Kendrion N.V. (KENDR) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, everybody, here in the Novotel and on the webcast, and welcome to Kendrion's Q4 and Full Year 2024 Results Presentation. My name is Jozef van Beurden, Kendrion's CEO; and with me here is Jeroen Hemmen, our CFO. This morning's agenda. I will start highlighting the strategic repositioning of Kendrion that we've implemented in 2024 by selling almost our entire Automotive franchise to Solero. Jeroen will then review Q4 and the full year 2024 results, after which I will give you an update of the progress we have made operationally over the past year, including ESG. Next, I will discuss the outlook for the remainder of the year and go to Q&A. Before discussing the strategic repositioning, I would like to draw your attention to the following. Certain statements contained in this presentation constitute forward-looking statements, and these forward-looking statements rely on several assumptions concerning future events and are subject to uncertainties and other factors, many of which are outside the company's control that could cause actual results to differ materially from such statements. Today, we are here to discuss our Q4 and full year 2024 results and to present a new Kendrion, a Kendrion that is no longer active in both the Automotive and the Industrial markets. A Kendrion that will continue its business as a pure-play industrial company. A Kendrion that will focus exclusively on opportunities within our Industrial Brakes and Industrial Actuators and Controls business Groups in Europe, China and the U.S. And a Kendrion that is a global niche leader in selected industrial market segments that we expect will sustainably grow its revenue through the economic cycle with a goal of achieving a profitability of at least 15% EBITDA. A Kendrion that has and will select promising industrial market segments against 3 criteria. We're looking for business opportunities with a clear product differentiator based on our deep expertise in valves, actuators, brakes or control technology. The product market combination needs to offer superior profitability of at least 15% EBITDA and preferably more, and it needs to offer healthy growth potential of at least 5% and preferably more. As a reminder, why did we sell automotive? Over the past years, we have seen significant and relatively fast changes in the automotive market. These have led to strategic changes at Kendrion, such as putting more emphasis on industrial through the acquisitions of INTORQ and 3T. The automotive industry is in a major transition, which also means opportunity, but to make full use of the opportunity require substantial and ever more investments in R&D and in production equipment. We found ourselves more and more in a position that we had to choose. Do we invest in a specific automotive opportunity or do we instead allocate the funds and the resources to industrial? So, we arrived at the conclusion we could not support both investment in Industrial and Automotive and that we had to make a choice, which led to the strategic decision to put our focus exclusively on opportunities within our Industrial Brakes and Actuators and Controls business Groups in Europe, China, and the U.S., where we believe we can make better use of the growth and profit potential. We also believe we can substantially improve the Group's EBITDA margin profile. As you can see from our 2024 results release, the transaction has a significant impact on our revenue mix. As of October 2024, we are a pure-play industrial Group with around 39% of revenue in Industrial Brakes, 40% in Industrial Actuators and Controls, and 21% in Mobility, consisting of our electronics production in CBU and smart damping in China. The Mobility business that we used to refer to as retained automotive has been fully integrated into IAC, is managed separately. We will also report the numbers of the Mobility segment separately as we did before with automotive. The divestment of Automotive in Europe and the U.S. is now effective, has driven a fundamental change in our strategy. We are now a global niche leader in selected industrial market segments, and we aspire to a profitability of at least 15% EBITDA with strict criteria for the market segments that we invest in. It needs to be a productive opportunity with a clear USP based on our deep expertise in valves, actuators, brakes or controls technology. Second and related, the product market combination offers superior profitability of at least 15% EBITDA, and we're looking for healthy growth potential, typically 5%, preferably more. In other words, no USP, we will not engage. Not enough profitability, we will not engage. No visibility to at least 5% revenue growth per year, we will not engage. And we see plenty of opportunity in the sweet spot in the middle. At our Capital Markets Day of September 5, 2024, Olaf Detlef for IB, Robert Levin for IAC, and Telly Kuo for China have presented around 15 concrete examples of these opportunities, all of which are in the middle of this diagram. Each opportunity is different. Each has its own dynamic, its own competitors, its own leading customers, its own USP, and in some cases, its own roadmap. However, each niche, each opportunity shares the characteristics just mentioned. Some may be relatively small, but added together, they represent this substantial and tangible opportunity for at least 5% growth at an EBITDA of 15% or more. And we've set internally clear financial criteria before we invest in a market opportunity. New business investment decisions are made per project and based on a strict set of criteria, an added value margin of at least 50%, steady-state fully costed EBITDA margin of more than 15%, a lifetime ROI that is larger than 25%. We have minimum lifetime and EBITDA requirements that vary a bit per business Groups, even per segment. And furthermore, we will mandate volume-based pricing for all customers, meaning that lower-than-expected volumes will be priced higher and better volumes may attract a discount. If we're talking about investment in R&D, tooling or production equipment, we will implement co-investment and risk sharing requirements by the target customer of at least 50%, and of course, as mentioned earlier, we are looking for clear differentiators through intellectual property, specific know-how, product USP to be able to protect our added value margin and pricing. Related to the strict financial business investment criteria, M&A is back as a strategic tool. We have done 2 significant M&A deals over the past 4.5 years. We acquired INTORQ in January 2020 and 3T in September '21. In our view, these transactions have strengthened Kendrion and have broadened our strategic options. With the divestment of Automotive, we've also created the financial room to consider M&A. We have clear acquisition criteria and we combine that with a disciplined approach to potential transactions. First and foremost, when offered an opportunity, we look at the strategic fit. The transaction must be in direct support of our strategic objectives, so targeting industrial companies closely aligned with either IB or IAC areas of focus. It must support our strategic objective of profitability-led growth. We're looking for tangible identifiable synergies to justify the acquisition premium and we see access management and importantly, we look for a good cultural fit with Kendrion. Post close of the transaction with Solero, our M&A efforts are supported by a stronger and healthy balance sheet, and we will continue to use M&A using this criteria in a straightforward and a disciplined manner, which leads me to the final slide of my presentation before I hand over to Jeroen. Kendrion is now a simpler, more focused organization. And this is the way we are organized. We have 3 business leaders responsible for IB, IAC, and China. We have the Head of IT and the General Counsel, all part of the management team, in total, 7 people, simple and effective. Now let's go to Jeroen for the financial review and the dividend proposal.

