Klöckner & Co SE (KCO) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all for standing by, and welcome to today's Q4 2020 analyst and investors conference call. [Operator Instructions] I must advise all that this conference is being recorded today, Wednesday, the 10th of March 2021. And without any further delay, I would like to hand the conference over to your host for today, Mr. Felix Schmitz. Please go ahead, sir.

Yes. Thanks, and welcome to our Q4 analyst and investors conference call. With me today are our CEO, Gisbert Rühl; our Deputy CEO, Guido Kerkhoff; our CFO, Dr. Oliver Falk, and our CEO for the Americas, John Ganem. After the call, we will be happy to answer your questions. With that, I'd like to hand over to Gisbert Rühl.

Yes. Thanks very much. Also a warm welcome from my side. And with this, let's jump directly into the presentation, starting with the highlights of 2020. Yes, like for all of us, last year was really challenging. As you can see, sales went down by 40% overall. It looked much more severe in the second quarter where our shipments went down 28%, but then we were seeing a gradual recovery in the course of the year and ended up with minus 14% -- or minus 13.7%. Sales were down even more because of the lower price level, minus 18.8%. And on the other hand, gross profit and EBITDA was disproportionately lower. The decline was disproportionately lower because of, first, Surtsey effects and also price increases in the course of the second half of the year. Operating cash flow was down by 21%, but with EUR 161 million, again, very strong due to our strict net working capital management. Accordingly, net indebtedness was reduced by another 21% to EUR 351 million. The share of digital sales improved further by 13 percentage points to 45%. There was no doubt about a boost from the pandemic. Corona has clearly shown that many things were suddenly possible, and were much faster to be implemented than in the past. However, the pressure to digitize the business is also growing independently of corona as all value chains or better value networks are digitalizing. And with this, no one can leave out here. Digitizing the whole value chain is key going forward. Next slide, our Surtsey project. We reacted relatively early on this crisis. So we started to work on the Surtsey program already by the end of March. So only 2 weeks after the first lockdowns. Until end of May, all initiatives were defined together with the country organization, and we started implementation already in June. And with this, we were able to reduce already 88% of the 1,200 employees, which will be reduced until end of this year. So 1,050 were reduced already until January this year, and we closed also already 16 out of 19 branches. With this, we also had Surtsey effects already last year in the fourth quarter with EUR 15 million in the first quarter this year. The effects are expected to be around EUR 25 million. And for the full year, we expect more than EUR 100 million because of Surtsey. So with this, we will significantly improve our OpEx base going forward. Also important, the program is in the end cash neutral due to the divestments of these various sites. Next slide, a quick look on our digital transformation. So we made, again, progress at kloeckner.i, our digital hub in Berlin. So one of the major tools here is the Kloeckner Assistant. With the Kloeckner Assistant, we're automizing finally the whole sales process. We already processed, by the way, EUR 320 million in sales through this Kloeckner Assistant last year with more than 4,000 customers. Target for this year is EUR 1 billion. We are able so far to digitalize unstructured documents. We are able to recognize these unstructured documents and match them with our product catalog, which is not easy in our industries because descriptions are not standardized. And the next and final step is an automated quoting. And then we are able to automate this progress -- this process completely. That means when someone going forward will send us a fax, okay, should be a tag fax. Then when the guy is going to the fax machine and sending the fax and when we guide them back to his computer or PC and looks into his inbox, then there is already the offer. So we more or less give or can give real-time offerings -- we offer real-time offerings, even if they sent to us by fax. So this is a significant improvement. And with this, we will be able to process much more customers through our systems than so far, and we expect tremendous results out of this Kloeckner Assistant going forward. We also made further progress with the XOM Materials, our platform for the steel and metals industry. We increased our GMV, gross merchandise value, through this platform 13x to EUR 150 million last year. We already processed more than EUR 100 million this year, and our target is more than EUR 600 million GMV for the full year 2021. So also here, we are on track. Yes, with this, I hand over to Oliver for the financials.

