Itaúsa S.A. (ITSA4) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

I am Priscila Grecco, I'm the CFO of Itausa. Welcome. And it's a pleasure to be here with you in another addition of results and focus. And now Alfredo Setubal, the CEO of Investor Relations of Itausa, by my side, I will share with you the financial results of the holding in the first semester of 2023. We're also going to talk about the highlights. Welcome, Alfredo. Welcome. It's a pleasure to share this space with you once again.

Well, it's great news for our shareholders, our investors. So let's take it away.

Before we start, I would like to take this moment to let you know that we have the simultaneous translation into English for those that would prefer to all of this in English. We just have to click in the United States flag that's on your platform. Also, we have the -- we count on your participation. It's important that we hear your comments, your -- well, your opinions even, submit your questions, please and use the box of messages. Also, over Twitter, [Foreign Language] and you can -- we will get your comments at the end of the event, we're going to submit a questionnaire. And it's important that we hear your opinion so we can bring a better content, an improved content. Once again, shifting part, click on the button right and below or capture the QR code here in the screen. And I will talk about the agenda for today. The first block, let's talk about the business environment. And then we're going to discuss all the results of Itausa in the first semester. The main highlights of the investments in the portfolio. We're going to talk about capital allocation and the management of liquidity. We're also going to talk about the preferred subject accrued liabilities and assets. We're going to share this with you. Alfredo will give us final ideas and thoughts, and then we're going to do the Q&A. Let's start. The first block for the business environment. Before we get into the results of those semester, it's important that we talk about the business environment in and on itself. We've had a very challenging year. It was very difficult. Now we're having the signs of improvement. How do you foresee -- what is your opinion?

Well, we have a business environment that is very challenging. We've seen the economy with a low growth over the last few years. Of course, the pandemic has influenced that. But this year, the GDP expectation 2%, that is -- well, we have agriculture backing that up, but we also see the industry and commerce. Still -- with the level of activity still very low, unfortunately. So the expectation is that with a drop in the interest rate that we are going to see all throughout the next month that the business environment and the consumers will get more trust. And then there will be more movement in the economy. Well, GDP, 2%, inflation 4%, 5%. But it's still an environment that is very challenging. There was a loss of income that is very important over the last few years because of inflation and so on and so forth. The external scenario is also difficult. We can see the American economy slowing down. We see the Chinese economy slowing down even with deflation. This shows that the international scenario, specifically on the side of China will affect Brazil that exports [indiscernible] to Brazil, commodity so on. These are scenarios that demand a lot of care. But it's a better scenario than the one that a lot of economists predicted at the end of last year.

Certainly, let's see how the context of business that Alfredo just mentioned is reflected in the numbers that we reported yesterday on the 14th of August. Reported net revenue in the first semester of BRL 6.4 billion, an ROE that is very consistent with what we are reporting to the market. 17.2%, the return over the assets. So the recurring net revenue also very stable, BRL 6.1 billion. And the liquid patrimony is growing, the net patrimony is BRL 76.9 billion and market value of the companies that are part of our portfolio also with the valuation of an increase of 20% over the last -- the previous year, BRL 115 billion. Well, we see the drop in results in regards in the first semester of '22, the 6% drop has to do with the selling of XP shares that we did with more magnitude and therefore, we have a larger effect that was in 2022 and not so much in '23. That variation explains this drop. If we just purge that result of XP for both periods, the results are, once again, very stable and it shows the resilience and the solidity of the portfolio. Even in the context, very challenging context, as Alfredo has mentioned. And let's talk about the capital market performance of Itausa. What we are? We can see the shares. We're a highlight. We can see that several periods on the short term, 6 months, also the long term for those investors that are with us over a period that is even longer. We can see Itausa really highlighting -- well, being with good numbers in regards to the Ibovespa Index. Now let's talk about discount. We can see our threshold for discounts getting to 17.6%. We -- with the last talk that we had, it was about 22%, 23%. How do you see -- how do you analyze this threshold of discount?

Well, the threshold reduced, as you said, we got a discount of over 30% over the proceeds, and this is decreasing. We believe that the discount is still a bit high. The performance of the invested companies, the portfolio performance and the results that we've been presenting thus far, the capital allocation, the risk factors would justify of value for discount that is less, in my opinion. Well, it's still high, but it's something that Itausa with the shares just for -- from Itau Unibanco is higher than the market cap of Itausa. So we can see that the market pays 0, as you say, to all the portfolio, which is not Itau Unibanco and certainly, it's a mistake. Also when we calculate that discount. We consider the Aegea and Copa Energia just by the leasing value and we know that internally, these companies are performing very well, and the real value is much higher. So yes, the discount is much higher than what the numbers show, just considering the listed companies. So we've had good performance with the correct capital allocation but is still high discount, in my opinion.

