Koninklijke Heijmans N.V. (HEIJM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Dear ladies and gentlemen, welcome. You're watching and listening to the presentation of the annual results of Royal Heijmans. Before I pass the word to our CEO and CFO, I would like to bring over some procedural things. People are listening to the audio webcast. For them, there is no possibility to ask questions. For the people who are present here in Amsterdam, there is a possibility to ask questions. I would like to ask you a favor. Please state your name and the company you are representing if you want to ask a question. I'm sure the people who are listening to the audio webcast will appreciate that one. Mr. Ton Hillen, the floor is yours.

Thank you, Martijn. Dear ladies and gentlemen, a warm welcome to the presentation of the 2024 annual results of Royal Heijmans. This is the first time we do the presentation of the Heijmans annual results as management in English. In other words, without a translator, which honestly is a bit challenging for me, and I hope you understand. But before we start with the performance of Heijmans over the year 2024, let's first look at the highlights of last year, and we will start the presentation with a short film. [Presentation]

Today, I want to begin by sharing our results in the field of safety. Safety is not just priority, it's the founding of everything we do and important in the construction sector. The total number of accidents has remained at the same level with 72 incidents. That's, of course, still too high. But despite the absolute figure, we do see positive developments. The reports of safe and unsafe situations is increasing, which means that overall awareness in the organization regarding safety is improving. The number of accidents resulting in absenteeism from work has remained the same despite increasing turnover. Also the seriousness of the accident decreased and IF figure fell from 3.1 to 2.3 last year. In addition to our own safety awareness, Heijmans has a clear voice in the sector about safety, which is, in my opinion, positive and shows our willingness to lead the way. We strive to set new and better standards and draw more attention to safe working in the sector. And I'm pleased that this call in the sector is being answered more and more. A good example of this was the discontinuation of the weekend closure on the N13. It was not safe to start working. So in consultation with our clients, Ministry of Transport and Waterways, we decided to delay the weekend work. That we were not well prepared, of course, was not good on our part. But I was proud of our people for recognizing that it was not safe to work, reporting this, and acting. At Heijmans, we always say we either work safely or we don't work. You saw many highlights and beautiful projects. But in addition of these highlights, for us as Board of Directors, 3 other events stand out. Firstly, winning the Sijthoff prize for the best annual report over 2023 for listed small-cap funds. Secondly, the Audience Award in the ABN AMRO Sustainability 50 election. And lastly, the fact that the Heijmans' share price experienced a growth of 160% over 2024, the highest of the Amsterdam listed shares, is quite special and is a great market recognition for our strategic and solid finance performance. Now let's zoom in on the financial performance. We look back on the strong performance last year. We performed well on all fronts with our business activities and all businesses divisions; Living, Working, and Connecting have grown in the terms of turnover. The margin of each of them is within the strategic bandwidth of 7% to 9% underlying EBITDA. And that is a great achievement and complement to all our employees, something to be really proud of. The turnover grew by more than 22% to almost EUR 2.6 billion, which is partly due to full year effect of the acquisition of Van Wanrooij. And over the whole of 2024, Heijmans achieved an underlying EBITDA of EUR 199 million, which is a margin of 7.7%. We consider this a strong performance and this is founded on our philosophy that has underpinned our business over the last years, do what we can, dare to say no, margin above volume, and the balance between risk acceptance and earning capacity. This spirit and entrepreneurship is the basis for how Heijmans works and how we can deliver these performances sustainably and is what Heijmans makes more and more robust and predictable. The order book is EUR 2.8 billion, at the same level as last year, although this does not show the growth in framework contracts as a result of strengthening recurring business. In addition, the quality of the order book continues to develop positively and underpins our margin improvement. The