Nordnet AB (publ) (SAVE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

With me today, I have our CEO, Lars-Ake Norling; and our CFO, Lennart Kran. Lars-Ake and Lennart will start off by presenting the results, and then we'll have a Q&A session. [Operator Instructions]. Presentation itself is available on our corporate website, nordnetab.com. Okay. Let's start the presentation. Lars-Ake, please go ahead.

Thank you. So you can go to the next slide. Let's start with highlights. We had a very strong quarter 4 with the second highest revenue profit in Nordnet's history, and good growth in both customers and net savings, in spite of challenging macro. And strong cost control with operating expenses in line with the financial targets, both for the quarter and the year. But we see that uncertain macro environment remains an overhang on trading activity, but that's well compensated by a large increase in net interest income from high interest rates, and we also see positive interest rate sensitivity and expect to grow net interest income significantly in 2023. I'm going to talk about that -- more about that later. It was a very productive quarter when it comes to product launches, where we launched a dividend tracker, watch list, improved log in and instant transfer function of capital from one bank to Nordnet with cooperation with Trustly. And we also have a proposed dividend of SEK 4.6 per share. We also received a number of awards during the quarter. We were awarded Bank of the Year in Sweden from Privata Affärer. And we also got an award for the Savings Profile or Savings Economist of the Year and that was Frida Bratt in Sweden that received that award. And we also got a recommendation from one of the consumer organizations in Denmark, Tænk. On to the next slide. A little bit on the financial highlights. We grow the customer base underlying at 10%, savings capital down 11%. Market has been down more, but that's compensated also by the net savings during the year. Trades are considerably down compared to quarter 4 last year due to a negative market sentiment and uncertainty among the customers when it comes to trading. But looking at revenues, it was up 7% year-on-year. So a decrease in trading revenues was more than compensated by the increase in net interest income. And again, the second highest revenue for Nordnet ever. We also had a onetime adjustment of SEK 20 million during the quarter related to a correction of fund revenues for the years 2021 and 2022. Operating expenses grew in line with the targets of 5%, and where we grow is product and tech and not in operation units to deliver them faster on our exciting road map. And profit before tax was up 8% and also second highest profit for a quarter ever. You can go to next. Highlights for the full year of 2022 is much of the same story, of course, where we see a drop in trading. And for the full year, we see a slight decline in revenue, 7%, where the drop in the trading revenue is not fully compensated by net interest income over the full year. Operating expenses, again, aligned with the target and a slight drop down in profit before tax compared to last year. But still, considering that we had a very challenging year in the markets last year, I'm still proud of delivering a strong result of SEK 2.1 billion in 2022. Go to next. We also see a good continued growth in customers and net savings, despite negative markets. 2022 was one of the worst years in many, many years in the markets. And in spite of that, we grow the customer base with 160,000 new customers. And we had a net savings of total SEK 36 billion. So that, I would say, is a sign of strength. We can go to the next slide. Here's the net savings developments, both inflow and outflow. We see that inflow continues now in the quarter on a good level. And we see also a slight reduction in the outflow from also now offering interest rates on our savings accounts. So in November, December, we turned net savings back into positive territory. Go to next. And our geographical diversification derisks the business model that we have. We see that Sweden has had the largest impact last year, with the largest drop in the market of 25%, but also highest impact of inflation and increasing interest rates. If you look at the development in Norway, for example, the market was slightly up during the year, and trading has been quite okay. So all in all, we see a smaller drop in savings capital and also higher customer growth outside of Sweden. You can go to next. And we have a diversified revenue stream, and that's bolstering our revenues in total. And if you look at the graph down to the left, you see that the red part now, which is net interest income, is really starting to pick up due to high interest rates, but we see a drop in fund revenues and trading revenues. But still, if you look at the average return per year, both fund revenues and trading revenue since 2019 is still on good levels. If you look at the chart down to the right, you see the margin for -- starting with the deposits on top, which is increasing now considerably due to increasing interest rates, while the margin on the brokerage, on the trading is going down due to less trades per customer. And we also see a drop in margin on the fund revenues due to a shift from active to passive funds, and also that we lowered the platform fee in Norway for index funds and also a slight decrease in purchase of foreign funds as well where we have an FX component. You can go to the next. And now we come to net interest income. So we're going to talk about the liquidity portfolio, the lending portfolio and also our interest rates we give on deposits for the customers. But starting with the liquidity portfolio, we expect that to generate SEK 1.8 billion in 2023, but that's assuming quarter 4 2022 volumes and also the currency allocation credit spreads and market consensus that you see below here on interest rates. We currently have SEK 58 billion in our liquidity portfolio. And the liquidity portfolio overall generated SEK 400 million, give or take, last year, but is expected that to increase to around SEK 1.8 billion through the full impact of the interest rate hikes in 2022 and additional hikes in 2023. But of course, this is dependent on the deposit volumes overall that we have. Go to next. Talking about the loan portfolio, we expect that to generate around SEK 1.1 billion in 2023, assuming on quarter 4 2022 volumes and interest rates as per Jan 1. And we talked -- we have talked that SEK 7 billion in our lending portfolio now. And on top -- on the top here, you see the light blue is our unsecured loans portfolio that's stable of SEK 4.1 billion. We see good growth then in mortgage, the dark blue, up to SEK 11 billion and also stable margin lending at the bottom there, in spite of negative markets. So it's been quite resilient. And the lending portfolio last year generated around SEK 800 million, and we expect that to generate SEK 1.1 billion in 2023. But this might, of course, be slightly higher because we'll likely have more interest rate hikes and also more volume in our lending products. If you look at the pass-through of the interest rate, we have a pass-through rate of interest rate hikes of 90% on unsecured, 30% to 70% of margin lending, depending on country; and 80% to 90% of mortgage. And overall, we have a low-risk lending portfolio, loan-to-value margin lending and mortgage around 40%. And the credit losses, the only real credit losses we have is on our unsecured portfolio, and that's still on a low level. You can go to next. And we estimate that the interest we will pay out to the customers during 2023 is going to be around SEK 200 million. Again, here, assuming quarter 4 2022 volumes on our savings account and other accounts with interest rates, and the interest rates also we see on Jan 1 this year. And so right now, a total 22% of the deposits are on accounts with interest rates. And the interest cost on total deposits is around 23 bps, and interest cost on deposits bearing interest are around 104 bps. But this, like, might also be slightly higher if you see more volumes into savings accounts and, of course, high interest rates during 2023. You can go to next. Coming to trading, we see on the graph to the left here that number of trading customers is going down due to the negative markets and challenging macro. But still, if you compare it to 2019, so before COVID, we have considerably much more trading customers due to strong growth, of course, in the customer base. Trades per trading customer is also down due to negative sentiment. But we see the share of cross-border trade is stable on a high level due to the country mix, with a high share of cross-border trading outside of Sweden. You can go to next. If you look at the full trades per customer per trading day for the full customer base, and that's the dark red line at the bottom, you see that's considerably lower than what we saw in 2020 and 2021. But it's also lower than the light blue line, which is the average 2018 to 2019. And we expect this activity to come back more to what we saw in the period '18 to '19 before COVID when the market stabilizes on the positive side. We can go to next. But looking at it holistically, I mean, we see lower trades per customer. But still, we have double amount of trades per day in 2022 compared to 2019, and that's due to that we basically doubled the customer base during the same period. And we also see a higher income per trade. You see that in the graph to the right. So the margin is up 24%, and that's due to higher share of cross-border trading. Go to next. And just to round off, a few also product highlights. And as I said, it was a very productive quarter. And we delivered on a very demanded service from our customers, and that's to see a dividend overview. So we delivered that both on the web, on the app. And we also had over 20 new versions of our app during the quarter with a lot of new nice features. And we also extended our securities lending program with also international shares with U.S. and Canadian shares. So with that, I hand over to you, Lennart, to talk a little bit more about the financials.

