ReFuels N.V. (REFL) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning. Welcome to the ReFuels N.V. Q2 2025 Results and Q&A Presentation. [Operator Instructions] Before we begin, we'd like to submit the following poll. I'd now like to hand you over to Philip Fjeld, CEO. Good morning.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for that. And yes, pleased to see you all this morning. And I've got with me Baden, who will take you through our Q2 and first half of 2025. Quite excited about some of the developments that we are seeing in the market. But first, just to give you a bit of an overview to what we're doing. We're on a mission to decarbonize Europe's truck fleet. which is a very tough challenge, given the nature of the vehicles and the so-called duty cycles, meaning the work that they do. Our focus today is the U.K. It doesn't mean to say that we're not longer term or medium term next year and thereafter that we're not looking at opportunities outside of the U.K. But today, we've got 14 larger fueling stations operational across the U.K., 2 more in build. We've got north of 1,800 trucks using our stations every day. And we're very proud of the fact that in our last audited financial year, we helped our customers save north of 155,000 tonnes of greenhouse gas emissions. This is what a typical station looks like. This is Newton Aycliffe in the Northeast of England. As you will see here, there's not a canopy, there's not retail facilities on site. These are very much designed for trucks to come in, refuel with 100% sustainable and renewable fuel and then leave again. They're unmanned. They're extremely efficient ways of putting huge quantities of 100% sustainable and renewable fuel, in our case, gas into vehicles. This one can do 14 trucks simultaneously, up to 80 trucks per hour. And as such, we are not aware of any larger and more efficient ways of putting renewable energy into vehicles than currently our stations. If we look at some of the key highlights, we had growth 20% year-on-year, expecting that to pick up going forward. We had the annualized EBITDA. This is from the station portfolio alone. We'll talk a bit about biomethane and RTFCs a bit later on. We're expecting the annualized run rate from the station portfolio alone to achieve north of GBP 12 million. So on average, GBP 1 million a month of EBITDA run rate once the current order book of vehicles that we know our customers have ordered are put on the road. We are starting to see improved RFC margins, covered later in the presentation, and I know Baden will go into that as well. We've got -- we started after the construction up in Livingston, Scotland of our 16th grid-connected station, and we've got another 4 large high-capacity stations that are ready to go into development. We've also done an exciting long-term biomethane offtake agreement. And finally, what we've announced some months ago, the discussions that we are now or negotiations and papering of agreements that we are doing with Foresight to simplify the structure, is going well. Once again, we'll provide a bit more highlight later on. Just on the right-hand side here, I'd like to sort of highlight, if you look at the certificates or RTFCs awarded and sold, you'll see there's a lot of lumpiness there. You'll see 16 million, 35 million and 72 million. Now why is that? That has to do with the fact that we've come through a period where it's been very challenging to source biomethane at positive margins. And of course, that has meant that we -- in the periods where the margins have not been great, we've chosen not to source biomethane to the full extent of the dispensing we're doing in our stations. That has now changed. We're seeing positive margins again. And hence, we are taking the opportunity to catch up on some of the dispensing -- or sorry, some of the sourcing of biomethane that we didn't do earlier in the year or sometime last financial year. If we look here just on -- briefly on the record that we set with regards to dispensed volume for October, getting close to the magic 5 million kilogram mark that we would be thrilled to move over. And more importantly, on the top side, because months -- of course, have some months of 30 days, 31 days, 28 days, et cetera, we have a metric as well, which is essentially the average of dispensing per day across the month. And that's also now showing growth again. You will see there was a period during the [ summer ] months typically where volume looked like it was flatlining, which it indeed was. Now why was that? Predominantly driven by the fact that truck orders and vehicles weren't necessarily delivered through that time, but we're now seeing a large quantity of trucks being delivered almost weekly, which again, of course, puts us in a good position to see continued growth going forward. Here are the two stations -- sorry, we've got in construction. Doncaster, which we are excited about, will be commissioned and opened very soon. And then we've got Livingston up in Scotland, which will be our second station up in Scotland. For those of you who can squint or can look at this afterwards and zoom in, in the background of that station, you will see there's a very large distribution center. And I think this is a good example of why we build and locate our stations where we do. In the background, you see Tesco. That retailer doesn't really need any more introduction, a very large distribution center of theirs. And here, they will have refueling infrastructure on their doorstep and of course, next to one of the busiest motorways in Scotland. For those of you who followed a couple of our calls previously, you know we're