Well, Alfredo, since we talk a lot about the business environment, and we've seen the main highlights for the results. I wanted to call the next block, and we're going to detail our results. Let me start by talking about how the Itausa result is composed. We reported a recurrent net revenue sales point BRL 1 billion drop in regards to the previous year. That drop is explained by, as I commented, by the variation that we had in the reduction and the lower impact in a result of the capital gain of the selling of the shares of XP's [indiscernible] 2022. In the first semester, we had BRL 1.1 billion that we recognized in this first semester. So BRL 409 million, so it's a smaller lot of shares of the sales of the XP. That explains the change in the results. Our result is impacted by the administrative costs, the expenses of the holding itself and also by our fiscal inefficiencies. So PIS/COFINS over everything that we received from our invested companies, especially Itau Unibanco within that our result of the holding that it was a worsening in regards to the previous year, we have a reflex of the hike in the tax expenses. Now the financial results, we can see the impact from the cash profitability but also the finance expense in regards to the debentures that we issued, remember that all the acquisitions that we did, we did it in a leveraged way and we have here the reflection of the financial expenses. And the main result which comes from our invested companies, we recognize here BRL 6.4 billion in results that we're bringing from the participation that we have in our investor company and that represented a growth of 5%. Let me detail each of these pillars, our result of the holding of the itself. So there is -- we closed with BRL 303 million of expenses in the period, mainly due to the higher tax expenses. PIS/COFINS with -- is the taxes that are incident over the results of our investment companies. Now the financial results. We have an increase of net expenses, closing the semester with BRL 342 million of expenses mainly impacted by expenses with the interest with debentures. And remember that in the middle of last year, we did the fifth emission of debentures to finance, the acquisition of CCR and reinforce our cash. So here, we have the first semester of expenses in regards to that debentures. And also, we're going to have to reflex of that from our profitability and cash and the expenses in interest rates because we did the prepayment of part of our debt in December of last year already starting the process of deleveraging the holding. So that's reflected in the financial results in the first semester. Now, here is the results of the components of our investor company. So you can see how it's reflected in our results. Our investor contributed with BRL 6.4 billion in our net revenue, 5% in regards to the previous year with a growth that is very much leveraged, especially in Itau Unibanco, and we had a great performance in the first semester of our investor Copa Energia that acts in the energy sector, CCR, which is recently getting into our portfolio with the positive results in the semester. We have Aegea with a great performance. Dexco, it's more challenging XP drop in regards to the previous years, mainly because of the sales that we did over the last year reducing our participation and [indiscernible] with a negative variation because last year, we had a very positive effect that did not repeat in this year of the update of the fair value of that asset -- financial asset. Alfredo. What is your opinion on the performance of our invested companies? What are the highlights that you would show an existent with the results?

The delinquency of our credit portfolio, and it shows that our transformation of the bank, changing profile of the service that we provide for our clients, changing this, improving this. This is very relevant for this performance that Itau Unibanco was presenting. And we are growing on the side of the revenue, we also reduced the expenses. The efficiency index of the bank is one of the best in Brazil. We closed below 40%, 37% here in Brazil, which is an index at the lower, the better cost and expenses and revenues, and we are improving quarter-on-quarter.

Okay. What about Alpargatas?

Well, Alpargatas is very challenging. A drop in revenue, very good in the Brazilian society. Besides that, we had operational problems in manufacturing, logistics, there is an increase in the stocks. We are working for that. So -- we changed the CEO. We brought a new CFO. And the strategic focus is to fix the house that was, like you say, there was a bit of a mess because of the logistics and operational issues that I commented. But on the long term, we are very confident in regards to Alpargatas. And we are working with the internationalization, but we're taking one step behind, so we can take two steps ahead. Okay. And it's a brand that is very good. It's branded in Brazil and Europe, it's very well known.

Well, let's talk about Dexco. Also the sector that is very challenging, very challenging because the high interest rates.

Obviously, it's a poison for the sector of real estate. And well, launching new apartments here. Well, we saw a lot of drops in the selling of all the ceramic. I mean, this is a very challenging scenario. But we have a high number of the market. And I think that the operation is doing well. It's not so much internal. The wood part, which is the core business of Dexco is very good in regards to other sectors. So the industry part with a lot of difficulties because of the high interest rates, but we had two important compensations. First is the result of our Celulose that was very good and contributed to BRL 60 million in the results in this quarter. And also, we reduced the investments of the company taking into consideration this macroeconomic scenario BRL 2.5 billion, we reduced it from BRL 2.5 billion to BRL 1.8 billion. So these disinvestments they finished this year. So from now on, all the EBITDA that will be generated will be available for the operations. Yes, a series of actions that are restructuring actions that will put the company on the right track.

Yes, we closed a few shop floors. So we are optimizing the assets in such a way that we can improve the cycle of the drop in the market. And then well, now changing gears, Copa Energia.

It's doing very well. The company has done a synergy work and the integration of the companies of well Liquigas and Copagaz. And this is a good commercial strategy. Good results deleveraged very well, very quickly when we got into the company to buy the operation. Well, Liquigas from Petrobras. The company is doing very well. The cash generation that is very high, much higher than what we expected, and this can be seen in other companies of the sector. So it's an investment that will be there. It's good that we did it, and it has a good value.

