Koninklijke Heijmans N.V. (HEIJM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

[Interpreted] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the presentation the figures for 2023, a year in which we celebrated our centennial and proudly received a predicate royal during a great party at the Brabanthallen with 5,000 coworkers and partners. Before we continue with the presentation, I'd like to show you a short film about the highlights of last year. [Presentation]

[Interpreted] Yes, if I would have to mention a couple of important events besides all the wonderful projects that we started or are still realizing, there are 3 events that I'd like to highlight. Our recalibrated strategy as creators of a healthy living environment, and we'll tell you more about this, this year based on the 5 strategic pillars being well-being, sustainability, connecting, manufacturability and team. An example is the timber frame factory for a wooden housing concept horizon. It's a great example that is already actually materializing the strategy. The factory has now been opened and is operational and the first homes have been produced and installed in Eindhoven. And of course, an important milestone, the acquisition of Van Wanrooij. But before Gavin and I tell you more about that. I'd like to draw your attention to safety. For years, I've been working hard to make the construction industry safer. And at this point, I would like to express my sympathies to the relatives of the terrible accident last week at BAM in Lochem. This again reflects the potential danger of our work. Safety awareness in the industry and at Heijmans must always be at the highest possible level and it also painfully shows that we're not there yet. We also had a fatal traffic accident in one of our works. Now it was a traffic controller and was run over by a truck while reversing on the alliance works, reinforcing the Gorinchem-Waardenburg dike. We're devastated by this accident and sympathized with her family and relatives. Our safety goals 2023 have not been met, not when it comes to the number of lost time accidents, but also not when it comes to the IF rate number of lost time accidents, million hours worked, which is 3.1 and above the target of 2.0. So fortunately, we see the safety awareness at Heijmans has increased. The reluctance to report on unsafe situations has diminished and employees are daring to report unsafe situations sooner and more often. All of Heijmans with the exception of recently-acquired companies are now certified at Level 4 of the safety ladder. And the feedback from an audit was that we have moved from a reactive to a more proactive approach in terms of safety. But with 72 lost time accidents, ranging from very serious accidents to minor cuts, mean that we have to do better. We're now making additional interventions in order to get safe work done within Heijmans and the industry. Additional steps Heijmans is taking to further embed safe working in our DNA include putting tools and procedures further in audit and complying with them, clearer standards for high-risk activities and continuously developing leadership in safety in terms of behavior and culture. We also, for example, have made arrangements with the Ministry of Public Works to make working on emergency lanes safer for the industry. Too many collisions occur and as a result of working with passing traffic on freeways and this work poses too great a risk for our people. We also encourage clients to minimize night work on our road. Structural night work is unhealthy and less safe for road workers. We believe the roads should be completely close to traffic when road work needs to be done. This complete closure of roads is our preference. And yes, it does cause short heavy traffic disruption to road user. Now the key points and highlights of 2023. 2023 was dominated by volatile geopolitical and economic conditions, and the speed of climate change and the rules and regulations surrounding climate change also require greater adaptability. But if I look back on the past 3 to 4 years, it does seem to be becoming the new normal. For much of the year, the housing market suffered primarily from rapidly rising mortgage rates, lack of consumer borrowing capacity and retreating institutional investors. But now that the mortgage rates seem to be stabilizing again, the higher inflation is being translated into higher wages. We saw private home sales pick up again over the past few months of last year -- or the last few months of last year, both at Heijmans and Van Wanrooij. However, the lack of planning capacity and the cumbersome spatial planning procedures remain a bottleneck for realizing house plans more quickly, topics that require clear political decisions. And as a consequence of these market developments, we saw a sharp decline in revenue and earnings from property. At Heijmans, we adhere to our risk appetite and are reluctant to reduce our presales percentages of 70% before the start of construction. And as a result, we withdrew the project Bellevue in Utrecht from sales and did not sell some large-scale apartment complexes in 2023. These plans, by the way, do retain their potential. The decline in revenue and results at property was more than offset by the strong performance of building and engineering and infrastructure. And as a result, revenue of the whole of Heijmans increased organically by 10% to almost EUR 2 billion, and with the Van Wanrooij acquisition, the revenue for 4 months to over EUR 2.1 billion, an increase of 17%. Heijmans' organic result remained at an equivalent level of EUR 127 million compared to 2022 being at EUR 126 million. Gavin will explain this in more detail later on. Including from Van Wanrooij's 4 months results, we arrived an underlying EBITDA of EUR 147 million, generating a margin of 6.9%. So with the acquisition of Van Wanrooij being 4 months of operations 2023 in the Heijmans figures, the Heijmans margin increases from 6.4%, which is very solid, right up to the level of 6.9%. The net income remains at the same level compared to 2022 being EUR 60 million. Net profit was impacted by a number of nonrecurring costs, one-off costs including acquisition costs for Van Wanrooij and the additional cost of EUR 3 million for the celebrations of our centenary. With a net result of EUR 60 million and a payout ratio of 40%, this means that we would like to propose a dividend to our shareholders of EUR 0.89 per share at the shareholders' meeting, which is an increase of 7%. The order book including from Van Wanrooij at the end of the year was at a level of EUR 2.8 billion and has increased by approximately EUR 400 million compared to year-end 2022, of which EUR 150 million was from Van Wanrooij and give sufficient confidence towards the future, both in terms of volume and based on underlying quality. We can report that from Van Wanrooij's acquired land portfolio the net 14,000 homes or land positions has remained level and even increased slightly. And by making new acquisitions or land acquisitions, Heijmans' land portfolio now totals 30,000 homes. The increase of the number of FTEs relates primarily to the acquisition of Van Wanrooij, approximately 200 FTEs, and the growth in the services operations of building and engineering. We also conducted another employee engagement survey this year. It was completed by 83% of our employees. Two years ago, we had an NPS score of 25, and this time an NPS score of 35 as compared to 22 in the construction industry. And this just goes to show that the Heijmans employees feel very involved at Heijmans, and that makes us very, very proud. Now let's take one more look at the Wintrack file. In November, we reported that the legal proceedings with tenant regarding Wintrack II have been concluded, and we've been confident in a good outcome all these years, but then it was confirmed by the council of state, which was a relief. And with that, with a partial release of the provision in 2022 of EUR 19 million, there will be a final release of the provision of EUR 14 million in favor of the 2023 annual figures. The relationship with TenneT despite this legal dispute has remained good, and Heijmans and TenneT are today completing projects to both parties' satisfaction, which is also a complement to TenneT. And now I'd like to give the floor to Gavin for him to explain the business flows and financials.

