Koninklijke Heijmans N.V. (HEIJM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the presentation of the 2024 half year figures for Koninklijke Heijmans. We ordinarily begin this presentation with a video about Fine Projects by Heijmans. But today, I'm going to show you a different aspect of construction in 3 minutes. A few years ago, [indiscernible] produced the dudes from construction, reflecting the rough realistic aspect of construction. And in that video Heijmans' pioneering construction should give [indiscernible] discretion about what was disclosed, and we'd like to assume this pioneering role again about the most essential part of construction that continues to request consideration daily. That's why I'm going to show you this video about safety. [Presentation] Ladies and gentlemen, I find this movie compelling every time I watch it. The good and the bad converge. I'm proud of Mano and Arie that they helped produce this video. They told their story and consequently contribute to making construction safer. We use this video internally and externally to encourage improvements in construction safety. Once again, 1 image reveals more than 1,000 words. For years, Heijmans has been doing its very best to make construction safer from conceiving to managing safely on the road and everywhere and considers all aspects of the building chain from client to contractor and suppliers. And Heijmans has taken many steps to ensure safe situations and has reported all accidents. Reporting incidents provides insight and helps make things safer for everybody. And leaders in safety teaches people to talk to each other and not to look the other way and to change the culture in construction. In recent months, I've delivered various lectures to emphasize the importance of making construction safer, even though we've made progress toward making construction safer. Despite all the initiatives, there are too many accidents in building and the tolerance of people working by the roadside has diminished, considering the safety figures at Heijmans gave and I cannot possibly be satisfied. In addition to keeping the tools and procedures in order, conduct and culture in the construction industry will have to go through major changes. We have to constantly talk to each other about this rather than looking the other way, and we also have to insist on working safely or not working. I'd also like to appeal to road users to understand that people have to work by the roadside to keep roadside quality good and road surfaces safe. Accept temporary nuisance, moderate your speed, follow instructions, and certainly never throw objects at our coworkers. It's unusual to open a presentation of the half year figures this way, but as Mano and Arie said, if this contribution helps prevent even 1 serious accident, it was worth it. They have the courage to teach us how to make construction safer. It's up to us and society to take up that initiative, as far as I'm concerned. Heijmans will support the current initiative for an endowed chair about integral safety at the Technical University. The objective is to highlight safety in construction, training and programs. In addition, we need to consider safety in the chain of devising, building and managing and using tools and other procedures that also address conduct and culture. Now, about Heijmans' financial performance, I have the courage to tell you that these are good, perhaps even above expectations. We're well on track with our long-term expectations as we described at the Capital Markets Day this year. Heijmans has grown in revenue, and there's a strong improvement in results for the first half of 2024, thanks in part to acquiring Van Wanrooij and organically in all segments of Residential, Working and Connecting performance is good. Revenue at Heijmans has increased by approximately 30% from EUR 937 million in H1 2023 to over EUR 1.2 billion over the same period of this year. Underlying EBITDA substantially improved in the first half of this year from EUR 49 million or 5.2% last year to EUR 91 million, equaling 7.5% in the first half of this year, thereby Heijmans' margin improved by 2.3%. Of course, the significant increase in underlying EBITDA also relates to the results of Van Wanrooij that have been added since September 2023, but organically Heijmans' results have improved as well. This also relates to our selective tender policy, careful management of risks and an excellent production machine throughout Heijmans that has significantly reduced the cost of failure and that's excellent work by all people within Heijmans and we're proud of this. Thanks to these good achievements, we see our net debt continuing to decline. The loan to finance the acquisition of Van Wanrooij equaling EUR 80 million. On that loan, we've accelerated repayment of EUR 35 million. Gavin will elaborate on this. And our order book has continued to grow to EUR 3 billion, which is EUR 400 million up with respect to H1 last year. And what gives us particular confidence is the improving underlying quality. We still accept large projects, provided that the ratio between risk acceptance and earning capacity is balanced. But we focus on acquiring recurring business in all sectors, project-based renovation and making homes more sustainable to managing and maintaining technical installations and long year management of our road network and traffic systems. Residential sales by Heijmans are up from 876 homes last year to 1,587 homes this year, of which 528 homes were sold by Van Wanrooij. This significant increase of over 700 sales of homes was largely to individuals. Of the 1,587 home sales, approximately 600 were sold B2B, roughly the equivalent of last year. We see that sales in the medium to high rental segment has shifted from institutional investors to housing construction associations. And because the landlord levy was abolished, corporations are now able to investigate -- to invest again. Now, regarding the residential market. Heijmans supports the view of the new government, as expressed in the general agreement in which the policy from previous years will continue. And it's wonderful that spatial planning and housing is back on the agenda and will receive priority in our country. In the years ahead, the general agreement will carry over to a governing program. As stated previously, Heijmans considers the following very important to consider: increased planning capacity both within and outside cities; increase the number of staff and civil servants in governments and authorities that plans -- that can draft and assess plans; keep spatial planning high on local political and official agendas; and accelerate and shorten the spatial planning procedures because increasingly, the Council of State takes longer to issue ruling, and because societies keep appealing because they don't want things in their backyard. Before I give the floor to Gavin, I'd like to make a few comments. First, the grid congestion is a growing problem. Completely ready homes cannot be issued because they cannot be connected to the energy network despite the shortage of homes. And we also see that some principals want to shift the problem of grid congestion to the builders. Heijmans will not accept this. We can't manage or influence this risk. Therefore, we cannot accept it. In fact, we can no longer guarantee to individual buyers when their home will be made available because of the utilities connections. And logically, this disappoints our buyers. Two more comments about events that are noteworthy. Last month, we announced the intended acquisition of Development and Construction Company Van Gisbergen from Hooge Mierde to highlight our confidence in the residential market. And as -- in addition, as a 50% shareholder in AsfaltNu, we've announced that Heijmans together with BAM and Theo Pouw Group will invest in the most sustainable, innovative and environmentally friendly asphalt center in Europe, which will be built in the years ahead at Lage Weide in Utrecht. And on behalf of Roger Mol, the HID for Sustainability and Chief Procurement Officer for the Department of Public Works, the Ministry of Infrastructure and Public Works & Water is very positive and believes that this will initiate support for sustainable and circular roads in 2030. Now, over to Gavin.