Thank you very much, Lars-Ake. Please go to the next slide. And as Lars-Ake already said, I mean, this was the second best quarter ever with SEK 950 million in revenue. That is very close to Q1, only superceded by Q1 2021. But the composition of the revenue is, however, different with the NII much higher, but that is also the result of the resilient and diversified revenue streams to offset that. And then we have those stable commissions anyhow on the non-transaction and also on the transaction revenues. We can go to the next slide. We also maintained a very good cost control with stable costs throughout time, and that is handled by both planning ahead continuously to know what we are negotiating contracts, suppliers and everything, and also plan what we are going to do with development because we still have a very high speed of development within the tech section and our offerings to the customers. So it's very pleased to see that we anyhow can maintain this good cost control. We can take the next one. With that said, we still have this operating leverage with a high revenue, with a stable cost. We have this adjusted profit before tax, SEK 2.1 billion for 2022, which was a very strange year with different effects on especially the transaction-related commission. But giving this operating leverage, we're pleased to present that. We can take the next one. This gives us the opportunity to maintain with a 70% dividend, which is SEK 4.6 per share. And even though maintaining a good capital ratio, both on the risk-weighted side and on the leverage side, we have SEK 20.9, with a requirement of SEK 18.2. The increase of the requirement is mainly due to the contracyclical buffer that was we stated during 2022. The leverage ratio dropped from 4.2 -- 4.8% to 4.6%, which is a small change, though, but all due to increased volumes of deposits. Actually, the balance sheet grew by that. And with that 4.6% in leverage ratio, we have the capacity to take on further SEK 45 billion in deposits, so very strong in that respect as well. By thereby, I hand over to you again, Lars-Ake.