[Interpreted] Thank you. In our anniversary year, obviously we've been looking back a lot, and quite rightly so. Financially, we only look back a year, but we prefer to look predictably ahead, as we say. And the headline of our press release was also made with this in mind. We present figures for 2023 that more than meet previously stated expectations and also provide a solid foundation for the future. Allow me to give you a bit more detail on that. Property, in line with the decline in volume in the housing market showed a decline in sales, EUR 570 million to EUR 412 million. Underlying EBITDA fell from EUR 42 million to EUR 27 million. The projects performed at a similar level to the previous year, but the lower volume impacted the hedging contribution, causing the underlying EBITDA margin to drop from 7.4% to 6.6%. There were two primary reasons for lower sales. On the one hand, it took longer -- especially at large-scale inner-city apartment buildings, it took longer to achieve the desired presales percentages that are required in order to decide to start construction. On the other hand, projects are slowing down due to increasingly lengthy spatial planning procedures, and objection procedures are taking a lot of extra time. The fact that the total number of home sales are practically the same as last year, 1,803, as compared to 1,811 is mainly due to the upturn in home sales since the fourth quarter. This positive movement gives us more confidence for the future, and we see it continuing in the first 2 months of 2024. Here, you see our area development blend project with approximately 400 homes in the north of Nijmegen, which is off to a flying start. The first 120 homes have been sold in 3 quarters of the year. The core of this success is the right housing project for the right target group, combined with good nature-inclusive vision. Based on research, it became clear which animals and insects in the neighborhood offer opportunities -- have opportunities. And it's also nice to have greenery and birds in the environment, green environment is more pleasant to live in. And green also cools down and it shows that rainwater is better absorbed into the soil. Special attention in this presentation is paid to the integration -- also financial integration of Van Wanrooij as it's the first time they're featured after their acquisition. Van Wanrooij performed slightly below expectations in terms of revenue and above expectations in terms of profit. From September 5 to year-end, Van Wanrooij achieved EUR 125 million in sales. Underlying EBITDA in this period amounted to EUR 20 million. We were counting on an annualized underlying EBITDA contribution of about EUR 30 million to EUR 40 million. Incidentally, if you extrapolate the figures since the acquisition in early September last year to a full financial year, the result is even more positive. However, this is distorted by the fact that Van Wanrooij sales, due to the use of separate purchase and contracting agreements, are more erratic during the year. For example, Van Wanrooij sold 431 homes in the first -- sorry, in the last 4 months as compared to 776 on a year-to-date basis. In the meantime, we've also conducted the purchase price allocation, the PPA, which shows that valuing from Van Wanrooij's land positions by market value comes -- amounts to EUR 257 million as compared to a purchase price of EUR 297 million. Contribution to this will undoubtedly be the [indiscernible] estate project. It's a beautiful piece of nature, adjacent to Den Bosch. And Van Wanrooij is one of the partners that realizes this. Soon there will be about 400 new homes on the [indiscernible] estate, mostly houses that -- for sale and also apartments but also rental properties. And building and engineering, we saw a 15% increase in turnover in 2023 and a further increase in the order book, which inspires confidence in the future, especially the share of recurring business increase, long-term contracts resulting from good customer relationship. This brought revenue to almost EUR 1.1 billion with a rising underlying EBITDA margin of 4.3%. Utility projects had a strong year in 2023. Here too, an increasing proportion of works came from direct one-to-one contracts, a recognition that clients see us as a partner with a clear added value. And also in services, where we do building maintenance, including technical installations, the profitable growth curve continued. And here, for example, the day before yesterday, we entered into a long-term contract with Royal FloraHolland. Heijmans Woningbouw housing is recognized by clients as specialized -- as a specialist in its field, as evidenced by the increasing number of homes built for corporations and investors, in addition to the homes built for Heijmans household. Compared to 2022, this increased by 50%, especially in housing corporations. It's not only the number of land positions that Heijmans has that can contribute to meeting the national government's construction needs until 2030. With industrial construction using the Horizon concept from our timber frame housing plant in [indiscernible], Heijmans has an important trump card. This plant has been operational since October and the first homes were placed in Eindhoven at year-end last year. This industrial modular concept enables faster, more sustainable and more affordable building. A form of national type approval, as is the case for cars, for instance, is essential, however, to actually be able to achieve affordability and speed of building. Also home and apartment renovation saw significant revenue growth last year, helped and boosted by a need for sustainability. The 2,000 homes that we renovated and made sustainable. The revenue in this regard increased significantly last year, which is very satisfactory because a few years ago, as Heijmans we put more effort into this. And now this is bearing fruit. An example of this is the improvement in sustainability of 292 homes in both [indiscernible] and the municipalities of [indiscernible] and [indiscernible], project that started last year and will be completed by the end of this year the completion of the renovation of the building at the Leiden University is a highlight. It's a place where students, teachers and researchers meet and want to stay even outside teaching hours. Leiden University aspires to a sustainable and flexible building adaptable to the demands and wishes of the future. It's been excellently achieved. Revenue at Infra rose by more than 20% from EUR 661 million to EUR 800 million. This sharp increase is mainly due to higher