And we captured a lot of the synergies.

Yes, much more than we predicted. The management of Copa was very good. synergies were spectacular.

Now to finish this block, Let's talk about the infrastructure invested companies.

Infrastructure sector is doing well. It's recovering to the pre-pandemic volumes. CCR at the street, the ports, they are also -- well, mobility is still low from what we had in the pre-pandemic period. The company is doing well. It's contributing to the results as a whole. It's consolidating a lot. Well, in Rio Grande do Sul, in the Southern region, also in the Northern, well, the company is expanding. There is a lot of CapEx, both Aegea and CCR, big investments to fulfill the concession contracts that were acquired, but it's an expansion. It's the biggest company private company of the sector of utilities with the potential for growth that is very high. And NTS, which is the gas distributor in the Southeast. Well, it's a very good operation with a good cash generation.

Well, good, Alfredo. Now that we went through the results of Itausa, and we talked about each of the investor companies. Let's talk about the next block. Before we talk about this theme, let's remind you please submit your questions. We're waiting for them [Operator Instructions] At the end, we're going to have some time to interact with you. So capital allocation you should follow that we are disinvesting in XP since 2021, when we received 15.1% of participation in the company after the partnership reorg is initiated by the bank itself, and now we have a participation of 3.3%. Those sales that we executed over the year generated a cash impact of BRL 7.7 billion and our result, BRL 4 billion in capital gains. We got to a result of sale of the average ticket of BRL 116 per share. And the impact of that. Well, if you look at what we've done over the year, which generated BRL 1.7 billion of cash considering June and July, we've used mainly to reinforce our cash and broadening our liquidity level. We're going to comment about that. And also another news is the -- while the closing of the shareholders' agreement and the leave of our members, we don't have a significant influence, and we changed the accounting treatment of this investment. We are treating it as a finance asset on the value -- based on the value market and we shouldn't expect a big change in the accounting for the next semester since we decrease our participation in the company. So now the indebtedness, we have a very healthy scenario if we consider the current cash of the company of BRL 3.8 billion and add the cash that we are adding with the sales of interest rates and the potential cash that can come from the sale of the new shares of XP in July, we got to BRL 6.6 billion of liquidity, gross liquidity. So we can more -- we can do the amortization that is very healthy throughout the next years, mainly in this concentration that we have here of the fifth issuance that we did in the shorter term. We are going to abate that with the sales of XP and we have a very comfortable scenario. We also have indicators of leverage that are very good. As you can see, the numbers in the balance sheet and the average cost is very good. CDI rate plus 1.61% year-on-year. And due to all that liquidity management, we have news. It's the beginning of the coverage by the global S&P ratings. The other way, the credit risk that attributed to Itausa AAA, very positive. Recognizing the increase in liquidity in the company due to all the sales that we did and also the anticipated payment of debt at the end of last year. So besides S&P, we also had the Fitch Ratings with the AAA, and we continue with the evaluation by Moody's as well. Very good news, Alfredo.

Certainly, the strategy being recognized by the ratings agencies, very good.

Now I'd like to go to the next block: proceeds benefits. Certainly, this block is the most expected by our audience, so we have good news to share with you. So let me start with one of the dividends from 2022. Now we received in the FY '22 with [indiscernible], our main investor company, BRL 3.1 billion. We did the statement last year, that totaled almost BRL 4 billion, BRL 3.993 billion. So we have here the proceeds with the additional of what we did from the bank in BRL 877 million. Remember that our practice over the last few years is to distribute the benefits that we receive from Itau Unibanco. So yesterday, on the Board of Directors on August 14, we did a capital call of that -- extra call that we -- that extra value of dividends of BRL 877 million. And we defined in this board meeting that we are also going to pay the dividends that are pending from last year of BRL 1.162 billion. So the date of payment is going to be October 2. And in the same day to facilitate our investors, they can opt for exercise the right of preference and do the compensation of those dividends with the capital call that we are announcing today. So with that capital call of BRL 877 million will happen with -- this is -- we're very good accrued liabilities, while very good in regards to the over 120 days if we consider yesterday's quote is going to be even higher. It's going to be 32%. So we are having a price of issuance of the new shares of BRL 6.50. You're going to be positioned. And if you have shares in Itausa on August 17 and they're going to have the preference, the period of -- to exercise of preference right over these capital calls that are going to start on August 24, and they're going to go until September 29 -- September 22. So in this period, on the 25th of August, we also have the payment of these dividends that we already announced. Therefore, another resource that we can also use by our shareholder that would like to do the payment in the capital call. Well, in one lump sum. They can also use that for this payment. So the deadline for the payment for the dividends that I just mentioned and the integralization of capital itself will happen both on October 2. So our shareholders, if they want to take that option, they can use the dividends to compensate the integralization of the capital. So this is a very important movement, and I would like to get your feedback on the capital call.

Well, the motivation -- the main motivation industry reinforce the cash so we can face all the expenses and commitments of the company over the next few years, possibly reducing the debt of the deadline for the payments. So we're going to evaluate the whole scenario. But the important thing is to keep the practice of redistributing all the dividends or the proceeds benefits received from Itau Unibanco to our shareholders, and this is a considerable number already of dividends.