Thank you, Joep. So yes, good morning. I will present the business review for the fourth quarter and the full year of 2024. Despite continuing market weakness, especially in the industrial market, we have reported good growth in our activities. Revenue in Q4 increased 8% and was also notably higher than it was in Q3. The revenue increase was driven by ramping up new projects in the Mobility segment that includes the retained Automotive activities after the divestment of most Automotive activities to Solero. Mobility increased 39%, while the combined industrial Groups reported stable revenues. In IB, where we had seen significant revenue decreases since the mid of 2023, we continue to see some early signs of recovery, albeit still on a low comparable basis. Our EBITDA decreased with 5% and was affected by EUR 1 million in inventory reductions and some temporary dis-synergies after the Automotive divestment. While automotive still contributed for services provided by the central organization, such as IT and headquarter cost in the previous year, this was much less the case in Q4 2024. But as announced earlier, we have addressed these dis-synergies and have implemented substantial cost savings starting in Q1 2025 that will offset these dis-synergies and more. Normalized net profit improved substantially in Q4, and it was driven by lower interest rates and tax charges. For the full year, we realized a revenue decrease of 2% as weak industrial production globally and in particular, in Germany affected our end markets. EBITDA from continued operations decreased by 11%. EBITDA was affected by an unfavorable sales mix with growth in Mobility offset by revenue decreases in the Industrial Groups. In addition, we were faced with the temporary dis-synergies after the sale of Automotive, as mentioned earlier. With the announced net cost savings of EUR 9 million, of which EUR 2 million related directly to the continued operations, plus our strong focus on improving our added value margin, we believe that 2024 has been a pivotal year in fundamentally improving our profitability for the future. And then some words about the Business Groups. The Industrial Business Group reported 15% lower EBITDA on 7% lower revenues. EBITDA was affected by the lower revenue and absorbing a higher share of the central cost, again, the temporary dis-synergies. The retained Automotive business, the Mobility segment, which is integrated into IAC, but reported on separately, realized 21% revenue growth and 19% growth in EBITDA. We expect the profitability of Mobility to be significantly enhanced by sales price increases and the integration of our retained European activities in the Romanian plant in CBU that was finalized in December 2024. Then to cash flow and our financial position. Free cash flow from the continued operations was healthy with EUR 12.1 million, a cash conversion of 105% over normalized profit. The normalized free cash flow from the discontinued operations was negative and affected by the discontinuation of a receivable factoring program and the timing of the divestment. The sale per the 30th of September included the seasonal uplift to free cash flow in December caused by extremely low working capital requirements in December. Our leverage ratio based on the definitions in our lender agreement was 2.7 at year-end and when pro forma, including or excluding actually the divestment proceeds that we are still to receive, it would have been 2.4. We expect to receive the final EUR 8 million purchase price later in Q1. Capital investments of the continued operations amounted to EUR 13.6 million, significantly below the depreciation level of EUR 15.9 million. Investments mainly related to new production lines in IB and IAC. And then finally, to our dividend proposal. As you know, as part of the long-term targets of the new Kendrion, we have changed our policy to distributing at least 50% of our normalized net profit before amortization. Despite the reduction in profit before amortization, we propose to maintain the dividend at EUR 0.45 per share. This is a pay-out of 59% of the total net profit before amortization and shows our confidence in the strong business fundamentals of the new Kendrion. The total dividend amounts to EUR 7 million and as usual, the dividend is payable in newly issued shares or in cash at the option of the shareholder. And with that, that closes my part of the presentation and I hand back to Joep.