volume and energy infrastructure, asset management and the flood protection program. Even without the release from the Wintrack II file of EUR 40 million, Infra achieved more than decent underlying EBITDA margin of 6.6%, just above the strategic bandwidth. Infra is increasingly successful in attracting larger clients, as evidenced by the work on new water pipelines and the EU 303 framework contracts for high-voltage substations for TenneT. The station Krimpen aan den IJssel was delivered with the highest possible customer satisfaction. The acquisition of Dynniq Energy 2 years ago gives us a mature position in the energy infrastructure market, which is now bearing fruit. And then finally, as Heijmans but particularly also at Infra, we see the theme of water becoming more and more important. For example, the Médoclaan in Maastricht where rainwater is being stored. We see water quality, water safety and water quantity, that is drought in the summer and wet the rest of the year. We see all this becoming more and more challenging. But Heijmans is a leader in a healthy living environment, also tested the role of sustainability within asphalt. Infra shows this in a number of projects that were awarded last year and that are being implemented this year. Heijmans is involved in 2 of [indiscernible] of the Department of Public Works 3 projects in terms of sustainable road paving. This challenges companies to apply asphalt as sustainably as possible. This involves a major maintenance in West Netherlands South with, for example, the Benedict's tunnel and the maintenance of the A2 and A12 motorways in the Central Netherlands. Use of circular asphalt plays an important role in this. Moving away from all the financial figures, we logically will address figures on sustainability. This is a trend that will continue with the advent of reporting requirements of CSRD. We have now managed to more than halve our carbon dioxide emissions compared to 2016, which is the calibration of the benchmark here. We're also laying down ambitious carbon dioxide reduction program for the future. By 2030, we want Heijmans submissions from Scope 1 and 2 to be 0. Scope 3 emissions must then be halved in order to reach 0 in 2040, truly a bold statement. Investment in mobility of our people both in terms of commuting but also company cars and large emission-free vehicles are required. So we have more than 1,200 electric lease cars with yellow license plates. Now we are taking the next step with our grade license plates. In 2023, we will also have invested more than EUR 12 million in electric heavy equipment, such as cranes. But also because we want to become more sustainably -- more sustainable intrinsically, we've submitted our plans to the Science-Based Target initiative, the SBTi. Right now, they're testing our plans against the Paris Agreement. They'll come back to it the middle of this year. After all, sustainability should not be just words, but above all must be deeds. Now the profit and loss account. Profit and loss account was mainly impacted by Van Wanrooij in 2023. Let me first say a few words about Heijmans without Van Wanrooij. Our revenue increased with 10% on a like-for-like basis to almost EUR 2 billion. Underlying EBITDA was almost the same as 2022, where apart from what I already talked about in terms of business flows, there are two things that stand out. First of all, the release of the remaining part of the Wintrack II provision now that the appeal proceedings have been finalized. This was EUR 14 million. And for the record, EUR 19 million had already been released in 2022. Now that the case has been finalized, there are no further provisions that remain. This past year, we celebrated our centenary with colleagues, coworkers, their partners but also with customers and relations. And this led to an increase of corporate costs by EUR 3 million. But these onetime costs also include the contribution to colleagues with lower incomes that was granted twice as compensation for increased energy costs last year. So if we adjust for Wintrack to the centenary celebrations and the onetime contributions, Heijmans' underlying EBITDA would have increased from EUR 107 million to EUR 160 million. Furthermore, Van Wanrooij became part of Heijmans from September 5 and already said September 5 -- since 5 September, Van Wanrooij contributed EUR 125 million to revenue and EUR 31 million to underlying EBITDA for the purchase price allocation. The fair value step-up associated with the PPA had an impact of EUR 11 million and is related to the revaluation of land positions to market value on September 5. I'll talk about that more in a moment. The balance of these two numbers means that over the last 4 months, Van Wanrooij contributed EUR 20 million to Heijmans' underlying EBITDA. In the remainder of the profit and loss statement under underlying EBITDA, there are a couple of items that are noteworthy. In 2023, we incurred EUR 9 million in costs for the acquisition of Van Wanrooij. This includes consultancy costs, but also the transfer tax for the land. In addition, the staff of Van Wanrooij were promised a retention bonus, the impact of which in 2023 was EUR 3 million. In conclusion, two more comments on the financial income and expenses and taxes. Financial income and expenses gave a mixed picture with respect to 2023. Until September 5, Heijmans was net cash positive, which led to interest income over that period of time. After September 5, Heijmans had a net debt, which led to financial charges. Since we expect a debt for the full year 2024, the financial charges in 2024 are high-single digit. Tax rate in 2023 was higher than in 2022. This is primarily due to the fact that we have already valued all remaining past tax losses carried forward in 2022. And in addition, our tax rate in 2023 was slightly higher than the nominal rate because part of the transaction costs surrounding from Van Wanrooij are not deductible from taxes. For 2024, we expect a tax rate somewhere around the nominal rate. All this leads to a net result that, driven by nonrecurring charges, is equal to 2022 with EUR 60 million. As a consequence of the acquisition of Van Wanrooij, positive net cash position of EUR 151 million at year-end 2022 has turned into a net debt position of EUR 137 million at year-end 2023. With this, our net debt was slightly better than the EUR 150 million that we had expected at the time of the acquisition of Van Wanrooij on the 21st of June last year. And this puts us back on track to have a positive net cash position again in 2026. After the