Rocket Companies, Inc. (RKT) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

All right. Great. We're going to get started. Up next and joining us for the first time, we are excited to have the Rocket Companies. Rocket has developed an outstanding platform that has allowed it to position itself as the premier player in several end markets through its best-of-breed technology and its industry-leading brand. Additionally, it's developed an ecosystem that is unmatched across the industry and should position it well for continued market share gains across its businesses for the coming years. Joining us today from Rocket is Vice Chairman and CEO, Jay Farner. Today's presentation is going to be a fireside chat. So Jay, maybe just to kick it off, starting big picture. 2021 was a very successful year for Rocket, resulting in record originations and also to continue to build some of your higher growth businesses. Can you maybe just talk about how you think the business is positioned to succeed into 2022?

Absolutely. Great being here, good to start seeing people in person. So our business was -- had an amazing 2021. As you know, I think we did $330 billion or so in closed loan volume on the mortgage side in 2020, which was more than double what we had done the year prior, and we exceeded that -- we'll exceed that number this year. I think that goes to kind of speak to the scale of our business and how quickly it can pivot. But while we were setting yet another record in mortgage, we were continuing to invest in things that are really important to the lifetime value of our clients. And so think about our auto business, which will nearly double from '20 to '21 in units sold. Think about our real estate business. It is run rating now for north of $10 billion worth of real estate transactions. That, of course, feeds our mortgage business, our title business, our appraisal business. But then there's these other exciting announcements that we've made. We're putting solar panels on homes, right? We're refinancing solar loans. We're doing solar loans. We announced we'd be in that business, and we've already got that up and running. And that market is red hot and only going to continue to grow. We announced the fact that we're working on not only the sales of autos, but kind of widening that offering and thinking about things we can leverage with our Rocket loans technology, so possibly auto financing and those sorts of things. So the investment in technology to continue the growth of Rocket while we were so profitable in '20 and '21 is where our team has been working. And it's important because we can't control where interest rates will go, but we can make sure that all of our channels are positioned to grow and probably the most significant for people listening here is the growth of our mortgage distribution, because as you think about $2 trillion in purchase volume, which is what they're forecasting for 2022, you've got to be able to reach those consumers. And so we've grown out our partner network. We've continued to invest in our retail network, in particular the purchase side. We just announced the partnership with Salesforce to embed our product into banks and credit unions. Really, our mission is to make sure that, that mortgage platform, that mortgage technology, sits anywhere and everywhere that a transaction may occur. And all that hard work was done in '21 as well. So it positions us to continue to grow. We've announced going north of 10% market share in 2022. And that's just -- that's years of hard work. You're not going to just wake up one morning in the side you're getting into these spaces. You've got to be doing this year in and year out. And so we'll benefit from that in '22.

So lots of good stuff in there, Jay, and maybe we could dig into some of them. So when the company went public, you laid out some long-term goals about getting to certain market share achievements, you just referenced 10% for 2022. Can you maybe just talk about how you're progressing on all of your goals? What are some of the key drivers? And maybe help us understand like some of the puts and takes of the environment that we're looking at just obviously, there's a potential for higher interest rates, where we also have record home equity, competitive home buying markets, maybe contextualize all that and what it means for Rocket?