I want to let our shareholders know that we have a lot of context on that capital call that is available in our website and also let you know that should you have any doubt about the preference right, you can talk to your bank, and they will help you. Now talking about the dividends. We have a very strong participation. So we had here BRL 2 billion in regards to the first semester of 2023 that is going to be paid on August 25. That representing 20% of increase in regards to the dividends that we have in the first semester of the previous year. So there is an important increase on the dividends here. Now we did hear -- this is the payment that will be defined briefly totaling over the year, BRL 2.4 billion of dividends that we already did in the FY. That takes us to a payout of 32% in regards to the results of the first semester and a dividend yield of 5.5%. I would like to call our last block for the final thoughts. Before Alfredo give us his final remarks [Operator Instructions] Now, Alfredo, before we go to the Q&A, you have the floor for remarks.

Thank you, Priscila. We did a presentation. That was brief of our results and how our invested companies are performing, leaving the space open for a big block of Q&A. I think that there is a lot of interest in getting to know the several aspects of what was presented. But the most important thing is that we continue with the operation that is very solid. Very good rigid capital allocation to face this scenario of low growth and the international scenario that is challenging. I believe that our companies are well positioned to face this scenario that we have up ahead in Itausa S.A. holding is very well -- has a good capital to facing its commitments.

Now we closed the first part of [indiscernible] focused on results. This is another channel for you to have a dialogue with us, our shareholders, our analysts, and we are always publishing a lot of the news and strategic relevant information about the holding and our portfolio and our communication channels. So follow Itausa in the social networks, enroll in our YouTube channel, and you can also receive our monthly newsletter and all the news of Itausa will be there. Now let's talk about the most interesting part of our event, which is the interaction with you that are watching us. We have the Q&A session now.

[Operator Instructions] Now the first analyst will ask the questions with us. Thiago Batista from UBS.

Thank you, Alfredo, Priscila. Now I have a question about the discount. Over the last years, we -- well, you had a good result -- good work with the market. And as it was said, this should help with the drop in the discount. So in your opinion, the tax reform or the creation of IVA tax? Would it be the VAT tax? Would it be or will it be sufficient in comparison to the PIS/COFINS or do we need to see the efficiencies once it's implemented? And still on that topic, the discount is a point that bothers Itausa or not. The operations of Itausa or not.

I want to talk about that point of the tax reform, Thiago. And then Alfredo can continue. Well, about the reform of the IVA or VAT tax, it does not affect us as we're not talking about income, it doesn't affect the JCP that is incident over the capital -- interest rates over capital which is -- it doesn't have a reflex. But the end of JCP, the extinction of JCP, then yes. We're talking about an impact that is important for the reduction of our inefficiency of PIS and COFINS taxes, which shows here today it's our main expense as a holding after the financial expenses, but it's our main expense, which is the tax inefficiency and the cost of PIS/COFINS, which is BRL 500 million if we add IUPAR, BRL 600 million. So it's a very representative expense. So if we have the end of JCP, then certainly, we will see the extinction of that inefficiency and therefore, the discount because of that exclusive reason we're not talking about the impact that it would have for our investor companies that really use the JCP declaration, but by the end of JCP and the exclusion of the fiscal inefficiency that we should see an impact of lower expenses and the closing of our discount because of that. Alfredo, would you like to comment? Give us your remarks.

Well, it's what you said, complementing what you just said. For the companies in general, not just for the companies of the group, Itausa, JCP is very important in its capital strategy. So the end of JCP is not something desired by the companies because it shows to be an instrument that is very important for capitalization of the companies, after all throughout these 20 or so years in which it was created to compensate the end of the correction of the balance sheet in the real. So the benefit for the company is very important. And I think that, that should be kept for -- by the government and by the Congress. If the JCP ends, of course, the companies are going to suffer, but Itausa is a holding it stops to have those BRL 600 million of expenses, both in the standpoint of the holding itself [indiscernible] is good, but in a conglomerate is not good. Discount, Thiago, is always a discomfort, but we understand that there are some inefficiencies. There are direct costs of the company. And there is a series of factors that determine how in the market that discount works. And today, we are at a better level. But still, I think that there can be a lower discount due to the portfolio that we have of companies, very solid, very leaders in their lines of credit and with the capital allocation that is very prudent of Itausa, of its cash and its investment plan. So I believe that there is still a space for the reduction of discount, but holding will always have some discount because of the inefficiencies in and itself of being a holding.

Well, the next analyst is Tiago Binsfeld from Goldman Sachs.

Leverage of the company. You talked about reinforcing the cash and we start to see it in 2025. So do you -- are you going to do a prepayment of the debt and also in a broader sense with the lower interest rates. If it's materialized, do you think that the trajectory of the company will be of deleverage? And what is the moment that you think about leveraging more? It's something to allow you to think in the strategy on the long term.

