing is, and you've seen it from the first slide of Gerrit, that our business cases are constructed in a way that we are not diluting profitability after we get these payments. We get payments over time. This is one point. The other point is we also have pricing agreements. And in this combination, we get a very stable business case with increasing cash flow over time. So the margins later on are not significantly not diluted at all by this construction of financing or grants we get. This is the important part. I can't get into all the details, of course, which are confidential between our customers and us. But the important point for you is you will not see dilutions of profitability over time coming out of these deals.

And the next question is from Mr. George Brown from DB.

I just have 2. So just firstly, on the guide, similar to the first question, the guide for this year. I mean, I'm assuming the customer or client payment for this year is roughly EUR 300 million, give or take. If I assume the PCB, the EBITDA level there is roughly stable year-over-year, then even at the top end of your guide for both sales and the EBITDA margin, that implies the underlying EBITDA margin in Microelectronics is roughly 36%, give or take. So I'm just wondering how conservative you're being for fiscal '27 now that the margin in the Microelectronics business in Q4 last year, but now in Q1 is sort of around 40%, even excluding the client payments? And then I have a follow-up as well.

George, thanks for your question. This is Gerrit. So first of all, I think we had some, as we indicated as well, some first clients payment included already in Q1. So that certainly was helping the margin in Q1 on Microelectronics already. And certainly, if you then look at the dynamics and the outlook over the quarters, I think that certainly will be dynamic as well based on the agreements and when they realize their milestones, et cetera, related to some of these agreements and so on. So therefore, again, we have included and baked that into our guidance as we see it at this point in time and therefore, feel comfortable with what we have guided for this fiscal year, including these effects.

And you should also take into account that our EBITDA margin for ES will be improved over time. As I tried to explain, we are actually running a huge project on more than one site for ES. And therefore, we are occupying a lot of capacities for rebuilding, for new installations, et cetera, highly interesting with the contribution from the second half of this fiscal year on with strong contribution in the next and over the next years. So there is a growth path also for ES and ES will be a strong contributor for the EBITDA margin as well.

Brilliant. Okay. That's very helpful. Just secondly, I know you can't disclose everything here, but it would be really helpful for modeling purposes on the client payment side, trying to sort of quantify that to some extent. I know I said roughly EUR 300 million. Is that the sort of ballpark figure for this year in terms of the contribution? And then sort of a quick follow-up to that is that what's interesting in your earnings presentation is that you expect, again, strong customer payments in fiscal '28, which was, I guess, contrary to some people's expectations. So are the clients payments at a similar level in fiscal '28 to fiscal '27? Or are they coming down? Or are they going up? Any sort of comment on that would be helpful.

Yes. George, this is Gerrit again. So again, I think when it comes to these customer agreements, certainly, they have different elements. So they are differentiated into different parts of a long-term strategic agreement with these customers, which as well going beyond some specific topics. And therefore, they are as well running across certainly partly the length of the overall contractual relationship. They are partly tied to the CapEx and the CapEx spending. So they are partly tied to capacity reservation. So there are very different elements with very different timing tied to them. So therefore, that's a very diverse picture and as well differentiate a little bit customer by customer. So we have certainly different kind of agreements with the different customers where we again, can't go into all kind of details due to confidentiality. So therefore, you will see these impacts on these customer agreements as well into the following fiscal year, exactly. So it's not something which is just limited to this year and even goes beyond the following fiscal year into fiscal '28, '29. So therefore, that is the financial impact. And then you will see when you look at the slide we've shown certainly then now over time and especially now starting next year then as well the operational business out of these customer agreements and the additional volumes we are manufacturing for them kicking in more and more, starting in Chongqing and then moving over to Kulim 1 and then '28, '29 to Kulim 2. So it's different pieces and moving into different directions, but all contributing.

Yes, it includes milestone bonus payments. So it's a spread over time, and it's an hand-in-hand overlap with the operational performance. So therefore, we will show this financial stability of our business case over the foreseeable time for many years from now on. This is the key behind it.

And the next question is from Mr. George Chang from Alta Capital.

So since you already name your client AMD, so I'll just say that. So AMD says that they're expecting the server CPU market to grow at 50% CAGR from something like $25 billion to $220 billion. So Agentic AI is a key driver for server CPU. And 6 months ago, that probably was an unthinkable number. And certainly, AMD didn't foresee that when you build Kulim 1 for AMD. So I'm just wondering from a value or volume perspective, how do you see your business evolving around server CPU? And how do you prepare capacity for that beyond Kulim? Obviously, you sort of mentioned sort of Kulim 3, but I'm just wondering sort of the timing for these new projects.

Yes, that's a good and important point. Most of the customers have not foreseen the demand of their, let me say, infrastructure computation to the AI centers. And this contains a lot of server computing, client computing as well and now asking for additional capacity. Fortunately, our lines, especially for AMD, are flexible enough to have a kind of a load mixing. So we, depending on the demand of the customer, we can produce a little bit more here and there from server, advanced server or AI products. And historically, this was unfavorable because the prices for client and servers have been significantly lower than for AI devices. So this changed to a certain extent. So that also for us, it's not that a problem to shift capacities around a little bit. It also helps us with the material diversification. So we still, the entire market still has some constraints on the supply chain side. And for the server applications and the AI applications, you have different kind of glass material. So this is helping also to have the entire production filled to the maximum actually. Additionally, and this comes back to your original point, we said that we fill up our Chongqing facilities now to the max. And this, of course, has to do a lot with, let me say, kind of legacy products or existing products for both for AI, but also for advanced server. So by filling up our capacities here by now filling the last places for machines, we can fulfill some of this demand, what is actually coming up, not just from AMD, but also from other customers in that range. This is why we are maxing out everything what we actually can. And this is a relatively low-risk revenue because it's more or less existing high-end products, but it's existing, it's foreseeable yield, it's foreseeable supply chains, foreseeable quality towards the customers and the customers are happy. And for us, it gives the grant to relatively high margins because this 1:1 ratio of revenue to invest is a little bit more on the revenue side if you max out an existing plant. So profitability looks a little bit better. So one of our advantages is our flexibility and technology, as I initially said. So we have the flexibility for almost all technologies which are actually demanded from the market. We are not limited to one or the other customers. We are relatively flexible here, and we support all of the necessary technologies for today and for the upcoming future. We are not limited here. This is one of our big advantages.