Yes. So we've talked about 10% in 2022. I know we talked about achieving the ultimate goal of 25%. Remember, for us, it's not purely based on the origination. It's the lifetime value of that client, one of the largest servicers in the country. I think we're seeing at over 2.5 million consumers that make their mortgage payments to us. We've got a 90-plus percent retention rate. And so when you think about the $1 billion or so we spend in brands, the client service that we deliver, every time we grow that origination, we add clients or consumers to our platform that we can then monetize with these other services that we're bringing on. And I think 2022 is going to present an opportunity as we watch what's happening to fintechs and so forth to find strategic acquisitions, partnerships to continue to add to that platform, to bring other services to our clients where we can monetize and have revenue that's not interest rate sensitive. And you brought up an important point. I think we're like $24 trillion in real estate equity now. It's gone up substantially in the last 12 to 24 months. Somewhere close to 60% of all our origination volume is not rate sensitive. And this is a new one that my IR team was just telling me about if we go kind of pre-pandemic. So back before 2020, even today, more clients than ever before are what we call in the money. So they could benefit from a rate and term refinance. So all very exciting things, and that's how you get to a $3 trillion or $3.5 trillion or $4 trillion or whatever it will be 2022 market. Here's what's more important. You have to have profitability to lean in and spend into that market. The business will be there. It's just not going to come walking through your doorstep. You've got to go actively out and seek it. To do that, you got to spend marketing dollar. You got to continue to invest in technology. And that's what's so critical about the platform that we've built is it's profitable. Our servicing book is going to throw off $1.3 billion in cash. So we have the resources to go out and spend and grab market share when others are reporting the fact that they're not earning money right now. And as rates rise, that will become even more challenging for them, we deploy those resources. We grab the market share, and we know that's not just the origination revenue we're earning this time around, but it's that lifetime value that we continue to add to our platform.

Jay, maybe sticking with the discussion on volumes before we get into some of the other things in a bit. But you set the goal to be the #1 retail purchase mortgage originator in the U.S. by '23. Can you maybe just talk about -- and you alluded to a potential for a $2 trillion market. Can you maybe just talk about the progress you're making towards the goal. And maybe just help us understand what are the contributing factors? How much is due to some secular shifts towards the DTC business, which you guys are obviously the market leader versus share gains? Ingraining yourself with retailers and any other factors?

Yes. So that's right. We have talked for years about our ability to pivot and go where the production is. And so we typically talk not really purchasing refi. We talk rate sensitive and not rate sensitive because they'll be equal, if not greater, opportunity, probably equal opportunity when you think about equity and cash out, which is I think we're the dominant player there. We probably control 15%, 16%, 17% of the cash out market right now. And our DTC marketing ability allows us to really lean into that market. We've got our 2.5 million clients in servicing. We're making MSR acquisitions. So I don't want to discount the impact that cash out will have, our purchase also very, very important. And a really important trend that was accelerated with the pandemic is the fact that consumers are taking control of the purchase transaction. They're not reliant on a third party to steer them to where they're going to be going for a mortgage. And so that benefits us greatly. You'll see us positioning our marketing to attract more of a purchase buyer. You'll see us continue to roll out unique products like our overnight underwrite, our verified approval to make sure we're bringing value to the real estate agent and to the consumer. But you can also see us continue to grow on our partnership channels, possibly, hopefully, with your firm. But other firms like Morgan Stanley, Charles Schwab, these great partnerships allow us to be at the decision point as someone buys a home because they call up their financial adviser, they've got to liquidate some funds. Boom! We're there. as we license real estate agents to originate mortgage, we're right there at that point. We've got 55,000 agents who are referring business to us through our Agent Insight portal, and that will continue to grow as we market to those agents. We've got our ability to reach through our broker network, which I think our wallet share with our brokers was 35% or 36% in the spring. We're now north of 50% wallet share as we go into Q4. So bringing great product and great technology to our mortgage broker partners, allows them to commit more to us, gives us the ability to grab that purchase. So that's been our strategy. If you only have 1 channel to grow, it's going to be more challenging. As we add all of these and build out all of these channels, we really can be at the point of sale, which is critical in the purchase transaction. And the last thing I mentioned is about Rocket Homes, right? We've got millions of people visiting the website, looking at MLS listings. We've got our thousands of real estate agents in the field that are working with clients because we trust them, we know they'll provide a great experience. We've got our centralized real estate portal that we're building out, so we can service clients at a lower fee. And we've got this opportunity to really lean into ForSaleByOwner.com. And if you study the current purchase market, you could make an argument that 15% or 20% of all transactions should be for sale by owner transactions. And no one has really gone out and leveraged that and provided a seamless experience. We've been working incredibly hard building technology that allows people who have a home. I mean when you put your home on the market and sell it in a day or 2 days, for sale by owner may be appropriate path for you to choose, and we want to bring that to our clients. So all of those things are going to let us achieve that goal that we laid out, which is being the #1 purchase retail lender here in the country.