Thank you, Tiago. It's evident that with this cash that we have plus the capital -- additional capital call that is announced yesterday and today for our shareholders. Of course, we think about the alternatives for capital allocation, a prepayment of the debts. And as we've done before in the previous years. So 2023, '24, we are not -- we did not have any amortization in the payment, and we anticipated the payment of those debts last year. Now it's possible that among the capital allocation strategies, we can anticipate the payment of debt. Today is a financial expense that is very high for a holding. It's still 3%. Even though it drops for a more reasonable threshold, 10%, 9% on the middle term is still a high interest rate in regards to the JCP dividends that we received from our investment companies. From our standpoint, now the best capital allocation that we have is the reduction of debt, which is an expensive debt. The very -- the Selic is still very high, CDI is very high. So we understand that now or the capital allocation to keep the solidity of the company in a scenario with a low growth of the economy challenging in the international scenario. As I commented, I believe that prudence will take us to a reduction of debt at this moment. So it's probable that we will anticipate the payments that will be overdue over the next few years with a strategy of prudence and investment. It doesn't mean that we cannot eventually do new investments. It's not that as long as the market provides the conditions for new issuance and so on and so forth, maybe. So we are still evaluating some alternatives and in this more challenging scenario of the high interest rate and the risks, not only in Brazil but in abroad, are growing. It's more difficult to find opportunities that would make -- that would justify new investments, and that will bring adequate returns for our shareholders. So at the first moment, we have to reduce the debt. But we shouldn't discard the investment. So that's why we have good alternatives maybe in the future.

Okay, third analyst Gustavo Schroden from Bradesco.

My question is the follow-up of Tiago. You mentioned very well the issue of the practice of distributing 100% of what you receive from Itau but you have that capital call alongside and you talked many times Alfredo during the call about the enforcement of the cash. My question is, I understood that maybe this would be the moment for the company to take care of itself more in-house, the cash and the debts and thinking about investments, new investments and a second moment. But now at the end of your response, you commented that the company has still some sort of appetite for the investment throughout the next years in the short term. I would like to understand, is the company considering new sectors, new investments or it would be increases -- potential increases of participation in the businesses of the company itself? And also -- we have an expectation of XP. Now it's only 3.3%. That is -- but it's still there or the expectation will be for this year or next year. Any type of color on that would be interesting.

With regards XP, we left the shareholders' agreement, the bylaws, but we still have some obligations facing the American SEC in regards to the participation in XP. We are still subject to the previous rules to the end of that agreement of the shareholders for some additional months. So we are going to, if possible, disinvest throughout this year. If it's possible, we can close this year, but without brushing. It depends on the prices, the market conditions, liquidity. But as it was said, XP was an investment that was transient that we received from Itau Unibanco as an investment that was nonpriority [indiscernible]. We're going to continue to sell if the market has conditions to absorb this final balance sheet, as I just said, at the end of the year, we're going to execute it. If not, we can do it next year. There is no rush given the liquidity that we have that will be reinforced by the capital gains once we do that. Let's do it step by step and wait for the right moment to maximize that disinvestment. In regards to new investments, what I wanted to say is that we are very at ease with the portfolio. But we have an area of M&A. We are always studying alternatives that might come up for our portfolio. We're looking at a few sectors, new sectors, but with a lot of care because personally, I think it's very difficult at this moment to find investments that will bring a return that would justify the risks. But Brazil is a country that, regardless of having a macro that is very challenging in the cherry picking and the individual choices of investments. There is always a lot of opportunities as we found good opportunities throughout these years. Even though we had the challenging scenario of the war, the pandemic, the commodities, inflation being higher, we are always paying attention, that's the point, to new opportunities. But the priority is still deleveraging in regards to the challenging macro scenario here and abroad.

Now Alfredo let me ask a question from the audience. We got a lot of questions and comments, positive comments on -- well, the [ Nielsen ], for example, I don't have questions. I just want to congrats Itausa for doing the great work. [ Marcelo Martin ] said, okay, let's go ahead. And congratulations on the event. Matthias, great results. But we have a lot of questions about the new investments, and this is the core business of the company. And we have to explore that. So we have a lot of questions, Antonio Carlos and Eliza, Eric, Louis, Alexandre for several. [indiscernible] questions. Do you think that the electric sector or agriculture or companies abroad, what is the strategy? The strategy will be to get into different sectors with small participations? Or do you want to continue to go back to the policy of being a good payer of dividends.

