F-Secure Oyj (FSECURE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Welcome, everybody, to F-Secure's Quarter Three results session. Good to have you all with us online as well as here in the room, physically in Helsinki, Finland. Now when we were thinking about the right header for our quarter three results release, we were thinking about building the fundamentals for growth. We've been working on that for quite some time. We've had that header for a few times, and we thought of other transformative things that we've been busy with in the last months. And we realized that we made tons of concrete progress on the front of AI-powered business. And we decided that that's the right header for this time. I'll get back to that later. But now let's dig into the results of quarter three. So first of all, in line with what we indicated in July, we were looking for low single-digit growth in the business in currency-neutral terms, and that's precisely what we got. So we were developing the business slower than what we expected in the beginning of the year, but in line with what we indicated earlier in quarter three. The weaker U.S. dollar continued weakening, unfortunately, during quarter three. So that didn't give us any kind of, let's say, wind behind our back. But in currency-neutral terms, is what matters most, how we did. Now we did regular work in terms of focusing on our strategy execution, making sure that our capability and maturity to serve Tier 1 partners, win business, deliver services, and produce the services in operation are strengthened, and we continued that work on all fronts in technology, services, product. In terms of operational excellence, we've been building new capabilities, for instance, in terms of service. We've started introducing AI-powered capabilities and agentic AI into our repertoire. And then in commercial performance, we have several different initiatives ongoing to increase our capabilities and improve and develop our capabilities to service all the different segments of customers and partners that we are working with. Now with regards to commercial activity towards Tier 1s, in a way, two fronts. One is that we signed a couple of new deals, both extensions to our existing partnerships. One was in a groundbreaking area, which is very much on top of everybody's agendas right now, deep fake detection and deep fakes now reflecting deep fake videos, deep fake images, and so forth. And the difficult part in all of this is not only to identify deep fakes, but to understand which of these deep fakes actually have a malicious intent. So it is the combination of the two deep fake and malicious intent that we need to be identifying. And this is the deal that we signed now with a major embedded partner in Asia, and which we are delivering in the next months, and then which will go live early part of next year. The second Tier 1 deal that we did as an extension was that a Tier 1 insurance player is integrating through embedded capabilities, some of our consumer security SDKs, and cloud APIs into their own app. And this is precisely the kind of development we want to see. This will lower once again the adoption threshold for these insurance companies, customers to adopt our service, as they don't need a separate app, they don't need to establish new credentials. They don't need to learn how to use a new application. It is an application they hopefully already have. So that's a good development. And we're looking forward to that one being, in a way, a reference, hopefully, a very successful one at that of a noncommunication service provider integrating our capabilities into their app and thus, once again, us being able to service a much wider group of consumers out there. Now I will talk more about the next bullet point, which is about the AI transformation. I'll get back to that a few slides from now. And finally, something I have reiterated together with our CFO, Sari Somerkallio, a few times in the past quarterly results is that we continue -- after these extensions, we still continue to have a very strong pipeline of further Tier 1 deals that we're actively working on. Then coming back to our strategic 2025 priorities that we have referred to earlier. So there are three things. One is that we are definitely looking at growth, especially through Tier 1 partnerships. And the list of names that you can see on this slide on the left are the kinds of targets that we want to go after and serve. Some of them we are serving already. Some of them have signed a deal with us, and we're in the process of implementing services for them, and some of them are yet to be joining the F-Secure team. So that's the focus. I'll get back to what kind of progress we've made. I referred to already some of those. In the middle, we absolutely want to be the leaders in the scam protection market. And lo and behold, once again, we have some good proof that we're making progress on that front, getting recognition for our efforts. And finally, becoming data and AI-powered business. We made lots and lots of progress in that front during 2025. I'll get back to those things. So these are the priorities that we will be measuring our success against. Now with regards to the Tier 1 partnerships, I already mentioned the extensions with an extended -- sorry, an existing partner in Asia and another one with an insurance company. In addition to that, we've also signed up a new deal in Asia with a partner that is at the top of that country's top 3 as a service provider. We also extended with one of our U.S. partners to also cover scam protection, so they have been a long-time partner with Total, but now they also expanded into scan protection. And also a Nordic banking partner, a big one at that, is expanding their total offering with scan protection. So if you look at these kinds of things that we're actually signing up in our business, be it Tier 1s or major partners, they all have one thing in common. It is scam protection that is actually having great traction in the market. And we have an offering both on the embedded security side as well as on the Total side. And that's something where we expect to see clear growth also going forward in the coming quarters