very excited about the so-called 6x2 trucks coming, and now they are finally here. The demo trucks are finally on the road. Now why are we so excited about that opportunity? Because so far, we've essentially been limited to penetrating the 4x2 market, which you can see on the left-hand side here, which has an overall market size in the U.K. of 25,000 trucks. We are getting close to 10% of that market now. On the right-hand side, of course, you see a 6x, a 6x larger market, which is basically the 6x2 market. And we haven't -- because the vehicles haven't been available from the manufacturers, we haven't really been able to penetrate that market. That's changing. We've got a very, very long list of fleets wanting to demo the 6x2. We founded the company more than 10 years ago. We've seen various iterations of new upgraded CNG vehicles being launched, larger engine, different cabs, longer range, meaning larger CNG tanks, et cetera, et cetera. But the interest we're seeing in the 6x2, we've never seen before. It's off the charts, if you want, with regards to interest, and we're really looking forward to letting some of our existing and potential new customers really get to demo this vehicle going forward. We consume a lot of biomethane through our station network, and we will continue to do so going forward, an ever-increasing chunk of biomethane that we need to source every year. Some of that is typically short- to medium-term sourced, and some of it is long-term sourced. What we announced a couple of months ago is an agreement with Green2x, a project developer in Denmark, which are looking to develop one of the largest, potentially the largest biomethane facility in Europe, and we're one of the cornerstone offtakers for them. This fits very nicely with our strategy to secure long-term biomethane offtake and quite large contracts, even though it starts up in 2027, '28. You'd say, "Well, hang on, you're still in 2024, Philip. Why is that so important?" Because we need to think we can't only rely on the short-term market as such. We need to get a balance. And therefore, doing these deals is important to make sure that we have a sensible balance of long-term and short-term contracts going forward. We've previously mentioned -- sorry, announced some months ago that we are doing work now with Foresight to simplify our structure to bring the stations that are today sitting off balance sheet on to balance sheet of CNG Fuels and thereby, make it easier for us to access new growth funding going forward. Why? Because then the station revenues get internalized, the assets get internalized, and therefore, it's easier for us to attract debt going forward. And that's something we're excited about, will happen really soon. And once again, as I say, that will put us in a really good position to secure the growth funding that we need to continue to roll out our network as we go forward. In the U.K. and across many European countries, we have a so-called blending obligation. Now what is a blending obligation? So that is an obligation to put a certain quantity of renewable liquid fuels such as petrol and diesel into transport. Now liquid fuels could be bioethanol, biodiesel and a couple of other fuels that can go into the liquid fuel network. As you see here, that is an obligation that is growing year-on-year, meaning the percentage is lifted every year. And if you look at the obligated fuel suppliers, so the suppliers of liquid fuels, they essentially have two ways of complying with our obligation. Either they blend themselves, they go out and they buy biodiesel typically and they blend and thereby generate certificates, which they put into an account or they can buy certificates from companies like ourselves that don't supply liquid fuels, but we do supply sustainable and renewable fuels, just so happen to be gases. So if you look going forward, there's a continued tightening obligation, which means there is more and more, typically, biodiesel that is required to go into this sector in order to comply with the obligation. Once again, for those of you who have been following us for some quarters now, you will have heard us talk about how challenging the biofuel market has been in Europe, globally, really, but particularly focused on Europe. Why? Well, we've come through a period of probably close to 2 years now, where the European market has been flooded by particularly Chinese biodiesel. Now what's happened since that started? Well, the EU has now put tariffs on Chinese biodiesel, which has hoped to greatly reduce the flow of that coming into Europe. The U.K. is investigating China, and we'll see the outcome of that probably pretty soon. And we've got other helpful, I would say, backdrop within the industry. As an example, China announced earlier in November that they are ending the export tax rebate on biofuels and feedstocks for biofuels. Once again, they've essentially been subsidizing the export. And therefore, by removing that, we will see more expensive product in the market, which is starting to help lift the cost of biodiesel. Now, why I continue to mention biodiesel? Because if you look at the graph here, which is showing the spread between the RTFC price -- or sorry, the correlation between RTFC price and biodiesel, you'd see that as the cost of biodiesel comes up, the cost or the price of RTFCs rise. And that's important because, of course, we generate RTFCs, and that's important for our margin. But what we're now starting to see is a more healthy biodiesel market and thereby, improving margins and costs and -- sorry, prices within biodiesel, which has a positive effect on the RTFC price. Another