As I commented before, we always study alternatives in the electric sector, well, energy is not a good returns for our shareholders in the energy sector. Well, there might be great opportunities. It's a sector that there is a lot of offers in terms of alternatives, the price of energy dropped a lot. So this is not a sector that we have observed. The agricultural sector is -- well, we like it. It's very representative of the GDP. But over the last years that we are analyzing the new investments, we have not found any alternative that is important, good for our shareholders to take part -- direct part in the growth of the sector. We have an open eye, but it's difficult to find. So let's continue to find alternatives. Brazil and the macro not always does well, but in the micro, we always found some opportunities as we've done over the last few years. Therefore, I believe that at the moment, the cost of that second objective. The -- [ meet ] the companies even to -- those are more connected to the industry that they refine themselves in terms of results. This is where we can have a higher influence in strategy and their operations. Thirdly -- third objective, if something comes up, is to do some investment. If we do not do any investment, and we continue to receive resources and dividends from these companies, then we're going to do a policy of payments of these dividends. That would be natural. But if we have the opportunities, we're going to do new investments. Capital allocation is very -- we do a lot of analysis. We're only going to do investments. And you can see that the investments that we've done all throughout these years, now there is an added value in regards to what we pay in terms of investment. Much higher than our investment -- initial investment. So the returns have been very strong, have been very good even with the nonlisted companies, the energy companies. Our investment is much more valued than what is in our books. So we are very good with the portfolio. We have great strong leader companies. We're going to continue to look for them. And otherwise, we're going to pay dividends as we have always done with the capital accesses.

Another guest, an analyst, Sylvia Doria from [ Sefra ] will be live.

Well, most of my questions were answered, but I have a question in regards to the portfolio -- your portfolio. How do you see a potential opening of capital of Aegea? What is the deadline for that investment? Changes in the macro relation, would it change in our perspective for that divestment?

Aegea is the biggest utilities company in Brazil. It's a big company, services 30 million people. It's very relevant -- its participation in the sector of sanitation. The landmark for the changes that are being proposed does not -- do not affect our strategy to -- of growth of the company. It's always good to remember that these concessions for utilities and given the landmark laws of Brazil, demands a high investment over a lot of years to fulfill the contracts and reach the goals of service of water and sewage for our -- the Brazilian population, [indiscernible] water and sewage. So Aegea is -- at the moment that is good of expansion and high investments in terms of CapEx -- operational CapEx to face the contracts. The company will continue to grow. We'll continue to try and gain new concessions over the next few years. And I think that the capital opening of this company will happen, but still demands some time. I see personal demand. We depend on the controllers of Aegea. We are a minority investors. So it really depends on the decision of the adequate moment to open the capital. But this is a company that potentially has everything to -- well, we can open the capital over the next few years, but it needs to fix its capital structure better. And it needs to be a company listed more governance. So there are some points for evolution of the company so that in fact, it can be a listed company and come to the Capital Market in its fullness of governance of transparency of business and market perspective. The moment is not here, but it will come in the future.

Well, the next analyst [ Fernanda Feres ], Credit Suisse. Welcome.

I wanted to ask a question that is more strategic. I wanted to understand how do you see the optimal attribution of the portfolio in terms of concentration per sector? And are you satisfied with the current distribution? And thinking about new investments, I also wanted to understand what are the main criteria that you consider? And is there any sector-specific sector that brings your attention to administration?

Well, thank you for your participation. Well, look, I think that the portfolio of Itausa will always be concentrated in the financial sector. This is something that we cannot change because we do not have any intention of reducing the participation of Itausa at Itau Unibanco. So Itau Unibanco is a spectacular asset, largest bank in Brazil, great results has adapted to the digital framework, the new competition in a very adequate way, a lot of work to do. So we believe that we have the right agenda and with the correct movement. So there is no way that we can deconcentrate from the financial sector that is the investment of Itausa. So what we have created is a portfolio of assets that we are very happy with, in terms of diversification and investments that we've done. Itau is the concentrated bank, most concentrated bank in the terms of infrastructure. And this is a sector that will give a lot of opportunities in Brazil as the difficulties of all the governments, federal government and municipal state will give you of investments -- of making investment in the street in energy and utilities and paving roads. That will give a lot of opportunities for the private sector at the moment. Also, in the context of these difficulties of the industry sector here in Brazil, volatility of the economy drop in the income, low growth. So we continue to see the concession sector still as a sector that has a lot of opportunities. Other sectors, I think that we mentioned agriculture, is an interesting sector. It's difficult to find opportunities. Healthcare, still a sector that can possibly have some opportunities over the next few years. These are sectors that are more under our radar, but always reinforcing prudence. When we do that because there's a lot of risk and the local scenario and the international scenario are very challenging over the next few years. We're only going to do new investments. If we understand that they will bring a return on investment for our shareholders. And the question, I think there was Gustavo, and we didn't comment, it's always possible to reinforce participations in companies that we already have in our portfolio. This is an alternative that we analyzed through our valuation models and turn the valuation models and we have the companies that we have -- that we have a participation. We have to see if they're going to give good results for our shareholders. So the hypothesis of increasing our participation in some companies is always open, as a way of capital allocation.

Well, I would like to thank all the analysts that took part in our live and certainly enriched the debate. I'm going to take the questions of the audience. There's a lot of questions here. One of them is about our capital call, Barcelo and Joao. They want to know how to adhere and what are the advantages for the shareholders?

