DocuSign, Inc. (DOCU) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hi. Good afternoon or good morning, or for those of you in Europe, thank you very much for staying up and joining us. I'm Kirk Materne. I'm the Head of Enterprise Software Research at Evercore. We're really excited to have Cynthia Gaylor with us from DocuSign. Cynthia is the Chief Financial Officer. And we're going to run through a fireside chat for about 30 -- 25 to 30 minutes. If you have any questions, please use the Q&A prompt within your Zoom app, and I'm happy -- I'd love to work those into the conversation. So just send those along and I'll get to them maybe about 25, 30 minutes after we get going. But Cynthia, thanks for joining us. It's great to have you here.

Obviously, you guys reported results last week. So just to kick things off on a really high note, why don't we walk through those results a little bit? And maybe I think most people, I assume, that are joining us have seen them. Maybe what surprised you about the quarter? What kind of drove the upside? And maybe we'll start there.

Sure. Terrific. And Kirk, thanks for having us. It's great to be here, and looking forward to seeing folks, hopefully, here soon. But yes, thank you. We were super pleased with the quarter. And I think a couple of kind of highlights, and I'm sure some of you have kind of seen our results, but north of 50% revenue growth, north of 50% billings growth. We posted 20% operating margin for the first time in the company's history. Super strong net retention rate at 125%, which was a record for the company as a public company. So we were super pleased. We also saw a lot of strength kind of across the board, particularly in EMEA, but international hit a record with $100 million of revenue and 84% year-on-year growth. So just kind of across the board, we were really pleased with the strength we saw across the business.

That's great. And I should mention Annie just joined us, and she's the VP of Investor Relations. So I just want to say hi to you. Thanks for being here as well, Annie. Maybe, Cynthia, just on the net retention and the dollar-based net retention statistic, you mentioned 125% sort of an all-time high. One of the questions I got last week a little bit was people trying to figure out how much of that was just kind of consumption-based upside from existing customers, maybe versus new products or new use cases. I'm sure it's really hard to sort of delineate on that from your perspective. But is there any way we should think about that? Because that number has obviously moved up pretty materially over the last couple of years or last year.

Yes. It was really strong, and it's really -- gives us a lot of confidence just in customer consumption patterns, right, which is something that we've been focused on, but I think this was the first quarter kind of getting a lens into kind of the COVID cohort as some folks have been calling it, but also just the strength in kind of the historical cohorts as well. And so when I think about the dollar net retention, I kind of put it in a couple of different categories. There were the folks who came to DocuSign during the pandemic, so in Q1 of last year, who now showed up for the first time in that dollar net retention number. Those folks, perhaps some of them bought conservatively in the beginning of the pandemic, right? They needed kind of they had an urgent need to come on to the platform. They bought conservatively but they also over consumed the subscription that they purchased. And so we use that -- as a reminder, we're a capacity-based model. So we use that as an opportunity to really renew the customer and expand their subscription with us. So we kind of had kind of strong consumption within the new cohort. But maybe even more importantly, kind of the historical cohorts, we had some -- we had folks who perhaps had a subscription with DocuSign. We're partially through that subscription, and they didn't have to renew it because the term wasn't up yet, but they also showed strong consumption trends and use that as an opportunity to renew. That shows up in that net retention number. And then probably the third category -- and there's kind of all different flavors of these, so just kind of giving you kind of a sense of the complexity but also the depth, there were folks who perhaps renewed during last year who renewed conservatively just given the macro environment and the unknown. But once people come on to the platform and they see kind of just the strong ROI, it's really a value play, right? It saves time. It saves money. It's more secure. It's faster. People stay with the platform. And so you can think about it as kind of consumption of core products. You can think about it as expansion in use cases or just using more because it's easier and faster. And as we often say, and you've probably heard many times from Dan and others, once people go from pen and paper to something that's more digital and easy and they can do in the app, they can do on their phone, they can do pretty much anywhere, they don't go back to pen and paper. And so I think we're just seeing kind of that durability of the business model, and that shows up in the net retention number. And in some ways, it showed up in our upside to revenue, some of those same trends.