Thank you, Lennart. So a little bit on the strategic long-term focus. You can go to next slide, and you've seen this before, but I just want to touch on it on a key strategic ambitions. We're starting, of course, to have a really happy customers by providing a one-stop shop for savings and investments, with a great customer experience, and we reach that through building on our platform for savings and investments every day. We want to continue to strengthen our #1 best position and also secure that we have low churn also going forward. We also know we will never have happy customers, unless we have passionate and engaged employees. So of course, we're going to see an upward trend on employee satisfaction, and also that we can attract and retain top talent. And sustainable business at the bottom, we are in a trust business. We need to earn that trust every day, and we need to manage our risks in a good way, that's not least on the compliance risks, and that we overall are a trusted and liked brand. And there's profitable growth that we capture the fantastic growth potential we have in the Nordics and continue to take market share in a growing savings market, and also ensure scalability and good cost control going forward, both through automation, but also by our tech platform. We can go to next. We have very strong long-term growth in customers and savings capital, which has been accelerating in the last years. Two main factors is that, every day, improved customer experience through building on our platform for savings and investments. And the other one is the critical mass in all countries, that drives also word of mouth growth. We can go to next. And Nordnet is taking market share in a growing savings market. We have 6% market share of the addressable population. We also have 6% market share of the addressable capital -- savings capital, and that's SEK 13 trillion, up from 3% in 2016, so we basically doubled the market share in 5 years. And we expect the addressable market to grow, both from underlying market growth, but also that we launched new products like the Danish livrente, the pension product, and then endowment wrapper in Finland. And to the right, you see where we have highest market share in trades -- or equities, but we have low market share in funds and pension where we have a very big growth potential and where we also put a lot of effort. You can go to next. And looking at the cost side, I mean, we have stable costs now for 5 years. So we have a very scalable business model, but also very good cost control. The main levers for that is our scalable cloud-powered tech platform. We can onboard a lot of new customers without running cost. We also work heavily with process simplification, automation, and this is a win-win. When we automate the work, better for the customer, but at the same time, we scale better. Also highly efficient customer growth mainly derived based on word of mouth and PR, allowing for no customer acquisition costs. And also that we engage heavily with our third parties, our suppliers, not least now to renegotiate all the inflation clauses that we have in agreements. Go to next. We also updated another medium-term financial targets, and as adjusted for the new interest rate environment that we see and also the big dip we saw in the stock markets in 2022. And we assume then, over the midterm, an average interest rate of 2% and an average annual stock market performance of plus 5%. And the adjustment is the customer growth was 15%, now 10% to 15%, depend a little bit of the market climate. Average savings capital per customer is from SEK 450,000 to SEK 420,000 due to the big decrease in the markets in 2022. The income margin is going up from 45 bps to 55 bps due to the high interest rate environment that we're in. Adjusted operating expenses, we see that on the midterm, a growth of around 5%, but we also say, now in 2023, it's going to be slightly higher of -- around 7% due to the high inflation rate that we currently see. And the dividend payout is unchanged, 70% of the profit after tax. Go to next. And where we are right now, then customer growth 10%, which is still very good, considering the very challenging year in the markets in 2022. Savings capital per customer is going down now, but still a little bit higher than target. Income margin is 46 bps, is lower than. But when we get the full impact of interest rate increases during next year, it's going to move up to around 55 bps. And the cost increase so far is around 5%, but slightly -- will be slightly higher in 2023 of 7%, but then back to mid-single-digit growth again. Go to next. Just some key priorities for 2023. We, of course, have a very long list of things we're going to achieve in 2023, but some of the more important things is that we're going to launch the Finnish endowment wrapper to address quite big markets for high net worth individuals in Finland. And we expect to launch that in quarter 2, quarter 3 time frame. And we also go to lay the foundation for the -- to be able to launch the Danish livrente product in 2024. We're going to work extensively then integrating Shareville in our app and web, and we are well on our way here, but we want to conclude that work in 2023. And we're also going to expand our Nordnet branded fund offering in a fund company. And of course, we have a lot of focus also going forward on cost control and further automation initiatives. So with that, I think I hand over to you, Marcus, to do the Q&A.