We did the capital call of BRL 877 million. Priscila showed in the presentation, something that exceeded -- what we declare and it exceeds with the price. Certainly, it's a discount of 30-some percent. And we calculated that price with other capital calls throughout the next year. It's been, I think that 4 years that we haven't done the capital increase. But our methodology, we always gave a discount in regards to the last 120 days of negotiations of the share itself, led by the volumes. So this is a very attractive price. Over BRL 6, all the shareholders of Itausa, this is a private institution, it's not public. So in the sense -- in the sense that there is a registry and CDN to Brazilian [indiscernible], it's an operation that is done by the shareholders themselves of Itausa. So those have an interest. And since our great part of the -- of our shareholders are natural persons and are distributed through the brokerage firms, you have to talk to your brokers firm and see the best way. We're giving two alternatives for that in terms of payment. The shareholder can pay with their own resources. If they have the availability of those or think about the compensation of the capital increase with the dividends of the JCP that will be paid on October 2. So if the shareholder opts for the use of JCP, then there isn't any disbursement. They do not receive JCP, but they also -- they don't have any disbursement and that purchase of the new shares at BRL 650 per share. The advantage is to keep the shareholder and the participation of the capital and having the opportunity to buy a share with a great perspective and has a record performance that is very good and at a very attractive price.

Well, if you still have any questions, you can seek Itausa and our website and our social networks and our Investor Relations. And also, your brokerage firm, you're going to get more details and more information and how to exercise the preference, right? Well, Alfredo, some questions about the shares, the modification and also the purchase program, [indiscernible], they ask if there is an expectation for that and is the intention to open a new repurchase of the shares. So here, we have a lot of the -- for the long-term incentive, for the small lot, can you comment on the subsidy?

Well, the repurchase of shares that Priscila just mentioned, which is to service our program, there is nothing else. We think that this is the best capital allocation at the moment for Itausa and its shareholders, pay the debt, let's see the end of the investment. With the capital allocation. Now in terms of owners to our subsidies or premiums, there's nothing here being discussed thus far, we've done that policy of incorporating the reserves that are accumulated in the capital of the company. And we've done that several times over the last few years. It's possible that, that policy will be kept over throughout this year, but this is not something that is -- will be taken to the discussion. Well, it will be may be discussed in the Board of Directors if we're going to make the resource accumulated of the capital integral. There is no definition in regards to that.

Some shareholders -- maybe they didn't follow the disinvestment on the XP? What are the reasons for that -- for the decision? [indiscernible], [ Enrique ], [ Alexandro ].

Well, it's good that we have -- we took it through a retrospect analysis. Well, that participation, we received it in a passive way. It was from a few years ago from the -- from Itau Unibanco that we distributed the shares directly to its shareholders. So Itausa is a big shareholder of the bank has 37.5% of the capital received, 37.5% of the shares that the bank had at XP at that moment. Since the inception of that, we announced that this is not a strategic investment for Itausa in the sense that our investment in the financial sector is given through Itau Unibanco and not other companies that are in competition with Itau Unibanco. So since the beginning, we are going to do a gradual sale of that participation. And we've done so for all these years. We're going to continue down this path. We still have 3.3% of the shares of XP, and we hope that over the next few months, we will be able to finish with our participation and liquidate these final sales. Always taking into consideration enterprise, what are the best market conditions. We don't have any urgency, no use for that capital at this moment of cash that we would receive. We are going to work as we've done over the last few years over 2021 and '22, following the rules. And having the opportune moment of sales for the final sale of the participation that we still have at XP. But with a lot of these, the company is doing well. We have a great result. And with the increase in profitability, there is no rush to sell the shares. But as I said, it's not strategic for Itausa in the financial sector.

Alongside with this issue of the investments of XP, we received a provocation for Madriano and Pedro. Why -- with the money with the sales of XP, why doesn't Itausa also repurchase its own shares?

As I commented before, I think that the best capital allocation for Itausa at the moment is the reduction of the debt. We can see today that we have BRL 1 billion approximately of financial expenses annual. So it's a very high value, and I think that we can reduce that. The repurchase of shares is not at this moment in our opinion, the best way to allocate the capital of Itausa. So reduce the indebtedness and doing new investments, that would be the best way to return -- to give a return to our shareholders and our investors. So it's not -- we do not see this as the best way to do the capital allocation at the moment.

Here is an interesting question from Pedro [indiscernible]. He talked about this. How should I think about Itausa in regards to the position of the holding itself as a company that generates dividends, so great payment payer of dividends or a case of growth.

Well, it's a good question. I think that both. I think that we think a lot in the long term. We've had the capacity to do great investments with solid companies. The banks are -- will be our crown jewel always will be. Itausa pays good dividends. There were 2 years 2017, '18, if I'm not wrong, where the bank distributed a capital access that we had at that time that it was very good and we pass that on to our shareholders with which generated a feeling that Itausa paid enormous dividends, with dividend yield very high. Now Itausa always distributed around 40% of -- 40% of its results with the dividends of Itau Unibanco. So I think that the dividends are good. They're recurrent. We paid quarterly or per semester. So the dividend yields of Itausa is good. It's about 6%, 7% and that at an interest rate level we can verify over the next few years is very adequate. So I see us as a good payer of dividends with adequate yields but also a company that tries to grow in its portfolio throughout the next few years. As I told you and I commented in our previous meeting, we are in a valley. The companies that are nonfinance are with big investments, they're reducing their indebtedness. So we are at a valley of payments of dividends and JCPs. I believe that as this investment is more mature and there is -- and improves the need of investment. It reduces the indebtedness of the companies, we're going to see the non-finance sector of Itausa payment paying more dividends to JCP which potentially will increase the dividend beyond the one that we start to receive from Itau Unibanco. We have to see over the next few years, going back to your question, it's both. We have the payment of dividends and good growth.