Okay. That's really helpful. Maybe just one sort of micro question along those points. Do you guys -- I realize these are all sort of -- you guys have only gone through a few cohorts, at least as a public company. But I was kind of curious, is the year 1 to 2 jump in sort of usage the one where you maybe get the biggest lift? I'm just kind of curious if there's anything where, to your point, you guys are sort of a traditional land-and-expand model. So the land is always going to be sort of less over a period of time than the expand. But I was wondering if there's any sort of, I don't know, patterns you've seen between, say, year 1 renewal versus year 2 versus year 3. And -- or those -- I'm sure COVID has also muddied the waters on those a lot, too. But I was just kind of curious if there's any patterns you've seen on that front.

Yes. I think -- I mean it's a really good point. I mean the company has been around for 17 years. And even when we went public, right, we had historical net retention data. So we do look at that, the different cohorts and how they're used. But I would say it tends to start out small, and then expansions don't tend to be massive, right? A lot of our customers start out digital and it's kind of free to paid and then paid to expand. And then a lot of those digital customers then move to direct and become direct customers. Even some of our biggest customers have started out as digital. So it's really a journey, but there's just a very long tail of that journey, which, again, I think just points to when you think about us as going from the -- our customer base being kind of the smallest mom and pops to the biggest enterprises and then everything in between, we just have a lot of diversity in our customer set that really just gives us a lot of durability kind of over time that I think we're really starting to see the power of some of those metrics come through.

Well, I like Dan's comment on the quarter, too, about the mobile and direct guys always getting their customers stolen by the -- or the mobile guys getting their customers stolen by the direct guys. So they have to kind of run on a faster pace on that treadmill. So given the number of new customers, the score is really impressive on that side as well. So I know that was a funny comment. Those kudos were well deserved, I guess.

Yes. There's a lot of arm-wrestling that happens over here.

One category they go into. Another obvious, well, real strength of many in the quarter was international, which was up sequentially, albeit up a ton sequentially, but 80-plus percent growth is impressive. What's going on internationally, if you will? I think if you look at download trends and some of the stuff that we can kind of scrape on, I mean the download trends internationally for you all are really, really strong. I'd imagine monetization in international markets is obviously more difficult like any other company. So what's going on in the international market? And you mentioned EMEA being strong. So I was just kind of curious where you think those trends are.

Yes. Yes. I mean international for us is probably our biggest untapped growth opportunity. I mean we're seeing a lot of growth kind of across the globe. But I'd say our international markets, right, is just really underpenetrated. And it's been a focus area over the last year or 2. But we're seeing a lot of the same trends internationally that we saw kind of in North America when North America was of similar size. And I think Dan also said on the call that, in some pockets, we're also seeing more accelerated growth than we saw at comparable size for kind of the core earlier in the company's history. So that's all really encouraging. From a direct perspective, we're in 8 core countries And we recently opened Mexico as a Spanish-speaking LATAM channel, but -- or direct -- I should say, direct channel, but to further penetrate Latin America, not channel-channel. And so we've -- we are making more direct investments. But also just as a reminder, we are in over 180 countries, and a lot of that is from our digital. And so as we think about digital as not only lead gen and kind of driving some of the network effect that we see, we also use that as kind of the tea leaves of what markets may be the next best markets to go in direct because, as you know, it requires investment. We also -- just given international is 20-ish, 21% of the revenue right now, we just feel like there's just so much untapped even in the 8 core markets that we're in, that we will go into more direct. But we also want to take our time and make sure we set it up right and that we set those teams up for success as we do that. So it's a big opportunity. It's our biggest growth opportunity, and we're making a lot of investment there.

Is it fair to assume that, yes, sort of product market fit catches at different times within different countries, meaning even within EMEA, I assume some companies are maybe ahead of others? Because Europe is obviously -- yes, every country is its own unique animal. So is that a fair assumption that it just takes some time to kind of get that mix correct?

Yes, for sure. I think there's different local laws and when it comes to agreements and signatures and what's accepted and what's not. And so going into each market and making -- localizing the product for what the requirements are is really important. And so we do a lot of kind of prework, particularly with the on-the-ground teams but also the legal teams, understanding the agreement process and the local customs and laws to make sure that the products were standing up and the innovation, right? And that's aside from language conversion and things like that, which we do across the globe.

Okay. Maybe the last thing on the quarter, in particular, was that margins were really strong. You all have a really unique model in terms of your unit economic model is incredibly strong. But your guidance obviously infers a fair amount of investment in the back half of the year. Can you just kind of remind us kind of what you're maybe pressing the gas pedal on from an investment perspective, if it's sales and marketing, R&D? What are the things that you're sort of specifically aiming to ramp up from a spend perspective? I imagine international is obviously going to be one of those as well.