strong performance led to a net result of EUR 90 million and growth of 50% compared to last year and results in a dividend proposal of EUR 1.64 per share. We foresee a turnover for 2025 in the direction of EUR 2.75 billion with an underlying EBITDA of at least 8%. So now the nonfinancial performances. In our revised strategy, sustainability is one of our main pillars. In our property development, we focus on nature inclusive and climate adaptive residential areas and projects, and it is good to see that more and more parties support our initiative. To reduce our footprint, we aim to emit zero emissions for the Scope 1 and 2 by 2030. In 2025 -- sorry, in 2024, we reduced our footprint for the Scope 1 and 2 with 30%, driven by using zero-emission equipment and using biofuels on our projects. We are really making progress in Scope 1 and 2, but the challenge is Scope 3. Although here, too, we have concrete actions and initiatives in place with our suppliers to reduce it. That being said, a lot more still needs to be done in order to reduce it further. The number of colleagues continued to grow further at last year, sorry. Yes, of course, we can always use good new employees to cope with the increasing demand of work. And in this respect, it is good to see that we are able to attract and retain them. Given the labor shortage, it's important for a construction company like Heijmans to track and retain high-quality labor. Heijmans has been focused on the employment of refugees for several years and has now employed 60 newcomers. We intend to employ more newcomers. This cuts both ways. Heijmans gets highly motivated new employees and the newcomers can build a new life. We launched a new labor market campaign at the end of last year that's in line with our revised strategy and brand promise. We often hear from new colleagues that the content of our purpose, the creators of the healthy living environment, appeals. And the fact that Heijmans culturally combines the commercial nature of a listed company with its roots of a family business is seen as valuable. Last year, we had a turnover of about EUR 300 million related to the energy transition with projects for utility companies and customers like TenneT and Gasunie. We are constructing new transport pipelines, energy grids, and power stations. And for the coming years, we expect a strong growth in energy transition market with the prospects of hundreds of millions of work coming our way. Here, we often have long-term framework contracts in preparation or engineering phases. The energy transition is a growth market. And as Heijmans, we are well positioned given our broad presence and the interdisciplinary teams. Then let's look at the housing market. We saw a growth in our home sales like-for-like from about 2,600 in 2023 to last year 3,200 homes, a growth of about 600 homes sold, a plus of 23%. The housing shortage in the Netherlands remains significant for the coming years with a need of more than 1 million homes for the next 10 years. And today, there's already a shortage of 400,000 homes. So there is plenty of demand. Nonetheless, in 2024, only 70,000 houses were added. This delay of production of new homes was and is due to the shortage of hard planning capacity, delaying effects on permit granting and due to nitrogen situation in the Netherlands. The Council of State has ruled that internal netting of emissions is not permitted. It will have little impact on our projects that already have permits and are underway in construction. However, for new projects, it seems that we have to apply for an environmental permit, which may cause a further delay. But for 2025, we foresee limited to no impact of this ruling on the Heijmans' results. The political statement, the new housing projects and residential areas should consist of at least 2/3 of affordable housing, seems to me personally an overambition and unwise. Let's learn from the past and prevent creating new deprived areas such as the neighborhoods of the '60s. Building a mix of types of homes in all price ranges ensures that an integral and livable composition of residential areas is maintained. Clarity about the sources of funds, how this [indiscernible] for the housing should be funded is yet to be determined, but may lead to new endless discussions, and there is no time for that, especially in view of the ruling of the Council of State on nitrogen. So my strong advice is to build all the houses we can, build in all segments; social, middle, and upper segment. This will lead to a relocation carousel in the existing housing market. And now I want to like to give the floor to Gavin van Boekel, who will provide further explanation about the financial figures and divisional performances.