As mentioned, we will henceforth report our achievements based on 3 segments; Residential comprising Heijmans [indiscernible] and Van Wanrooij; Working, in technical projects and service activities, such as maintenance and management in hospitals and sites such as ASML. And finally, the Connections, connecting segment in which all water, roads and industrial and energy segments are reported. Starting with Residential. As Ton mentioned in his introduction, housing has experienced 6 months in which demand for new owner-occupied houses clearly picked up. In the first 6 months, home sales grew significantly to 1,587 homes, especially home sales to consumers i.e., B2C did very well. Within the business, i.e., B2B segment, we see a shift. Institutional investors are scaling back and housing construction associations are now investing more in the housing market again. Residential sales rose by over 47% to EUR 485 million. The first signs of market recovery on the housing market early in Q4 last year have continued and have clearly accelerated and strengthened. This is partly why Residential has performed so well with underlying EBITDA of EUR 20 million in the first half year and is written to EUR 41 million in the first 6 months of this year. An underlying EBITDA margin of 8.5% is unquestionably healthy and satisfactory. Residential's order book increased from EUR 860 million at the end of H1 2023 to EUR 1.1 billion at the end of H1 this year. One of the nice orders that Heijmans received recently was our partnership agreement signed in June with housing Construction Rochdale. And also in Amsterdam, Heijmans will be working on major redevelopments following earlier projects in The Hague Southwest and Rotterdam. In the New West of Amsterdam, we will redevelop the southern part of the Lodewijk van Deyssel neighborhood. Heijmans will develop and build around 590 homes, more than 400 social and medium-sized rental homes for Rochdale and 184 owner-occupied homes. In addition, we'll have low threshold facilities, including social facilities, climate adaptation and nature inclusiveness, which will improve quality of life and combat heat stress. At Van Wanrooij, the environmental permit for Project Buitenveen Aalsmeer has become definitive. And in the coming years, together with Eigen Haard and Roosdom Tijhuis, we will realize around 850 homes in the Amsterdam region. And in the years ahead, we expect a nice contribution from our intended acquisition of development and construction company Van Gisbergen as soon as the ACM issues approval. That is a sign that Heijmans is filled with confidence about the residential market, and we're anticipating the current and future supply needs in this acquisition as well as that of Van Wanrooij last year, the stock is well developed. Now Works; turnover at works rose from EUR 242 million to EUR 304 million. That's significant. We saw 1 quarter more turnover, certainly driven by our recurring business services, thanks in part to volume growth with existing clients, such as [indiscernible] and Rabobank. In the first half of 2024, a 6-year management and maintenance contract was signed with Royal FloraHolland. Heijmans provides technical maintenance and management of the 3 sites, buildings and technical installations in Aalsmeer, Rijnsburg and Naaldwijk. Altogether, the built up area measures 1.8 million square meters, and we have over 60 staff members that we've acquired from Royal FloraHolland. At the end of H1, we also completed the student campus at the Technical University of Eindhoven and despite the bankruptcy of the facade builder, we managed to complete this complex on time. Excellent performance and achievements by our people and those of [ Von betterave ] Eindhoven and will enable students to move in the summer before the start of the academic year, driven in part by higher volume, underlying EBITDA increase from EUR 14 million to EUR 22 million. Thanks to improved cover and good project results, the underlying EBITDA margin rose further to 7.2%. Customers want to make their offices and business premises more energy efficient and future proof. So, demand for renovation management and maintenance of buildings remains as high as ever and is expected to continue growing throughout this year and into next. The works order book increased from EUR 700 million -- from EUR 827 million in H1 2023 to EUR 885 million H1 this year. Because of its knowledge and skills, Heijmans is increasingly requested to participate in projects early on as a construction team partner. Given these one-to-one contacts, we expect the Works order book to grow significantly in the second half of 2024 and throughout 2025. Now, finally, connecting. One of the many new orders that Heijmans received in the first half of the year was a framework contract from [ Hos Oil ] to maintain and manage existing natural gas pipelines and build new pipelines for hydrogen, green gas and CO2. The contract, which involves 5 other parties in addition to Heijmans includes a maximum investment of EUR 4 billion distributed over 10 years. Heijmans is proud to address this type of integral challenge because we are committed to the future of the Netherlands. Previously, Heijmans concluded similar framework contracts with TenneT for high-voltage electricity and with Vitens for water. In the first half of the year, several major works projects were completed as well, such as the major maintenance on parts of the A12 motorway, which was completed on time and caused far less traffic nuisance than we feared. And in addition, the renovation of the Kaagbaan for Schiphol airport was completed on time. This was quite a feat, especially given the poor weather and ongoing rain in the first months of this year. Next, the financial results of Connecting. Revenue rose as expected from EUR 381 million to EUR 452 million, driven in part by higher volume. Underlying EBITDA rose from EUR 23 million to EUR 30 million, reflecting an underlying EBITDA margin of 6.6%. Connecting's order book increased slightly from EUR 1 billion at H1 2023 to just above EUR 1 billion after the first 6 months of this year. Now, the P&L statement. consolidated after I showed you, you won't be surprised that both revenue and underlying EBITDA grew in all segments. Revenue grew by 30%, with strong growth of underlying EBITDA equaling 85%. Underlying