and years. It is the right place at the right time for us. With regards to how did we do in scam protection? Then we were named Cybersecurity Solution of the Year for Telecommunications by Cybersecurity Breakthrough Awards just a week or 2 ago, which is once again recognition of our efforts, especially as mentioned here, state-of-the-art anti-scam technology building trust and providing value for hundreds of millions of end users who are behind the partners that we are serving. So that's a great award that we have won and a great recognition of our efforts on this front, and being at the forefront of scam protection rollout to the market out there. Secondly, in 2024, we launched our scam protection module as part of Total. Also, we have provided to the market a wide range of embedded security capabilities that have to do with scam protection, and we have continued with the vengeance in 2025. So not only have we built further the efficacy of the things that we did in 2024, because the scam market is evolving practically every single hour, every single day. So what we launched back then, we can't just, let's say, rest on our laurels and let that be. We need to be developing it further all the time. So active development has gone on, for instance, in protecting people from SMS-related scams. But we've also introduced new capabilities such as instant messaging scams on WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger, which are very, very common. I'm relatively certain that all of you on this stream have seen some of these WhatsApp and/or Facebook Messenger scams in the past couple of years personally. Also, the new area for us is now detection of deep fake scams, be they videos, phone calls, or images. We are still yet to launch new capabilities in 2025. I would say that there is no lack of potential areas of scam that we still need to be developing further. Also, in terms of, let's say, I already said, a right time in the right place. I would say that this digital perception reality gap report that we came out with roughly 2 to 3 weeks ago, just highlights the need for scam protection capabilities. 74% of consumers out there, based on our most recent survey, are confident that they can recognize a scam when they bump into one. Yet 43% of these people have still fallen for scams. So, there is a clear, in a way, confidence that consumers have, but it seems like it's relatively unfounded. So we have to be able to bring scam protection capabilities to people who don't believe in their capabilities to spot a scam, and the ones who do believe so, and make sure that people have better protection from the get-go. And one good way to do so is embedded security within the telco, financial, and digital services sectors. So the time for embedding these capabilities is more necessary than ever to keep the overly confident consumers safe from scams. And finally, getting into the AI transformation and the kind of progress we've made on that front. So on one hand, we've taken into use very widely AI tools, large language models, generative AI tools in the company, in our day-to-day operations, how we manage our personnel work in teams and in business units and in our functional units. So this is not just something that people are doing as a learning exercise. We are looking at quality, customer service, documentation, secure coding, code generation, testing, sales functions, and so forth. It's coming everywhere. And I won't be able to provide you with a precise number, in a way, percentage of the lines of code that we're now generating using AI-powered tools. But I can assure you that compared to our peer group here in our home country, Finland, we are at a very high level of application, a very high level of application of AI-powered tools. At the same time, we need to be extra careful with secure coding practices, making sure that we have clear frameworks for how do we protect our customers ' and end customers' private data while we're using generative AI. So, we've paid a lot of attention to make sure that privacy is also covered as well as it has always been so that we don't compromise any data because of the use of AI-powered tools. So even though we've been careful on this front, we've been able to make a lot of progress. Now a couple of things I want to highlight that are going to be visible for our partners and our users out there are 2 new initiatives in a way, you could call them greenfield initiatives that build on the capabilities we already have, for instance, as SDKs and cloud APIs. One is Horizon, which we launched at our global partner event in May, which is an AI-powered partner business platform, which helps us onboard and support the growth of the business of our partners in mass. So, we hope to be able to serve not 150 or 200, but 1,000 or 10,000 partners in a cost-efficient manner where the service level that they get is actually better than what we can provide with our own staff being always heavily involved in driving success of our partners, marketing, sales enablement type of things. So, we're building a completely AI-powered system on the Internet, which allows our partners to grow their business with minimum, in a way, human interruption or contribution, building on our best practices of the worldwide community of partners we have. So that's one. That's Horizon. Then Halo is a new end customer service. It's a mobile-first scam protection app that we're building. And that also is something which is completely AI-powered not only in the way that the service operates. Just like Horizon, they are both using the latest best practices in processes, practices, tooling that AI now provides us. So, the development cycles are fast, yet quality documentation, secure coding practices are followed to the last dotting of the eye and crossing of the Ts. So, these are crucial aspects in developing our business, not only to produce completely new kind of AI-powered results, but also apply AI-powered working processes and methods and tooling. It's turned out to be very, very positive experience so far. So that's it for me. I will get back on the stage together with Sari, our CFO, in a moment, but now it's time for her to go through the financials.