Thank you, Ton. It's my pleasure to present our financial performance for '24 in more detail. We can look back on a satisfactory year. All business divisions have shown profitable revenue growth and are already performing within the 7% to 9% underlying EBITDA bandwidth that we have set as a target for '27 during last year's Capital Market Day. Our projects are in control. They are predictable, and we have no major project losses. Our part of recurring business also continues to grow. This has enabled us to fully repay the acquisition financing for Van Wanrooij ahead of schedule and land at a net debt position at year-end of EUR 10 million. At group level, revenue increased by EUR 450 million to EUR 2.6 billion. All business divisions contributed to this growth. And as you all know, revenue growth is not a goal in itself for Heijmans. We aim for profitable growth, margin over volume. The revenue of the 3 business divisions; Living, Working, and Connecting is nicely balanced, which has a risk-reducing effect. It makes the Heijmans business model quite resilient to macroeconomic fluctuations. Additionally, we expect Working to grow significantly in the upcoming years. Underlying EBITDA increased to EUR 199 million for '24, which is EUR 52 million ahead of '23. The underlying EBITDA margin, which rose to 7.7%, shows that we have succeeded in achieving profitable growth. Net profit is 50% higher than the previous year, amounting to EUR 90 million. Finally, the order book remained stable at EUR 2.8 billion. Of this EUR 2.8 billion, EUR 1.6 billion relates to fiscal '25. The remaining EUR 1.2 billion will be executed in the years thereafter. The quality of the order book is improving, which is gratifying. I would like to highlight our prudent reporting method using the order book as an example. We only include projects into our order book that we are highly certain will be executed. Criteria for this include a minimum sales percentage for our housing projects, a high degree of certainty on the necessary permits being granted and that the start of construction is a given. Increasingly, we are seeing framework contracts being part of our backlog. Here, we only include the actually awarded tangible subprojects under these framework contracts in our order book, not the whole framework contract. The consistent and increasing free cash flow generated in the years leading up to '22 was utilized in '23 for the acquisition of Van Wanrooij. The financing for this acquisition was fully repaid by the end of '24. Over the past 4 years, Heijmans has pursued a strong and consistent dividend payout. During the upcoming AGM in April, we will put our new dividend policy on the agenda, aiming for 50% payout of net profit fully payable in cash. This translates, as Ton mentioned, to a dividend proposal of EUR 1.64 for '24, representing an increase of over 80% compared to '23, which is in line with our capital allocation strategy as announced during our Capital Markets Day on May 22 last year. The return on capital employed has remained at a sound level of 90% despite a significant investment in the acquisition of Van Wanrooij in '23 and its substantial land bank. The past 5 years have demonstrated our ability to maintain a consistent and solid performance. Solvency increased further to 34% in '24. Though perhaps even more importantly, our solvency has been consistently around 30% for the past 5 years, demonstrating our resilience and ability to withstand challenges. On the 3 photos of Living, you can see from left to right, facade elements of our Horizon timber frame houses from the factory in Heerenveen; an overview photo of the student housing project for the Technical University in Eindhoven, which we completed last year; and finally, our project in the Walkwartier in Oss. Living benefited from the improved conditions in the housing market. Home sales increased by 23% to a total of 3,181. Particularly sales to consumers picked up with an increase of almost 450 homes. In B2B, we saw a further shift from institutional investors to housing corporations. Revenue rose from EUR 820 million to EUR 994 million. Underlying EBITDA increased to EUR 89 million with an underlying EBITDA margin of 8.9%. Our timber frame house factory in Heerenveen has produced over 150 homes last year. The order book decreased, which has all to do with permitting. As we indicated in the Q3 trading update last year, Heijmans could increase its production of homes over the upcoming years with about 4,000, which are currently waiting for their objection or appeal procedures to be processed by judicial body such as a court or the Council of State. That being said, we do see the number of permits being granted increasing over the last month. In addition, the number of homes Heijmans could develop increased significantly. When we acquired Van Wanrooij in June '23, we indicated that we had a joint housing pool to be developed of 29,000 homes. Perhaps even more importantly, the acquisition rebalanced our housing pool to 60% suburban and 40% urban. By the end of '24, we had a housing pool of 37,000 homes, an increase of 8,000, partly due to the acquisition of Van Gisbergen. Through the housing pool of both Heijmans and Van Wanrooij also each significantly increased. We have managed to maintain the 60-40 balance, suburban versus urban. On the 3 photos of Working, on the left, a photo of the large-scale renovation of the Binnenhof, the Dutch central government location. In the middle, a photo of electrical work by our technical service technicians. And on the right, a photo of maintenance work at our customer, ASML. Working had a 90% increase in revenue in '24, which was evident in both technical services and projects. Our recurring business continued to grow steadily with favorable market conditions. The share of projects that are awarded to Heijmans based on a one-on-one relationship with the customer also increased. Total revenue for Working amounted to EUR 635 million, and here too, growth was profitable. The underlying EBITDA margin increased by 80 basis points compared to '23, reaching 7.4%. The order book increased as expected by over 15% to EUR 923 million, providing a positive outlook for '25 and '26. For example, last Monday, we announced a contract for a large 10-megawatt data center worth EUR 96 million. Finally, 3 photos of Connecting. On the left, an impression of our work related to traffic control centers, where Heijmans plays an important role in audio and video management as a national partner of our Ministry of Road and Waterways. In the middle, a photo of a project under the EU-303 framework contract for high-voltage substations for TenneT, our national high-voltage grid provider, where Heijmans is one of the executing partners for the next 11 years. On the right, a photo of the dike reinforcement at Lauwersmeerdijk as part of the National High Water Protection Program. Revenue at Connecting increased significantly to a level of EUR 997 million. We see our project portfolio within Connecting diversifying further. In addition to the more traditional work on roads, bridges, and viaducts, revenues in the energy, water, and asset management market segments are increasing substantially. The share of energy-related activities within Connecting has now risen to about 20% of the total. The proportion of large new road construction projects has clearly decreased in recent years on the back of the nitrogen question. So this has been more than recouped by projects in the replacement and renovation segment. Water is becoming an increasingly important theme. Hence, we based our comprehensive vision on water on 4 pillars: Water quality, water balance, water usage, and water safety. Like the example of Lauwersmeerdijk in the picture on the previous slide, the exposure connecting Heijmans to high water protection programs is vastly increasing. Equally, we keep on innovating like with the water basin realized last year in Rotterdam Hart van Zuid, which combines sustainability and livability and strengthens the city's climate resilience, a clear example of reduction in water usage. As you might recall, the '23 underlying EBITDA of Connecting was positively impacted by the release of a provision. The profitability of Connecting adjusted for the release of the Wintrack II provision increased from EUR 53 million to EUR 70 million in '24. The like-for-like underlying EBITDA margin increased by 50 basis points, reaching 7.1%, which is within the strategic bandwidth set for '27. The order book for Connecting is well filled at around EUR 1 billion. And now I would like to hand the floor back to Ton for the outlook for '25.