Thanks, Gisbert. So let's take a look on shipments, sales, gross profits and gross margin for the fourth quarter. So the shipments declined from 1,250,000 tons in Q4 2019 to 1,095,000 tons in Q4 2020, which means a reduction of 4.4%. This decline was largely driven by the impact of the COVID-19 pandemic. Quarter-on-quarter, we saw a decrease of 3.8%, primarily due to year-end patterns and that pronounced due to the ongoing recovery. Our sales fell year-on-year by 9.7%, even stronger than shipments, due to the lower average selling price. As pricing improved during the year, this trend came to an end in Q4, and sales declined quarter-on-quarter by only 3.7%, in line with the lower volumes. Gross profit, excluding restructuring effects went up by 2.7% year-on-year from EUR 267 million to EUR 275 million. In Q4, we were able to benefit from the increase of sales prices. And as our inventory prices were lagging, the gross profit increased year-on-year by EUR 8 million. Quarter-on-quarter, we even saw an increase by EUR 12 million, despite lower volumes. The gross profit margin went up year-on-year from 19.6% to 22.3%, benefiting from continued margin over volume strategy. Quarter-on-quarter, the margins picked up by 1.7%. On the next page, you see the change of the EBITDA for quarter 4 on top of the slide and on bottom for the full year. So in Q4, EBITDA before material special effects increased from EUR 11 million to EUR 39 million. EBITDA reported came in at EUR 55 million compared to EUR 3 million in quarter 4 2019. Driven by the COVID-19 pandemic, we suffered from a negative volume effect of EUR 12 million in the quarter 4. Given that our price level for stock were low, we could participate from recovering sales prices, resulting in a positive price effect of EUR 27 million, especially in the U.S. OpEx supported the recovery, has improved by EUR 14 million. The main drivers were lower personnel expenses and lower volume-driven shipment costs and operating supplies and tools. Positive impact from the special effects of EUR 15 million is mainly related to the true-up of restructuring provisions, mainly severances, and based on the final negotiations and settlements reached in Q4. On a side note, we are currently advancing on our Surtsey measures. So you will see at least 1 major disposal gain in quarter 1 of EUR 10 million. Next slide, cash flow and net debt development. As you can see, we again had a strong positive cash flow, as Gisbert just pointed out, of EUR 161 million in 2020. The main reason for this favorable development was our very tight net working capital management, which led to a cash in from net working capital of EUR 117 million. Interest payments were $23 million, and we had a cash out for taxes of EUR 6 million. The changes in other operating assets and liabilities amounted to EUR 21 million. Gross CapEx was at EUR 81 million, of which EUR 50 million relate to our new site in the Greater London region. Disposal proceeds of EUR 90 million included a prepayment of the sale of the site in Germany of EUR 15 million, such the net cash flow from investment activities came in at EUR 62 million. Accordingly, free cash flow was EUR 99 million. So this development demonstrates our ability to generate positive cash flows under the difficult market conditions, which we had in the year 2020. The net financial debt was primarily impacted by the positive free cash flow and decreased from EUR 445 million at the end of 2019 to a historically low level of EUR 351 million. On the next page, the overview of our current funding portfolio and the maturity profile. So in 2020, we succeeded in renewing 3 major financing instruments. First, in April, we extended our syndicated loan facility until 2023. In October, we renewed our European ABS program also until 2023. And lastly, in November, we redesigned our U.S. facilities with a term until 2024. Here, we combined the old U.S. ABS program to a so-called combined ABL facility. So these 3 renewals, which we executed during the COVID-19 pandemic, underline our good credit standing in the European and U.S. banking market. So overall, we have utilized in December at year-end EUR 524 million or, in percentage, 41% of our facilities, including leases. There is more than sufficient financial headroom available for the current steel price level and rising volumes. So to sum it up, we have a solid financing, a strong equity ratio of 40% and a low gearing of 34%. So with this, I would like to hand over to Guido.