And you'd save 6% along the way.

You would.

So Jay, you talked a couple of times about the cash-out refi product. And I think one of the things that's interesting as I've gotten to know the company more is just people tend to think about it in terms of purchase versus refi. But in reality, there's a lot more sub pockets of the business, and it's a lot more diversified under the hood than I think people appreciate. And maybe you could just talk about how you've made cash-out refi a bigger part of the overall business and maybe how you're leveraging data to when you cited 15%, 17%, 18% market share, which is incredibly impressive. How are you guys generating that kind of market share in that product?

Yes. So we benefit from the fact that we've got hundreds of data scientists and the more we engage with our client base, whether they choose to do a transaction today or not. I think this is really important. In a lot of other kind of retail spaces people have understood that the marketing dollars spent today has value if you can engage with consumer even if it doesn't translate to direct transactional revenue in that moment. In the mortgage space, it's never kind of been the thought. The thought is I got to spend the money. I got to reap that benefit immediately. But as we build out more engagement tools, and we have, whether it's SMS, text or e-mail or our call centers, our websites. And as we add these different auto homes, loans, solar, we're working on some other projects now, we can confidently invest that marketing dollar and know that we're going to realize a return and be okay if that return is extended. And so I think that changes our strategy when it comes to advertising. Now your question about cash out refinance. When you have this deep data, when you start learning about every household in America, when you start understanding their spending habits, when you start understanding their credit scores, you can start targeting your marketing with specific messaging that really relates to them. And that's our long-term mission. Of course, we spend $1 billion, and that's great. Our brand is very well recognized. But really, every consumer should come in our funnel. They should be able to think about their finances, and we should be able to target a message when appropriate based on increased equity in their area, based on interest rate change. Unfortunately, 51% of the population is going to go through a divorce at some point in time. All of these things demand that someone refinance their home. And it's that targeted marketing that we continue to build out that will be a game changer for us because it brings down our cost to acquire. But the other important thing it does when you have that rich data, I'm going to kind of just paint a picture here. If I'm processing a loan and there's 100 data points in that file, I have to have to process that loan. Think about the work attached to those data points. If I already got this data. And now for us, there are only 30 or 40 data points that have to be collected. We streamline the processing, we drive down the cost. Not only is the cost to acquire dropping, the cost to manufacturers’ dropping. And then it's a virtuous cycle for us because we're able to spend more to go bring more consumers in because our profit margin on those loans is so much better than our competition. So all of those things working together is what's really leading for -- giving us the ability to lean to that cash out. And as I've said, so many other marketing initiatives as well.

I wanted to ask sort of a big picture question, maybe for some of the people in the audience who just aren't as familiar with the story. But can you maybe just talk about -- I mean, there's obviously become a lot of people who play in the mortgage space that have become public over the last few years. And I don't think the market fully appreciates how to really differentiate across them. And can you maybe just talk about how and why you're different from peers? And or other players in the market, I should say. And maybe just thinking about the environment, how do you see others in the market faring when we get into an environment like this where conditions become more challenging, whether it's in a certain channel or it's cyclically becoming more challenging?