Thank you, Gavin. Despite the fact that macroeconomic uncertainty appears to be increasing, the prospects for Heijmans remain favorable with a well-spread and well-filled order book. So we foresee a turnover for 2025 in the direction of EUR 2.75 billion with an underlying EBITDA of at least 8%. The high quality of our order book gives us the confidence that we can achieve this. We have also seen the share of recurring business continue to grow, and we expect this trend to continue in the future. The continued increase in demand of the housing market makes us optimistic. With this recent ruling of the Council of State regarding nitrogen, housing shortage will likely increase further. Personally, I expect that one way or the other, new regulations will come regarding nitrogen, and therefore, we foresee limited impact in the long run. And an increasing demand is emerging in the division Connecting related to a lot of work in replacing and renovating post-war infrastructure, especially the energy transition and the high water protection program, the main point is to be selective in tendering. Also in Working, we see over the coming years a growth in the portfolio of construction of larger projects, but only on the basis of one-on-one relationship with clients with the right risk/reward balance. And as earlier explained, we also see a continued growth in renovating and maintenance work in buildings and as a result in the growth of recurring business. To conclude, we are convinced there is sufficient work in the construction industry. The trick is to remain selective when acquiring projects. We do not focus on volume growth, but on margin improvement and the right risk reward profile. We have adhered to this philosophy as a cornerstone of our entrepreneurship over the past years, and it is what underpins our value creation. At the same time, we continue to drive and accelerate our strategic agenda with the focus on our future proof workforce, be using generative design, we are able to work smarter, not harder. Therefore, we are taking steps to further digitize and automate our work and operations, and we continue to strive for a better world and happier end users. It can be done together. Thank you very much.