development in the biofuel world, which gets launched on the 1st of January 25, is the so-called SAF or sustainable aviation fuel mandates, which will be introduced in the U.K. and the EU from the 1st of Jan next year. Now we are providing renewable fuel for trucks. Why are we focused or why are we here talking about aviation fuel? Because aviation fuel -- sustainable aviation fuel is likely, for many, many years to come, to mainly be produced from the same feedstocks that today are used to produce biodiesel or road biodiesel. And it is expected that the sustainable aviation fuel mandate and the aviation sector will have a higher willingness to pay currently than what road biodiesel can or has. So therefore, we are expecting and the industry is expecting that a lot of the feedstocks that today are flowing into the road transport sector are likely to move into the sustainable aviation fuel sector and thereby, potentially or likely depending on which [ camp we ] sit to tighten the feedstock market and thereby also contribute to increasing the cost of biodiesel. Today, most road biodiesel, waste-based road biodiesel, I must stress, I should have made that clear earlier; is particularly made from used cooking oil and tallow. Now there's only a so much sustainable supply of that globally, which this graph illustrates. And that's also one of the reasons why the Department for Transport in the U.K. came out last week and said, let's do a consultation to see maybe we should make some changes to the RTFO, the road transport fuel obligation, given that there is a potential for feedstocks to move into sustainable aviation fuel sector rather than the road transport sector. And I think this isn't an effect you will see overnight, but it is, I think, a positive backdrop that we'll continue to develop and probably amplify over the years to come. Here is an illustration of what our earnings potential looks like with -- or gross profit potential, sorry, if we have various RTFC prices. Now, pretty much a self-explanatory graph here. But what we've essentially outlined here is illustrating from the current number of trucks on the road over to 2,800, which is not assuming any further growth in our network, but it is assuming that the vehicles we know our customers have ordered will be delivered in the months and quarters ahead. And if you then just assume that there's no growth beyond that, which of course, is unrealistic; then I think the right-hand graph here is a good illustration of the gross profits that can be derived from supplying this into the road transport sector. We are seeing RTFCs recover, as you saw in the previous graph. Now where will they go in 2025, remains to be seen. But I don't think there's any doubt now that certainly the backdrop and to some extent, the market balance looks a lot more favorable with regards to providing sensible and sustainable RTFC prices going forward. And with that, I'll hand over to Baden.

Thank you, Philip. So as Philip has mentioned, the biomethane margins have been recovering. We've had 6 of the last 7 or so quarters, which have been affected by the dislocations in the biodiesel markets. But as you can see from the graph on the right, we have had a steady increase. It has been steadily increasing since about October last year with an increase in the last quarter -- in the reportable quarter up to about 19%, where we're looking at historical average of around 30% and above, where we believe that the market will rebalance to over time because we feel that at around those levels, the market is clearing, the biodiesel industry is healthy and functioning normally once again. So we saw gross profit margins, which we define as the RTFC price we've sold in the period over and above the biomethane cost that we purchased up biomethane for, of around 19% in the quarter. And as we mentioned to the market in our earnings the other day, we saw a 27.5% margins in the October period, reflecting those higher RTFC values that we're now seeing, as well as sustained sensibly priced biomethane, which we're now -- which we are sourcing. As Philip showed in one of his earlier slides as well, you'll see that we have -- we generated 72 million RTFCs and sold them in this quarter, which was up nearly double or more than double that of last quarter, which again -- and had a very small number in the first quarter of this -- in the fourth quarter of the 2024 reporting year. Reason for this being that we have the ability to catch up the biomethane over the course of the obligation calendar year, where we purchase less if the biomethane is expensive or RTFC prices are low. And so we have been able to -- as RTFCs have improved, we've been able to purchase more biomethane, catch up the amount over the year so our customers are able to increase their amount of sourcing. And so now we are able to benefit on an outweighted basis from the improvement in margins currently and into the fourth quarter where we will continue to purchase additional quantities of biomethane to top up those amounts from earlier in the year. So larger amounts of biomethane at higher margins, which obviously should be very positive for the business. In addition to that, we're able to sell forward RTFCs about 12 months, depending on where we are in the prior year, but to the end of the following obligation year. So we're currently working hard at the moment on purchasing biomethane for next year and selling RTFCs against that to lock in those margins and lock in that additional supply for the next year. These aren't the long-term contracts that Philip was speaking about earlier, these are the contracts we do in the relatively