Sure. Yes, for sure, international. I would also say our goal was not to hit 20% margin in Q1. But when you see so much upside on the top line, it's very difficult to reinvest in quarter, right? And so our goal is to reinvest throughout the year for the big growth opportunity ahead of us. Again, there's just so much greenfield space because our biggest competitor is really off-line to online and people who are still using pen and paper to make agreements happen. And so it's a big opportunity, and we're the market leader. So really investing for growth is really important. I think the interesting thing about the 20% margin is it really just shows leverage in the model, right? So if we can continue to grow at these rates, make the right investments over time, we hit the bottom end of our long-term target, which we're still a few years off from sustainably being at. So it's just really encouraging to see kind of that operations at scale. But our goal is not to stay at that margin, but to really reinvest for the top line piece. In terms of areas, I think international is a big area for us. As I said, that's the biggest growth area. And what that really means is kind of some of the product stuff, we were talking about product innovation across the Agreement Cloud but also what's required to go into different international markets, localizing the product. The other piece is really building sales capacity, right? You noted the net new customers, right? And those are our expansions of the future that drive the net retention rate. So adding new customers and building that sales capacity is really important. Last year, we spent a lot of time catching up to the demand, right, building our capacity to catch up with the accelerated demand we saw. This year, we're really investing and leaning into building out more capacity to continue to be able to grow at scale. So I would say sales and marketing and then R&D and innovation across the Agreement Cloud but also internationally across both of those is really important.

Yes, and Dan has mentioned a couple of times, maybe at least when I've talked to him, about sort of the understanding of who DocuSign is internationally is obviously a lot farther behind the U.S., and I assume some of that's just size and scale. Is there anything that's really holding it back, I guess, internationally, other than just sort of a bigger marketing effort? I realized you probably have to do it on a country-by-country basis. Is there anything sort of structural? Or is it just sort of putting the money where you need to, to create that market awareness? It seems like it's the latter, but I just want to make sure that, that's the case.

Yes, it is. It's a really good point. I mean part of it, too, is prioritization, right? Companies that are growing so quickly is making sure you're prioritizing and then you kind of have an ROI on the investments you're making. So marketing, we've done very little brand marketing as a company but also locally. So I think you'll see us leaning more into brand marketing more generally. We do, do quite a bit on the digital side, right, because that is a lead gen sort of business that then drives demand both in the digital channel but also in our direct channel. So you will see us -- when I say sales and marketing, it's about building sales capacity but that also requires the supporting marketing dollars.

That's helpful. So one of the questions I've gotten a lot over the last week, actually, it's always funny. is around CLM. And it's always one of those things where you're like can't you just enjoy the Signature's upside right now. But obviously, as forward-looking investors, people are always looking for what's next. How should we think about sort of dimensionalizing that or thinking about the opportunity? And I guess the other question that came up a lot, which I think is a good one, which is what does that do from a -- is it still a small land and then expand? Or has it changed potentially the dimensions on the land for companies if they go down the path with you all with CLM in particular?

Yes. That's a really good observation and also a really good question. So I appreciate that. Yes, I think when we think about CLM, we really are thinking about the Agreement Cloud, right? And CLM is a piece of that, right? But it's really an extension of Signature and the core eSignature. And we see customers who are eSignature customers who then start kind of down the Agreement Cloud journey and start looking at products and they see the ROI on Signature that they know their strong ROI and they start to experience strong ROI, and they want to figure out what else they could do with us strategically. So we're seeing traction both in CLM but also kind of in the AI kind of the Seal type of products, and that's a real differentiator for us. But what I would say is, and just caution, is it is very small dollars, right? And so we're encouraged by the early traction that we have but it's really small dollars, and it's even a more fragmented market than the signature market, right? And so we would expect and we're very focused on growing our product platform and our portfolio around Signature to really address the Agreement Cloud, but it's kind of a long-term investment and a long-term journey, right? And we think very long term about building the company. We're pretty confident, and we've said this, that we can get to $5 billion of revenue on eSignature alone. We likely could get to $10 billion when you think about a $50 billion market opportunity. But what we're looking to do is build a durable company for the long term. And CLM or the Agreement Cloud, more broadly, is a really critical component of that. And it's such early days. It's important for us to invest and kind of be the leader and take advantage of our first-mover advantage in all these areas to continue to build on the success that we've seen. So we're very focused on investment there, particularly around product innovation but also finding customers that can be kind of flagship customers to kind of grow with us on the platform.