EBITDA margin consequently rose to 7.5%. Due to changes in how charges for Group costs are passed on, whereby a larger share of total group cost is charged to the segments from this year onwards. Reported Group costs fell to EUR 2 million. Last year, they were still at EUR 8 million, although this amount was also driven in part by non-recurring costs for [ a century ] of Heijmans and the contribution granted twice to colleagues with lower incomes to offset increased energy cost totaling EUR 3 million. Operating profit rose to EUR 48 million, reflecting a margin of 3.9%. In 2023, this margin had been 2.5%. Within the Zuidplaspolder area development Heijmans applied an impairment of EUR 4 million. The [indiscernible] District Water Board is appealing to the Council of State against the Zuidplas municipality's zoning plan for the Zuidplaspolder. As government versus government litigation begins, we have provided for part of the book value of our land to err on the side of caution, the post retention bonus is concerned, the EUR 3.5 million in retention bonuses following the Van Wanrooij acquisition, which will be paid to employees in September. Please note that the Van Wanrooij family has also stepped down from day-to-day manage, as planned at the end of June. They will remain available behind the scenes to the new management for support and to answer any questions needed. We are fully confident in the current organization and new management, which comprises various people with many years of experience at Van Wanrooij and Heijmans. Depreciation and write-offs increased to EUR 28 million where they've been EUR 20 million last year. This item includes EUR 3 million amortization of Van Wanrooij's order book. In addition, the increase in depreciation reflects the substantial investments in electric equipment, expansion of the electric vehicle fleet and further industrialization, especially at the timber frame housing factory in Heerenveen. This aligns with the strategic course of electrifying equipment further and industrializing our production. Resulting joint ventures increased from EUR 2 million to EUR 5 million, due in part to the result of the associates of Van Wanrooij, which were not included in H1 2023. Financial income and expenses amounted to EUR 3 million, concerning mainly the interest expense for the takeover facility for the acquisition of Van Wanrooij Now, net profit more than doubled from EUR 18 million in H1 2023 to EUR 37 million in the first 6 months of this year. I just told you about our excellent operating results. These have enabled us to improve our net debt position. That net debt position equaled BRL 92 million on 30 June, putting Heijmans well ahead of schedule to achieve a net positive cash position. We now expect to reach this point in early 2025 rather than in 2026, which was our previous guidance. So, we're considerably ahead of schedule. The net debt position includes a dividend payment of EUR 0.89 per share on the 2023 result, which resulted in a cash dividend payment of EUR 11 million in May. Thanks to strong financial performance in the first 6 months, we have also managed to pay EUR 35 million of our term load ahead of schedule, leaving EUR 30 million of the original EUR 80 million outstanding at the end of H1. Total capital expenditure aligned with amortization and depreciation, working capital remained similar to year-end of the previous year. Within working capital, there was an increase in prefinancing, i.e., increasing work-in-progress credit position, resulting from an increase in Working and Connecting. The number of homes completed but unsold is very limited. In fact, in the current housing market, homes unsold under construction are selling faster, which also benefited cash in the first 6 months. These 2 aspects have enabled us to accommodate the traditional seasonal pattern in working capital, i.e., higher working capital requirement during the past year. Now, about sustainability. One thing is clear to us, Heijmans does not want to merely observe and wait and see. We feel in part, responsible for the future of the Netherlands, and as a consequence, we embrace the complexity of the challenges that the Netherlands faces. That's why we're moving forward and aim to be a sustainable leader. What have we achieved in sustainability in the first 6 months of this year? During this period, our CO2 Scope 1 and 2 emissions were again reduced by 10% with respect to H1 2023, putting us on track to achieve our CO2 reduction targets for this year. How are we doing that? For example, when we place asphalt. We now use roughly 50% recycled asphalt on average, and up to 70% on larger projects using electric equipment. Heijmans now has what's known as an asphalt train from asphalt transport to asphalt spreader to roller, all electric, making the asphalt chain more sustainable, also includes construction of the most sustainable, innovative and environmentally friendly asphalt plant at Utrecht. That's the most sustainable asphalt plant in Europe. Another example is the experimentation with hollow concrete piles because we know that producing concrete emits a lot of CO2. We've also reached agreements with other parties in the sector to encourage concrete producers to try harder to reduce their CO2 emissions. Heijmans is the first in the sector to launch a waste monitor to report and monitor waste streams, separation percentages and CO2 emissions associated with them down to the project level. And finally, a topic that is not very enticing, but is very important, the EU Corporate Sustainability Reporting directive, also known as CSRD. This European directive requires large organizations and companies to report from 2024 on their impact on people and the environment. By doing so, the European Union wants to achieve greater transparency and better quality of sustainability information. To this end, early this year, we performed what's known as a dual materiality analysis. Heijmans is working hard to be able to report, in keeping with CSRD, by the end of this year, including all relevant indicators. That's a hell of a job, not only for us, but for corporate industry as a whole. But the cause is good; a cleaner, more sustainable Europe where corporate sustainability is more quantifiable and more comparable. And now I'll hand you back to Ton for the outlook.