Yes. Thanks, Oliver. Before I go into the details of the region-specific outlook, let me take a step back to the last call we had and how the situation changed. First of all, the Brexit is done, and we do have a deal. Secondly, the U.S. Presidential election is done, and we have a clear result. And thirdly, we see light at the end of the tunnel of the pandemic. The vaccination gets distributed, industry learned how to handle the situation and the stimulus packages are in place or are starting to become effective. That's why, all in all, we're really positive for the year ahead, especially for the demand side in the second half. And in addition, as Oliver explained, Surtsey project is far advanced, now really paying off with substantial effects becoming clearly visible. We, therefore, expect a positive growth of real steel demand in Europe and the U.S., and the U.S. will certainly perform a bit better than Europe due to the relatively higher stimuli and the more advanced vaccination. Moreover, we expect a strong performance of nearly all sectors in '21. Let me come to Europe. On pricing, pricing rallied since late summer and carbon steel prices keep still moderately increasing. Raw material prices are also on high levels, still sending signals of visible upward pressure. Therefore, current pricing trend is still positive. Supply side remains tight. The demand is improving and mills also look somewhat disciplined to keep up levels. Our position in this environment, we've clearly shown that we manage our net working capital smartly. Through the crisis, we did not blindly sell off stocks. And therefore, we were able to deliver while others ran out of stock. So we now have low stock valuations on board, and that's one of the reasons why we're benefiting strongly from the recent price trend. Going forward, we will continue with the smart net working capital management and monitor all developments we do see very closely to not be able to stop going forward. Coming to the sectors. Construction was relatively steady through the pandemic. The sector was not hit as hard as others. So the pickup effect will be there, but lower compared to other sectors. Beginning of the year, the winter weather in Switzerland, Germany and in the U.S. was recently pretty severe, but this has improved now. Overall, construction might feel some lagging effect from the pandemic. However, its positive growth is expected around 5%. Nonresidential, a bit weaker. Civil engineering should grow a bit stronger with the stimulus. And therefore, we are optimistic overall for the sector that it will continue to develop nicely. Machinery and mechanical engineering has been severely impacted by the pandemic, and recovery is currently underway. What we've seen mainly is business confidence is really improving. So driven by this sentiment, we will see sector growth, and we expect it to be around 5% then in '21 as well. The energy sector is rather flattish. There are no positive effects seen despite the currently increasing oil prices, but oil and gas markets will rather be flattish, mainly slightly down. But renewables, hydrogen will be driving it, and we're preparing for that to deliver for these sectors. Automotive, mostly severe impacted by COVID-19, but we showed a sharp recovery in the second half of last year, and it's still ongoing. So there's a very trend promising so far, and we expect this sector to be up by more than 10%. Shipbuilding in Europe is clearly a bit under pressure, especially for cruise ships, currently, not really strong demand. On the other hand, gray ships there is some demand in Europe. With that, I'd like to hand over to John.

Thank you, Guido. Very similar situation in the U.S., first, just on the economy. Current forecasts are for a 5% to 6% GDP growth in 2021. As Guido mentioned, the COVID situation has dramatically improved just in the past 2 or 3 weeks. The vaccination rollout is accelerating. And certainly, optimism is rising rapidly. We saw February job gains of over 370,000. This was really the first sign of real recovery in employment, and we expect that to continue. And today, we expect a $1.9 trillion stimulus package to pass the House of Representatives, and this, in all likelihood, will lead to very, very strong increase in consumer spending as the year progresses. From a steel market perspective, supply remains extremely tight with little to no spot availability until late second quarter or even third quarter, depending on the supplier. Supply chains are hand to mouth as no backlogs are basically at historically high levels and simply not improving. And the situation is only going to become more challenging over the next 8 weeks as mills struggle to keep up with the surging seasonal demand of the second quarter and a desperate need for restocking. There's been a lot of talk about restocking, and that's what's driving demand. I don't believe that's the case at this point. MSCI inventories, Metal Service Center Institute inventories, were just reported for February, and they were down from January, and January was down from December. So despite a surging demand environment, a very high price type of market environment. Inventories are actually being reduced, not increased. So no real restocking has occurred, and that's really what's driving this extreme tightness in the market. As a result, prices remain at very, very high levels, historically high levels. For flat roll, plate prices have moved up. They're lagging flat roll to some degree, but that gap is going to close as the second quarter goes on. And we've seen further increases in long products in response to an unexpected increase in scrap prices in March of between $50 and $70 per gross ton. There is simply no sign of any price weakness in the second quarter at this point, very, very optimistic. Turning to the sectors. Manufacturing, which is a big driver for the U.S. operations, we're basically back to pre-pandemic levels. Many OEMs are actually ahead of last year in the first couple of months of the year. The ISM Index just came out for February with over 60 reporting. And very, very strong expansion, probably continuing. Factory orders up 2.6%, very, very strong increase year-over-year, and that's 9 straight months of increases. So manufacturing looks to be very, very healthy. And forecast coming from customers are only improving. Heavy equipment, also very strong. I think the forecasts are much more robust than anybody had expected. This has created tightness in the plate markets. And inventories within that sector appear to be very, very lean. Turning to energy. That's probably the one weak link in the U.S. I think the overall situation is stable, but well below pre-pandemic levels. However, things are not getting worse, and we're actually seeing some modest improvements on rig counts. And I would say, in the last few weeks, optimism is increasing with the rise in oil prices and now expected strong demand recovery, fueled by the end of lockdowns and, of course, this expected surge in consumer spending. Very likely, we're going to see travel start to increase very strongly here in the coming months. Auto sales are slightly below pre-pandemic levels. The auto companies are certainly struggling in Q1 with supply chain issues. So production is going to be somewhat moderated, but we would expect to see that only result in stronger production in the second half of the year as consumer demand will certainly improve, and there's still a need to rebuild dealer inventories. Shipbuilding, very strong for the KMC portfolio. We see very strong growth rates in both barge and defense segments. And then I think on top of that, we're hopeful that an Infrastructure Bill is going to be passed at some point here in the first half of the year, and that will further increase optimism. So like Guido said, I think the situation is quite optimistic, and the demand outlook for the rest of the year is quite positive. That's it for the U.S.