And because it's part of the Agreement Cloud, do you need a specialized sales force to kind of go after that? Or can most of your -- I'm obviously speaking about the direct side of the business. Can most of your sales reps pretty much talk to that to a pretty good level of detail, maybe not to a sales specialist point of view? But they can make the intro to the right customer, talk about the, say, the Agreement Cloud at a high level. Is that fair?

Yes, that's fair. And I think there is specialization within that, right, depending on -- particularly on the product side or on the engineering side, where we bring in experts, but our field can talk to kind of the full platform and product suite.

Okay. That's great. Next thing I want to talk to you about, now that I feel like we can officially take you off the work-from-home list on CNBC every day, so we can start talking about choosing nonwork from-home company after last quarter. I did want to talk to you about sort of ESG and sort of what that means from a customer perspective for you all because I feel like while work-from-home goes away, whatever the new normal is, the new normal is going to have a higher component of ESG that's going to be important for almost every company, especially public companies. So I know when we talked to Dan last week, it's kind of moving its way up the priority list in terms of what customers are asking for. But is it helping right now? Do you see that becoming a bigger driver of deals? I realize I'm sort of looking at a little while, but I was just kind of curious on any thoughts you might have. Especially as a CFO, that's going to deliver your own carbon capture and things like that as we get people back on the road again.

Yes, for sure. And it's something that's top of mind for us as a company and as a management team just for DocuSign proper. And we are seeing -- as Dan mentioned on the call last week, we are seeing more pull from customers around this topic, right? And we've been kind of the leader not only by our product but by our actions internally of leading from the front on ESG, and that will continue to be the case. But we are seeing more early traction with customers who are also seeing the benefits, right? And it's becoming more important on the investor radar as well, right, in terms of how they think about companies and their investments and kind of the longer-term opportunities.

And do you think that's resonating? I don't know if you keep track of like the level of engagement you have at another company. It seems to me that, that almost helps take you up to more of a C-suite discussion versus -- not that having a discussion with the IT buyer or the business buyer. In certain cases, doesn't make sense. But I mean, do you think that's helping raise your profile also within your customers that are buying that are concerned about this topic in particular?

I think so. I think DocuSign, the beauty of the product, it can be sold to a lot of different people and a lot of different use cases within companies. But it also can be a very strategic sale, particularly with the broader Agreement Cloud, right? And with Signature, we might see things happening within departments. When you're talking about agreements, it could start in departments, but it could also be kind of a C-suite discussion. So it kind of comes in all shapes and flavors. But the ESG part of the discussion certainly is a more strategic level discussion. I'd actually be interested in how many of our conversations start with ESG versus start with the business need. My sense is it still probably starts with the business need and moving things from pen and paper to digital. But I do believe it's going to become a bigger and bigger part of the company's story and the agenda of our customers that we can help them be successful on the ESG front as well.

Yes. No, I think that it will be -- I think we did our initiation. It was the first time I looked at how much paper tonnage is used in the U.S. 1.5 years ago. So there's some pretty good opportunities for people to save on that front. One of the things that didn't come up, I don't think, on the call last week was actually just the federal opportunity, which is still a big market opportunity for you all in its own right. How are things going on that front? I know you guys have had a lot of success and progress, and like every other industry, I think, that are under a lot of pressure to modernize their own business applications and business functions. So where are we on that front? And kind of what's your thought on that as we go over the next couple of years?

Sure. Yes. Federal is another big opportunity, again, largely untapped, right? But as you know, that requires investments on our front, and we've been making investments over the last several years, whether it's in IL4 or kind of our data set, dedicated data center space and those types of things that set us up for success within federal, but it's also the type of thing. And based on my past experiences, once you kind of turn on the spigot and you get within the federal, it just can provide a very good growth opportunity. So we're really excited about the progress we've made and the investments we've made, but we're in the early innings. I think Dan likes to say, it moves slowly. But it's moving in a good direction. So we're excited about the opportunity there, but it's early days. The other piece I would -- I mentioned, I know we talk about federal a lot but we've seen a lot of good progress as well in public sector more generally, right? So whether that's state or local or community governments and kind of the government, school districts, things like that have been really kind of a greenfield space that I think COVID certainly helped kind of turn on some of those programs. So we're really encouraged by kind of public sector and what we're seeing across that vertical.

