CM.com N.V. (CMCOM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, and welcome to the CM.com's Fourth Quarter and Full Year 2025 Results Webcast, hosted by CEO, Jeroen van Glabbeek; and CFO, Geert Beullens. Thank you for joining us today. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, I would like to remind you that during this call, we may make forward-looking statements. These statements are based on current expectations and assumptions and are subject to risks and uncertainties that could cause actual results to differ materially from those expressed or implied. Forward-looking statements include, but are not limited to, statements regarding our financial outlook, strategic priorities, market developments and future performance. We are under no obligation to update any forward-looking statements made during this call, except as required by law. With that, I would now like to hand over to Jeroen van Glabbeek and Geert Beullens. Please gentlemen, go ahead.

Yes. Thank you. Welcome, everyone, and thank you for joining us for our fourth quarter full year 2025 results investor conference call. Before we begin the Q&A session, Geert and I would like to provide an overview regarding the company's financial performance, strategic progress and outlook.

Thank you, Jeroen, and welcome, everyone. Let's start with our financial performance. EBITDA in 2025 reached a record at EUR 18.4 million, up 12% year-on-year. 2025 adjusted EBITDA amounted to EUR 19.8 million at the upper side of the revised guidance range of EUR 18 million to EUR 20 million. While 2025 revenue decreased by 5% to EUR 259.4 million, primarily due to foreign exchange effects and lower CPaaS activity from some large clients, the majority of our portfolio demonstrated solid performance. Moreover, our annual recurring revenue grew 7% year-on-year to EUR 35.9 million, reflecting the strength of our subscription-based business model, reinforcing the stability of our revenue base. Furthermore, the quality of our revenue further diversified both in terms of regions with Europe as a stronghold, contributing over 60% and the share of top 10 clients further reducing to 30%. We achieved record messaging volumes in 2025, increasing by 10% to 9.1 billion messages. In Q4 2025, the number of messages processed increased by 30% year-on-year to 2.7 billion. During the year, we made further progress with HALO, our Agentic AI platform. Revenue from HALO increased 44% quarter-on-quarter in Q4 2025, driven by increasing adoption of AI-driven engagement capabilities. Customer experience was further enhanced through the launch of Voice AI and Voice for WhatsApp. Gross margin in 2025 improved to 31.3%, up 1 percentage point year-on-year, reflecting improved product mix from higher-margin services. This marks our fourth consecutive year of margin expansion from 25.4% gross margin in 2022 to 31.3% gross margin in 2025. Adjusted operating expenses for 2025, excluding EUR 1.4 million restructuring costs came in 5% lower, marking the fourth consecutive year of improved operational leverage from EUR 94.3 million in 2022 to EUR 61.5 million in 2025. Our operational efficiency improved further during the year, supported by AI-driven processes and an 8% reduction in FTE in 2025, resulting in a continued increase in gross profit per employee at EUR 132,000 in 2025 from EUR 79,500 in 2022. This underpins our continued focus on cost discipline and efficiency improvements building a leading AI product portfolio. The net loss for the year was EUR 3.8 million compared to EUR 19.8 million loss in 2024. This is primarily driven by the EUR 8.8 million net gain following the [indiscernible] on the convertible bonds in 2025 and the absence of the EUR 8.8 million goodwill impairment recognized in 2024. Turning to our balance sheet. We have strengthened our financial position and flexibility during 2024, '25 through a combination of our refinancing and capital raises, further working capital management and CapEx efficiency. A key milestone in 2025 was a successful refinancing of our EUR 100 million convertible bonds ahead of schedule during the first quarter of the year. We secured an EUR 80 million revolving credit facility and raised EUR 20 million in equity and an additional raise of EUR 5 million in capital at the end of 2025. In all, net debt was reduced by 25% to EUR 61.9 million, leading to a lowering of our adjusted leverage ratio from 4.5x at year-end 2024 to 3.1x at year-end 2025. These efforts create a solid foundation for the next phase of profitable growth. Looking ahead, we are focused on growing profitably following the launch of HALO, the first Agentic AI platform in Europe last year, we are well positioned to resume revenue growth starting in the first quarter of 2026. For the year 2026, we anticipate at least 30% adjusted EBITDA growth driven by our structurally lower cost base with accelerating AI adoption and favorable market conditions potentially driving results beyond these expectations. With that, I would like to turn the call back over to Jeroen for our strategic progress.