Thank you, Jeroen. I will now proceed with an update of the operational progress that we have made in 2024. 2024 has been a pivotal year for Kendrion. Under difficult economic and geopolitical circumstances, we successfully executed the strategic decision to divest our Automotive franchise in Europe and the US, a cornerstone of our business for many years. We simplified our organization, and we sharpened our focus. As of January 1, 2025, we are fully dedicated to selected higher-growth, high-margin industrial markets. And I'm proud of our employees worldwide for successfully achieving our strategic positioning as a pure-play industrial company against the backdrop of ongoing economic challenges for our business groups. We have made good operational progress in 2024 and let's look at this in a little bit more detail, starting with IAC. Starting with the markets, 2024, we said it before, not easy, especially in Germany and IAC revenue declined with 5% due to that persistent market weakness, specifically in the machine building market. And while other segments such as medical and aircraft showed strength, they were unable to fully offset the decrease. Fortunately, profitability stayed at a high level. Revenue in China was stable with a further improvement of profitability. And in the US, IAC grew with double digits on the back of strong demand for drinks dispensing valve and high-voltage circuit breakers. On the Actuator side, we started to develop new medical products based on biocompatible material. For example, a pressure regulator for oxygen gases used in anesthesia equipment is ready for customer testing. And we expanded our product portfolio and our customers in the warehouse automation market. We also finalized a larger washing machine lock project, which will start ramping this year. On the control side, the cooperation between 3T and our engineering team in Malente is deepening, which has resulted in the first 3T customer in Germany. And we keep on investing in induction heating, replacing gas and oil-based heating systems, for instance, Industrial Baking Machines. We have now a standardized inductor heating product portfolio for heated rolls between 50 and 400 millimeters in diameter. Next, let us look into 3T. 3T offers a significant enhancement of IAC's control technology portfolio with substantial cross-selling opportunities. And these cross-selling opportunities are beginning to yield results. As I mentioned, the first 3T project in Germany is a fact. 3T's revenue in 2024 was stable after growth of 23% in 2023. And we have many projects in our pipeline, which we expect to drive further growth. The main constraint to growth is our ability to recruit enough hard and software engineers and to that end, our new location in Drachten is successful. We started with 3 engineers about half a year ago, and we now employ 6. Next, Mobility. In Q4, we completed the setup of our mobility business in CBU. All EU-based mobility products are now produced there, so in CBU with some engineering support based in Malente. Finance and HR support is supplied by Kendrion Industrial CBU to avoid duplication and to keep the cost down. This was quite a bit of work. First of all, we needed to implement a significant restructuring of R&D sound engineering resources in Germany, which we finalized in December 2024. We moved the sound actuator production from Malente to CBU early in the first quarter in January of 2025, and we finalized the engineering work on a sound project for [indiscernible] and started the production. And finally, we have implemented the first price increases to ensure better profitability. So in summary, Mobility CBU is ready and open for business. Next, IB. As you may recall, IB saw a sudden and severe slowdown in the second half of 2023 after 2 years of around 20% organic growth. The good news is that the IB market has stabilized following that slowdown. So over the full year, revenue declined with 10% compared to 2023, but in the second half of 2024, IB's revenue was 7% higher than in the second half of '23. The measures taken immediately following the slowdown have resulted in a significant better profitability for IB in the second half of 2024 than compared to a year earlier, and we continue to work on our operational cost level. Short-term work remains in place in Villingen and Aerzen, however, it will most likely be phased out if the current revenue trend continues. We're also implementing a detailed plan to improve our added value margin, which we expect to result in both sales price increases and raw material cost price reductions. So, IB is much better in shape than it was a year ago. And we're also working to improve our long-term prospects. We are looking for structural improvements at IB in 2 key areas: sales and R&D. In sales, we aspire to be more proactive with a focus on developing profitable niche markets such as lightweight robotics in Europe and automated guided vehicle wheel drive market in the U.S.A. and the medical market in India. We've expanded our sales method and are including web-based selling, telephone acquisition and social media engagement. We're strengthening the sales cooperation between the EU, the U.S.A. and India. In R&D, we've started a project to optimize the size and improve the effectiveness of the organization. As part of that effort, we've decided to start the development of a new permanent magnet slimline brake for mid torque Servo motors. Let's go to China. China had a good year. Our revenues there were up 25%, mostly driven by growth in mobility. In the industrial, we prioritize existing large markets like wind power and energy distribution, and