Great. Thank you, Lars-Ake and Lennart. [Operator Instructions]. So first question comes from Ermin Keric from Carnegie.

The first one would be on the NII. So maybe two small questions there. First off, is there any additional lending rate hikes that haven't been included in the guidance that's coming into effect now during January?

Not -- I mean, the rate hikes we saw last year is now in the numbers, what we presented. But of course, there might be additional rate hikes during 2023.

Okay. And then on the deposit side, how are you thinking about having to share future rate hikes with your depositors?

Yes. It depends a little bit on competition and also customer behavior. So we're, of course, going to follow that closely.

Do you see any pressure to share at all, I mean, more on the different tax wrappers in the countries outside of Sweden?

Not outside of Sweden, as we see now. We don't see tax wrappers as efficient for saving deposits, in any case. So that's why we also have savings account now in all countries, and we offer interest rates now in 3 out of 4 countries on savings accounts.

Okay. And then moving over to the brokerage. So in Norway, we saw a larger drop in the brokerage than Q4. Is there anything that can be done there to maintain the activity? Or was that simply market driven? And maybe also on a broader perspective, you talked about the trades per customer now being lower than, let's say, in '18, '19, and you expect it to return to that level. Given that you added more broad retail-based customer base now, which may be save more in funds, et cetera, do you still expect it to return to that historical level? Or is there anything structurally that's -- being with adding new customers that maybe aren't as interested in trading, but more interested in other savings products?

Yes. Starting with the first, Norway, I think that's just dependent on the market. I mean, Norway was strong -- very strong in the first half of the year. It got more negative in the second half, and I think it has impacted the Norwegian trading. You saw also perhaps a little bit less share of cross-border trading in Norway as well. But overall, the full year for Norway has been quite good when it comes to trading. So we don't see any -- I mean, if the market turns a little bit positive again, we see that, that should pick up. When it comes to trades per customer then in the full customer base, I mean, as you know, we follow the cohort quite extensively, and we see the customers coming in, in 2020, 2021 and also 2022. The basic behaviors, the average customer in the older base, if you deduct the heavy traders. But if you look at the general customers, it's about the same behavior. So we expect the trading to turn back a bit based on that when the market stabilizes on the positive side. I think markets are more positive now, but it's still a lot of uncertainty if this will last or we'll see a new downturn.

Perfect. And then one last question for me, just on the 7% cost guidance you have for next year. You also said you're working actively on renegotiating supplier contracts, some inflation links, et cetera. What success have you included in your guidance there with regards to renegotiating those contracts?

Yes. Most contracts, we've already been through, so we're quite certain that we will reach the 7%. But there's been a lot of heavy negotiations, a little bit giving and taking. We're trying to find win-wins also with the suppliers, but it's been quite fruitful discussions.

Next question comes from Jacob Hesslevik from SEB.

So can you hear me now?

Yes.

