q.beyond AG ($QBY0)

Good day, ladies and gentlemen, and a warm welcome to today's call of the q.beyond AG following the presentation of Strategy for 2028. We are very pleased to welcome the CEO, Thies Rixen; and the CFO, Nora Wolters, who will guide us through the presentation and the results in a moment. After the presentation, we will move on to a Q&A session in which you will be able to ask your questions via chat and audio line. And with that, I would like to hand over to you, Mr. Rixen.

Yes. Thank you, Mara. Hello, everybody. Thank you for joining the call. Nora and myself, we will present you the Strategy '28. As you know, we both joined the Board '23, then we executed '23, '24, '25, the Strategy '25. And we developed in the meantime, the Strategy '28, which we like to present today. Nora will start with track record of '25, so what we delivered. Nora?

Thank you, Thies. A warm welcome from my side. I would like to start with a quote of Antoine de Saint-Exupery, "A goal without a plan is just a wish." 3 years ago, as Thies already mentioned, we started with the Strategy 2025. And today, we are taking stock. Following this, in the follow-up meeting, you will see the new strategy. But let's look back for the last past 3 years. The Strategy 2025 based on 3 strategic pillars: The focused business model, the go-to-market approach and the efficiency program, One q.beyond. If you look at these pillars, all were seen as visible successes in our financial reports this year. We doubled the EBITDA margin up to 7% in the current financial statement. This is the third year that we have a positive free cash flow. And one of our strongest goals, the positive consolidated net income, was reached this year. If you look on the second pillar, the strategic go-to-market, we established the direct and the indirect channels with about 85% revenue in the direct channel and 15% in the indirect channel. And this is the basis for our go-to-market in the Baltic states and Spain that we already started this year. The third pillar, the efficiency program, One q.beyond. When we started together as a Board team, we had to reduce complexity, q.beyond made a lot of acquisitions in the last years until 2025. So we integrated them, reduced complexity. And additionally, we raised up the international subsidiaries. Now we have nearly 20% in the near and offshoring subsidiaries, starting from 3% at the end of 2022. As you remember, 5% nearshore ratio means 2% of staff cost. So we did a great way in the last 3 years. Or to say it in other words, we promised and we delivered. Our main goal in the last 3 years in the Strategy 2025 was profit over growth. And I'm very proud to say we reached it. If you look on the guidance for 2025, you see that the guidance was reached, especially, we are very proud for the positive consolidated net income. The last year was a very challenging year, especially the United States and the politics of Donald Trump and the tariffs are influencing the markets, especially the small- and medium-sized companies in Germany that have a very strong export orientation. So as you see, we are a very reliable partner. Clear goals with a reliable plan. And we have demonstrated this in the Strategy 2025. And I would like to say implementation is our commitment. So please look at the details for the new strategy that Thies will now present to you. And with this, I would like to hand over to you, Thies.