acquisition, Heijmans remains conservatively financed with a solvency of 29%, same as in 2022, and a leverage ratio of 0.7, which is well below the 1 which we indicated previously. A few more words on Van Wanrooij. Ton already hinted that from Van Wanrooij's performance and results are very encouraging. In view of the market conditions, which in June last year when the transaction was announced were more challenging than they currently are, we have issued a somewhat conservative outlook for the shorter term. We note that the type of homes that Van Wanrooij develops and builds remain very much in demand. And in that context, we have enough comfort to put down a stronger outlook from Van Wanrooij. Meanwhile, the impact of the PPI on underlying EBITDA has become clear. The upgrading of the inventory, i.e., the land positions, leads to higher accounting price for the same inventory, same stock, which lowers the underlying EBITDA. And this effect in the short term is about EUR 15 million to EUR 25 million a year. If we then look at the changes in the outlook, I'd like to highlight the following. In fact, we can fully absorb the reduction in underlying EBITDA due to the PPA. So we think that even after this impact, EUR 30 million to EUR 50 million in underlying EBITDA will remain in 2024. Van Wanrooij reported, unlike Heijmans [indiscernible] property reported gross homes rather than net homes. That means residential sales and collaborations were -- and partnerships were fully included. To be consistent and in line with Heijmans' property, we will henceforth report on net housing numbers. I would like to emphasize that these optically lower number does not affect the profit forecast, and the previously communicated housing stock of 14,000 homes is also a net number. The increased outlook also means that we expect a stronger cash generation. This has only given us more comfort as far as the earlier statement that Heijmans expects in 2026 a positive net cash position. And now I like to further discuss the PPA. As we said, following the acquisition, we carried out a PPA, purchase price allocation. And this is -- the purchase price of the transaction is allocated to assets and liabilities. The remainder that remains after this exercise is the goodwill, and you'll see this here on this slide. The amount to be allocated is the difference between the purchase price of the shares and the book value of the shares were EUR 107 million around the acquisition date of September 5. The next items based on -- have been revalued based on the PPA. Intangible assets value has been attributed to the building division that will be continued for 12 months. The most important change is the revaluation of the land positions. As we pointed out, earlier on, this is the main reason for us to acquire from Van Wanrooij. Van Wanrooij has excellent positions, and that also becomes apparent in the upward valuation of the land positions that led to a book value of EUR 117 million being increased to EUR 142 million to -- with EUR 142 million to EUR 259 million. This makes it very clear that a major part of the acquisition price is already incorporated in the company as a hard value. Increasing the value of the land positions and the order book led to -- the liability side led to deferred taxes. And the goodwill, therefore, ultimately amounts to EUR 90 million. We feel that this is an excellent situation and well related to strong profitability of Van Wanrooij vis-a-vis the future. The upward valuation of the land positions was EUR 142 million, these are the fact that the cost price of stock over the next few years will also be increased with the same amount, and that will decrease and reduce the underlying EBITDA with the same amount. Now that 14,000 homes that have been evaluated will be sold, we call this release of the fair value step-up. The impact on the profit and loss account for 2023 and 2024 is depicted on this slide. On the next slide, I shall show what the developments are in the longer term. Underlying profitability of Van Wanrooij before PPA was EUR 31 million in 2023, and we expect between EUR 50 million and EUR 70 million in 2024. In the last few months of 2023, the impact of the release of the fair value step-up is EUR 11 million. And this means that part of -- 1/3 of the EBITDA that was reported erodes. The estimate for 2024 is between EUR 15 million and EUR 25 million. I'd like to highlight that ultimately 200 different land positions have been evaluated, and that position, there are major differences. That is why we're including quite a broad bandwidth for the impact of 2024 because the number of homes to be transferred as well as the type of home and project with the pertaining fair value step-up are determining. Underlying profitability minus the impact of the release of the fair value step is a reported underlying EBITDA. For 2023, this was EUR 20 million. As part and parcel of the sales price, we agreed a retention arrangement with staff that will be recorded as a one-off charge. And this item is booked under underlying EBITDA. And finally, the amortization of the order book that has been valued at EUR 6 million will take place in 12 months. And also already 1/3 is taking place, and this is the item that is in between the EBITDA and the EBIT. I realize that reporting from Van Wanrooij and our profit and loss account can seem complex. The largest impact is the upward valuation of the land positions of EUR 142 million, but over the next few -- 15 years will gradually be shown as costs in the profit and loss account. The impact will be larger in the first 3 years. The first few years, only homes will be transferred from the current stock. And second, the projects in the near future will be awarded and contracted, which leads to a discount. And then the factor time will also be reflected in the net cash value. All in all, we're very, very pleased with the acquisition of Van Wanrooij and we've adjusted our outlook in that respect. We've increased it. Before taking into account the cost of the land valuation, we foresee an underlying EBITDA of EUR 50 million to EUR 70 million which, as a consequence of the release of the fair value step-up, will lead to a reported underlying EBITDA of between EUR 30 million and EUR 50 million. It's good to highlight that the release of the fair value step is a noncash cost item. That way, in my view, the EUR 50 million to EUR 70 million is a better reflection of the earning potential from Van Wanrooij, but our accounting rules do not allow us to present it in this way. So now to Ton for the outlook.