All right. perfect. And continue on the NII and Ermin's questions, I mean, looking at the rate hikes in February, and then March from ECB and from Riksbank, and you did say competition is limited outside of Sweden, but do you expect to be less generous in that coming hike compared to when you introduced your rates in November?

Yes. I mean, we follow both the market, but also, of course, the customer behavior, if we see large outflows or not and, of course, how big the rate hikes will be. So we follow this very closely on an almost daily basis, of course.

All right. So the follow-up then on that. You said you follow it closely on customer behavior. Have you seen any change in customer behavior since you introduced a deposit rate in Sweden then?

Yes. I mean, I think we see slightly less outflows, both in Sweden and Norway, where we have the highest rates on savings account. So yes, some changes. And let's see how this plays out in -- during this year. But I think the actions we took with introducing interest rates on savings account has been very appreciated and much more so than having interest rates on the KF and ISK, which are not optimal for savings and deposits for tax reasons.

All right. And lastly, just a clarification regarding your expense increase of 7% for 2023. Do you expect the expenses to grow by 5% in 2024 based on 2023's cost level, with a 5% annual cost growth and average of the years?

Yes. Good question. I mean, it's mid-single digits, it's 4% to 6%. It's -- over the period, it is 5%. But yes, I don't think 7% sticks out that much. So I think you need to look at this mid-single digit over the period.

Next question comes from Enrico Bolzoni from JPMorgan.

So my first question, there has been some discussion at the European level to ban rate recession on funds. I believe that only in Denmark at the moment, this is already active, but not in Sweden, Norway and Finland. So my first question is, how would you react to that? And could you potentially be proactive and maybe change the way you charge and introduce a platform fee in this country? So that's my first question. The second question is related to the potential cash sorting. So one of your competitors say that there is a risk that more and more clients might continue to move money out of the deposits and into money market funds. So your guidance on -- have you factored that at all into your guidance? What kind of behavior are you seeing from your clients in this regards? And then again, one of your competitor has been mentioning the possibility to expand inorganically. I mean, in your case, you're already across the Nordic region. But what are your thoughts on M&A in terms of potential bolt-on deals that can expand your capabilities or simply help you to growing in scale and size?

Okay. Starting with the platform fee, it's true. I mean, in Denmark, we don't have a platform fee, but we give back retrocession over a certain level. And -- but we do have a platform fee in Norway, where we basically have a retrocession ban. We've had that, I think, more than 1.5 years now. So we know how to play this game, and we went down a little bit in margin, but we went up in volume as a consequence. So of course, if we will have a retrocession ban also in Finland and Sweden, we are prepared. We have all the technical solutions in place, but we also -- know also how to play this a little bit in the market. When it comes to the guidance of -- especially then the liquidity portfolio, we said, I mean, the SEK 1.8 billion is based on the quarter 4 volumes of deposits. So if you see large flows outside of deposits -- from deposits out, of course, that's going to have an impact on the SEK 1.8 billion. But we also know before, I mean, the deposit versus savings capital on the platform for a very long time, and we are on around the 10% level has been the historic level. So of course, if the market is super strong, there might be some outflows. But we are basically on -- a little bit on the average level on deposit to savings capital, in general. When it comes to inorganic growth through M&A, I mean, our plan going forward is organic plan. We are taking market share in a growing savings market and have very long-term growth potential ahead of us with over 6% market share. But that said, I mean, we've done a lot of M&A through the years. The last one was to acquire the one competitor in Norway, Netfonds, so we know how to integrate acquisitions in an efficient way. We only have one platform across all markets, in spite of buying companies. So we know how to migrate in an efficient way. And so, of course, if there is something in the Nordics, we'll look at it. But it also boils down to how much you need to pay per customer or for the savings capital. But of course, if there are interesting opportunities, we'll look at it. But our plan is not based on that. So it's going to be purely opportunistic.

Next question comes from Nicolas McBeath from DNB.

So first, a question on the adjustments you made to your targeted average savings capital per customer. So I was just wondering, is this purely an effect of adjusting for stock market values? Or have you also made some changes to your assumptions regarding savings behavior and net inflows?