Alfredo, here, several questions about dividends you commented a short while ago, they're asking the drop -- about the drop in dividends even with the growing results that we have, what is the expectation of increase of the dividends, Thiago, [indiscernible], several are asking that.

Well, just to reinforce, we have that practice of dividend distribution by Itau Unibanco. That will continue. This is part of our tradition. And as I told you, Itau is at a valley. And over the next few years, we're going to continue to see an increase of the dividends of JCP that are received from our investment companies, and then we can pay more dividends that are received by Itau Unibanco.

[indiscernible] asks I would like to know if Itausa wants to be a part of the new market of B3?

No, no studies on that. Itausa is a company that has practically all the requirements to take part in the new market, but we do not have shares, ordinary shares. We have preferential shares and ordinary. So there is no study to transform all of our capital in shares, but we have a solid requirements from legislation and the regulation of B3 in regards to the ordinary common stocks, we have high rankings in the grades. So we service in practice, mostly everything. But with the exception that we only have common shares. So there is no plan for the capital structure of Itausa in that sense.

Question about Alpargatas. Matias, Olivera, [indiscernible] want to know. Facing the results, what is the expectation for the next results of Alpargatas. And Fabio, would like to know how is the procurement -- the hiring of the new CEO and how is the restructuring of the company.

It's interesting. Alpargatas in fact, in fact, we lost our hand, as you say, with the company, there were several problems with logistics expansion, exaggerated looking at the past and the product line. So that brought a lot of complexity in marketing and production in the shop floor that we didn't see that in an adequate way. So we had issues as there was a lot of stock. There were logistics issues I think that this is a fact and we cannot deny it. Now we are in the phase of restructuring. We have the interim CEO and they were at the Board. They know the company. We had a great career -- well successful wherever he went, and we are projecting many of these problems fixing a lot of things, our new CEO already has a firm hand in the controls and the costs. So I think that we're going through the worst moment in terms of results and operations of the company. And we hope to have a new CEO by the end of the year. We -- of hiring and interviewing and analysts that are preselected, and we are going to go until the end of the year, the new CEO -- but we understand that the new CEO will receive the company in a better situation than what we are facing right now. Well, we faced a bottom of results of Alpargatas. And I believe that due to the restructuring and changes in mentality. And we hope that over the next few quarters, we can show positive results.

[indiscernible] asks us if we have the intention of increasing the participation of the companies that are part of the portfolio.

Well, it's always an alternative. We have valuation of the companies that we potentially can take part. So one of the processes is to see and purchase in the shares that we already take part, what is the return that we can expect due to the perspectives from this company. So yes, it's part of the analysis of our portfolio management to evaluate the companies that we have to increase a participation or not. But I repeat and I highlight at this moment, the priority facing the macro political economic scenario. Our priority now is to reduce.

Well, I think that we answered almost all questions, Well, I think that we answered most of the questions, but we have the Investor Relations team that is always available. And our channels are always available. We have a website of IR and mail. So we also have our social networks, YouTube, newsletters [indiscernible]. We have all the portfolio of Itausa. You can follow us from the portfolio and the shareholders, and you can follow us there. So we got to the end of the event. I would like to thank you for taking part, all of you with the active participation, and I wanted you to contribute so that we can continue to evolve even more with this moment. So use this QR code that is taking part at this screen or click on the bottom here in the transmission. So you can access the questionnaire -- satisfaction question. It's important to receive the criticism and -- the constructive criticism and the improvements, so we can improve the event. Alfredo, thank you very much for your participation. Certainly, the highlight of the event.

Thank you, Priscila. Thank you, everyone. The second part in our event, I believe that we had this time, a longer Q&A session. I think that was good. We have a great dynamic, and we can see the interest of our shareholders and investors and the analysts that are doing research, that are bringing reports on the company. I think it's an enriching event, and we are evolving in how to service all the demands of the shareholders and to reinforce what Priscila said. We have a great return over the social networks. You can follow with the IR. So I'm very happy that we can service our shareholders. Very happy that we can bring good results. We've constantly done so. And I hope that you -- once you take -- once you run everything and understand everything that you can take part in the increase in capital of our company. This is an opportunity to buy shares of Itausa at a very attractive price. So I hope that all of you will take part in the increasing capital so that we can grow the company, thinking on the long term and bringing good resources for everyone. Thank you for your participation. It's always good to have you here taking part, and have a nice day.

Thank you. [indiscernible] on results is here. Thank you for your participation. Goodbye.