Thank you, Gavin. Based on our strong H1 results, Heijmans is changing its outlook for 2024 revenue toward -- of approximately EUR 2.5 billion will remain for 2024, but underlying EBITDA margin for this year has been increased from at least 6.5% to margin of approximately 7.5%. When we issued this outlook early this year, the residential market was just starting to recover that this incipient recovery would continue so quickly and so robustly throughout 2024 took us by surprise. Estate agents are now even referring to an overheated residential market. In addition, we see that our performance in Working, Connecting continue to develop well, and that gives us confidence for the future. And parallel to our margin growth, we also see that our cash position continues to improve. We now expect that by early 2025, we will have a net cash position. Again, our previous expectation had been to have a net cash position in 2026. With a growing order book heading towards EUR 3 billion and improving quality in our order book, we're well on track to achieve the revenue target as announced at our Capital Day. The same holds true for the underlying EBITDA margin, which in 2027 is anticipated to range between 7% and 9%, and a margin potential of approximately 7.5% for 2024 matches all of this beautifully. And the course we charted several years ago is bearing fruit. Heijmans is once again robust in the construction industry and focused on the future. Gavin and I are very proud of these achievements, which we have realized thanks to our principles, customers and all our employees. This strong financial base gives us confidence in the future; a future in which we will continue our strategic agenda based on the 5 pillars; well-being, sustainability, connecting, feasibility and team. And we will continue to roll this out. Together, we head toward 2030. Thank you very much for listening. I'll take questions now. And I'd like to ask everybody to speak clearly into the microphone so that everybody can hear you properly.