[Interpreted] Thank you. If I look at a broader perspective, the major issues that we're facing, well then, we really need a cabinet soon. However, I foresee that this will take some time, and that means that we will have to fend for ourselves and provide answers to the energy transition, the housing market and sustainability agenda, just to name a few issues. Am I gloomy about the future? No, certainly not. Heijmans is a predictable and robust company, and we're sufficiently agile to respond to the market as we have done in recent years and have proven that we can do so. With a total land bank of 30,000 homes that many of them have been licensed, Heijmans has become the second largest developer in the Netherlands. In the fourth quarter, Heijmans and Van Wanrooij saw the housing market pick up again. And also in the first few months of 2024, private home sales have also picked up to a good level. In addition to private sales picking up, we also see that housing associations are increasingly investing to make their housing portfolios more sustainable and also willing to invest in projects. But that does mean that governments have to accommodate additional planning capacity and spatial planning procedures need to be accelerated. Housing shortage is one of the major problems in the Netherlands. We need new homes for our children who want to live close by, homes for the elderly with care facilities or simply new homes because your family situation is changing. And I see that society is -- has become increasingly individualistic and harsher and there's little regard for the common good. So my appeal would be stop objecting to everything. We're getting bogged down in time-consuming and capacity-consuming procedures, and the people looking for homes are left empty-handed, which is sad. With the acquisition of Van Wanrooij, we have strengthened our position in the housing market and the land portfolio has become more balanced with the addition of more ground level ground-bound homes. Given the upturn in the housing market, we expect increasing home sales at Van Wanrooij. Given the recovering housing market, the timing of the acquisition of Van Wanrooij seems well-timed. At building and engineering and civil engineering, we have a well-filled order book with confidence inspiring quality. The share of recurring business in management and maintenance is increasing further. For Infra in particular, it's important that the large-scale replacement renovation maintenance of our road network is being tackled. And increasingly, we're seeing that additional measures are needed due to overdue maintenance. And if these are not carried out adequately, blockages will occur in the road network with an impact on the economic growth in the region concerned. Regarding water challenges, and Gavin referred to about already, we're not only concerned about water safety and water quality but also by regulating the amount of water in the built environment between drought and surplus. A good example is the reservoir in Hart van Zuid in Rotterdam. Heijmans wants to help transform from a petrified city to a more adaptive city in its developments in the built environment. A healthy, sound, predictable operations laid the foundation for a robust financial performance and better solutions for tomorrow. In 2023, implementation conditions were quite challenging with periods of heavy and high rainfall and extreme heat. We would like to thank all our colleagues for their commitment to achieving these very good results and laying the foundation for a good basis for the future. Heijmans for 2024 sees a revenue of EUR 2.5 billion with an underlying EBITDA of at least 6.5%. In terms of both volume and margin development, Gavin and I see Heijmans' future with a great deal of confidence. So thank you. I'd like to give you the floor to raise questions.