When you go to a vertical like federal, where you have business processes that are old and haven't maybe been updated in a long time, are you -- at what point are you just trying to -- I mean, a land and expand within federal seems like a more complicated process perhaps than landing because the land is so big in nature. So do you go in with partners usually? Can you leverage -- you guys have obviously a giant ecosystem of application partners and names like Salesforce and others. Where are some of the wins coming from? Is it just simply you guys going in there and having to knock on enough doors and find one personnel try it out? Or can you start at maybe a higher level and get a bigger land and somewhere like that just because of the nature of the market, I guess?

Yes. That's an astute observation. So I think federal, we're still learning, but for the most part, we do go through partners who have even different certifications than we do with the federal government. And so we partner with -- I'm not going to name names because I don't think we've publicly disclosed that and it will reach through the screen here. But we do have different partners, more traditional partners who sell to the federal government more in like an ISV reseller type of arrangement that we partner with, and we've seen some early traction. In terms of size and land and expand, I don't think we talk about the numbers specifically, but I think your comments are fair, but I think it's kind of early innings. So we'll think to that more.

Okay. That's helpful. And then I guess just sticking on sort of the vertical part of the discussion, what vertical? I mean, obviously, you guys made your name in real estate banking. I think everybody is very well aware of what you all have done in a lot of those industries. What are some of the ones that are up and coming, in your view, might provide a little bit of a tailwind? I think Dan mentioned that even hospitality, travel isn't all the way back from COVID yet, so that would seem to be a potential natural tailwind for you in the next year or so. But any verticals that are popping up on your radar screen that maybe a year ago would have been something that we won't have noticed? Or had it sort of hit the -- COVID may have helped them along, frankly, in terms of digitizing? So just kind of curious if you have any thoughts on that.

Yes. I mean, again, the diversity of our business is just one thing that I'm personally very excited about, right, both in terms of size of customer but just kind of across verticals. I think Dan is spot on. There are some verticals that were harder hit during COVID, who we are just beginning to see come back online. So it will be interesting to watch those segments and see how they perform. I think you hit the right ones in terms of strength. We've seen strength across the board but financial, financial services, kind of that fintech space, real estate. Health care, life sciences, I think, is another one. A lot of the big pharma, multinational companies have taken parts of their supply chain onto our platform. So not just like -- and that's not to mention like health care, life sciences around just paper forms in -- with patients, right? We've seen a lot of traction there as well. So I think there's different forms of that, but that might be the third or fourth one, I would note, as just we're seeing some interesting consumption dynamics around that vertical. But really, strength across the board and some of these verticals that were more turned off during COVID, kind of seeing how they come back online and what that looks like, I think, will be interesting to watch.

Okay. One more for me, and then I'll -- I've got a couple of questions actually on -- sent in via e-mail. Just AI and analytics, you obviously bought Seal. I think you brought it up in conjunction with CLM, which makes tons of sense, which is how can you use the Agreement Cloud to help you not only sort of manage your document but the processes around them, right? How can you take it from being sort of passive to proactive in terms of reaching out to customers? Where are you on that? And kind of how should we measure progress on that front? Because I think it's a question -- it seems like AI is almost becoming part and parcel for any large SaaS company that it's almost table stakes in terms of being able to take advantage of it to deliver better value to their customers. How should we think about progress? Where is it going to show up? What are the things maybe you're monitoring at a high level that we can keep an eye on?

Yes. I think it will show up across the Agreement Cloud, really in product innovation, probably first and foremost, right? It's going to be integrated into the platform. We have seen some customers where it's been a competitive differentiator, customers who maybe chose a different path at a different company and then have come back for AI because they realize the company or the product that they chose either wasn't scalable, wasn't secure or didn't have adequate. And so we're really encouraged kind of by what we're seeing just on the product innovation front. And we think that AI component and what we got with Seal will be a differentiator on the product front. And so we'll continue to invest there and get it more and more integrated into the platform.