Yes. Thank you, for presenting this great results. As we reflect on 2025, I want to highlight the progress CM.com made during a year of transformation. AI is becoming a defining force in how companies operate and communicate. The launch of our Agentic AI platform, HALO marked a significant step forward in our product portfolio. HALO builds on the fast-moving technological landscape, tapping into CM.com deep in-house research and development expertise and our agnostic platform design, which allows us to innovate ahead of the markets. The adoption of HALO by clients highlights its potential to redefine customer engagement and business operations. HALO shifts AI from being reactive to proactive and task-oriented, enabling businesses to automate workflows, optimize customer journeys, and deliver personalized interactions at scale. Being headquartered in Europe also means HALO is developed within strict regulatory frameworks, meeting the highest European standards. In 2025, CM.com became one of the first technology companies worldwide to obtain ISO 42001 certification, the international standard for Responsible AI development and management. This certification underscores our commitment to delivering AI solutions that are transparent, controllable, and compliant with European regulations, strengthening trust amongst customers in regulatory -- regulated sectors. In addition to HALO, we introduced Voice AI, enabling customers to interact with AI agents via voice channels, and that's including WhatsApp voice. This innovation aligns with the growing demand for richer, more personalized messaging and interactive communication on a massive scale. Looking ahead, our strategic vision for 2026 is centered around growing profitability while continuing to innovate and expand our capabilities as an AI-first company. The strategic priorities shared at our May 2025 Capital Markets Day are delivering measurable financial and operational progress. We unveiled the concept of our platform for customer interaction, a unified solution that combines AI-driven capabilities with our expertise in communication, marketing, service, payments, and live experiences. This platform represents the next evolution of our business, empowering clients to create personalized, automated, and impactful interactions with their consumers. HALO, our Agentic AI layer, will play a central role in this vision, enhancing scalability, efficiency, and margins while optimizing customer journeys across channels. Our platform for customer interaction includes an AI-powered service tools. It includes multi-channel marketing automation and a customer data platform, CDP. In closing, 2025 was a transformative year for CM.com. We strengthened our financial position, we launched groundbreaking innovation, and laid the foundations for sustainable growth. As we look ahead for 2026, we are confident in our ability to build on this progress and capture the opportunities that lie ahead. Now, looking at the longer term, the last months have confirmed the growing customer demand for our advanced AI approach. As shared during our Capital Markets Day, the global AI market is growing, with businesses increasingly adopt AI, and to automate processes, personalizing customer experiences, and driving efficiency, service, marketing, and commerce. Our engagement offering, combining messaging, payments, and data with AI-powered capabilities, is well positioned to address the evolving customer needs. With that, we would be happy to start with the Q&A.

[Operator Instructions] The first question comes from Thymen Rundberg from ING.

I have a few. Yes, at your CMD, which was last year in May. You communicated strong growth ambitions for 2028, 15% gross profit growth year over year. I mean, if I look at 2025, we haven't really seen the turning point yet in terms of growth acceleration. So although we see EBITDA growing slowly that is primarily coming from managing costs rather than really growing gross profit. So my question is, what kind of year will 2026 be going towards the 2028 targets? What's your visibility here, and do you expect 2026 to be the year where you see EBITDA growth primarily coming from gross profit growth? And if so what do you believe are the key drivers here? And then I have a question on your cash balance, was a bit lower than we had anticipated. You also stated already that a part of that seems to be linked to a reduction in payables. So in the first half of '25, we saw this reduction already in trade and other payables of EUR 9 million in the second half, another EUR 8 million reduction whereas in previous years, this was mostly positive. So I just wanted to ask, looking ahead to 2026, if we should expect any further meaningful -- unwinding of payables or if this was mostly just a largely a one-off normalization and how should we think about structural levels of payables going forward? And then last one for Geert. Since you joined CM a few months ago, you had the chance to look at the business with fresh eyes. And from your early assessment, I just wanted to ask you what are the areas you see as the biggest opportunities for improvement? And what initiatives have you decided to prioritize first?