Thank you very much, Nora. Nora will join later during the Q&A session. And I'd like to present you now 3 things. One is who we are and why we win. Then I will give you -- I'd like to present the details of the Strategy '28 and also the financial outlook, including the guidance. So who we are and why we win? Most of you know that -- know us. So we are one of the leading IT service players in the German mid-market and likely to be in the European mid-market. So we are well positioned, left-hand side of the slide. We -- as you know, so we have 5 core industries, 70% of the revenues is there. We have our own data center. We are BSI- or C5-certified, so we can play the sovereign game. We are -- we have a team of 1,000 tech experts. Nora mentioned already the international footprint, 14 locations in Germany, more or less headquarters in -- or the heart is in Hamburg and all over the place. And then we have Baltics, Iberica (sic) [ Iberia ] and the U.S. We are very proud of our customer relationships. So we have 100 direct customers and over 1,000 indirect customers, which we are -- this is our indirect channel. So there's huge potential for us developing these customers, and you see the revenue split 85% to 15%. When we approach customers, we always try to do the Consult-to-Operate approach. So we start with consultancy project-based business and like to convert it to recurring, to managed service business. We have a portfolio, strong tech portfolio, which covers all the needed topics of the German and European mid-market. And you see on the bottom, you see that we have a reliable customer base which stays long with us, contract duration over 4 years, high satisfaction, and we are more and more able to cross-sell. Why I am telling you this? Because it gets more and more important in the AI space. With whom we play? So we are well positioned, and you see here with whom we play. This is important to understand, especially for the guys who don't know us. So we are playing with Bechtle, with DATAGROUP, with Allgeier, All for One, Adesso, for example, also Arvato, we are playing not so much or competing not so much with Deutsche Telekom or Accenture. Why is that? Because they are not so much or so deep in the German market. So what we do is we combine our IT portfolio, tech portfolio with industry knowledge. We will do it more and more in our Strategy '28, and we are playing very strongly our Consult-to-Operate approach. The market in Germany is big but there are several, let's say, challenges. So when we look at the market, we have 70,000 companies with a turnover above EUR 10 million. So this is our addressable market, so to say, with EUR 50 billion IT services. And when we look at the challenges, there are many of them new to it. It's cost pressure, not only because of competition because of rising hardware prices. So we are the one who helping the mid-market to overcome the challenges. And this we do because we are able to help them in their tech challenges and also more and more in their industry challenges. So we think more of business in both business models than in tech. And therefore, the Consult-to-Operate approach is getting more and more important. And with that, we like to simplify and secure the mission-critical IT of our customers. So how do we do that? We're combining our IT portfolio, as I mentioned, with the industry expertise, especially in retail and logistics, we are very strong. We like to enhance it. I will come to that later. And then we have this Consult-to-Operate approach. So everyone in the company is trained on this approach and is following the process so that we help the customer with consultancy and industry expertise and then we transform it to managed service recurring revenue. We, let's say, developed 2 examples to show you what we do so it gets more tangible. So one is Rohlig. It's one of the biggest customers. We just prolonged the contract for 5 years till '31. So there you see consult, integrate, operate. So this is what we do. So we started 5 years ago, let's say -- or let's say, 5 years ago, we started with consultancy, then we integrated several technologies for them. For example, SAP, we implemented cybersecurity, and with SAP we implemented the transport management system, which is very important for the logistic value chain, so to say, and we are operating it worldwide for 36 countries. And this is what we mean by consulting to operate. We start with consultancy. We implement tech projects. We know the processes. Otherwise, we cannot implement and adapt the transport management system CargoWise and then we run it and develop it even further. So when Rohlig, for example, is entering a new country, a new market, then we just roll out of the box all the solutions we have developed with them. Same is for Dr. Beckmann, known at least as a worldwide champion in, let's say, washing products or hygiene products, Fleckensalz in Germany. So there, we started with the IT road map, IT strategy. We implemented SAP. We did the S/4HANA project. Microsoft, we rolled out several Microsoft services and now we are in the engagement to run the whole tech suite with several millions. And of this kind of clients, we have several, and this we doing more and more and more to have this Consult-to-Operate approach. So now the Strategy '28, scaling growth and margins. It's -- the ingredients are threefold. Here, you see them. The first one is more Industry Focused, second one is AI Orchestration and the third one is Internationalization. And I'd like to walk you through each of the pillars. So I start, I will give you an overview and then give you more details what we mean by that. So Industry Focus is, as I told you, we are strong. So we have industry knowledge in every of the 5 industries. We are very strong in retail and logistics, and we like to enhance it to new industries, especially for energy and health care. There we are playing the macro trends, and why we are doing that is driving margin. We see it in retail and logistics. The -- let's say, the EBITDA margin, these 2 segments is above 10%, and we see a great possibility or likelihood that we have it also for several other industries. AI Orchestration will