Kepler Cheuvreux. Well, first of all, congratulations on the results. And I have 3 questions, if I may. The first one would be, if I look at Building & Technology, and you say you want to ramp up the wooden house concept. What margin impact can we see from there? Because I can imagine that the more standardized the production of the housing gets, the better the margin gets. So we're at 4.3% now. So what's -- what's the goal going forward?

We'll share more on the goal going forward when we do the Capital Market Day on 22nd of May. But you're right, Tim, the margins will increase once we build more majorly and industry.

Okay. Then the second one would be, you mentioned -- excuse my Dutch, but [Foreign Language]. What volumes do you see there for you? So what kind of volume can you capture from that program? Do you have some numbers? Or...

I think if we look at the biggest 3 works, I think they have a total order book value currently over EUR 300 million. But more is there to come. If you look at what climate change is doing to the outside world also in the Netherlands, and you look at what recently the government was stating on the chances of flooding in the Netherlands, more dikes will definitely come to the market. And I think Heijmans is very well positioned to even capture more of those going forward.

So there's no one big budget that will be spread over years, it is more recurring if anything?

No, there is a budget in -- from EUR 4 billion to EUR 6 billion in the government -- by the government. So there's an enormous amount of money.

[indiscernible] for 1 year.

That's true.

And then the last question with regards to your CapEx and working capital. So you already mentioned that you invested more money into electrification of equipment. What's the goal going forward? Obviously, this year was a bit skewed from the acquisition. So it was a bit more difficult to see clean CapEx. And then also with the working capital, do we see an increase in prepayments and subsequently some positive effects going forward? Or what can we expect there?

Yes. So on the CapEx bit, indeed, it's skewed due to Van Wanrooij. Also in '23, we had about EUR 10 million of CapEx on the factory. I think going forward, the Infra division will still see a situation where CapEx is beyond depreciation. On the back of electrification, on getting more and more equipment electrified, I think for the next couple of years, we will still be in a CapEx over depreciation program and it will be a couple of years before that normalizes. And on your second question, the amount of prepayment as a percentage is roughly the same, but because we got much more work in Infrastructure and in Building & Technology, which are both prefunded versus our Property Development division, overall, the prefinancing went up. On the creditor side, we saw a reduction in quite late days of roughly 3%, which is also on the back of the new regulation that was put into place on the first of July 2022 where smaller companies had 30-day payment terms, and we're now at 35 days. So we're roughly there.

Okay. So positive work [indiscernible].

Yes.And that's also why Van Wanrooij is growing as of balance from a reporting point of view a bit because you will see it working capital went the other way around, but it's almost all in land bank Underlying working capital in both Building & Technology and Infrastructure is still significantly negative, as it should be, by the way, for a building company.

[Interpreted] I'll do this in Dutch, right? Yes. Okay. Great to have this slide on the outlook as well. Building technology increasing percentage of recurring business. Could you explain this in more detail? What was the percentage in both divisions? And what was the margin that you realize? You don't need to -- we don't need the exact numbers, but just a range to get an idea of the recurring business.