we are active in new markets like medical dialysis, ventilation machines, robotics, and motion controls. Many of these segments are stimulated by the government's 14th 5-year plan. We continue to anticipate fast growth in China's EV market. For a few years now, China has become the largest EV market in the world, and it keeps on growing. In '24, we ramped several projects on the back of nominations won in 2022 and '23, and the result was the growth of our mobility business in China by around 150%. We're nominated by leading Tier 1 players in active suspension systems for the EV market, including air spring and active-damping modules. This is a healthy market growing fast with a potential total revenue value for Kendrion of EUR 80 to EUR 100 per vehicle. And our nominations with China-based Tier 1 companies include deliveries into EV brands, including BYD, Chery, Geely, GWM, Leapmotor, Li Auto, NIO and others. Which brings me to ESG. Let me first talk a bit about the state of affairs when it comes to CSRD compliance and the disclosure requirements related to that. CSRD stands for Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive. The directive is a legislative act by the EU that sets out a goal that EU member countries must achieve. The directive, as such, is not the same as a legally binding requirement. It requires the individual EU member states to implement that directive into law. And as of today, several member states have not yet implemented the CSRD into law, including the Netherlands. This is a source of confusion for all companies that need to comply and for the auditors who need to provide limited assurance on CSRD disclosures. As an aside, companies need to comply if they have a net turnover exceeding EUR 40 million or with assets exceeding EUR 20 million, or with a workforce comprising more than 250 employees. So this applies to a lot of companies, clearly including Kendrion. And it has resulted in 65 pages of disclosures in our 2024 annual report. To add to the uncertainty, there is currently an initiative ongoing in Brussels to significantly simplify the CSRD, and this has the potential to change everything. However, this may or may not happen. The timing is unclear, it may or may not change what will ultimately be required from companies under the law once it is passed. As they say, clear as mud. So much for the disclosure, and let's talk about what this is ultimately about: making progress on ESG as we at Kendrion have done over the past 10 years. So here's our plan for the next 5 years. First, on natural capital, we aspire to achieve a further 70% reduction in CO2 emissions on top of the reductions achieved already. When it comes to social and human capital, we have set ourselves the goal to improve gender diversity by at least 25% with a minimum threshold of 33% at the business group level for indirect staff. And as a responsible business conduct, we are working to integrate our ESG metrics into our sourcing process and to sustain our ESG ratings from EcoVadis and CDP. We also aim to comply with the disclosure requirements related to the EU taxonomy, the Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism or CBAM, CSRD and Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive or CSDDD. I must say I'm concerned about the complexity of the various disclosure demands as laid out in the various EU directives. Fortunately, it seems as if the European Commission is starting to realize this. All this disclosure puts European companies like Kendrion at a disadvantage internationally. Our own Wopke Hoekstra on Wednesday in the FD lamented all the rules and pleaded for drastic simplification, and I passionately agree with him. I'm excited to try to be progressively cleaner as a company, and I think this is where we have made excellent progress with the ambition to do much more. For instance, when it comes to CO2 emission reduction, as we implemented the first 2 ESG plans starting in 2015, we've realized a CO2 emission reduction of almost 50%. And in the next 5 years, we aspire to achieve a further 70% reduction. And for me, this is what our ESG program is about. Let's go to the outlook. We expect the economic conditions in the first half of 2025 to largely mirror those of 2024. At the same time, analysts view the recent election of a more business-friendly government in Germany, along with China's measures to stimulate its economy as positive developments, though the full effects of both remain uncertain. We are also noticing the first signs of restocking in some industrial segments, especially in Europe. The potential impact of anticipated trade tariffs on the global economy is yet to be determined. I do want to emphasize that Kendrion's strict operational local-for-local approach where regional factories rely exclusively on regional suppliers and regional customers. This long-standing approach limits the direct impact of those potential U.S. tariffs on our business. But of course, the broader economic effects may still influence the company. With our repositioning as a pure-play industrial company focused on selected high-growth, high-margin industrial markets, we are well positioned to capitalize on an economic rebound when it occurs. And even if the challenging economic environment persists for a while longer, we remain confident in our financial targets, which are achieving an EBITDA margin of 15% to 18% from 2025 onwards, an ROI of 23% to 27% by 2027 and delivering annual dividend payments of at least 50% of normalized profit as evidenced by proposal to distribute 59% of normalized profit over 2024. And with that, I would like to open the floor for Q&A.