shorter-term market, but are very important, obviously, to the business and ensuring profitability in the following year. So this is the separate part of the business. For those of you who haven't watched us present before, it's worth just noting that the station portfolio is held within the CNG Foresight joint venture. We do not consolidate the earnings of the station portfolio, so the 14 open stations at the moment, the earnings from those are not consolidated into our profit and loss. But we feel it's important to discuss with the market and show the market the progress of those stations and their profitability, especially in the context of us now looking to do restructuring of Foresight, where we will look to bring them back on to our balance sheet and their earnings back into the business in order to attract lower-cost finance. The station portfolio generated GBP 1.75 million in the second quarter, roughly flat with our previous quarter, but up about 75% on the comparable period last year. Truck growth has been slow through the sort of seasonality through summer, but largely due to slow deliveries of vehicles. which we're now seeing catching back up again and accelerating. As we've -- again, we've discussed before, we have a large order book. Those are orders that are confirmed where they will arrive, but the timing of those can be difficult. They can arrive in lumpy -- they can be lumpy in arrivals. And so obviously, as those vehicles are onroaded, we will see the contribution they make to the business jumping -- starts to jump up, respectively. In addition, we're also seeing a lot of pent-up demand coming for the 6x2 with the trials and potential orders for the 6x2s, and we suspect that is slightly slowing the immediate growth over the next quarter or so, but -- just in vehicle orders just while people wait for this new product to come to market. EBITDA was held steady and dipped ever so slightly because we had -- we did a lot of seasonal planned maintenance in the quarter. We do -- we are currently at a run rate of around GBP 7 million per annum of EBITDA coming off the CNG stations. And once the vehicles that are on -- that are on order arrive onto the road, we anticipate that will drive our EBITDA contribution from those vehicles at the station portfolio to more than GBP 1 million per month. So we've had a much better quarter with the -- again, with improving margins from RTFC sales with revenues of GBP 35.8 million versus GBP 27 million in the same period. Of course, this is distorted slightly by the the natural gas sales. Just a reminder again that because of the way -- because we are an agent for the stations, a lot of the revenues don't pass through to our bottom line in the same way it would if the stations were on balance sheet. However, the gross profit of GBP 2.9 million was largely driven by the RTFC sales through the RTFS-ownned entity, which does biomethane, of which GBP 2.7 million of that gross profit contribution came from profitable RTFC sales in the period. We've seen a decrease in our research and development costs. We've been very cost focused over the last couple of quarters, and we're really starting to see that come through very positively. We've got a station in the pipeline of near-term stations ready to develop that can be -- fill our development profile for next year. So really focusing on those next couple of stations for 2025 and 2026 and making sure we get those ready to be built as quickly as possible. And looking at focusing on overhead cost per kilo, which was -- which continued to [ decrease ] from 26p last quarter to 25p this quarter on a per kilo basis, down from 37p per kilo in the prior quarter last year. What's great to see, of course, is that on an adjusted EBITDA basis, so removing from noncash items, we have broken even in the quarter, which is the first time we've done that since the listing on the basis of pure sort of current market performance, given our prior one was due to forward sales of RTFCs that we had been able to do in 2022 and in [ summer ] 2023. So this is a real performance of the business in the current trading environment, and we're very pleased to see we've returned to profitability. So financial position, GBP 180 million of assets in the period versus GBP 166 million last year. That's largely due to increase in trade and trade and turnover during the period. I'll just remind everyone, we've GBP 84.5 million of goodwill and GBP 10 million of customer and brand-related intangibles. Those were revalued last quarter downwards as part of the valuation work for the end of year annual reports, where the auditors wanted to see the purchase price allocations of those being done. That is not a write-down. It was not a profit and loss. It had no profit and loss impact, but essentially revaluation of independent valuers work on the business. Most of the current liabilities are made up of the borrowings, with related parties being principally the Foresight Group. And those -- we expect those borrowings to be rationalized as part of the existing transaction, where we will look to convert those into CNG fuels shares. And finally, cash flow development. We've had a decrease in cash flow from operating activities, actually largely due to increase in receivables over trade payables in the period. We have had cash flows from investing of negative $0.6 million and an increase in the financing from a drawdown of GBP 2 million on the working capital loan with Foresight, which I mentioned in the previous slide, which is now fully drawn at GBP 10 million. And we had cash remaining at the end of the period of GBP 8.3 million across the group. Thank you.