Then it's time for the questions. I would say, ladies first. So I'll hand over the microphone over here.

Well, what's to say about it is excellent numbers, I would say. Leontien de Waal from ABN AMRO Bank. First of all, maybe let's not focus on the financials, but on the other numbers or acquisition you have done. For example, on CSRD, what's your experience in that and how did you manage because this is the first time we look at the new annual report in a week or so? And what can we expect?

I'll first take and let's have a look. First of all, I think it is good. There's one language of sustainability in the society. And it is a pity that the government is not reporting on the same numbers or the same figures we have. So because I think it is very important that we have one language in the whole sector. And on the other way, I think what we are reporting, I see how many pages that are, 120 or something and how many detail it has and what that cost, that's worrying me a little bit, let I say that. Gavin?

Yes. So I think we subscribe to the overall direction. I think CSRD started to be implemented, A, against greenwashing; and B, against lack of visibility on the progress in companies. So the direction, I think, is clear. There are a couple of things we struggle with. One Ton mentioned about the language. So when we talk to either customers or suppliers, they don't know about CSRD, and that makes information quite difficult to obtain. Secondly, what we face is that we have all kinds of different bodies, whether you talk EU taxonomy, CSRD, or GRI, who all have slightly different definitions, which kind of means that the work on our side is multiplying. And I think CSRD is going 3 spades too deep into the ground with way too much detail. So I think direction is okay. I get a bit of the feeling when I was in my previous work implementing Sarbanes-Oxley, which also went overboard in year 1 and in the end we got it right. I sincerely hope it's the same for CSRD in all fairness, but we need to find a better balance. If I look at Heijmans for the last year, and you can read it in the press release, we spent over EUR 2.5 million to get CSRD reporting on the road, and it has simply caused us to focus much more on reporting about sustainability than actually becoming more sustainable, and that troubles me.

So you stay strong on making impact, but you warmly welcome simplification measures, which might be announced there?

Wholeheartedly, yes.

ING, Tijs Hollestelle. Indeed, excellent results, I must say. Still a few questions. Yes, the first one is on your comments on the, let's say, the increase in the number of houses in the land bank. I can also see that, I think, in the balance sheet where the value improved quite materially. But yes, I cannot really see the cash impact. I mean the acquisition of Van Gisbergen, I also understand, but it was relatively small. There's also, let's say, you sold also 3,000 houses, probably not all on land plots, but also on building rights. So what is, let's say, the cash flow profile of the increase? Or did something else happen? Can you elaborate a little bit on that?

So I think there are 2 things. So A, we have invested significantly more over the last 1.5 years in land bank. You might not fully see that from the balance sheet. As you might recall, when we acquired Van Wanrooij, there was a fair value step-up in the land bank to bring it to market price. That is floating out of the balance sheet at quite a rapid level given the current homes sold. But that's masking a bit the underlying trend. Secondly, also in today's environment, but we have been doing that for a long time, when we buy land plots, we try to keep optionality to the max. So although we have the agreement in place, we try to put the cash impact of it as much forward as we can, closer to permitting or even if possible, homes actually being sold to the consumer. That means that the cash impact will be more towards the future. I think also what you see from the balance sheet, especially off-balance sheet tax is increasing significantly. And there, I think we, as Heijmans, have the optionality to either move in that direction or if the world moved differently, to bail out. That optionality for us is highly valuable in that 37,000.