be, for us, a new portfolio. So what we are doing right now, we are building agents for our clients and we see more and more agents coming up as we all see and someone at the end of the day has to orchestrate them to manage them. And there, we see our sweet spot. For us, it's nothing more than managed service. So if we manage applications, for example, it's more or less the same from the method we are doing in AI Orchestration. This is driving top line, so it's a growth segment. And when we use it internally, it will drive efficiency. So then we -- so if we have industry focus, more industry focus, more industry expertise, we combine it with AI Orchestration. By the way, when you like to have vertical industry-specific AI agents, you need this kind of industry expertise, otherwise you can't build them. So it's like a prerequisite to have industry expertise to build these industry-specific AI agents. And then we will roll it out. So for example, for Germany, then for Spain, I will come to that later. Spain is half the size of Germany, and third priority of the Baltic states. So this as an overview. I will start with the industry focus. So what we are doing there, please keep in mind that we have as a blueprint, we have our joint venture, logineer. So with that, we are serving Rohlig, and we like to do the same in the 2 industries. So here, see left-hand side, our current industry focus. I just put the numbers to retail and logistics. So we are doing like EUR 50 million in retail. So Dr. Beckmann is, for example, in retail, Tchibo and Fressnapf and others also. Logistics is EUR 25 million, and manufacturing is strong, it's around EUR 40 million, but we -- at least in Germany, we know that manufacturing is under pressure. And then we have, for sure, banking and insurance and the public sector is also -- has also kind of size of EUR 10 million, but we will focus on health care and energy playing these 2 macro trends or one is aging population for health care. And the other one is, let's say, the decentralization of energy production plus the demand of the energy demand of AI and all the other electro products which are now coming up. So how do we do that? And therefore, it's important that whether you have this kind of experience since 5 years with logineer and Rohlig. We'll do it mainly by M&A. So we are aiming for a joint venture where we own like, let's say, at least 51%, and the focus will be health care and energy. As I said, the approach is that we find companies where we can play this Consult-to-Operate approach, that we have the chance to get managed service recurring revenues in the industries. And selection will be very, very KPIs, strict KPIs-based selection. You know that some of -- most of you know that we have bought several companies, let's say, 5 years ago. We not bought anything in '23, '24 and '25. So we learned a lot and all the learnings we will put into the new M&A targets. And the fourth one is the funding. We have a financial solid base with no debt and net liquidity and like to spend it for M&A, for share buyback and for dividends. So the AI Orchestration is for us, it's a logic -- the logic way, and let's say with 2 arguments. One is if we have enough industry knowledge, then it's easier for us to play the AI game, plus when we orchestrate them, when we manage them, it's in our DNA, we know how to do it. So the market is big enough from our point of view. So we analyze the market as you see left-hand side, so EUR 1.6 billion, it's big enough. The figures are in 4 years. But it's big enough, it will evolve. And when you see, in the middle, the regulatory environment and market drivers is the same as -- more or less the same, as I mentioned before. There's a lot of pressure coming from competition to the mid-market. There's a lot of regulatory pressure, let's say, the geopolitical threats or uncertainty is growing. And they're all looking for a way to build agents or all our clients are looking for a way to build agents to combine them and to run them. And for them, we will build, and this is our goal in sovereign and AI Orchestration service. So why we can do that? Because we see we have 3 structural competitive advantages. The first is we are sovereign by design. We have been delivering sovereign cloud services for years and we know how to build them. In our private cloud, all what we do, it's all sovereign in a way. Not 100%, there is no 100%, but we know how to do it. The second argument is that we're part of the German Mittelstand or mid-market. We are -- as q.beyond, we are also a mid-market player. We know what is important. We know how they think. We know how they feel. We know what is -- how you can execute projects. And the third one is we know how to deliver and track record and delivering value, otherwise no one will stay with us for 10 years as I showed you in the beginning of the presentation. So no one will trust their data, their infrastructure, their processes in our hands if you're not able to deliver value. And these 3 advantages, we will also adapt for AI. So what will we do and how do we will earn money? We will do 4 things. The first is, for sure, we will run the, let's say, the infrastructure, the data, the logic. This we can do in our own data center, but we can do it also on partner infrastructure like Deutsche Telekom or like STACKIT. We are focusing on the service part. We are not going to invest millions and millions in hardware. That's very important. So we will do that. Then we will build AI agents. So if the customer wants to have an AI agent, maybe an industry-specific AI agent, we will build them for them. So we have like built for ourselves, I will show you in a minute, 300 agents. We have built several for our clients right now. And this -- and this is the third element, we will combine with other agents. Let's say, third-party agents from SAP, from Microsoft, whoever. We will build them. And then the fourth element, we will orchestrate them. So we like to manage them so that the clients are working in the way they should do technically. And then this second element is that the governance of the company so that they operate like they should do. And then there's, let's