[Interpreted] I think that in Building & Technology, it's approximately 30% now is recurring business. So these are long-term contracts in which we work with the client. And I think there's a margin profile of about 20%, 25% higher than nonrecurring business. And if I then look at another important part of this is asset management, so that's maintenance in Infra. That would be about 20% of the portfolio with a significantly higher capacity or potential for earning money. It's important to add that, to us, these are long-term client relations. So the risk profile is different. So that means, and if you compare it to one -- accepting one-off projects, really big projects, the risk profile is very, very different from working with clients for 6, 7 years and every year generate about EUR 10 million, EUR 15 million, plus the spinoff, of course, because you have the strong relationship, yes, and there's also derived work that is to be added.

[Interpreted] The percentages that you added, was that the same last year?

[Interpreted] No, no, no. There's an increase. Well, a couple of percentage points, not tens of percentage points. But both service division within Building & Technology as asset management, they are increasing more than average -- faster than average.

[Interpreted] Second question, the CLA negotiations will lead or have already led to salary increase if there -- well, there may have already been a salary increase. What about the rest of the cost structure, building material subcontractors, energy? Is there anything you can say about that? Is there a bit of a tailwind?

[Interpreted] Well, I think it's a mixed picture. What you see is that price increases after Ukraine have normalized, but it all depends on the materials we're talking about and what's going on. And so that is why -- I think we said this about 2 years ago, out of all the contracts that we have, we want to make arrangements on indexation. We don't have -- we can't read the tea leaves. So we want to hedge ourselves for material costs, increased costs, but also reduction of cost price of material. We haven't seen that really, not across the board. Ukraine and the -- given the economic position that we're in, there might be a decline also, but we haven't seen that yet. CLA arrangements have been made first of January, 3.5%, in the middle of the year another 3.5%. So that's a high cost item. On the other hand, the borrowing capacity of consumers because the wage costs are increasing across the board, that this is also a positive element in the sales of homes -- well, not across the board. Well, perhaps not for the banks.

[Interpreted] Just to come back to Tim's question and I have another one, but then I'll shut up. what kind of guidance can you share for the entire market for 2024?

[Interpreted] I think order of magnitude, EUR 30 million.

[Interpreted] Clear. Now my last question. The JVs, all divisions have performed well. JVs has not. What is the cause?

[Interpreted] Well, that's because last year, we just did less. So it's less than in previous years. It all depends on how much work you have. It's not an underlying loss factor, if that's what you mean.

[Interpreted] ING. Let me see, the first question is about possible seasonality, Maybe a bit lame, because you have to look at 12 months but if listed -- well, and from Van Wanrooij, of course, is dealing with the normal seasonality of the home sales business in the last quarter and then the recovery that we see on top of that. If you then look at the long-term sales, do you see major deviations or differences with your own property division in the volumes?

[Interpreted] Well, I think at this point in time, sales are increasing and increasing a bit more at Van Wanrooij than at Heijmans with land-bound homes. If you -- see, if you buy a home, you pay that in equal installments at Heijmans. And Van Wanrooij, the land is purchased in one go. Once the home is sold, if you have 70% presale, all the sold homes are transferred and then you have an increase in your revenue peak. And in Heijmans property that is more phased out across the year. But on an annual basis, well, it's a given. But I think that in -- it could be more volatile at Van Wanrooij than at Heijmans, and this has got to do with structure. Yes. We don't want people to worry about what's going on at Van Wanrooij. It all depends on the projects they have in sale, which project hits the 70%. And after that, almost everything is transferred before the civil or notary, and that leads to enormous revenue.

[Interpreted] That's clear. When you announced the acquisition, I think that also in the medium to longer term, there was a possibility for the building division of Heijmans to build more of these homes. Have you already looked at that?

[Interpreted] Well, not really for our building division. But what we said is that we want our Horizon homes, the timber frame homes, wanted to place them on the land positions of Van Wanrooij. They build about half developed homes themselves. The other half is done by others, and we could also do part of that in timber frame. We haven't done that yet because right now, we've been focusing on the family leaving the company at the end of this year, and we wanted the business to run smoothly. And that's our focus right now. After that, we'll look at synergy possibilities. And furthermore, the timber frame plant is already fully booked with Heijmans projects, entirely full.

[Interpreted] Well, briefly this morning, we talked about it as well, but I'd like to -- you to shed some more light on the balance sheet positions, land position and property being operated. You see the increase of the consolidation of Van Wanrooij which you explained this morning is that the land positions that would lead to business in the short term are under operational. And -- but if you're a lay person like myself, how many millions would that be?

[Interpreted] If you look at the at-risk home building in the balance position, well, we split the EUR 207 million that can be allocated to our own land positions, and we split up what is long term and what is more short-term realization, which we are already working on projects. So we've classified it on the line of the balance sheet. In total, this is the amount. But if I look at the land back, you can just join the two, but we're trying to give you more of an understanding of the positions in the long term and what are the ones that we believe we can develop in the short term. So actually, the risk is very limited. So it's only very positive that the position is so big.

[Interpreted] Yes, I agree because it has -- it generates cash flow in the short term, which means that the colder land is part -- a smaller part than the warmer land, so to speak.