Yeah, okay, Thymen, thanks very much for all the questions. Yes, they are really financial. Let's ask Geert to answer that. First start with the growth projection 2028, 15%, what do you see?

Yes. Thymen, so these growth projections for 2028, I strongly believe they are possible and feasible. What that means for 2026 and 2027, as we also report in our press release, it comes down to having the right products and having the right products proposition to our customers. And I think we are well positioned. Also, looking last week to the event we had talking for the first time to customers adopting AI, the first adopters last year, they are really happy and enthusiastic and see more opportunity. We run, of course, different scenarios. One of these scenarios -- or most of these scenarios, I must say, foresee that this value proposition we have with providing communication products to our clients, then taking this data out of these conversations with clients and using that for more targeted marketing and service, really, is the, becoming proposition. And you see that back in the feedback from customers. It depends mainly on how fast customers will adopt it, and, whether that will be first half, second half. We will see it step up, but, how fast the step up will be is dependent on as we also say in our press release, on the speed of customer adoption and really customers taking this first step. Then moving to your question on cash balance. I think you're right. This was a one-time normalization. So if you take a look at the cash balance for accounts payable at year-end, we significantly reduced our accounts payable balance with about EUR 40 million, and that you see me back in the cash balance at year-end, but we expect that this was -- but we are now at a normal payment base towards our suppliers. Also, of course, there is another angle to that. It's also about collecting money from our customers, and there you see also that our customer balance is being reduced to about 1 month, 1.5 months outstanding, so allowing us to pay also faster to our suppliers. Now, the third question is, of course very interesting. What I've seen being -- having joined first of November is a company that is -- has really good people, energetic people. It's like the company I was working for before, a company that has technology in mind, has vision in mind which gives me a lot of energy and a lot of confirmation that I think that the vision set out by Jeroen and the team is the right one for the future. Going to this one platform with not only communicating with customers, but out of these conversations, taking data and using this data with AI to be more predictive and to be able to enable more marketing and service towards end customers, I think is really, really a good vision. Of course, the biggest opportunities is about telling this vision to our customers and engage with more customers, and as customers buy these products and see revenue growth. And there we are really investing also in our commerce. We are really looking to how can we communicate the value better to our customers and our clients? And you see that back last week in the event we had where we put customers applying our products on the stage, and then they explained to our customers what the benefits were for them, and they confirmed that using AI, using the full platform of CM, is really beneficial for them in efficiency, in also customer satisfaction towards their end customers, and it's providing them more data to target more customers and also to increase their own revenue. So yeah, I think the, the biggest opportunity and initiatives are really positioned around telling our story at the commerce side.

Yes, thank you. [indiscernible] are being now halfway through the first quarter. Yes, we've seen -- yes, we wrote a little bit in our press release, and we expect revenue growth to return this quarter based on what we've seen up to now. So we are, yes, very much looking forward to the coming year. Yes, I hope this answers your question, right?

Yes, maybe a quick follow-up, because Geert, you also mentioned it, and also you, Jeroen, about the positive conversations with all the customers that you had also on the platform that you've launched recently. But also, there's a lot of fear in the market about AI developments and the potential impact on SaaS companies with Anthropic also recently launching their Agentic tool and these plugins. We've seen a lot -- basically, the whole software sector selling off. Yes, these tools also include customer service and marketing. So I was wondering how -- has that had any impact so far, and how do you look at that? And do customers also mention it?