Of course. I'm Martijn den Drijver from the ABN AMRO. And since there are only 3 of you, I've got a long list of questions. Considering Residential sales, they're looking very good. The market is picking up, and the estate agents are referring to an overheated housing market. Can you provide any guidance concerning housing sales for 2024?

Well, that's quite complex because we've already said that this spatial planning procedures and also the assessment of plans by the government are under pressure. We've seen that many plans take a long time to progress. But if you look at the current number, we expect to double this range. So, 3,000 might be a very logical number, assuming that we can manage all the procedures.

That's excellent. And you already mentioned the grid congestion problem. Looking beyond 2024, will this turn into a problem for achieving these numbers annually from 2025?

Well, that's difficult to say. Our point is that in some tenders, we were asked whether we would assume the risk of connecting their network, and we don't think that's appropriate because we cannot influence that. And it's very easy to simply say, we'll add an ISO generator and then you can connect the home. But we want homes to be sustainable and connected to the grid network. And for several months, we've been noticing this question. That's why we're making this point here. It's not large scale, but we do need to pay attention to it.

I understand that you don't want to divest Van Wanrooij, but I'll try to ask anyway. The first, is the performance in the first half year of 2024 by Van Wanrooij equal to its performance in 2023?

Yes. Just to put your question in context, we will be reporting from this year in Residential, Connecting and Working to give you -- and Heijmans organically has grown about 10% in revenue and underlying EBITDA with a rising underlying EBITDA, and the rest comes from Van Wanrooij, that should give you an impression.

Now, I know that you've described the revenue of Van Gisbergen and also the net profit. Is it logical to assume that Van Gisbergen is somewhere in between Heijmans and Van Wanrooij? Can you give me an indication of what to expect with Van Gisbergen?

Just roughly in between.

Yes, we're roughly in between.

That's clear. Okay, now about Connecting. Strong growth and you expect additional growth. It's clear which projects are in the pipeline. That's how I read it. I'm looking at Ton. Can you substantiate all this? Is your capacity sufficient both in terms of property, plant and equipment, and in terms of staffing?