Okay. That's great. Actually, I'm going to sneak one extra one, which is you guys have done a number of sort of tuck-in acquisitions, I would say, in general. Is that generally the way you -- I mean you guys are the market leader. So there's not really any large deal that's, say, right in your wheelhouse right now. Kind of how do you think about sort of use of cash and more tuck-in acquisitions to just fill out the Agreement Cloud? Is that kind of the most obvious way, I guess, for you guys to use your cash in the near term? Or anything else people should kind of keep in mind on that front?

Yes, it's a good point. I mean we have so much greenfield organic growth ahead of us. And as the market leader, we feel really good about our position and ability to kind of build capacity and grow into the market opportunity. We'll continue to do kind of team, talent, product acquisitions. We actually announced that we acquired Clause.io a couple of weeks ago, right? And that's really around the clauses and agreements. And so I think you would -- and we've acquired the company mainly for the team's expertise, right, to help us kind of build out the product category. So we're really excited about deals like that. We think things that we can kind of put into the platform or expertise, either from an IP perspective or a team perspective, you'll continue to see us be acquisitive in that way. So I think you're spot on in that observation.

Okay. First question is just around notary, just in how is it going thus far, and what's kind of the opportunity in the near term? So just maybe -- just touch upon how that's going and where it is in terms of beta, things like that, that would be great.

Yes. Yes. So we're in kind of the early days. And we're -- we have customers who are using kind of the first-party notary, so active customers. People are certainly -- customers are chomping at the bit to get a notary. Nobody likes to go to the notary whether or not there's COVID or not. So we think it's a big opportunity. But we think it's an extension of eSignature, right, across the Agreement Cloud but in a different way than things like AI or CLM, right? It's really a product extension to eSignature. And then we're also working on kind of third-party notary later this year. I'd expect it to have some other announcements around that. But first party, so far, so good. I think people are excited about it. Customers are using it. And so more on that kind of as we move forward.

That sounds good. And I realized the answer to this is a little bit chicken and egg, but the question is really about system integrator partners and what you're seeing in terms of building out the ecosystem on that front. Yes, I realize they don't really show up until there's a market. So sometimes, as you grow the market, you'll have more friends, I'm sure. But where are you on that front? Are you able to get in more conversations just because of the breadth of the Agreement Cloud now? I'd imagine just your product portfolio makes you a lot more attractive, not that they wouldn't want to meet with you. But there's a lot more things from a business process perspective they can go talk to their clients about. So where are we just on that front the GSIs, I guess?

Yes. So I would say our strategy there is probably more in kind of the regional and the smaller players, right? And customer success, we haven't talked about too much, but that's a really important component and helps drive our net retention rates. And so we're very focused on customer success. But we partner with a lot of the regional -- smaller regional folks. And we do think the larger -- the GSIs will be interested as we build out the market. And we have some projects going on with different larger folks. But our real focus right now is with the smaller regional teams who can really help our customers get successful on the platform.

Okay. And maybe last one because we have a few minutes, just from me, actually. When -- you all have a great number of really large customers that use you, are they all global? Meaning are a lot of those Fortune -- yes, everybody's got you. You have a lot of Fortune 500. But have the preponderance of them gone global with you? Or are there a lot that are still using you just regionally? I know you can't really give me a specific breakout of percentage, but just kind of curious about have most of them kind of made a decision on a global basis? Or is it still predominantly regionally used?

Yes. There's probably not like one answer to that, right? It's very customer-by-customer dependent, but we do have a lot of large multinationals. For the most part -- I would say, for the most part, all or none are penetrated like -- or fully penetrated. So even within the customers we're in, we still have a lot of ramp. It does tend to be a department-by-department sale, although we do have some RFPs that are more for global type of -- global type of contracts. But what we really want to do is not oversell customers. We want to sell them what they need and then have them expand as they see value. And so that's what we're most focused on. But what I would say is across our customer base, whether it's the largest enterprises and then deep into kind of that commercial mid-market majors, we're scratching the surface with the vast majority of the customers in terms of just early days even in our implementations.

Super, super. Well, we have about a minute left, so maybe I'll cut it there as I don't see any other questions. Cynthia and Annie, thanks very much for joining us. Congrats on a great start to the year. And if anybody on the webinar has some follow-up questions, please e-mail Annie. Or if you want to get in touch with me, you know how to reach out. So I'll leave it there. Have a great afternoon, everybody, and thanks for joining us.