No, it's mainly based on the big drop we saw in the markets in '22 and then assuming a 5% growth in the markets from there. And then you have the normal mix of new customers diluting a little bit versus all customers and aggregating savings capital. So -- but we know also, for sure, the market growth is never going to be at 5% savings. It might be more or might be less. But to have a number, we need to assume a growth rate, with 5% on top of the 2022 closing.

Right. Could you say something about what do you assume in terms of net savings?

I mean, we foresee, of course, net savings to pick up if the market again turns more positive. I won't guide exactly on the numbers, but of course, considerable outflow is what we saw in -- at the end of 2022.

Okay. And then I'd just like to come back a bit to the topic of the customer activity and where we are currently relative to what can be considered a kind of a normalized level. So what makes you confident that the current activity level is actually below normalized? I mean, it would just be interesting to hear how you reason about where normalized level is and why you think so.

I'm also looking a little bit about the course that I touched upon before. We see the cohort behavior -- if you exclude, they have a trade risk that live their own lives basically. But if you look at the cohorts of 2020, '21, 2022 versus the old cohorts, the behavior now in this market is very similar, and there's been a tough market. But we assume when the market moves back to more normal, we see the old cohort to move back to more normal trading. And thereby, we also assume that the new cohort will also move in the same direction. But of course, let's see how this plays out. And we also have, I mean, a market with interest rates now. So they're also, for some customer, incentive to also saving in fixed income products.

Next question comes from Panayiotis Ellinas from Morgan Stanley.

Just maybe comment on the trends in Norway you have seen. I mean, deposits have declined quarter-on-quarter, and you have also seen net outflows in the quarter. So despite increasing the interest on the savings account in November, so in the guidance you gave on -- in terms of deposits, do you assume no interest on investment accounts in Norway? And do you also assume any change in the interest on the savings account?

Look, in Norway, I mean, we don't see interest rates on the tax accounts. And when it comes to the savings account where we have interest rate, I mean, that depends if the interest rate is increased or not going forward in Norway. So we're going to look, of course, what happens with competition and also customer behavior, if that happens. But based on the current rate, we see -- we have now, we don't expect it to increase.

Okay. And then in terms of the customer growth guidance for the medium term, so the 10% to 15%, if we were to split by country, which one do you see as the biggest opportunity, if I may ask?

Yes. I think you should look a little bit on the trends with highest growth in Denmark followed by a mix, yes, between Finland and Norway and then Sweden. So -- but let's see. I think we will not see the same differences between the countries we saw in 2020 and 2021. But I think still, some of the new markets like Denmark is perhaps growing a little bit more.

Next question comes from Jacob Kruse from Autonomous.

So just two questions, I guess. First, on the net interest income, the guidance you gave, these numbers, the SEK 1.8 billion and SEK 1.1 billion and the SEK 200 million of deposit, is the way to read this that you're making SEK 2.9 billion minus the SEK 200 million, so SEK 2.7 billion of guidance for 2023? And is there any other effects that come in addition to those three?

Yes. That's a good question because, I mean, we have to remember that those numbers are based on quarter 4 volumes and quarter 4 -- or beginning of quarter 1 interest rates. So there will be movements, of course, in liquidity portfolio. Then I mean, we estimate some interest rate hikes. If that's different, of course, that will impact. But also if the deposit volume is increasing or decreasing, that will, of course, impact that number as well during the year. If you look at lending, that's -- I mean, that's based on the quarter 4 volumes and also Jan interest rates. And also here, I mean, we expect -- I mean, we -- of course, a continued inflow in lending volumes and also slightly high interest rates, so that number might be a bit higher. Same as deposit to customers or interest rate to customers, it's also based on quarter 4, what we see quarter 4 volumes on savings accounts and interest rates. And that might also be a bit higher if the interest rates continue to increase and also more money goes into savings accounts. So you have laid a bit different dynamics. So it's not a full '23 year guiding. It is what we see based on quarter 4 and interest rate today, basically.

Yes. And then just to follow up on the question on M&A. Do I get it right that if there are add-on deals, the focus is very much Nordic? You don't have any interest in...

No, no. It's Nordic, Nordic, yes.

Next question comes from Alex Medhurst from Barclays.