Well, in terms of property, plant and equipment, we're electrifying everything. So, that's ongoing. But staffing, we need to watch that carefully. So, that doesn't mean unbridled growth in connecting. We achieved EUR 70 million in growth in H1. And we won't be able to continue growing at that same pace because first, we'll have to embed everything and then we'll take the next step. So we're cautious about that. If you look at Working, then, I do see some larger projects in the next year where we staff them well and then we can take that to the next level. And you also see that Connecting retain -- the order book has been at around EUR 1 billion for about a year. So the growth in revenue we're now achieving is based on the order book from the past. It doesn't have to grow very much to meet the challenge that you mentioned.

I understand. Now about the working capital. You just explained why that was beneficial to cash flow. Do you see this as non-recurring, or is it because the residential market is developing as it is? Will this in fact, be recurring?

I think a bit of both. About half of our working capital is simply because we're achieving more revenue and prefinancing and the other half is because the residential market is accelerating, and that is why homes under construction have already been kind of sold -- have already been sold. Well, when the residential market was not doing so well last year, it took longer to sell homes under construction, but we've caught up with that since late October. I don't expect to catch up in the same measure again. So in that sense, it's non-recurring.

Next, your point about cash flow and the net cash position. Ordinarily, it's seasonal, which means that H2 is better than H1. Aside from the retention bonus payment in September, that is. So basically, that means that you'll have more latitude 1 year earlier. Will you consider more acquisitions? For example, in facility management and technical systems that are already being consolidated? And if not, if you have that cash balance position much earlier, you might want to do some share buybacks.

Well, last year, we didn't think immediately about share buybacks. Also, if you consider the number of shares outstanding. One factor was important because, our net cash position came earlier. We also had the opportunity earlier to think of additional steps, considering not only real estate, we also think about options in Connecting and Working in which we'll be very careful so that we ensure that risk acceptance and earnings capacity are in equilibrium. We don't just do anything. We need to act intelligently and then we're receptive to that. So, a share buyback, we're not entirely averse to that, but we're not doing it right now.

I have a few more questions, but I'll hand over to the next person.

It is regarding H2. So you've seen growth across all divisions, also quite impressive growth. What can we expect from the second half, because you didn't raise the revenue guidance. So is it fair to assume that there will be growth, but not as impressive as in H1?

If you look at Heijmans and we've been active there for years, we always say margin over volume is not only about volume growth. Yes, you do achieve a 30% volume growth, but the margin has increased by 85%. We won't repeat that every year, let's be clear about that. But that is our focus as a company, which means we're very selective. I just mentioned something about our selective tender policy and risk management and that we now have an implementation organization with many people working for us who are well equipped, and that is extremely important, and that's the chart we've taken. So is EUR 2.5 billion in sight? Yes, I believe so. So that would be doubling that. But we're focusing mainly on the margin development, which we consider to be far more important.

[ Allocation ] strategy that Martijn already touched upon. So, you will have more cash. You probably won't consider share buybacks. What about increasing dividend payout then?

Shall I start answering that, and then you can follow up? Of course, at the Capital Markets Day, we had a policy of saying 40% dividend, and it would also be an optional dividend. At the Capital Markets Day, we provided clear guidance by saying we're going to switch from an optional dividend to a cash dividend, and we increased the payout from 40% to 50%. And I think that's a nice position. Now, do you have anything to add?

No, that sums it up nicely [ Tim ]. We've taken that step. Now we're on track for mergers and acquisitions, no share buybacks. At this point, we're going to see what the legislation regulations will be and the fact that we have net cash does not mean that, that's an intrinsic objective. At the end of the day, you want a bit more than simply 0 on the balance sheet. So there's no problem for the cash position from switch to neutral to positive. Combined with mergers and acquisitions, I believe that would be a good cash -- capital allocation after rather dividend.

[indiscernible] with the acquisitions. So you already answered one of my questions that you're also looking outside of Residential. You just mentioned that, especially in Connecting, you see that staffing is a limiting factor there. So does that mean that could be a priority field where you would look for M&A or is it just pure, yes, wherever comes a good opportunity, you go for it? Pure opportunism.

Clearly, we've taken various steps on the residential market with our portfolio. Let me leave it at that. It's not strange that in Working and Connecting, we might also consider acquisitions. But we still have to discuss the field within the Board. But [ Tim ], we're not simply resting on our laurels to wait till something knocks on our door. So we do have a clear strategy of what we're looking for and how we'd like to invest. Thank you.