Thanks, Timo. Okay. So, let's look at the financials for this quarter. If we start with our partner channel partner business. So here, our revenue grew by 0.4%, which is clearly lower than our ambition, but also impacted by the FX rates. And we split this development into the embedded services and security suite. And as you know, embedded is the side that we are now really focusing on. And there, the growth is above 10%. So that's a nice number. And that has been driven by Japan. It's a super good development that we have in Japan. But I need to say that U.S. is the biggest part of that embedded number. So, in Japan, the growth number is clearly tens of percentages, as most of that number comes from the U.S. And in the U.S., there we have both Security Suite and Embedded, and there, the embedded numbers that development has been more positive than the security suite, where we had this one customer with changed pricing structure, and also some legacy customers who have not converted into the new total era and thus are lagging behind. And there on Security suite, there are many positive things like total conversion continues well, and ARPU is growing. And this you can see then, especially in the Nordics numbers where Sweden and Finland are really performing well, and it's related to the total conversion. DACH region is also showing very nice signs, except for Germany, where we have already for several quarters said that there is one customer that is churning quite rapidly, and it continues to have an impact. There are also some other, let's say, legacy customers who have not converted to total, who are also then declining, but this Germany is the biggest case. If we look at the direct business, so declining 5.9%, and this continues to the trend that we've seen in the past. So good development with retention rate of existing customers and good ARPU development. But then we don't have good success with new sales because we are not investing in customer acquisition. And that is per our strategy. And actually, these numbers are quite positive compared to our sort of worst expectations. And looking at the total, so currency-neutral change is plus 1.3%. That is in this ballpark of our low single-digit growth. But of course, our ambition has been higher than this. And you see in this rest of the world, 17.4%. So that is definitely driven by Japan, which is now the stellar market that we have. In North America, currency neutral is flattish, and that's a mixed bag where we have some positives, but also negatives. So like we've had in the header that it's a mixed bag. And rest of Europe, we talked already about the Germany, which is the key one, but also some other countries where we have declining customers. And Nordics is where you see the success of total conversion where ARPU is growing. And in general, it's developing very well and continues a good trend that we've seen also during previous quarters. Looking at the cost side. So of course, here we are balancing with investing in the future growth, but still ensuring that the profitability is in place today. So you see some changes in the cost structure. So overall, we are on the level of last year. But you see that sales and marketing cost is proportionately lower than before. And there, retail channel is an area where we have invested less than previously and spending less marketing in that area, and that's a key driver for the changes. Also, last winter, there were some structural changes, which also are having an impact. And then on the other hand, you see that R&D investment is going up. And there, the overall activity is a little bit higher than previously. And in this quarter, we had less capitalization. So that's why you see a clearly higher number in the P&L in R&D. In terms of profitability, if we first look at gross margin, now at 83.9%. It is lower than we've seen before, and it's partly driven by the growth in embedded, which we have said that has lower profitability than Security suite. But partly, it is also a result of the lower volumes where we have with our vendors. We have contracts where higher volumes would be beneficial. So here, definitely, growth will then help with that number. So that's slightly disappointing from our point of view. The overall profitability then with adjusted EBITDA being at EUR 13.3 million or 37%. So of course, 37% is clearly lower than the EUR 40.3 million from last year, but last year was exceptionally good. In general, we always have good profitability in Q3 because revenue is fairly stable, but costs are always lower. There's just less activity in Q3. So I would say this 37% is a good number, and last year was just exceptionally good. And if we look at the year-to-date development, currency-neutral growth, 1.2%. So as said before, we want to be higher, and expectations are higher for Q4. So even if we are on lower level than originally, so still this applies that we have expectations for the second half. And in terms of EBITDA, so now year-to-date, 34.8%. The full year guidance is 32% to 35%. So we are close to the upper range. But now, of course, good Q3 helped with that, and should not expect to see 37% in Q4. So I would say, well within the range we have guided previously. Cash flow was on a good level. Cash conversion, 78%. It's sort of an average number. So no drama here. It's a good number, and we are happy with that, and sort of demonstrates our normal performance there. And outlook, no changes here. We continue to expect low single-digit currency-neutral growth and profitability, 32% to 35%. And of course, here, then the FX can have an impact on this because, of course, if lower FX, then our weaker USD has an impact on the reported growth, which partly flows through to the result. But I don't see any issues with the guidance. So this is what we are working towards. This is the story, very simple from a financials point of view this quarter. And now with Timo, we are happy to answer any questions that there are.