Firstly, you expect to deliver an EBITDA margin of at least or let's keep it simple to 15% this year, which is quite an increase compared to what has been generated in 2024. Could you maybe provide some information about how you will achieve that? How to bridge that by organic growth, gross margin improvement and OpEx savings?

Yes. Just -- and you may want to add to this a little bit later. But first of all, the 2024 results are complicated to interpret because there's a lot of effects related to the deal itself and then to the subsequent reorganization. So the first effect is that from January 1, the full EUR 9 million that we have taken out as a result of the transaction is effective. And in Q4, for instance, that was not yet the case. So that is point one. The second point is that we are -- we have a concerted effort, specifically in IB in China and in mobility to increase our added value margin. And this is not just some wish. This is a concrete plan that we are implementing and some of it has already materialized by raising prices and by working with our suppliers to make sure we don't pay too much. That has a large effect as well. And the final point is, as we always do, and that depends a little bit on how the economy is behaving, we aim to be -- to continue to look at costs. I talked about the IB R&D effectiveness and making sure that we get a bang for our buck there as well. So we're not dependent on an economic rebound. Clearly, if and when that happens, and it will happen at some point, this will help enormously because the operational leverage, as you know, helps us. But even if we are in the same economic mode -- mood as we were in '24 and in '23, towards the end of the year, we're going to need a bit of time for the initiatives that I just mentioned. We are going to be at or very close to that 15% EBITDA. If that small restocking trend that we seem to be looking into persists, then that will make our life obviously a bit easier.

Then if I interpret your words then more or less organic growth will be modest because what we see in Europe, you mentioned it yourself, although some green shoots, it's going to be modest. China, okay, that looks solid with strong growth. So most of that achievement will be achieved through gross margin improvement and OpEx cost reduction?

Yes. We will -- so we have -- of course, you make a plan. We do not count, that's how I would phrase it, on substantial economic tailwind. There's quite a few programs in the hopper that will ramp anyway that will help us. But as long as the machine building industry is in bad shape, that's clearly going to dampen any organic growth. So we're not dependent, that's the statement on an economic rebound to get to that target.

Okay. And then concerning your development in AIC, down 7%. However, that also includes 3T, which had a stable performance. And if I correct for that, then the operations of AIC, excluding 3T, must have declined by some 12.5% in that range. What happened over there? Because you also talked about some green shoots and from minus 12.5% to some green shoots, that's also quite a gap.

So you said 12.5%, I don't recognize that.

No. But if I exclude the revenue of AIC, excluding 3T.

Which was flat. Jeroen, you want to comment on that?

Well, the presses or… Yes, the question is what -- you mean is it -- let's assume it's about 10%. I'm not sure that's the case. You mentioned it was 5%. But anyway, IAC has been a lot more stable. I take you back to '21, '22, '23. IB was growing with 20% per year, and IAC was growing with less 5 to 10. On the way down, that was the same effect. So on the way down, IB really dropped by 30% in the second half of 2023, and IAC dropped but far less. They are, of course, still subject to the same machine-building industry slowdown that we're seeing everywhere, just not to the same extent as IB because they're active in some segments, and I mentioned some of them. I mean, airplane building is doing pretty well. There's some new products in induction heating that are ramping up. We make actuators for the safety valves for nuclear power industry. That's actually doing pretty well. It's just not quite enough to completely compensate for the downturn in the machine building. But so it's the same trend, but it's a bit more muted, both up and down compared to IB.

And lastly, for the moment. Your performance of mobility, particularly in China, was very strong in the fourth quarter. You mentioned due to ramping up all kinds of projects. And the level we have seen in Q4 on a quarterly basis, will it also be an indication for the revenue going forward for these next 4 quarters in the year?

For China.

Yes.

Yeah, roughly, I'd say a bit of growth again.

A bit more. I'd say the same level plus a couple of percent.

Martijn den Drijver for ABN AMRO. I was wondering on this you've mentioned pricing, R&D effectiveness, procurement helping you in the course of 2025. Would you be able to give us a bit more granularity, maybe a target in terms of savings or an uptick that you're targeting for your gross profit or your value add, just to give a real sense of what it does?

Yes. I mean, to be specific on the target, it is tricky. I mean you understand that increasing prices is -- doesn't make you very popular at customers. At the same time, we do believe and we've come from an inflationary environment. We believe we have some making up to do there. So we're working with our customers in a very collaborative manner. So the point more is that it's not just that we say, Oh, I need you to go from X to X plus 2%. We have concrete plans to have quantified the target into specific actions in time that we are now rolling out. As you can also imagine that if you expand your added value margin, every percentage point, of course, drops straight down. So it's quite a lever. But the reason we mentioned it is because, one, it also relates to the fact that in an industrial franchise, we have more USPs, unique selling points. We have more IP. We are dealing in principle. I mean, in automotive, you're always dealing with customers that are 25 or more times larger than you. So the whole pricing power discussion is different. And all we're doing is we're telling our businesses make use of that.