Yes. Thanks, John. So I will sum it up and give the outlook for the first quarter and for the full year 2021. Yes, for the first quarter, we definitely expect to end up on the high end of the guidance of EUR 110 million to EUR 130 million EBITDA. And as you have heard, we are very bullish for 2021 as a whole for several reasons. So on the one side, we see really sustainable prices on a higher level or even increasing going forward. On the other side, demand will remain tight, which is -- which, by the way, also plays in our hands compared to our competitors because on the one side -- because of our relationships with the mills being one of the larger distributors or service centers in Europe and North America. And also with these digital tools we are providing, we make it much, much more efficient for the mills to work together with us. And then we have the Surtsey effects of clearly more than EUR 100 million. So higher gross margin throughout the year and lower cost base. And this will end up in a great result. We cannot give a specific guidance at this point in time, but you can expect really a great result for the full year 2021. Yes, thanks, everybody. And now we are open for your questions.

[Operator Instructions] Our first question comes from the line of Seth Rosenfeld from Exane BNP.

If I can kick off, please, with regards to Surtsey. I'd like to better understand, I guess, the time line of benefits from this program going forward. Given the headcount is my understanding, the largest driver, if anything, I guess I'm surprised that Q1 guides only about 25% of the target benefit when over -- nearly 90% of headcount is already gone. So why the delay in benefit from Surtsey? And looking forward, should we be expecting kind of linear growth over the coming quarters or more of a hockey stick at some point in the future?

Yes. So due to the social systems which we have in place in the different country organizations, we could release in Europe, so mainly in France, in Germany and in Netherlands, the employees by the month of December. So the decline of the headcounts will happen in January for the first month. So we will arrive at this low-cost level then in January. And that's the reason why you do not see the full effect in the last year or so -- in quarter 4 and 3. So we reported for quarter 3 minus EUR 10 million and for quarter 4 minus EUR 15 million. And due to the further reduction of headcounts, we are expecting even higher cost reduction effects from Surtsey for the first quarter.

I understand what happened in Q4. But going into Q2, I suppose, what's the bridge from EUR 25 million in Q1 to 100 by year-end? And should we assume that you're increasing directly to EUR 100 million by Q2 with the headcount off the books? Or should we expect it to be more gradual on a go-forward basis, please?

Yes. So the remaining 150 employees will be reduced throughout the year, in the course of the year. And with this, we will have already a higher effect in the second quarter. And yes, for the full year, we're saying not EUR 100 million, we're saying more than that. So we're expecting more than EUR 100 million for the full year.

Okay. And just with regards to the outlook for steel supply, please. I think the comment from the U.S. are quite blunt that there hasn't been an increase in steel supply and perhaps incremental tightening into Q2. With regards to the European market, Guido, I'm wondering if you can give a little bit more insight on what you're seeing with regard to steel availability and lead times in this market? Are those any signs in softening going ahead into Q2, please?

So far, we don't see it because mills seem to behave, on one hand, pretty rational. And you see the cold winter with at Salzgitter and Duisburg leading to some delays. And then you have some issues at Ilva and Liberty. So the demand on the supply side will -- is currently not easing. So we see it rather tight through the second quarter and already leading into the third. It is important we are picking up. So as demand in China and everywhere else is strong, the pressure from imports is not bad. We can't get enough.