A couple of questions. You mentioned in the security suite that there was a U.S. customer who had lowered prices. Is that somehow dependent on the volumes that the customer has, or step down in price if the volume increases? Or is that just a new price negotiation?

That's a story we told already in the previous quarter. So the pricing structure has been changed. It was a renewal of the contract with new structure. And of course, it's been built so that we expect positive impact in long-term, but there was a short-term negative impact.

Just out of curiosity, when you talk about the sales pipeline for the embedded contracts, what kind of numbers are we talking about? A couple more than five, more than 10.

We're looking for meaningful, significant contracts. I will not refer to any kind of million numbers, but we're looking at meaningful agreements from a company perspective.

Then regarding the direct business, you have had a declining top line there because you don't invest in new sales, and now the revenue decline rate has been more than 5% annually. If you don't start investing in 2026, should we assume that the similar rate of decline would continue in '26 and '27?

I think that's a fair assumption, of course. We see in our billings every quarter, there are quite big changes. So it's not a sort of even number every quarter. And because of the deferred revenue, so it's always a sum of what happened during the past 4 quarters. The retention rate has been improving, and we are looking into tricks what we can do for new customer acquisition. But -- so it's hard to say if it's the same number, but maybe a similar ballpark. Do you want to add something?

No, I would just say that ARPU development has been great in direct business. Customer retention development has been great. But as said, if subscriber figures go down, it's very difficult to defend. So I would say that the trend, most likely to a certain extent, is similar than what we've seen now in the past couple of years.

Then it's also related to direct business or the security suite. Now that Windows 10 support was ended and there was basically quite a big boom, people buying new PCs just to get the new operating system compliant with Windows 11. Did that have any impact on your kind of new customer acquisition customers taking new contracts with your security suite? Or are the customers just relying on Microsoft security products?

Can I take this?

Yes.

We haven't seen an effect. not negative, not positive, up until now. Potentially, there will be something maybe in quarter 4 remains to be seen.

Maybe first, one question about the direct business. If you say that the ARPU and retention rates are really good numbers, so why you are not investing them more? Or how do you see the customer acquisition versus the whole situation? Because if you said the numbers look good, so I guess it might be worthwhile to invest in the customer acquisition.