Yes, and I will see those numbers in the annual report, I guess.

Which numbers?

Now the off-balance sheet commitments to rebuild...

You'll see it in the press release.

It's in the press release? Sorry, I missed it. Okay. But that's clear then.

It's on page -- I'll help you. It's on page -- let me see my heart. It's on 12.

It's 12. Now I'll have a look at that later.

You can go for a second round.

And then I had a question about what was, yes, the wooden home factory. You mentioned 150 houses. How is the profitability going? And what are your, let's say, your budgets for this year, next year? Ballpark numbers would be quite helpful.

So this year, we're aiming north of 200 homes. From a budget point of view, for us, this is still a startup. We are learning on the go. We are investing in it. What we're trying to do is especially make sure that we have a solid foundation for the future. So we are over-resourcing in people, in process in making sure it works to actually then scale up. So we are not negative about 150. It's currently loss-making in all fairness. But we want to have that position in place to actually accelerate when it's working towards the future. And then to put it in perspective, it's a couple of million.

And around breakeven level of the factory?

250.

250. Okay.

Homes.

And final question. Yes, on the debt position, which is basically now all leases. With your 2025 guidance and assuming, let's say, normal cash conversion, taking also into account that you're going to pay the dividend in May, you're going to generate about EUR 50 million of excess cash. And as Heijmans' EBITDA increased quite significantly in the last 2 years, I also think you don't need, let's say, the EUR 150 million net cash position you had in the past. So what is, let's say, your focus area for the coming 2 to 3 years in spending that money?

Yes. Good question. So first of all, I think to your point, if you may, on the cash profile during the year. Indeed, we have now moved to 50% dividend payout in cash. That means that when normally in construction, Q2 and Q4 are the more cash-generating quarters. That will now be for Heijmans more Q4 because Q2 will have in the coming year with EUR 45 million payment of dividends. So I think it's important to note when you look at H1. Then more in detail to your question, indeed, we will be cash generating in '25. There will not be a surprise. We don't think that's a bad thing. If you go back and unwind to 2022, we could buy Van Wanrooij because we had EUR 150 million on the cash. We wouldn't mind, Ton and myself, to further look for M&A possibilities. So if you are hinting at you now have cash, do you want to do share buybacks? We prefer to spend the money on wise M&A. If at some point in time, that doesn't come across, we will look at differences. But for now, we don't mind amassing a bit more cash and liquidity on our cash pool to make sure that we can actually do M&A.

And also, we want to invest in electrical equipment, by example, or future increase our land bank. So let the money working for the company.

Yes. So if I get it right, I mean, you would be fairly comfortable with having, let's say, EUR 150 million net cash again so that you're ready for any opportunity that comes by.

I wouldn't be troubled if I would have EUR 150 million cash on the bank.

Yes. And I agree. So because of liquidity, share buybacks is -- I like them. But for you guys, it's probably better to do within bonus dividend, maybe if you cannot find anything, yes.

Let's get the sequencing right. We first try to find something, Tijs. If we can't find anything, we'll come back.

Yes. So also from my side, congrats on the good numbers. Tim Ehlers from Kepler. First question would be on the guidance. So 8%, obviously, it's a good guidance, sense positive signal. But if I look into what you did in the second half, which is if I make a back on the envelope calculation around 7.9% margin, that implies 10 bps increase in 2025. So can -- is it fair to assume that the 8% is again a very conservative guidance similar to last year and there's room for more?

I don't know that it is conservative. It is a real outlook we give. And we will see the coming -- this year, how it's ending over 12 months.

And I think to build, Tim, we have said minimum 8%.

Yes. That's true. That's true.

Then one question on the order book in Connecting. So it's -- well, I wouldn't call it a decline, but it's at least stable. So we don't see an increase versus 2023. Could you maybe explain the drivers behind it? Is it -- as you already mentioned that -- well, if you don't recognize the whole framework contracts that the shift to framework contracts results in lower order book since you can't or you don't recognize all of the deals or the projects you have in there? Or what's the reason behind it?