Most of my high-level questions have been answered, so maybe just a couple of clarifications, if that's all right. On the fund commissions, is there any sort of step change in revenue margins on funds going forward after the sort of retroactive repayment this quarter? I don't know if that means that some of the revenue margins historically were sort of overstated. And then secondly, you mentioned you've expanded your stock lending offering. Is there any revenue impact from that move?

Yes. So the adjustment now, I mean, we clear all that out. So we don't expect any other adjustments. And the correction we did was basically was SEK 1 million per month during the period 2021 and 2022. We foresee a fairly stable margin on funds. I mean, what we've seen is a mix shift and from active to passive. We've seen -- we also reduced the platform fee for index funds in Norway and a little bit shift that you buy more local versus international funds. But I think that's very much baked into the margin that we see today. When it comes to stock lending with -- from U.S. and Canada, it's a bit too early. We phase that in, so let's see how that plays out during 2023.

And then just maybe a followup, if you can hear me still. Just maybe following on from Enrico's question. Have you seen any sort of mix in the types of asset classes that the customers are holding within their funds? You clearly mentioned the shift to passive, but more kind of fixed income or money market instruments, instead of -- or funds, sorry, instead of equity products.

Yes. No big change yet because I think the customer is still waiting to see the real effects of the interest rates also on the fixed income funds, which has not really been there to date. So there might be -- become a bit more popular in 2023, 2024. But let's see. But there's not been any major movements to money market products.

Next question comes from Maria Semikhatova from Citi.

A couple of questions. First on your NII guidance, just can you provide what amount of deposits were on savings account at the end of the fourth quarter? And what is the current rates you offer? Also if there is, let's say, a certain level of rates because we expect further ECB hikes that you will offer positive rates in Finland. And then maybe kind of what generally, outside of Sweden, are there any limitations to move, let's say, your liquidity from investment to savings accounts? I would just expect some shift within different deposits or there is a tax consequences or any other, let's say, regulatory limitations for customers to kind of take advantage of the higher rate on savings. And then on the customer growth, we are 10% underlying right now. You kind of revised to 10%, 15%. Have you made any estimate of, let's say, accelerated customer growth from your new product offering, this Finish endowment wrap or livrente in Denmark or it's more kind of a reflection over expectation of some improvement just in market sentiment overall?

Yes. Starting at deposit, so we currently have SEK 4.5 billion on the savings accounts. And the increase is mainly in Sweden, little bit in Norway, but mainly in Sweden. The actual interest rates, we offer various between the countries. As you know, Marcus can provide you with that if you need that breakdown. When it comes to new rates in Finland, again, depending on competition and customer behavior. But of course, if ECB continues to hike the rate, we might have also some rate on savings account in Finland. And when it comes to them moving from the tax wrappers outside of Sweden into the savings account tax effects, if you take out money from the tax wrapper, then it's a tax event. So the profits you have on that money, you need to then tax when you take it out. It's a little bit different in Sweden, where you tax every year basically. But here, you tax it when you -- on the profit when you take the money out. And customer growth, 10% to 15%, I think, is a lot related, of course, to market sentiment and the market share we have on the population of 6%. So we see still a strong growth potential, but we know also it's very market sentiment driven. So that's why we have a range. But of course, some of the new products like endowment wrapper and livrente will also help over time to drive a little additional growth, even though we start marketing those products to our own customer base.

We have a written question here. So similar to what we just got, but what are the different assumptions around the different ranges of customer growth? And what do you expect for 2023?

I mean, I think that's why we have a range. It depends very much on the market sentiment. Of course, if we have a very strong year, it might be slightly higher. But I think it's still Norway in 2023, even though we see some more positive markets now, it's a lot of uncertainty. So a lot of customers wonder if this is now stabilization or if it will have a big downturn again. So still a lot of uncertainty out there in 2023. So I think you need to have a little bit longer period in a positive territory before the sentiment really shifts. But I think the assumption between the growth here is both, of course, looking at historic growth, but also that market share of 6% we have today and the growth potential we have in the years to come.

Okay. I don't see any more questions, so I think we'll wrap up for today. So thanks all for attending the presentation. Our next quarterly report is out on April 25. Please visit our website, nordnetab.com, or reach out to me if you have any questions. Thanks all for your interest in Nordnet, and have a nice day. And goodbye.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you all.