say, the compliance part, that everything is as it should be. And this will be the biggest part. This is the recurring part. And then we can also execute, and this is very important for us, the Consult-to-Operate approach, as I mentioned several times. So we have 4 times the chance to generate business. And how do we do that? We will lay in '26. We lay the foundation. We are already in it. '27, we will speed up and '28, we will scale. And we analyzed, let's say, the average revenue per customer, and this will be EUR 500,000 per customer per year. You see left-hand side what we do. So there will be project-based business in it as managed service business, and the main part will be managed service. And this we like to do not only in Germany, we like to roll it out to Europe and starting with Spain and Baltics. Here's some more specifics in the foundation. We are in the mid -- as I said, we're in the middle of it. We started '25, so we have built several agents. We have a 7-figure pipeline with, let's say, 50 deals in it right now. So we are convinced that we get the first 20 clients this year with this revenue, as I just described, and then we'll do it more and more in the coming years, so '27, '28. We will build our own platform as a management platform. And on this platform, we will set up client after client. And then we will transform ourselves. We will keep the IT service provider business. We will enhance it with industry expertise, so getting more margin and value out of it. And then we will combine it with the AI portfolio as the sovereign AI orchestrator for the European mid-market, as I mentioned several times. This is, let's say, the heart of the Strategy '28. Here, you see several agents we built for our clients, for ourselves. So we have already deployed 300 AI and automation agents for ourselves. And this is like in 4 weeks we are able to -- over agents, we are able to, let's say, to save the amount for 4 or 5 head counts. So this is the current trend. And having this in mind, you can imagine what this means for us, but also what does it mean for other clients where they can enhance their competitive situation. So our focus is for sure in IT operation and security and also for customer service. We are doing a lot of things. We have built for human resources, recruiting agents. We are doing all the knowledge management for ourselves. Procurement is a big thing. It's also for procurement that you can save a lot of, let's say, license costs if you don't -- if you need not so much SAP any longer and especially for the governance with all the regulatory things, you can automate with AI very easily for us and also for our clients. So the third element is the Internationalization. I covered several times. So we start with Germany for sure, then Spain is half. When you look at the IT service markets, it's half the size of Germany, different dynamics. They're growing much faster than we do. Third priority is Baltics. It's a smaller market, but still, it was EUR 2 billion some business to do and let's see which market we can enter also. Our aim is to have, in the end of '28, 10% of our business outside Germany, and we are in the middle of rolling out our core portfolio. We will design our AI portfolio as a European portfolio. And important to mention is also that the nearshore quota, Nora mentioned 20%, we have already -- we will push to 40% and also to driving margin also with the nearshore quota. There is a, to be honest, there is a -- we have to manage or we have to balance the AI effects and the nearshore effects, but we're aware of it and we'll find a way to use both levers. So this brings me to the financial outlook and value creation. So when we execute the Strategy '28, we like to have a company with EUR 250 million of revenues and at least a margin of 10%. And the components are, we like to grow the business by 5%. So once, which knows us, we told you or reported last year that we, let's say, optimize our sales. We have new guys on board, very experienced sales guys, which we know for quite a while. And with this approach, we like to grow the business again 5%. This will bring us to, let's say, in 3 years to EUR 210 million. So M&A strategy, let's say, another EUR 20 million, EUR 30 million of revenue with this joint venture approach. So very -- not so much cash needed. And then with the AI Orchestration, we like to have EUR 20 million to EUR 30 million of revenue in the end of '28. And this will bring us to EUR 250 million of revenue and at least the margin by 10%. The margin -- the main drivers will be AI, will be nearshore and then the additional business we get over M&A and AI. So in a nutshell, what will we do? We will increase our customer value and our margin by combining what we have as IT portfolio with the industry expertise we like to get over M&A deals. Then we build a new portfolio which we call AI Orchestration where we will buy or build and combine the agents and we run it for our clients so that they have not the hassle to do it. And we are convinced, or we see out of the discussions, that they don't have the expertise for that. And then we will roll it out to Europe and position ourselves as the, let's say, sovereign IT service and AI orchestrator for the European mid-market. This is our strategy in a nutshell. And then at the end, I'd like to give you some details about the guidance for this year. And I'd like to invite Nora again to the stage so that we can -- if there are some questions, we can answer them. So this is our guidance. So in terms of revenue, and you know all the, let's say, all the trouble in the world right now so this is a cautious guidance, especially for revenues and also for EBITDA. So we like to say we have like EUR 182 million to EUR 190 million in revenues and then EBITDA EUR 10 million to EUR 17 million. For next year, for sure, Nora and myself, we will work hard to get the EUR 190 million and EUR 16 million -- sorry, the EUR 16 million EBITDA, but we are not quite sure what will happen in the world. So we took this spread to be more or less on the safe side. And with that, I'd like to thank you for your attention, and we are happy to get your questions. Thank you very much.