So I think there are 2 key reasons. So A, when we move more to recurring business and framework contracts, which we are, to your point, the duration of the order book almost automatically reduces. So that's, I think, one impact. The second impact, and that's why the point on how do we work smarter, not harder, that automate is important. We are looking at a labor market that is overstretched. We are still finding the right people to do the projects, but we are consciously making choices about which projects to tender for, whether we have the teams in place. I would say 2, 3 years ago, we only tendered for those where we find the right risk/reward balance. But if the team wasn't there yet, we will sort it out down the line. Now the teams need to be there before we tender to make really sure that we have the people in place. And I think especially in our sector, it's important that we bring the projects home, sound according to the initial plans, and that needs high-quality people. That's also why we said for Connecting, let's make sure that the pace of growth that we can is actually doable.

So also using that, it seems like workforce is still a limiting factor for growth for you guys. Would that -- or is it then fair to assume that especially in Connecting, if there is something which comes at a reasonable price that, that would be a field where you would like to do some M&A also to overcome the staff shortage and to dive a bit more into potential growth markets in that field.

To be honest, I find buying companies simply for the people difficult because people have legs and people can move. So I'd rather buy a company for land bank or intangible assets that actually are there to stay. So I wouldn't say no, Tim, but I think it's less likely in all fairness.

Charles [indiscernible] ABN AMRO ODDO BHF. Firstly, a question on your EBITDA guidance because you're guiding above 8%. Are there any key divisions that are driving that 8%? Or do you see that across the board? And if there are any divisions, which ones?

I think all the divisions are between the 7% and 9%. So that is in all divisions, we have to like in all the same performance. So there's no one special better or less than the other.

Yes. To build on that, so first of all, we're not guiding north of 8%. We said minimum 8%, just to be precise. Secondly, indeed, we already have all 3 business divisions performing within that bandwidth, and we see opportunity for all 3 to improve. So we don't think that, that guidance that we have given that's above last year will be delivered only by one of the divisions, if that's your question.

Then next, do you guys think working capital become more negative in 2025? Or what would your guidance be for that and beyond?

I think to be fair -- you've seen that last year, we had a significant step in working capital. And if we make that simple, there are, I think, 2 key drivers of that. One is simply if you grow and it's construction, you are prefinanced, working capital will improve. That's a simple mathematics. But also, let's be fair, a large part of that is related to the housing market. If we unwind time a bit, basically from quarter 4 '23, we saw the housing market picking up again. So what we have had, and I think we also mentioned that in H1 last year, we've seen quite a positive working capital trend from houses that were under construction, but not sold, actually being sold, especially over the course of H1. So I wouldn't automatically expect that part of '24 to continue in '25. I think it's more a one-off impact given that the housing market, at least [indiscernible] is still going strong. I won't expect it to go south either, but I wouldn't expect a similar working capital improvement in '25 as in '24.

Then another one, if I may. You've acquired quite a number of strategic land bank positions over the year. Can you elaborate a little bit on these positions? So when will they be real projects, in 5 years or later? And are they suburban, urban? Some color to that, please.

So 60% of them roughly are suburban, 40% are urban. And they are really well balanced throughout the time line. Some of them will be developed tomorrow. Some of them will be developed in maybe 12 years, some even a bit longer. So the nice thing of the acquisition of Van Wanrooij is that it rebalanced our land bank on multiple levels, so suburban, urban I mentioned. But also, I would say, in time, we got a much better phasing over time.

Then my last one, what's your CapEx guidance in 2025 and 2026?

I would assume if you look at CapEx, not at land bank, but purely at electrical equipment, which is basically the key part, I would guide at somewhere around EUR 40 million.

I'll have a look for the last time, anyone for questions?