Your next question comes from the line of Alan Spence from Jefferies.

I've got 2 questions, so I'll just take them 1 at a time. The first one is around the potential bridge, EBITDA bridge into 2021. So if we take EUR 111 million before special effects as the base, volume could be around EUR 80 million. That's kind of under the assumption of demand being half of kind of the shipments you lost and then Surtsey should be another EUR 75 million leased. So I come out to kind of a base before pricing of nearly EUR 270 million for 2021. Is that the right way to think about things?

Yes. We do not have, let's say, that visibility. But I think you are right. If you talk about the Surtsey effects, as we just mentioned that before, and we will definitely have a volume -- see a volume increase against the year 2020. Those 2 effects have an impact on EBITDA. In addition, the current margin development is supportive on that. So as we said, we are quite bullish on the year. But we cannot give any guidance right now on a concrete figure, but I think we can confirm the logic, which you are applying there in your statement.

We understand where you're coming from.

Okay. And then the second one around capital allocation. I think you mentioned that net debt was its lowest number in about 10 years. So is there more deleveraging to do? Any kind of specific targets you can share? And just how you're thinking about capital allocation in the next couple of years?

Yes. Let's first look on the year '21. What -- we had a very good starting point because last year, we managed our stock systematically down to the levels which we then saw in December. And we benefited from a very intelligent purchasing at this point in time. So looking forward, that was your question, seeing the price increases on the purchasing side, but also on the sales side, this will generate, of course, a higher net working capital. And at the same time, we are expecting higher EBITDA. So those 2 effects play into the future net financial debt development, which we will manage very tightly as we did that last year. So this is what we are aiming for. And that might be not as precise as you wish to get the answer. But I think we have given the proof for how we do that, and this is a methodology we want to apply in the future as well.

Yes, that's true. And some of the disposals that we have on locations that we shut down will come in this year, in '21, so that will support it. On the other hand, you will see higher prices on the inventory and bigger volumes that will have a counterbalance, but we will continue to manage it closely. And on CapEx, we will have a stringent view. If we have cases that really work out, like some of the lasers we did in the past, where we have good and strong business cases, going forward, we'll do it, but we will manage it tightly as well. So no big changes to be expected there.

Could you just perhaps share what you expect CapEx to be for the next year?

No, we haven't given out guidance so far for the '21 year. But I think for now, it must be enough.

Below EUR 100 million.

Your next question comes from the line of Carsten Riek from Crédit Suisse.

I have 2 questions. The first one, again, on the balance sheet. Balance sheet looks better. Is there any area, any region, where you would like to actually strengthen your market position, be it at least via brownfield or M&A? And the second question I have is on the demand side. You mentioned that demand currently looks very promising. But the high steel prices usually take a toll on the customers, especially those with low margins, as we have seen that in the past. We already see the first stories where customers are pushing back, Fiat is one of those, because they can't actually cope with these prices as they can't -- as they cannot be rolled over to end customers. Do you see any of those signs as a potential risk for the business in the second half? Or as you mentioned, are you completely confident for the second half of 2021, too?

Yes. When you're a customer, you look to our sectors, automotive, so they will not reduce their volumes only because steel is getting expensive. The demand from -- especially from Asia, from China, is tremendous and in the U.S. as well. So automotive will not be impacted. Same is true for machinery, mechanical engineering. There is also demand, also not only from Europe itself or the U.S., but also from Asia and China is high. And construction doesn't also play not such a big role that construction will be reduced only because steel prices are getting higher. There might be some minor industries, some fabricators, for instance, who will have problems going forward, but our big customer segments will not be affected.

First, regarding our balance sheet, Carsten, I can live with a strong balance sheet, although I have no experience from my past unless at city. And therefore, steel by itself does not create any appetite. On the other hand, what we want to do going forward is definitely to develop, especially organic and profitable growth coming back there with the company, how can we improve. So I wouldn't rule out if something comes up smaller that might make sense, it would be a good add on. But this is just opportunistically, there is no topic that we really want to go out and just grow by buying something, definitely not, yes. We have achieved some favorable operational position now. We need to lever on that and primarily organically develop the company going forward, leverage what we have achieved and go back to organic growth.

Our next question comes from the line of Rochus Brauneiser from Kepler Cheuvreux.