Customer acquisition in direct business is a long-term game. You acquire customers and then you recognize the revenue over a longer period of time. And right now, we're in a hefty investment mode in our embedded security business as well as in the Tier 1 business. And to make sure that we remain the highly profitable company that we are, you need to make some choices, and that is a choice we make. We believe that right now, we get a better return on the investment by continuing on the embedded and Tier 1 front at this point in time. But it doesn't mean that 2 quarters down the line or 3 quarters down the line, we would not potentially change our strategy on that front.

Maybe I can a little bit build on that. So in direct business, basically, customer acquisition could cost as much as the billings of the first year, and the revenue comes even more slowly than the billings. So it is sort of somewhere during latter half of second year or third year that it starts to be positive. So that's -- it's a little bit slow payback, and we've seen that on partner side, the payback is faster.

Then about the partner in Germany, it still seems like the trend is going down, even though you mentioned something in Q2 that there might be some positive signs also with that partner. So how has the situation developed?

A bit of a setback. The good plans that they had to start reactivating their security business has now been put on hold due to circumstances that have nothing to do with us. And we have to live with that for now. So at least for now, that development is unfortunately continuing.

And then about those new Tier 1 deals or extensions that are starting next year, are those -- that kind of that when the product launches with the end customer, is it going to be for you like a meaningful revenue from day 1? Or is it going to like be a ramp-up with the product and gradual increase in revenue?

It is the latter. It is a gradual increase of revenue as people start picking up on that service or selecting the service and activating it.

And then about the new AI product, was it called Halo, scam protection where -- so is it going to be like part of Total or embedded capability?

It's a separate product. It's a new product. It would be part of the security suite side.

And maybe last question. You also mentioned some legacy partners in the Total business side, or that they have not converted into Total. So if we assume that you have been talking about that almost every quarter, that the total conversions are good, and then there is like new customers and also lots of positive things. But if we look at the trend, it's still the business has been quite flattish or growing not that nicely. So is it possible that when we go to the '26 and '27 that there is always like, yes, you get some new customers and new extension, but there is always some of those legacy and some problematic partners, and the business is still going to keep on going with a pretty steady state, instead of that you can accelerate the growth?

That is a possibility. And we see big differences from partner to partner. Some of them are extremely -- I mean, hugely successful with their security offering. And there are some who are not driving it with the vengeance, and they may be losing subscribers. They may have launched Total, but they may be losing subscribers as they have churn. Mobile churn or broadband churn. So that may decrease the number of security subscribers if they are not active in selling to new customers at the same time. So that's something that, in a way, unfortunately, hits the growth that some of the partners -- and if you look at pretty much any market in the world and you look at mobile markets or you look at fixed broadband markets, the churn numbers on an annual level oscillate anywhere between 5% to 25%. And if a partner has been very active selling security at some point in time, a higher portion of their customers have the service. And if they are suffering from churn, and don't promote as actively security right now, then we will see some loss. And that's what we see in some places.

But in general, there will always be growing customers and declining customers. And it's normal. So we don't want to go behind that. But there is this one German case, which is just so much bigger than the others. So that's why we are bringing it up. Earlier, we said there was another one in the UK. Well, that is still there, but the impact is like just a fraction of what the Germany case is.

Maybe lastly, still about the embedded business now. If you think about the outlook for the coming quarters or the next years, do you think you have been pretty confident that the business is going to grow. So how has that confidence level changed during -- from Q2?

We remain very confident. We started investing into embedded in earnest two years ago. And my view is that we did that precisely at the right time. And thanks to that, we have managed to sign completely new partnerships and taken our business to a new level with some other ones that we have had, especially through the Lookout acquisition. But I believe still firmly, along with the rest of the leadership, that it's a very good investment, and it's going to pay us back in terms of both revenue growth as well as profit. I think we can openly say that -- well, we've said that we are behind our plans, and that's why we had the profit warning in the summer. So it is about the Tier 1s, and we have talked that there are -- we cannot dictate the timing, how things go. So that's where we are behind despite this 10% growth. So where we are behind, it's those Tier 1 cases, which would be embedded cases, and that's where we have the expectations.