Thank you, Baden. I will just do a quick summary, and then we'll go into some Q&A. I can see some questions have been submitted, and feel free to continue to submit them even after we started the Q&A session, we'll just pick them up as we go along. So a brief summary here. We're finally back into growth mode. Now if you look at the graph, yes, it's not bad to have grown where we've come from in January '23, but we want to and we expect to do better than we have over the last 3, 4 months. As Baden also mentioned, there are reasons or the main reason for why we haven't been growing much, is the timing of delivery of trucks, that is now -- that bottleneck has now been dealt with. Vehicles are now arriving on a weekly basis. We had good growth in October, and we expect to have good growth going forward. The certificate market has come back to a sensible level. That doesn't necessarily mean that we are back at a level where we expect it will be and over the coming years, but we're now back into territory where we can do sensible and sometimes attractive biomethane sourcing deals. And I think that's reflected in the graph here, where you see the potential or the potential value upside from what we do on the biomethane sourcing and certificate side of things. And also on the station side, we've seen good growth in the past with regards to the EBITDA coming off our stations. Yes, that's been essentially flat quarter-on-quarter. Various reasons for that. We expect that trajectory once again to continue upwards and put us on a good trajectory fairly soon to get to GBP 1 million or more per month. So as such, I wouldn't say we've turned the corner, but we definitely have seen the market conditions become a lot more favorable to what we're doing. We've seen some of the effects of that come in, in the previous quarter, and we would expect that just to be amplified quarter-on-quarter as we go forward. And with that, I will drop the slides and jump into questions and just start at the top here.

Okay. What is the lead time, production capacity of 6x2s? Production capacity, what we've been told is, there's no reason to think that, that should be constrained, meaning -- I'm just doing a hypothetical number here. But every year, there are somewhere between 12,000 to 15,000, 6x2 sold -- diesel 6x2 that is, sorry, sold in the U.K. And there's no reason to believe that a meaningful portion of those into the thousands could not be produced per annum over the coming years. As for lead time, in the past, and I would say, coming out of COVID, we and pretty much everyone in the automated -- or who were relying in the automated sector -- automotive sector, sorry, if you wanted to buy a car 2 years ago, you'd probably have to wait a long, long time unless you took one that was in the dealership's yard. Why? Because there were component shortages. That also affected trucks and truck deliveries and CNG deliveries and diesel deliveries, by the way. So we saw that increase to as much as 9 to 12 months. It's now coming back pre-COVID. What we were seeing was delivery for CNG trucks in the range of 4 to 5 months. And we're now being told that the lead time is coming back down to that, and that's also to 6x2s. So to be conservative, you should be able to get a 6x2 in the range of 4 to 6 months. And production capacity, we don't expect that to be constrained, at least not over the coming years that we're aware of. I did mention an RTFO consultation that came out last week. What is it that we're -- sorry, the question is, what would you like to see in the RTFO consultation? So that came out last Monday, I believe it was. And it's a quite broad consultation. It's asking lots of questions. But I was also asking a general feedback from the industry, what does the industry believe can be done better potentially or what can be done different? And I think one of the elements we're quite vocal and passionate about is that as you will have seen on one of the graphs, it shows the blending obligation going up every year. We believe, and I think industry in general in the U.K. believes, we could be doing more. We could be -- as a country, we could be more ambitious with regards to the blending obligation. There are ample sources of biomethane out there, as an example, we could be doing more for the sector. So that's one of the key messages that we and probably other than an industry will be feeding in to say, you know what, let's be a bit more forward-leaning here. We could see higher blending obligation over the coming years. Question here on, what do you expect RFC prices to be in 2025? Well, that's a crystal-ball-gazing question. RTFC prices are current in the 24p to 25p range. They don't trade every day, but in that range. Yes. I think I'd probably say that what we expect to see from market balance perspective is probably the market balance to continue to recover in the biodiesel sector, potentially tighten a bit more as we come in or as we move through 2025. And it's -- they're not terribly improbable, but RTFC prices might need to react to that and thereby have to push further north. But clearly, no guarantees for us on that one because at the end of the day, RTFC prices are a function of biodiesel prices. And once again, we -- if you are blending biodiesel in Q2 next year, you won't necessarily be buying it today. So the true supply-demand balance