I have one question on how you think about steel pricing overall, you're sounding quite bullish, as you said a couple of times. So how do you think about the widening price differential between Europe, U.S. on the one hand side in Asia? Usually, I would think, in the past, at least, when this price differentials went up by a certain amount, it has been attracting imports. And I would still guess that world ex China is still kind of oversupplied. So what is the optimism that the supply response or the input response is not happening anytime soon?

In Europe or in the U.S.?

Both.

Both. Then, this is John for -- can you start for the U.S.?

Yes, sure. I mean, obviously, in the U.S., we still have a lot of trade restrictions in place. It doesn't appear there's just going to be a radical change in policy, at least in the short term. We're certainly seeing an increase in import activity, but we just don't think it's going to be substantial enough to have a material impact on the market. At the same time, we have some domestic capacity coming onstream. I think our cause of optimism is that, that additional capacity, whether it become -- comes from the domestic side or import is likely just going to be enough to keep the market in balance with very, very lean inventories. And again, this case that it appears the economy is going to be very, very healthy and demand is going to probably grow at a more accelerated clip than we had previously expected. So I think there's a -- that's really kind of the cause for the optimism. So yes, some supply increases, but not enough to offset the positives that we see on the demand side.

Same is true for Europe, Rochus. And I do see where you're coming from. And these effects we've seen in the past. But currently, as Asia is mainly absorbing at good price levels, the supply in Asia, we don't see these import effects. And therefore, the differential between U.S. and Europe, I think, is driven by the stronger demand increase in the U.S. that we currently do see. And therefore, these balancing effects and these input pressure, we don't see it currently. Yes, usually, we would, but currently, I don't see it.

And Guido, I would just add as well in the U.S., we've seen significant mill consolidation and it is becoming pretty clear that supply discipline is going to be greatly increased, I think, as part of the new normal going forward. So this is a new dynamic that we really have to grasp and get our minds around. But I think it does change certainly the historical perspectives somewhat that what used to happen in the past may not happen in the future.

Okay. That leads me to my second question on the supply. I think you touched supply situation in Europe. We have seen nearly all of the blast furnaces in Europe have been restarted, but yet, we are not back to the same kind of output levels as pre-corona. Do you still envisage that some of the supply in Europe is being constrained by logistics or whatever? And what kind of supply response from the European mills are you still expecting from here?

Some might be because of logistics. But to some degree, we see the same pattern as in the U.S. We have the impression that there is more discipline in how mills react to the current demand increase. So therefore, it remains to be seen. I don't see an oversupply coming on short term. No signal for it.

All right. And then maybe on your working capital management. I think you have been seeing that your working capital has come down quite a lot in terms of -- relative to sales. How shall we think about this? How you participate from the upswing you were highly confident in? Is the lower inventory now a reflection of a higher stock turnover? Is it a reflection of you have abandoned low margin business? Any color to get a sense how much you can participate with the lower level of inventory forthcoming upturn would be of great help.

Okay. First of all, if you look on to the relationship between our stocks and our turnover, we can give the statement that our stock turn in -- came to the normal levels in the months of November and December. So in fact, the absolute figure went down, but if you put that into relation to turnover, then we are at those levels which we have had before the crisis. So we have the stock volume available to utilize it in the upswing price market. And I think we are also regarding replenishment. We are stocked until the end of the second quarter in average. And yes, I think that's the current situation.

I think, John, in the U.S., you also improved your stock trends significantly. Maybe if you could give us some more insights.

Yes. We've obviously been on this initiative for the last number of years. We continue to make year-over-year improvements in our inventory turn rates. And a lot of it is strategic for sure. I think digitalization is certainly helping with better demand forecasting, more efficient inventory management processes, more automation. And frankly, we're working with our supply base on some pretty, what we would say, innovative type of agreements relative to keeping lead times short, keeping pricing tight with the market, and it's really helping us, I think, outperform many of our competitors when it comes to inventory turns. And it's just part of our overall plan going forward. We're going to continue to push the envelope and see how efficient we can get in managing that working capital and specifically inventory.

[Operator Instructions] No further question at this time. Please continue.

Yes. Thanks very much, everyone, and we then see us not see -- but talk again in, I think, May or April for our first quarter results, stay healthy. All the best. Bye-bye.

Thank you. And that does conclude our conference today. Thank you all for participating. You may all disconnect. Thank you all for joining. Stay safe, everyone.