Matti Riikonen again, a couple of questions, starting with the embedded services. Since much of that business is in the U.S., what was the FX-adjusted growth in just embedded services in isolation?

Yes, that number we don't have exactly. But yes, most of that embedded is in the U.S., and you can find in the annual report, the one big customer, which is in the U.S. So from there, you can see the ballpark of that size because that's the biggest part there. And you see in those U.S. numbers in the total geography that I think it was like 6 percentage points lower. So I think from there, you can deduct. Hopefully, we can report that number in the future, but not yet this quarter.

Then there was this over 10% growth in embedded services. I was just wondering, was there any kind of one-time payments, one-time revenue related to you reaching some milestones and not necessarily volume-driven revenue? So any kind of extra in the 10% growth?

There is something. But relatively small. I think one case had a fee that was recognized in one go in September. And last year, we had something that's been then deferred over a longer period. But nothing that would explain the whole number. It's not about that. It's also like normal business-driven.

So a big chunk of the 10% growth is actually coming from growing volumes.

Yes.

Absolute majority.

Finally, when you talk about the scam protection module, how unique is that? You mentioned that it has won an award, but how many players are offering scam protection at the moment? And what's the kind of competitive situation in that segment? Is it just for you? Or how many players are there also?

Good question. There are two separate markets and competitor sets. One is when we're selling the Total app. Practically, every provider of a consumer security app now has some kind of an additional scam-related product that you have to download, or they have integrated some scam capabilities into their application. So we are not alone. But we have been, I would say, very successful in getting the adoption high at a relatively high level amongst the partners who are working with Total. There are also some partners who have taken only the scam protection module of Total, and that's how they start with us. So they are completely new. So I would say that confirms that we are competitive when you look at only our scam protection in Total. And then the second part is the embedded security side and all of those capabilities that have to do with scan protection. I would say that we are a clear market leader on that front. And not only the capabilities we offer, but the breadth of capabilities we offer in terms of portfolio as a whole is second to none.

Okay. So let's then take the questions from the online audience. [Operator Instructions] The first is that what is the latest update on the delayed Tier 1 ramp-ups related to ones launched earlier this year? When do you expect those to start showing more pronounced growth?

Okay. So naturally, I can't make statements on behalf of our partners. But based on the knowledge that we have today on one of these, the growth is clear, and we've started seeing good growth of the service. The volumes are massive that we're talking about. So, the financial effects require high growth to be financially meaningful. But we are starting to see really nice growth numbers, which we didn't see necessarily in the first half of the year. So that's one. And another one, we have indications from the partner that they would be starting to properly activate their sales and marketing efforts around that service, starting from quarter 4. So that remains to be seen. Will that materialize and what kind of results that will produce. But at least on, in a way, commitment level, it starts to be there now, as we expected already from the beginning of the year.

Thank you. Then some questions regarding the geographical development. So, what are the main factors slowing sales growth in Europe and North America? And on the other hand, what's driving the good sales development in the Nordics?

Okay. If I start from Europe, I would say that there's quite a bit of price-related competition in the CSP sector in Europe as a whole, even more so maybe in Central and Southern Europe. And many of our partners are therefore seeing quite a bit of churn. And they may be win customers, but they lose customers. And that takes a whole lot of their bandwidth. For instance, there are quite a number of mobile virtual network operators these days that have entered the market, which increases price competition. So, the market is tough for some of our customers. And that takes focus away, potentially from services.

And of course, there is this Germany, and yes, there are many, let's say, legacy customers who have not converted to Total, who are not focusing on this.