Yes. We don't have fear for AI developments. Obviously, we were the first to launch in Europe an Agentic AI platform a year ago now, and yes, that's been really going well. This -- yes, this last week, we just -- we released a new product for this year. It's a context data platform, platform that really learns about all the interactions as with consumers, and then -- yes, there's context mining, as we call it, and then we use that for marketing going forward. So I think we are really advanced with this technology. Our clients are really front runners. Of course, we have competition, and that's great. Now, a year later, Agentic AI is something we don't have to explain that often than we used to a year ago. So a lot of things happened in the market but it's great. Yes, on a daily basis, we compete with the likes of Salesforce and Microsoft and as far as I remember, for the last 8 years, we compete, we won just by being more advanced and more integrated. And we do have a certain advantage, of course. What is very strong in our portfolio is it's really integrated with our telecommunications and payments capabilities. And no one in the world of AI has -- is also a telecom operator and a licensed payment institution. This combination really helps our clients to be successful in dealing with their consumers. And they can interact through AI, and they can predict behavior based on our platform, they can generate content, but also they can really convert it into a business with payments, and they can really outreach on all the channels which are natively built in our platform. There's Voice. It's messaging, text, RCS, WhatsApp, but also email. We have all the channels natively in our platform, being a telecom operator and being a financial institution as well. That's unique, but that investment really pays off. And then, if you look at all this [indiscernible] coding, so you can -- you hear so much about all the startups and [indiscernible] coding to make an overnight great software. That's great, but what you can't do, you can not really build overnight a global telecom infrastructure. What you also can't do with [indiscernible], you cannot build overnight a European financial institution like we are. So this is a really strong -- defensible play we have here. We deliver what the clients will, and it's not easy to replicate with all the [indiscernible]. So as such, it's not easy to compare our situation with the same competition that you see in the market, here in the market about more traditional and simpler SaaS players because I think what you hear there, I think that is partly true. You could see the efficiency is already approved. So if you look back at our capital markets day May of last year, we have already showed where it's really all about. It's about the data platform consisting of data of our consumers, of our clients. For that, we need clients to trust us to store the data on the platform. We have an history of 25 years, over 25 years of being a trustworthy player to store your data, so that's great. You need, of course, a lot of AI capabilities, predictive AI, generative AI, conversational AI, what have you there. And lastly, you need the communication channels and the payment channels. And this we have all under one roof, and that makes us really well positioned for our clients and a very defensible play going forwards.

Yes, and that was also confirmed last week in the event humor for all. So customers are really saying the quality of the product is really high. It's easy to implement and indeed, the integration with other products, and also it increases the trust they give us being already in a relationship 26 years, being already there. But the integration with the other products is very important as you mentioned, and the quality, of course.

[Operator Instructions] Our next question comes from Wim Gille from ABN AMRO, ODDO BHF.

I have a few questions. First, looking at the fourth quarter results basically 2 questions, Jeroen. The ticketing business seems to disappoint quite a bit in Q4. So in terms of volumes, we're now back at levels we haven't seen since 2023. Despite the fact that you're obviously in some quite big contracts in the last couple of years notably the French one. So can you give us a bit more context on what's happening in the ticketing business and why it was so weak in Q4? Second question I have is one for Geert. You mentioned about the networking capital and that you basically did a bit of a research there, results in an outflow on the payables. What's the reason behind making those changes? And, basically adopting the different process with respect to accounts payable and accounts receivable. Then, I have some questions on the outlook, but, I will follow up with those after these 2.