Now, about Connecting, the Department of Public Works is gradually starting to work with 2-stage contracts, and basically maintenance contracts for bridges and flyovers are being clustered and that trend, when do you expect for that to carry over to the margins? Because it should yield a lower margin and improved risk for builders and improved implement -- a more effective implementation for the Department of Public Works.

So when should we expect the improvements to carry over to the financial results? Well, we're not there yet. We're still at the beginning of these contracts, although I believe that the 6.5% margin shows good development. What matters is that we curtail risk. I believe that, that risk profile is far more important than simply increasing margin. I believe that minimizing that risk will improve things and it will reduce costs for the Department of Public Works and ultimately benefit our margin. but that will take another year or 2.

Now back to your statement about the renovation that it's already at a considerable pace and will probably accelerate further. Can you explain which renovation do you mean, Residential or an infrastructure?

Residential, that's where I mean it. I should have been clearer. And I assume, but that I'm not certain that it's mainly driven by housing construction associations.

What do you see on that market overall?

If you look at renovating homes to be more sustainable, we do those projects, and we renovate 200 to 300 homes. The demand is mainly from housing construction associations. There are some private investors, but most of them are with the housing associations. And at a certain point, you see that some institutional investors are renovating and move on to a different portfolio. That's what I see and making individual homes more sustainable, that's minimal. And that's not our sphere, because it's one home after another. We don't really worry about individual homes. As for making 200 or 300 homes more sustainable at a time, if I understand this, does it mainly involve insulation and making them solar efficient? Or are there also heat pumps, sometimes the plumbing with water-efficient faucets. There might also be a floor insulation. So then you're transforming them integrally. And sometimes people move out of their home for a week or 2 and then they come back. [ Martijn ] we're really thinking about drastic innovation, we're not talking about mere shades. We're talking about massive renovation.

So, would that always include a heat pump?

Sometimes it would, sometimes it wouldn't, but it's not a general trend. We're also installing awnings.

And my final question for now. Your group expenses, they were EUR 12 million last year, including EUR 3 million of incidentals, yielding EUR 9 million. Now I see you've guided at EUR 2 million. So you've allocated EUR 1.5 million more to the division. So those excellent margins have improved like-for-like.

Yes, that's correct.

Those were my questions.

We expect to stabilize at the end of the year, and we'll also take a look at CSRD costs, because we can't yet anticipate what the CSRD costs will be.

Nicely put.

Do you have a question?

I'm [ Tom ] from ABN AMRO. have a question about your timber frame production in Heerenveen. Recently, you announced that, and you have very ambitious targets and you want to scale that up to 200 homes soon. And the longer-term output is expected to be 1,000 homes. Can you provide some guidance in terms of your current output level?

Well, yes, now we're heading to about 200 for this year. We're a bit below that, but that's about the order of magnitude. At this point, we're mainly trying to ensure that the homes manufactured there, we're trying to learn to automate things. We have 80 identical homes for an association in Eindhoven, and we've arranged to schedule this now. We're catering to consumers and you see consumer-specific questions, for example, where do you want the power outlets, where do you want the extension. We're going to provide detail there and we hope to complete that by the end of this year so that we can make major progress later on. And the main challenge that we've faced was that a factory works not simply based on a global output, but on daily outputs. So we need predictability and we're facing the challenge that the permits, the permits need to be properly arranged. So we need a buffer in case something is deleted that something else replaces it. So, ultimately, we want to manufacture the 1 million homes that the government wants by 2030. But the predictability of spatial planning procedures also needs to be on track so that we can plan what those factories do. Not only we need to do that, but all factory operators need that. So, we also need civil servants to draft and assess the plans so that the spatial planning is on track because if something is put off 1 or 2 months, it looks like it's just a month or 2, but the factory still has to work on schedule, and we're concerned about that, and we're telling the government in the Hague that we need more predictability.

Thank you very much.

That was it?

I think so.

CEO: Thank you very much for listening. And I'd also like to thank everybody who listened in on the webcast and see you back again in 3 months. Thank you. [Statements in English on this transcript were spoken by an interpreter present on the live call.]