So some companies are, for example, willing to say pricing 2025, we expect between 1% and 3% and procurement savings between 20 and 40 basis points of gross profit that would be impossible for Kendrion to do.

What we're saying we're going to hit that 15%. And that has to do with a number of things, as I mentioned, one, the costs that we took out that were not out yet in Q4; two, added value margin expansion; and three, continued emphasis and efforts to make sure that we're as effective as we can with our cost. And that will result to an expansion of the EBITDA from where we are today to 15%. But to split that out, I understand why you would like to do that is a bit tricky and sensitive in the public domain.

And just a follow-up on that one. You're working on those programs right now.

Yes.

Towards the end, we should see the first effect. So the full effect will be visible in 2026? Or do you think that such a program will take longer to implement?

No, no. It should be -- hopefully, there's, of course, a lot of the economy at the end of the day, you have to do with it. There's quite a bit of stuff happening in the world, as you know. But hopefully, you will see progressive -- progression per quarter. We'll try to break that out to some extent if we can.

Now you started your presentation with the selection criteria of projects. And it seems as though there was much more data, much more stricter conditions than you, for example, outlined during the Capital Markets Day. Is that just my impression? Or have things changed?

No, no. Maybe I used a bit more words, but this has always been the slide was the same as during the Capital Markets Day. Maybe in my script, I elaborated a bit more. But the slide is the same. But the reason we thought it was useful to repeat it is because we're very serious about it because that is not something because this -- now we're talking about projects that we're working on and that will ramp in '26 and '27, but it's the best leading indicator to make sure that we sustain the profitability. And that's also the heart of the big strategic transition in one sentence is we're going from profitability driven by growth, we turn that around. Profitability comes first. We will grow, but only at that profitability level. And that's linked to that slide. It's an important slide with its discipline internally and say we will only invest if we see this. If not, we don't.

Clear. So, selectivity has remained the same, not strict. Got it. Then, a question for Jeroen, on the implementation of the software. What's the phasing of that? And what kind of savings should we expect in 2025/2026 from that?

So the software, specifically, phasing, we started. The major companies will have been implemented towards the end of the year. So we're doing it with significant speed. And the advantages are both ways. So the direct savings is part of the net EUR 9 million that we have mentioned earlier. So that will commence in 2025, and that's mainly lower license cost and stuff like that. The indirect savings from becoming more, yes, let's say, simpler, a simpler organization with a standardized tool used by all the Kendrion companies, that will kick in, let's say, gradually towards the end of the year and then mostly from 2026.

And so just to clarify also for people on the webcast, software, you mean the ERP system, right?

Absolutely.

Yes. Okay. And then a question on the free cash flow in the fourth quarter. I was not aware of this factoring unwinding element. What was the effect in Q4, just to get a good sense of the…

So it was only an effect for the automotive part. And it was a factoring program set up some years ago with one of our banks that did not continue with the purchase of the automotive business. So we had to unwind it prior to the close. The amount was, on average, EUR 5.5 million. But we got it back via the, let's say, the working capital adjustment with -- so we got it back via the purchase price, but it did impact your free cash flow from your operations.

I will have to think about that one. Because I also had a question about that. You mentioned in the initial press release on the transaction with Solero, EUR 65 million enterprise value. Now if I add up what you've received so far in the cash flow statement, which is EUR 52.5 million. You're now saying that you're going to receive EUR 7.9 million again, I get to EUR 60.4 million. So the difference between the 2 is exactly this amount that we're now talking about.

Yes, that's a coincidence. So what you typically -- of course, it highly depends on when you do the deal. So EUR 65 million is based on a certain price for your equity. It's a certain price for your debt. But it has to be a normalized debt because your working capital goes up and down. In December, it's extremely low. During the quarter, it's a little bit low. During the other months, it's substantially higher. So in September, it's a quarter end. So typically, the working capital is a bit lower than the annual average, if you calculate it on a monthly basis. So that means that, yes, you have to compensate the buyer.

Yes. So this is nothing more than a working capital normalization on your cash and debt-free basis.

Exactly, let's say, a normalized working capital level. But there, we are -- so also the working capital, the final settlement, so everything that has been done so far is based on preliminary numbers. We are currently in discussion with the purchaser on that. So the total expectation is actually that we will receive a bit more than the EUR 8 million.