for biodiesel isn't yet seen in the market. And therefore, we need to be a bit cautious with regards to comments on that. But we are expecting a healthier market going forward. And thereby, there is a possibility that RTFC prices could react to that. What are the supply-demand dynamics of biomethane in the biomethane market? So I think what that question is getting at is -- you guys as in us. We're sourcing quite a lot of biomethane. We need quite a lot of biomethane. Is there a shortage of this and so on and so forth. I think the answer there is no. At this point in time, there's more biomethane chasing transport demand than there is transport demand, not just in the U.K. but across Europe. So as such, I think we're in a good, we are in a healthy position with regard to supply-demand and not the dynamics. And what we're seeing is this is an environment where it is possible to do sensible biomethane sourcing deals, sensible for us, sensible for the producers. And that will, going forward, be reflected in the margins that we can generate from putting biomethane into transport. You've been listed for 1.5 years. Can you please provide some reflections on that and outlook? Good question. So -- yes. It's been -- we've had 6 quarters probably we've being listed. Those 6 quarters have been pretty tough from a market perspective. We were hit almost immediately on listing with very tough market conditions for biofuels, which reflected the majority of earnings that we, of course, generate, which comes -- or gross margin that we generate, gross profit from certificates. So that clearly has been -- has meant that we've had a challenging 6 quarters, if I count those correctly. Outlook, probably commented a bit on that already. We see a positive outlook as such, much more positive than what we've come through. There's a better supply-demand balance, both in the biomethane market and in the biofuel market in general, which should reflect in RTFC prices going forward. Volume growth will also continue to accelerate. So all in all, quite excited about the quarters ahead. And I think Baden highlighted some of it. Yes, we've come out of the quarter now where we have positive adjusted EBITDA. And that's something that I'm not going to say that quarter was an amazing one with regards to biomethane sourcing and margins, and I'd expect that to increase going forward. Please, can you elaborate on the competitive landscape? I think we comment on this one pretty much every call. What we can say is you need to sort of split that into two answers probably. First one being, what does the competitive landscape look like when it comes to solutions in general to decarbonize? We've got a lot of large corporates as customers, who are on a journey to decarbonize a certain percentage of their fleet by 2025, 2028, 2030, '32, '35, et cetera. The reality is, as of today, they've only really got two options. It's biomethane or its HVO, which is 100% biodiesel. Some choose the biodiesel route, and we'll -- let's see how competitive that will be in the future. And I think the other part here are choosing biomethane. So we're not really seeing much changes in that competitive landscape. It's not like electrification, electric trucks or hydrogen trucks seem to be taking a dominant position anytime soon. I think the other part to the question here is, are we seeing competitors coming in and trying to build and emulate this kind of station network that we build and operate? No, not really, not yet. That doesn't mean we might see competition in the future, and we would welcome competition. I think it would just be a validation of what we do. But that said, that's not something that we are currently seeing in the environment. And even if we did, it would take a couple of years for someone to get the station built and operational because that -- those are the lead times that we're talking about. I think I have answered the next one. How many 6x2 CNG trucks are being produced and available in the U.K. per year? Well, here it's important to understand that as of today, there hasn't been a factory-produced CNG truck available. So the answer there is zero as in how many are produced every year and available into the U.K. We have had some aftermarket conversions done in the U.K. for IVECOs. But what we're really interested in here is getting this on the production line. Scania have now launched, and those are the demos that we're now seeing going forward for a factory-produced 6x2. And we're expecting IVECO also to launch a factory 6x2 CNG truck in the not-too-distant future. So as of today, we are -- we have to be heavily constrained by the amount of 6x2s available, which is why we're so excited by the opportunity when actually these do become available and now are becoming available to order. And as such, we aren't aware and we haven't been told that there will be any production constraints here. So once again, we should be able to satisfy the demand that is coming. With the expansion in network, how do you who -- sorry, I'll jumped over a question here. Apologies for that. Given the current and anticipated demand for RTFCs, do you look to hedge against any pricing volatility? So there's only so far forward you can sell RTFCs. As of today, RTFCs sell in an annualized vintage, meaning calendar annualized vintage. So currently, you can still generate RTFCs