[Interpreted] And [ Martijn ] also talked about the cash flow. Are there any other extraordinary items that you expect for the cash flow this year, taxes, interest, things like that?

[Interpreted] No, no. Taxes will go to a nominal rate. That is to be expected. Of course, in terms of cash flow, we have the losses from the past. Carry forward have been evaluated, But that will lead to a cash debt, 50% of the amount over and above EUR 1 million. CapEx, I talked about that just now. We will have some one-off costs with Van Wanrooij concerning retention, but those are more or less the most important cost.

[Interpreted] So there's no EUR 10 million provision for payment cash flow?

[Interpreted] No, no.

[Interpreted] Not that Van Wanrooij was preparing large land acquisitions?

[Interpreted] Yes, they have that, but they also generate cash from other operations. So we didn't say to Van Wanrooij, go ahead and buy a lot of land. So it's a sort of recurring model. On the one hand, you purchase land and then you also transfer land to consumers. So we've incorporated that in our cash calculation.

[Interpreted] So there's nothing extraordinary?

[Interpreted] No, we can point out, Tijs, that this year, we are taking a good step to '26 -- to be net cash positive in '26. So we expect an improvement of the 137.

[Interpreted] I think I can go on a bit for a bit. I don't think there could be that many questions. One more question. The EUR 46 million depreciation amortization. That includes the PPA, right?

[Interpreted] That includes part of the order book of EUR 2 million. So you've got EUR 6 million order book. It concerns 12 months. 1/3 is behind this EUR 2 million, more or less is in the A component. And the depreciation of tangible assets of Van Wanrooij is about EUR 1 million a year, I think, around 2. Order of magnitude, relatively small as compared to Heijmans.

[Interpreted] And then in conclusion, EUR 3 million for a party in Brabant, 112 beers per person?

[Interpreted] No, well, it was a centenary of Heijmans, so there were all sorts of components involved.

[Interpreted] Yes, ABN AMRO. I'm on a fishing expedition because you opened Pandora's box on the Capital Markets Day. Can we expect you to establish an EBITDA margin over and above 6.5%?

[Interpreted] No, we're saying at least 6.5%. That's what we're saying, and we'll stick to that for the moment.

[Interpreted] But if mid-26 or year-end 26, you want to move to net cash, and then you have a very low net debt-to-EBITDA ratio? It's not very high now either. So is there anything we can expect in terms of change in strategy at Heijmans with respect to acquisitions? Let me reword it, capital allocation. So you're going to generate good cash flow. What are you going to do with it?

[Interpreted] Let me put it this way. I think last year, I said, one, we're looking around, we said that last year. And one, we want to invest in material and two, we wanted to grow also in our land portfolio and we're also looking at possible potential acquisitions. The last 2 have been combined this past year, and we continue to keep our eyes peeled. That's what we're doing. So we're going to stay on track now.

[Interpreted] You want to be prudent and you want to be able to manage things. So what if you don't find an appropriate acquisition candidate? So what if there are no options?

[Interpreted] But then, well, we'll have to wait and see then.

[Interpreted] [indiscernible] Could you perhaps tell us a bit more about competition in the Netherlands? There were lots of foreign companies coming to the Netherlands doing some works and then leaving again. What about the situation now?

[Interpreted] Well, what we see is, and sometimes you do read about it in the media, such as about the [indiscernible] that market parties are more selective and that all parties are now looking at risk profile as -- in relation to the earning potential, which is a healthy thing. We had a period of 5 to 10 years ago, that was really, really difficult, and it seems like common sense is finally reemerging. And that does lead to complexity to the clients because you can well imagine, there's quite a bit of discussion we don't focus on volume. We focus on margin. We focus and manage on what we can do, and we dare to say no. This now is part of our DNA. Of course, there's always room for improvement. But that helps and reassures us. If you look at fluctuations in Infra in revenue, 3 years ago, 750. Now at 60, 61. So we don't focus on volume, on revenue. We want healthy margins for healthy projects. So we want to manage it well. That is our track. And I see others doing the same thing, which is a healthy thing to do in the industry. It makes the industry attractive for young people to want to study and to work in this industry. Because if you keep reading about all this doom and gloom in infrastructure, that won't encourage young people to start working or studying building. That's what I see, and I don't see major foreign parties while we see basics from Belgium, but that might be a healthy party in the Netherlands. I mean, they've been here for a while. And sometimes you see a foreign company. And sometimes also, well, operating in certain fields, let me put it this way. In [indiscernible] is very good in ground. In some contracts, you see that [indiscernible] is one of the competitors, which is fine, not a problem. So that's just about it. No further questions. Thank you. Thank you. Have a good weekend. [Portions of this transcript that are marked [Interpreted] were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]