[Operator Instructions] We have already received a question in our chat from [ Mr. Eckberg ]. Actually, 3 questions. I will read them out loud for you. First question is, when is the earliest possible date to start buybacks?

Yes, I will take this one. So the first possible date is mid of August. I think the 17th of August, we can start the buyback. And we are able to buy, let's say, 2.5 million shares back in the current -- with the current value. So this is the allowance of the shareholder meeting to take this question also. So 17th of August.

The second question is, will you consider selling the data center this year and return the money to shareholders, or will you keep it for now to build further value first?

Yes, value first. We will keep it for now to play the sovereign, let's say, not game, to be sovereign in a way. We have a lot of customer demands, let's say, if this converts into business. And so our current approach is to keep the data center and to push it to the maximum value and then sell it in the midterm.

And his last question is, and when do you roughly think you will achieve this acceptable level of transaction value to start looking on selling the data center?

As I said, we think midterm for now, so midterm 3 years. For now, we like to push it to a certain value or to the maximum value. Pipeline is good, demand is good. And then we can sell it only once, and we will do it in the right way and also to maximize the return for the shareholders.

We have also some risen hands. The first one from Mr. Kindermann.

My first question on the AI revenues you currently have, could you share how many customers you already have and what revenue you did with them in the last year?

We have like several dozens. It depends. So we have some in Microsoft. We have some for SAP. So they use this dual agent, and we have built up an own competency where we have like 10 customers. The revenue is small. It's under EUR 1 million last year, but we see it's growing. It's growing. As I said, we have now a funnel with 50 deals in it with a 7-figure pipeline and we see the growth rate is accelerating.

Okay. Maybe to specify with the AI Orchestration where you targeted 20 clients in 2026, how many are from these 20 do you already have?

Like 10. So we have to -- we will get for sure another 10 this year, and then we will build a platform for it. So this application -- we will build a platform for it to manage the AI agents. And I think there will be -- or what we see is there will be -- they're all building agents, all the clients are building agents where we will point in time as we have seen in the cloud business or in the application business where someone has to manage them. And therefore, we're building the platform so that we can, let's say, next year, '27 and '28, play these orchestration or use this platform to generate revenues in the AI agent orchestration.

Okay. And then the EUR 500,000 per year per customer would also be a target for 2027 or 2028?

Yes, this will be evolved. So what we see is that if you build an agent, it's like -- it depends a little bit, but it's like -- it's project business. So it's 100 to 200 per agent for now. This will, for sure, will be -- will go down the price. So we will be getting better and better and better. And then someone has to run the agent and has to integrate the agents, has to update the agents and has to control the agents. And this will be our job as we now do with application processes or with cloud services. This will be the focus.

We have more risen hands. The next one from Mr. Nilsson.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Great. I want to continue on AI. So I mean, could you give us some example how your industry expertise have influenced the agents you have made for customers so far?

Yes. For example, if you like to automate the -- how the contracts in logistics, if you're in the logistics area, if you'd like to automate how the contracts are getting into the transport management system, then you need to understand how the contracts are coming and what is in the contracts and what is important for the logistic company. And if you don't have knowledge about the processes and all the specialties, then you're not able to build an agent who can automate this kind of process. So this is what we mean for it. You need to understand how they work and what are their challenges, the client challenges, otherwise you're not able to build an agent which is able to cover 100% of the process.

I see. Great. And also in general, what is the interest in AI agents from your customers at this point? Are they ready for this new technology and willing to invest in it?

What we see is the main focus is automation, is process automation because of the pressure -- of the pressure from competition, of the cost -- sorry, of the cost pressure. So they need to get rid of costs and to be -- to stay in the game. So -- and therefore, automation is everything. And therefore, you need this kind of industry expertise. Otherwise, you're building agents which can be copied by others, and then you're in this commodity price gamble, and we like to stay out of it and build agents with a heavy moat, which have a barrier to entry. But it's automation all over the place. And the technology, yes, it's complicated. So everyone can use AI, but only a few can really get value out of it. So we must make sure that we get the right talent or build the right talent and be better as our client. So that's more or less the prerequisite for it.

Okay, great. And regarding the internationalization focus, I mean, taking non-Germany sales from 3% to 10%, I mean, it won't have any huge effect on the group in total. So I mean, could you elaborate a bit why it's a wise move to go into the Baltics and Spain rather to focus 100% on Germany?

Germany has positive and not so positive macro environment right now, and we like to balance it. And for us, it's -- we started with the internationalization, though with the delivery hubs 4 years ago. Now we have 20%. For us, it's the same journey. And why we start with Spain and Baltics? Because we have great teams there. We know the market. We have a good network. This doesn't mean that we stop there. And therefore, I talked about priorities. So for sure, we will start with Spain because it's a very big market. And third priority is Baltics. So we are able to balance or to be not so independent from Germany and also to being -- to get used to roll out our portfolio to different countries.