for 2024 obligation year. We are pretty much done doing that or have pretty much sold those. But for 2025, you can now sell RTFC that can be delivered throughout the calendar year 2025 and even be delivered into '26. And then as we get into 2025, 2026 will start to trade. So it's not possible today to sell RTFCs for 2026 vintage. When they do become available, we are -- will be one of the first to start hedging and start to sell 2026. So typically, what you can say is on a rolling basis, we have the ability to sell forward RTFCs 12 to 18 months, but nothing beyond that. But yes, we do that, and that is an active part of our strategy. With the expansion in network, how do you look to match this with your fuel supply side you buy in store? I presume this is related to biomethane. So the beauty here is we can use the natural gas pipeline grid to supply to our stations. And as such, we use a natural gas pipeline grid also as storage if you want for biomethane because we don't have to match it on a day basis or a week basis, we have an extended period of time throughout the year where we can match our dispensing of gas into vehicles, into customer vehicles with the sourcing of biomethane. So no, we do not buy in store. That doesn't mean that we won't necessarily enter into biomethane supply contract, which might -- just using an example here, that might start supplying us in 1 year's time or as we mentioned with the Danish deal in 2027, so that we know and have certainty on what that commercial and pricing deal looks like. But we won't be storing the volume if we are buying spot volume today, as an example, and then storing that for 6 months. That -- for that, we can use the pipeline grid. What's the right balance with high RTFC biomethane prices and ensuring a better cost outcome versus diesel? So what I think that question is getting at is -- here, you need to remember that our customers aren't necessarily exposed to the cost of biomethane as such. The pricing formulas we have with our customers are based on the gas prices in the grid. So as such, they are insulated, if you want, against high biomethane prices or low biomethane prices. That doesn't mean it will always be like that in the future. There might be other commercial models that will emerge. But as of today, there is a good balance between the gas price in the grid and diesel and as such, providing a good so-called total cost of ownership case for our customers. You mentioned a record number of trials and demonstration requests. How are these sourced and converted to customers? So we have a sales team that of course, are outward reaching, trying to break into fleets that we don't have a relationship with today. You have to remember here that there are literally thousands of fleets in the U.K., and we today have 150 or -- no, 160-something, I think it is, fleet signed up, all right. So we've got a very, very long way to go. But the majority of new customer interest currently is inward coming. So it's incoming, not necessarily us going out. Why? Because this is now becoming a business-as-usual fuel, it's a business-as-usual concept. And of course, transport managers move around from fleet to fleet. So as such, we have more inwards coming than outward going. We also work very closely, of course, with the truck manufacturers, both their central offices in the U.K., but also the dealerships they've got in the U.K. So it's a combination here of work that we do in educating and working with fleets to convince them to come onboard, but is also in close collaboration with the truck manufacturers and whether that is their central office in the U.K. or their dealerships around the U.K. And that was it on the Q&A.

Fantastic. You have indeed covered all the questions, thank you for those. Any further questions that do come through, of course, we'll make them available to the team. We'll publish those responses where appropriate to do so. Just before redirecting investors to provide their feedback to you, which is very important to the team, Philip, can I just ask you for a few closing comments.

Thank you. Once again, I'd just like to thank you all for taking the time today and for those of you watching this on -- catch up later on, thank you for showing the interest in what we do. Some excellent questions in there. We seem to be getting more and more of them every time, which is also good. And I think encouraging that the message is getting through, at least slowly, but surely. We are pleased with the results that we've just presented, but we're probably even more excited about what we've got in store over the coming quarters. And I think that we've finally now got some tailwinds and not just headwinds here. And that, yes, as such, looking forward to coming back here in February or March to provide a further update. So thank you once again for tuning in, and see you on next one.

Fantastic. Philip and Baden, thanks again for updating investors today. Could I please ask investors not to close the session to be automatically redirected to provide your feedback in order the team can better understand your views and expectations? This will only take a few moments to complete and I know is greatly valued by the company. On behalf of the management team of ReFuels N.V, we'd like to thank you for attending today's presentation, and good morning to you all.

Thank you.