All right. Yes, let me repeat a bit your question because the sound was a bit soft here. But yes, the first question, Wim, was about the ticketing volumes in Q4. So it was with working capital and about outlook. So let's start with the first one, ticketing volumes. Yes, last quarter, Q4, 2025, we sold 4.5 million tickets. And for fourth quarter -- this was the second best fourth quarter we ever had. Fourth quarter 2022 was 4 million. Fourth quarter 2023 was -- that was actually 4.7 million, so that indeed was better. So third best, indeed. And then fourth quarter 2024 was 4.5, and then now this last quarter, it was 5.0, 4.9, and now we are 4.5. So yes, it's always the soft quarter, the second, the fourth quarter in the winter, people buy less tickets than they go to do in the spring or in summer. So yes, actually, we don't see that much in that figure. But indeed, it was a bit lower than it was a year ago. Maybe we just sold -- we sold more tickets because people sold earlier or later. We don't see that much trend in it. Overall, a lot of business going the same. Indeed, historically, we communicate the number of tickets as a key performance indicator, but maybe we might also actually think that because actually, it's not that much anymore. As we look at what we do now with live and the part of the business where we work on these live experiences for consumers visiting events or museums or music festivals or attraction parks, it's for a few years already about a much broader experience. It's about the apps we deliver, like apps of all festivals, now Olympics for TeamNL. It's also about the marketing we do with email and the whole system, and service, which is integrated service platform, which we do for most of our clients in their lives, but also all the other things we do for them, like the payments on location, the cash registers. So for years now, we have been investing in more and more infrastructure delivery for our live experience clients, and it's going well. So well spotted that the number of tickets is a bit lower for sure, than it was in the last few years. But yes, we don't see that much trend in it going forward. The ticketing market in general is quite stable. It was a bit volatile towards the end of COVID period. You can go through things for like museum and leisure park were closed. After COVID, it rebounced. Everyone was buying tickets, want to go -- everybody want to go out. Now it's stabilizing more or less -- perhaps certain more and more businesses, the features of our platform to the live business. Now, we are quite happy of how things are progressing out there. It's -- actually, it is my client group who really embraces the fullness of our platform and use a lot of the capabilities we have. So it's still a great business. Then the next question about -- talk about the working capital.

Yes, and the cash balance at year-end. Cash balance at year-end in 2023 was EUR 30.1 million. End of December 2024, it was EUR 80 million. So, EUR 5 million lower. Within finance rules, doing a financial, you see a lot of companies showing higher cash balances at period end by delaying payments to suppliers. So, we could also have done that. I decided to continue paying suppliers, so -- and you see that back where the accounts payable balance at the year-end 2024 was EUR 42.3 million. It was at the year-end 2025, EUR 28.5 million, so EUR 14 million deduction. If you take a look at it at our sales level and you take a look at our gross margins, you see that the accounts payable balance as standing on 2024 was, I think, approximately close to 2 months. So 60 days, we lowered that down to 30 to 45 days. Yes, so it was not really playing around with the year-end closing date as maybe done in the past and continuing paying.

Yes, and looking back at last year with revenue of EUR 259 million, of course, that's like over a EUR 1 million for working day. Yes, so in the end, it worked in the year as working capital deviates a few million. It's just days that we're talking about.

Yes, it was really continuing paying till we were at the champagne and that was fine working.

Yes, the sound is pretty bad, to be honest. But let's move to the next one, which is on the outlook, at least the context around it. So in the outlook, you guys are calling for top-line growth as of the first quarter, as well as strong EBITDA growth. And you mentioned a lot around the ARR AI HALO in the outlook. However, if I look back at the last couple of quarters, I've always concluded that the ARR growth is not going fast enough. And also HALO growth sounds impressive at 44% quarter over quarter growth, but at a base of around EUR 3 million-ish, this is simply not enough to move the needle. So my question here is, what is holding you back in the ARR growth, and how can you accelerate, in particular, the growth of HALO, both on the price as well as on the volumes? And what needs to change within the organization in order to accelerate that business? And specifically towards HALO, just until the third quarter, you were mainly selling it to Benelux clients and then mainly selling it to the customer contact centers of these clients. What is the progress you have made outside of this niche, i.e., other departments within the organization as well as other regions? And then maybe, very high over, what should we expect for growth in terms of revenues in CPaaS, Payments, and Ticketing? Is the growth purely coming from AI and SaaS, or should we also expect growth in the other verticals?