Got it. And any change in terms of your working capital guidance for 2025, given the different growth parts of the 3 divisions?

No. So we have -- if you look at the industrial business that of the new Kendrion, so the working capital intensity is a bit higher because of -- especially because of stock – and many different stock items. So it's roughly 17%. I expect that to be stable. So that means that the working capital will go up and down with revenue. So the advantage of industrial is not a lower working capital percentage. The advantage is generally a higher cash flow from year-to-year. And secondly, also much more predictable and stable.

Got it. And then my final question is for Joep. Can you talk a little bit about the plant utilization in CBU in China? Where do we stand today?

Yes. So yes, plant utilization is quite fungible. I mean you can always -- and once you have the production lines, of course, you can start adding shifts and you can start working through the night. I would say for China, we are at about -- when you look at the floor space and all the production lines that are currently, of course, some of them are ramping, we're getting to 80% of that line utilized. But revenue-wise, there's still a lot more upside. CBU, there over the past years, we have added floor space twice, I believe, Jeroen. So we're still in good shape there, but the growth there is -- we're doing well. It's also -- it's a great location also from a cost perspective. So it could well be that over time, we are -- we have the opportunity with a landlord to add another hall. You could well see us do that. But that's not an investment we're leasing that facility.

Okay. And coming back to China, you said revenue-wise, we still have quite a bit of leeway. So what are we talking about? Is that one shift per day, two shifts?

Yes, it varies. But if you say -- so last year, round numbers, we did about EUR 50 million in revenue in China. You could easily -- we easily have the capacity floor space/machines to double that.

And then we would have to think about further expansion.

Yes. Well, there is the possibility to build a Phase 2. I mean, let's first -- we'll worry about it when we get there. Any more questions on the webcast?

Yes, we have received questions from two people from the webcast. I'm reading them one by one. The first one is from Tim Ehlers. Could you elaborate a bit more on the negative mix effect that led to lower margins?

Sorry, elaborate a bit more on the.

Negative mix effect that led to the lower margin.

Okay. For Q4 '24 it doesn't specify.

Doesn't specify.

Yes. So basically, it's -- I think we communicated in the past, and that's still the case. So the gross margin, the added value margin is substantially higher in the industrial business than it is in the automotive business, so also the retained automotive business. And even though it's a much smaller part of Kendrion now than it was. But when you see, for example, in Q4, mobility increasing 39% and industrial staying flat, then obviously, that has an impact on the added value margin. So even if the individual units are able to protect their added value margin, then --because of the mix, the consolidated one goes down as we have seen in Q4.

Next question by Tim Ehlers. You might have already touched upon it, but I read it nonetheless. How shall we look at the situation in China? Are you currently facing undercapacity in the newly opened facilities?

Yes. So actually, we just talked a bit about that. Well, we opened that factory in the middle of '23. So we are now -- I mean from a -- we are 50% full. We have quite some opportunities there to grow further. Last year, we grew the revenue by 25%. We expect further growth this year. So I think we're well on our way of filling that factory over the next couple of years.

And the last question by Tim Ehlers. You mentioned restocking and [ IB ] showed another quarter of revenue growth. How does the sales funnel look like? And which end markets are currently recovering and which are still weak?

Yes. Yes. So that's the sales funnel and restocking, let me separate the 2. First of all, let me qualify for the restocking. It is beginning to show. It is in selected segments in specific industries. However, we haven't seen that for a while. So there are definitely segments and companies that are looking at their inventory levels and say, I'm uncomfortable with that. I need to restock that a bit. And they will not do that if they don't see it in their supply chain if they don't see demand for that. So it's a first careful or good sign that and this has also to do with the psychology in the market. If people get more confident, then this becomes, if you like, self-fulfilling. So I don't want to overplay it, but it's been a while since we saw it. We've seen in '23 and '24 mostly destocking. So in itself, I thought it's visible enough for us to mention it here. Of course, there are lots of other uncertainties that could still change everything. So that's one. The sales funnel, and now if I look at IAC, for instance, it's looking particularly good. I talked about a larger industrial locking project. We've worked on that for many years. That's slated to start ramping in the course of this year. That's quite substantial. There are various other initiatives -- we talked about induction heating. These industrial locks, we're also looking now to implement them with companies that put these parcel boxes down. So there's lots of opportunities in these types of -- for these types of products. I talked about medical. I mean, there's a long design cycle, but we've been active in there for years. So some of that stuff is beginning to start ramping as well. So we're in good shape there. Of course, most of this stuff gets trumped by the overall economy that if that goes better, then, of course, that affects the total revenue base, but the funnel is looking healthy.