But nothing massive, just small changes and shifts depending on the market and depending on the partner. Why are things looking better in Asia and Japan? I would say that the adoption of consumer cybersecurity in many markets of Asia Pacific have been relatively low. So, I'm not saying that the market is pristine and like a virgin territory, but much more so than in Europe. So, the awareness, thanks to scams, is increasing by the day, which increases our demand. In Japan, it's been very limited. I would say that consumer security has been highly limited to endpoint security, AV style products. And now that is expanding. Also, the big players in Japan clearly want differentiated services and don't just want to resell an endpoint protection service. That's not sufficient anymore. They want to develop more brand-aligned differentiated services. So that is driving. So, the big players want to expand their security offering with something differentiated, therefore, demand for embedded, for instance. In the U.S., I don't see that there is any reason to think that there would be any kind of systematic negative thing ongoing in the U.S., absolutely not. It's just coincidental shifts here and there. In the Nordics, Sari already mentioned, our partners have been successful at taking Total to market. They've been able to increase the average revenue per user. And typically, they are relatively active in promoting in security services as part of their core offering, not only as a value-added service, but as part of core offering. They've done well.

I think Nordics is a market where it's this win-win situation with partners is working well. We win together.

Thank you. There's just additional question to that, that Elisa and DNA have rolled security services this year to their mobile customers, and the process will continue in '26. Has that been somehow visible in your numbers year-to-date?

I don't want to comment partner by partner. It's not within our choice to make comments about their numbers. So maybe those should be questions from Jussi Tolvanen and Topi Manner.

Is your embedded services business cannibalizing your security suite business?

No. Different needs, different partners. And if you think of Total, it's a faster go-to-market, readily available app, which can be branded and doesn't require a whole lot of own development from a partner, actually very little, whereas embedded is going after a differentiated, unique brand-aligned security service, which has been custom-built for that partner. That requires from them also a bigger user base to, in a way, have a solid business case for something like that, and quite a lot of resources to build it. Also, embedded security services only cover Android and iOS users, not desktops. And therefore, many of our fixed broadband partners, for them, the primary use case, not the only one, but the primary use case has been laptop users. So also from that perspective, they are also complementary. And we are seeing partners who have either Total or embedded and see that to complement the iOS and Android user base with a desktop opportunity, maybe Total is the way to go. And then the other way around, that Total may be serving the wide range of services to people, but maybe adding some elements of embedded security into the operator app, for instance, could make sense. So, both, not one or the other.

Then you mentioned that ARPU is growing in partner business, but how has the number of users developed this year?

Relatively stable.

Thank you. Then back to Germany. How large the impact of the German customer had? For example, did the decline accelerate? Or has the decline been on a stable trend over the past year?

We have not commented exactly the customer-specific numbers, but it is a significant number. And during Q3, it was bigger than in Q2, but it's not been a straight line, and there are some variations. But it is significant.

And one last question regarding the debt situation. So, do you plan to pay down more debt to reach your leverage target or only by improving profitability?

Yes. Well, we are paying off the debt based on the amortization schedule, which is EUR 30 million a year. And of course, then because it's a net debt that is calculated in leverage. So, the cash flow in general has an impact on that. Of course, we are working to reach growth and improve the EBITDA. So, the debt situation should be stably going down, and then EBITDA improving. That's the target.

Thank you. That was all at the moment from the online audience. So, if any additional from here.

One more. I think you mentioned in Q2 that you set up like a SWAT team for that you could like push the partners and ramp up the product. So, can you remind us how that SWAT team is doing at the moment?

Yes. So, I mentioned that one of the deals that we went or the services that went live earlier this year with our bigger partners or strategic partners that one of them has actually seen very nice subscriber growth. Our Tiger team or SWAT team has been part of that exercise. I'm not saying that we did it. We did it together with our partner. So, it's worked well. And, in the other case where I mentioned that they now want to start activating on their promotion front of the service we launched earlier in the year. Also there, our SWAT team is active. So, I would say that it's doing precisely what it was supposed to do. And some of the results are already seen, but now with every passing quarter, most likely more. So, in quarter 4, very keen to see how the results will develop in both of these cases, for instance. Okay. If that's all for now, thanks for joining here in the room. Thank you for joining on the stream. And we'll see you latest once we go out with our 2025 full-year results and quarter 4 results in February, right?

Early February, yes. We'll publish the dates probably fairly shortly.

Okay. Thank you, everybody, for joining. Have a great day.

Thank you. Bye-bye.