All right. Thank you for the question. Yes, revenue growth, yes, we are, of course, a growing tech company, so revenue growth should be part of that and ARR, annual recurring revenue growth is also an important part. And HALO can drive that as being the center of our offering between data platform and all the payments and messaging capabilities we have. So yes, selling our core solutions will also drive other traffic on our platform obviously. And if you look at where we sell, indeed, I think the -- yes, there is always a good country to launch innovative products because Dutch clients are always open for trying out new things, and we are a frontrunner. We are a frontrunner in Agentic AI, and it means we -- first clients will always be the clients who really want to embrace a future products. Now, being in the market with this new product for a year, we managed to sell it actually globally, which we have signed up clients in Middle East, we've signed up clients in Africa. We have quite some remarkable names in the U.S., really family brands trying it out and using it on a daily basis. And in the U.K., we also have some great clients there as well. Selling it globally is going better and better, but indeed, the first traction we had earlier last year was in the Netherlands, namely. But we do a great job to replicate this globally. And, yes, it took maybe a few months to do all translations to localize the marketing, of course to train our employees and our various sales officers. But I think we are happy where we are. We -- at least, with our own targets we had for us to sell this new products globally. And then to whom are we selling it to? Indeed, last year was one obvious business case, that was contact centers. And it's so easy to sell to a contact center. Let's say you have 100 people working in a contact center without AI. We come in with our solution, and you can, yes, do the same work actually, with 30 people with AI. So that's an obvious business case that really resonates well with business leaders amongst our clients and potential clients. Of course, sometimes we have -- you need a bit time to implement everything that can take really months and months to really make it successful, that people trust us, also to bring it across all the channels. What is also something we had to learn was that while business leaders really embrace the fact that you can save money with our solutions, and we're not competing against software, but sometimes we really are competing against labor. And if you can imagine, if you reduce workforce in a contact center from 100 to 30 people, that's a big cost saving, and if you can get a part of it, for us, it's very lucrative. But what you also can imagine is that on the floor, at that client, not everybody is as enthusiastic about the newest AI developments as we are. So we had to learn that we are not selling only technology, but we are merely selling a business transformation. And it also took a bit time for us to realize that actually we become better and better at selling and implementing this business transformation where clients go more effectively. So that was contact centers, and it was really successful and still is. And, of course of last year, we also saw a lot of traction on the marketing clouds, our other products. We are implementing more and more AI in our marketing products. That was to predict future behavior of clients to generate the right marketing content on the fly, and to highly personalize the communication. That's going well, it's going fast. And for this year, specifically 2026, we anticipate much more uptake in the marketing part of our clients as well. And that's good news because on average, a lot of businesses spend 10x more money in marketing than they do in their support. So we are tapping into bigger markets. Now, for that, we had to also update our platform. That was released last week, our context data platform, where our clients could really not only store data about the consumers, but our context data platform is really learning from all the data, like humans do, actually. And we hear and see a lot of things during the day, and at night, we think about it, we reflect a bit about the day, we're looking forward to the next day, and maybe even in our sleep, we learn, and we store all the data in our brain, and we replicate that idea in our new context data platform, and we store in the data, but then overnight, what we do -- what we call do context mining. So we mine all the data, and to bring it into context, we learn about behaviors of consumers, of our clients, and we reuse it into -- in future applications. I'll give you an example. We call to a brand and you ask "I ordered a T-shirt for my son's birthday, but I haven't received it yet. Can you please have a look when I can receive it?" Now, this is a typical where-is-my-order case, which we are very good at solving. 80% of the time, we can solve it autonomously with our AI and normally, it's just "Okay, yes, we just received your T-shirt. We send it out by post, and you will receive it tomorrow." That's a typical answer there. But what we now do is, with this context mining, overnight, our system thinks, "Oh, you have a son. He has a birthday, and that's next week." And maybe next time we communicate together, we could say, "Oh, how was your son's birthday? Did he like the T-shirt?" This is what humans do already for centuries, but technology wasn't capable of doing up till now. So there is a lot of innovation still to come and we expect a lot of growth for that, and also in the ARR. But step by step, we go forward. We are very advanced in the market. We have the newest products, like we were the first with Agentic AI in Europe last year. We're the first with this context mining, as you know, now. And we are always looking for front-running clients who want to embrace our newest ideas, specifically in Netherlands in the beginning, but then fastly replicating that success globally. So, yes, I think we are happy with the progress. And we will see growth not only with the software sales [indiscernible] or Agentic AI platform, but we believe it will also drive the transactions on our CPaaS, Payment, Ticketing platforms. It's a bit long answer, but I hope to answer your question, and sorry for being so enthusiastic about our technology.