About your statement in the infrastructure business, diversification of the infra portfolio led to strong growth. I've not seen, let's say, such an improvement in 20 years covering construction companies. So I already think you're on the right path. But can you help me understand what actually is happening over there? Because in that division, you have project managers and they go away from, yes, plain and simple, but they might view large contracts and they move up to higher value-add contracts. So what are the dynamics that are going on there? And why is there growth? Because I understand there is increased margin, but I would not per se say it's growing in revenue.

Well, what you see in the infra market is that also when we have now the disruption on the nitrogen because we are not building new highways, by example. So it is now more renovating in that way. And you see all the road works are [indiscernible], I will say. So there's a lot of renovation work because of the greater intensity, heavy load trucks, and extra loads of them. The other way is the energy transition. It's a big market that's coming on. So we can increase there pretty much, I think, and also the high water program. So I think they will also increase in turnover, but also in margin over there.

I get that, but that's not really the question because those guys in your business unit were doing something else 2 years ago. Or were they underutilized back then?

No, I don't know if they are underutilized. I think there's much more margin in it and there is such a demand that you can earn more money over there. That's what I see.

And I think what also plays into is in our Connecting business, we used to do quite a bit of the work ourselves. So there's quite a bit of flexible scale around it that you can still access to actually grow turnover. So it's not that you only need your own people that has to actually make what you do. So that gives us the flexibility to scale up and down. And that flexibility, we utilized last year, next to the point that you rightfully say that we upped the ante in value of projects, which have a higher margin, but also higher turnover at the end of the day, that we are able to make that EUR 1 billion. But it also comes back to the question asked by Tim that I think that EUR 1 billion, and we now need to be careful if we do another EUR 300 million this year, there will be a challenge. And so there's only so much that, that bandwidth can be expanded. So now we need to make sure that we actually maintain this, fortify it, and then we can move again.

Is it also fair to assume that in the -- during the period that you are really focusing on getting the margin over volume strategy right that you use less subcontractors because that's more surveyable and that you now feel more comfortable in your tender action, so you can increase the usage because that is probably answering indeed my question.

Yes.

That is the difference. Okay. And then a technical question, the increase in the provisions on the balance sheet from EUR 20 million to EUR 30 million, what is that exactly?

It's exactly 2 things. So one is that we are prudent, as you know, but the most important driver of about EUR 5 million. You might recall that when Heijmans celebrated its 100th anniversary, it was now 1.5 years ago, 2 years ago, we awarded all employees with 100 share appreciation rights. I think it's a great mechanism to show recognition for all the work at Heijmans, but also as a kind of retaining mechanism. Now of course, they also benefited from the fact that the share price moved up by 160%. So that also means that the provision we need for those kind of employee payments went up last year by EUR 4 million to EUR 5 million. So it's prudence for half, if I need to say that, and half is those stock appreciation rights being revalued.

One final question on the retention bonus, which you report in the, let's say, the one-off and special items between underlying EBITDA to reported EBITDA. What can we expect in that position this year, next year?

So basically, when we completed the Van Wanrooij acquisition, we agreed to pay in total EUR 7 million of retention bonuses to make sure that going back to the people, important point that the people and the employees of Van Wanrooij were moved from old management to new management. That EUR 7 million was paid out or at least the relevant part of it was paid out last September. So from that point of view, it was 0 afterwards. And we are very pleased, both Ton and myself, that it did its job because, basically, there was no churn in employees at Van Wanrooij or hardly now, maybe 1 or 2 in the course of the 12 months after acquisition. But more importantly, after the retention bonus was paid out, there was no catch-up effect. So basically, we only saw a very limited churn of employees even below normal levels that we see at Heijmans at Van Wanrooij after September '24. So we are quite pleased that it did its job. But for '25 and beyond until we buy something again, I don't expect anything on that line.

I'm going to look around. Any more questions? I see no hands. Then I will say thank you for coming and see you at the interim results. Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.