Then we have 2 questions from Frank Claassen. First one, what kind of CapEx level can roughly be expected for 2025?

I would say this because of the ERP implementation around the depreciation level. So this year, we were a bit below. So the regular CapEx will also definitely be low, as we also have stated in -- during the Capital Markets Day, but because of the ERP around depreciation. Yes.

Second question by Frank Claassen. How -- have we now seen most of the restructuring costs in 2024? Or can we still expect one-offs in 2025? And what about the cash out on these restructurings? Is there still much to come in 2025?

Yes. So the main portion is done. So you can never exclude, but surely not in the same magnitude as this year. That's not the expectation. So basically, everything is done related to the cost savings that we have announced. So nothing to be expected there. And on the cash-out, the main thing still to be paid out is a severance pay for the terminated contracts, which is about EUR 4.5 million, mostly in Q1, partially in Q2 of 2025.

We have received no further questions from the online participants.

Martin den Drijver, again. Firstly, talking about the gross margin and what you mentioned about the fact that automotive is a lower one than industrial. Is there a chance that gross margin could remain the same this year because of this mix difference that we should not be worried when we do see that it remains stable, but due to a change that...

Very good point. Yes, it could. I mean it depends, of course, on how fast the automotive mobility, specifically in China will grow. But if that happens, we'll break that up. We are -- as we told you, we are reporting the Mobility segment separately. It's reasonably small, but we will do that. Also for that reason to make sure that we can indicate what is mixed and what is actually happening underlying on the industrial side because ultimately, that's where we're focused. So we view that mobility business, specifically the one in CBU. We're running it for cash. We want as much cash flow and profitability out as possible. We're not investing in it.

To give us a little bit of a better feeling, could you more or less indicate the growth of industrial and the growth of the mobility business, just as an indication?

Well, of the margins. Margin you can look back, you can look at the added value margins that we had in automotive and in industrial in the past. That's a good indication. I don't know, Jeroen, you want to go. And we will make it clear as we go along rather than punting it now. And so to help you with understanding if you say, well, the overall group gross margin at the same level, what's happening underlying, we will try to be helpful there.

Yes. It is quite substantial, but it's not that the difference drops down to the bottom because you have to compensating effects in staff, for example, especially in the automotive business that we have retained electronics, for example, there, basically the whole cost price or substantially the cost price is material, while in industrial, you buy some material, but a substantial part of the cost price is also labor. So on the added value margin specifically, it's roughly 20% on the added value margin. So it does have an impact. So to answer your question earlier, yes, it can definitely be that we have been successful in all the areas and all the targets in the added value margin, but then on the consolidation that you think, hey, where does it end? But then you will see it back on other line items. And then if, for example, mobility continues to grow like this and industrial would continue to decrease as it has done, which we do not expect, but just as -- to illustrate, but then you would see indeed, yes, also lower cost to compensate for the lower added value margin.

Okay. Then secondly, you proposed a dividend of EUR 0.45 still for the shareholder to opt for either in cash or shares. Why still this optionality? Because when I understand you well, you're focusing much more on profitability than on growth. Nevertheless, you still project 5% to 8% growth. So why still that option? And talk about growth in the presentation, you mentioned that you target growth of between 5% to 8% to the '27 period. I missed the word organic, I do believe it was organic growth.

Yes. Well, you can add that for sure. And why do we offer that choice because our shareholders like that. That's the short answer.

Are you then considering buying back those shares issued?

Maybe you want to talk about it --at the Capital Markets Day, we had.

So yes, as part of the capital allocation, certainly, if the financial position allows it and then we will definitely consider also share buybacks, which can also be a buyback of the optional dividend. But yes, we are targeting for that, let's say, a leverage ratio of a maximum 2 before that really becomes applicable. I think we have time for one more question. If there is one online. No. Yes, just a final one. I still see some real estate on the balance sheet. When is that going to be sold? I've been hearing about that now.

Quite a bit of time. If you read in the annual report that there's -- it's in Austria, where some years ago, we closed it, but there's also a remark somewhere in the annual report, they found some pollution in the ground. It's nothing serious, but obviously, it doesn't help to sell it. We are getting closer to that is getting solved. There are a lot of investigations, what is it exactly? It's not as bad as originally worried. So yes, the hope is that we can sell this in 2025, but nothing is guaranteed. And the value on the balance sheet has taken into the additional costs that you know.

Yes, yes, for sure.

It's not material. But at one point, yes, it's nice to exchange that value for cash, obviously.

That's it. Okay. Then I think that concludes the presentation. Thank you all on the webcast and here in the hotel. If you have any follow-up questions, then you know where to find us. And for those here, you're invited for a light lunch. Thank you.