No, that's, that's perfectly fine. Maybe with respect to growth in 2026 for not AI and SaaS, but the other 3 departments. I fully understand if you're not going to give a granular answer on each of them, but should we anticipate growth or is there a reason to be cautious on any one of them?

Yes. We had record volumes in messaging last quarter, and record volumes in payments also last quarter. So, the volumes are well. We've seen some price pressure on the messaging lately, so the revenue was a bit down there partly due to the volatile part of the business in the global messaging partly, and also we need to think about this, the dollar. The dollar today is 12.5% less valuable compared to the euro than it was a year ago. So the dollar currency is 12.5% down. As a global business, of course, we charge some of our clients in dollars and it's hard to fight against that, it grows. Now, let's see how that evolves this year. Of course, it can hedge a lot of things in currencies, which you cannot hedge your revenue. That's one thing. And also, we saw a few clients, big clients with -- who were hit a bit with the global tensions. So we are a global communication platform, so we help our clients to communicate from one part of the world towards the other part of the world. And this global economy had some tensions here and there, where a few of our biggest clients choose to send less messages than they did in the past. So that hurt us in the short term. And also, Geert already told -- spoke about, but also what we showed in our graphs in our presentation is that looking back 5 years ago, 40% of our revenue came from the top 10 clients. Today, only 30% comes from the top 10 clients, and all the way around 5 years ago, 30% of our revenue came from the smaller clients, so the top 100 clients. Today, 40% of our revenue comes from the most -- from the smaller clients, so not the top clients. So we're more and more diversified portfolio there, and more -- we're going to a more stable predictability, I think, in the future. That's how we look at it at least. And it's growing volumes in a diversified client portfolio. We expect to grow further, and hopefully the dollar-euro will actually help us a bit going forward. And then we'll see how it goes further, but it's indeed less predictable than ARR and other parts of the business. Now, looking at payments, records volume last quarter, great product portfolio. We are really making steps in making the payment business more scalable and also a bit leaner. We use 3 different platforms because of the positions we did take place through data in the past. We now -- almost at the end of bringing all those platforms together, we will make significant progress there in the coming months. We also launched a few breaking products, like we did in the past, with source post, for example, where you can install a payments application on just every mobile phone. There's some traction there. We have new terminals coming out in the near future, which will also will help be really, really successful in the live business on the cash register business. So we have a good -- we expect to progress the payments as well in the upcoming quarters.

It appears we have no more incoming questions, and with that, I will turn the call back over to Mr. Jeroen van Glabbeek and Mr. Geert Beullens for closing remarks.

All right. Thank you all very much. Thank you for joining on this call. And before I close -- before we close, I would like to note that this marks our first results call in this new leadership transition with our new CFO, Geert Beullens, and we are very pleased to have him on board and look forward to working together as we continue to execute our strategy and deliver long-term value. Thank you all for your continuous interest and support. We appreciate your time today and look forward to speaking with you again next quarter or earlier.