Great. And one last question from me. I mean regarding the discussion of potentially selling the data centers, how will that affect your profitability? Can you reach 10% EBITDA also without those data centers?

Interesting question. I'm not thought about it. We are not thought about it. So for us in the '28 figures is a data center included and all the revenues we are generating is -- so this we can say. I cannot calculate it right now what is the impact without the data centers. In this EUR 250 million, 10% the data centers is included.

We have another question by [ Mr. Price ].

Do you already copy?

Yes, we hear you.

Cool. Thanks a lot for being allowed to ask a question. The numbers have been a bit odd because of the reverse split. And I might say that maybe next to inverse Cramer, reverse splits are the biggest red flags in the stock markets that there are. So basically buying back your own shares is the only viable reason that can be positive for shareholder value to do a reverse split. So basically that's good, but it needs to be communicated. So when I took up you as an investment case, the shares were about EUR 0.76, and I had understood that you have cash of about EUR 0.43 per share net. Now the shares at EUR 3.50 are even cheaper than they were at the time adjusted for the split. And I understand of that, more than 50% of free cash to -- about the capitalization of the company are used to buy back shares, only 10%. I mean of course, the 6 months, you cannot do anything about it, but I think you would have to deliver on your promise saying that basically right now, buying back your own shares is the best investment that you are seeing in the market. And 10%, I think, are not what people like me had been looking for.

Okay. Yes. Okay. So this is -- so you're saying we have to buy -- you like to have -- we like to see a higher buyback?

Well, the case was you said that your shares are the best thing you can think of. And if you have more than 50% in that cash of the cap. Well, then -- well, there is something in between 10% and 50%, I guess.

Yes, sure. And I said also that we have an allowance to buy back 10% of Grundkapital, I cannot translate it. So this equals to 2.5 million shares, what we are allowed to do right now and no one hinders us to go back to the next Annual Shareholder Meeting and ask for a higher percentage.

And are you going to do that?

When the first program is going the right way, or the first tender is going in the right way, why not?

Good. That's good to hear. I mean basically, I really like your case of not being or staying too dependent on the U.S. players. I think that's a great game to play, and I also appreciate you keeping the data center. But you said that we promised we'd deliver it, and I think you have to do that. One more technical question. I just asked my wife, who heads the [ team at ] Allianz Commercial about the offshoring and nearshoring quota of the guys providing the services to them. And she said that Infosys and the likes have more like 80% offshore quota. I understood you're right now at 20% nearshore and needs to accelerate that to 40% or want to accelerate that to 40%, but nearshore, not offshore. So it's just the difference in the type of customer. Of course, Allianz is not quite Mittelstand, that you can allow yourself to have such a high onshore quota compared to their consultants.

Yes. That's the main reason. We are providing German Mittelstand, so they're very reluctant in terms of offshore. So they like to keep the data in the EU, so you are too nearshore. And they're very -- the history of the German Mittelstand to allow players like us to deliver out of Germany is like 2 years -- 2 to 3 years now. So it's a different picture than talking to a global Fortune 500 player like Allianz. They have done it since 10, 15 years, and then they're pure globalized. It's a different -- I would say it's a different picture.

Okay. So you don't see much danger in that kind of competition from Infosys and the likes with your customers?

No, because of regulatory. The regulatory defends us, let's say. So this is the main defender, and it's a big entry barrier for them. So we don't see it.

Good to hear. Just to conclude, I think you should communicate that in a bit more progressive way, that you are still trying to buy back shares. I mean that the shares are now lower than before you communicated the buyback. Yes, you should do something about that maybe.

Okay. Thank you.

We have one more risen hand from the [ Meyer AG ].

I'm sorry, I should have changed my name maybe. This is Philipp. So my first question would be regarding the data center and the 2028 guidance. So maybe remind me, what is the current utilization of the data center? And what is the implied utilization within your 2028 guidance?

What is the first one? What is the value?

No, no, the utilization.

Utilization. So we -- I like to -- utilization is like what we have in kind of free capacity, free capacity, I will...

Exactly, exactly. That's what I mean.

Yes. Okay. Good. So we have like this -- we have sold last year 10%. So we left like 900 square meters. Last year, it was 1,000. Now we have 900. So this was very, let's say, not very, but this was -- for us, it was not what we expected last year in terms of selling. When we look at the funnel, we are able to -- we have good deals in the funnel. We, let's say, the disadvantage is that it takes some time to close the deals. So we are able to sell end of the year, let's say, 75% right now. So we have a funnel of selling 75% of the data center free capacity, and this is included in the, let's say, guidance, '28.

That you get it to 0, the vacancy basically.

Yes, sure.

Okay, understood. That's helpful. And maybe regarding this year's guidance, the lower end of the EBITDA guidance, is that pure macro stress implied there? Or is it also incremental AI and internationalization investments you have to take?

It's pure macro stress.

Okay. All right. And coming back to the nearshore target of 40%. Question one, when do you want to achieve that? Question B -- question two, what gross margin effect would that have?

The gross margin is.

Up to EUR 3 million, and we will reach it at the end of 2028.

Okay. That sounds promising. And another one on the AI revenues you want to make until '28. You said EUR 20 million to EUR 30 million would be your target. Can you give us a bit more color on the margin profile there?

It's hard to say because we don't know the market environment. But at least we're aiming for gross profit of 30%. And for sure, we're aiming for a margin which is higher in managed service right now. Let's see, let's see. But this is what we see right now. So at least it will be the margin of managed service. So we are aiming for 50% recurring revenue. And yes, that's -- we have to see how good we are.

Okay. And the EUR 500,000 you mentioned per client, this is recurring, right?

No, that's the average. This is the average revenue, the average revenue. So when you build agent and you run it, and this will convert over time. So first, you build it, so build the agent, then maybe it's 50-50. And over time, if you run more and more agents, it will be more and more recurring revenue. So this is a long-term play and we have seen the -- so we applied more or less the same logic we see in managed service. And there you see that you get -- when you do it in the right way, you get more and more revenue each year because you're running more and more process application infrastructure.

Okay. Understood. Yes, I'm interested to see where this is heading 1 year from now, maybe. Regarding M&A, you were really clear right now in this call that you're targeting health care and energy. You also mentioned, I think it was on the last call, that you wanted to buy some companies last year but you didn't get them. So how concrete is that right now? Will we see news flow in that regard this year?

You know that, Philipp, that's always hard to say because we have not signed it. So last year, we were very reluctant on price, not reluctant, very cautious on price. So this -- so we have some targets, especially in health care, which are very well developed. And we will -- so if we get to the table, then you will see news floor -- news flow, not floor, news flow. And this is for health care, for energy, we are, let's say, in the screening phase. So this is -- this will take longer. But health care is, let's say, hot.

Okay, but you will not -- just because you lost out on some deals because of price last year, you won't tend to overpay. You will remain [ analytic ] on that one.

Yes, yes. No, we will not change our strategy. We will keep it. We will keep it. And you know us a little bit right now. We will take care of the money.

We do have one more question in our chat. We have been to that question, it's regarding share buybacks, but I will anyways read it out loud for you. It's again by [ Mr. Eckberg ]. He writes, regarding share buybacks, what is the maximum premium price level you are allowed to buy on? Can you buy both over market and blocks at premium?

I think we are free in the way we buy back shares. It's on us. If you ask us right now, we are -- we think more about the tender. We think more about the tender, and there's no limit as far as I know, no price limit. But for sure, we will be very cautious on putting the right price in the tender. So it's more a tender, if you ask me right now, and I don't see any price max limit to it. I hope this answers the question.

I guess so. We have not received any more questions or risen hands. [Operator Instructions] But I think there are no further questions so far and everybody seems perfectly happy. So Mr. Rixen, Mrs. Wolters, we, therefore, come to the end of today's earnings call, I guess. Thank you for your participation and obviously your questions. If you have any further questions at a later time, please do not hesitate to contact Investor Relations. A big thank you also to you, Mr. Rixen and Mrs. Wolters for your presentation and for taking the time to answer all the questions. We wish you all a good remaining week. Goodbye. And I hand over one last time to you, Mr. Rixen, for the last final remarks.

We'd like to thank you for your time, and we hope that you see the way we are taking -- so we will not -- we will -- the foundation is what we did the last year. This we will, let's say, enhance with this industry and AI, and we like to develop the q.beyond to a European player. That's it for -- that's in the strategy for next 3 years, and we are happy to give you an update soon. Thank you very much.