Yes. So one of the things that we've always thought about is how do you take out the volatility in the mortgage space. You can't do it completely. And as long as you can build a floor, you want the volatility on the high side because every time there's an opportunity to -- if you can go from closing $20 billion to $40 billion, which we did here in the early stages of the pandemic to show the scalability of our business, you want that volatility on the high side, right? But how do you take out the volatility? You do it by having multiple reaches or multiple distribution channels into anywhere and everyone that someone gets -– [ so my ] marketing team. I want everyone in America to wake up and say, "I have to go to Rocket Mortgage today." We have to be so compelling with our offer that they can't think about going anywhere else. I want to give them every vehicle to achieve that, whether it's through their trusted financial partner, whether it's through a trusted broker, whether it's through a real estate agent, whether it's direct to us. And so that -- no one else has that reach. That's number one. The servicing book. And the retention on that servicing book. I don't know of another player that has that. So that reoccurring revenue that fuels our machine, I don't see anyone is having that. But here's the biggest one. I don't think you're going to hear any of our competitors talk about the number of engagements they have. To me, that's almost a better measure than closings. As we think about the platform, as we think about multiple ways to generate revenue over time, I'm more interested in the number of engagements we have daily with consumers than I am for a folder or -- that's an application as we call it, or a closed loan. It's nice. It allows us to print the revenue. But really what you want is you want millions of people a month engaging with you in some way, shape or form, having a great experience, even if they don't buy anything because you know you're going to bring them back. And that's what Amazon has achieved kind of on the consumer goods side, but no one has achieved that on the financial services real estate side, and that's the mission of Rocket. And again, I think that -- if I was to sit in some people who do maybe wholesale or correspondent lending or -- you're not going to hear them talk about that. They're going to talk about how many loans they are going to close next quarter.

Interesting. Speaking of wholesale or correspondent. You guys have done a nice job with solid volumes in the partner network once again this quarter. And that market has obviously become very competitive from both a volume and obviously from a price perspective. Can you maybe just talk about how you think you're positioned strategically in the wholesale market? You obviously gave some stats about over 50% wallet share, which is impressive. And how do you think about the trade-off between higher volumes versus the lower price that the market is currently getting in that market right now?

If we faced a dilemma where we had manufacturing capacity issues, then that would be a trade-off you'd have to contemplate. But we're very fortunate in the sense that we have that scale. And so as we layer on different types of revenue, even with compressed market -- for partnership for us, it's a variety of things. We've got a lot of partner business that has margin very similar to retail. But in the wholesale business specifically, even if that margin compresses, for us, it's added revenue on this bigger base that I just talked about. So it's still profitable. If that's your only slice of revenue, and you've got all these costs you've got to cover, then reducing expenses becomes your play. And when we see an opportunity to grow, I think you want a mindset of growing revenue, not reducing expenses. And so that's nothing against people who focus on wholesale, but I think a better, more stable business model is to have multiple channels. And really for us, look at Cyber Monday. We were out there with our Cyber Monday offer. We had some of the largest production days we've had this quarter in Friday and Cyber Monday and Tuesday. Why? Because we have this direct-to-consumer channel. We can quickly create creative. We can go on the airwaves. We can go digital, we can drive volume, we can monetize. I'm not sure that mortgage brokers across America were actively engaged in driving business on Black Friday or Cyber Monday. They may have been out shopping, right? You don't have the direct control over driving those originations. So the way we think about the business, it's not a quarter or a year, it's a day, it's an hour. I mean we track that -- we're tracking volume by the minute. You want to make sure your funnel is always filling up with applications. You don't want to miss out on a Friday or Monday, just gave away 5% of the production days in a month. So that DTC channel really helps us take advantage of things when others can't.

Maybe to just shift gears for a minute and talk about margins. We've obviously, as we talked about, we've seen a lot of compression in the wholesale market. But the DTC market has remained in line to better than historical levels. And can you maybe just talk about the dynamics that contribute to changes in margins? And if we do enter a rising rate environment, how do you think about the trade-off between margins and volume, if any?

Well, we're always kind of watching and studying the conversion rates based on margin. That's a calculation that you've got to understand, again, on like an hourly basis, you can't make decisions here once a month or once a week. And what we find is that there's, of course, some opportunity based on the specific type of channel you drive lead flow into where you can be more competitive on rate and drive up conversion. But that band is actually quite tight. And I think sometimes people make the mistake of not understanding their conversion metrics. And so they immediately just go to cutting margin. We've got the luxury of having that understanding and so not having to do it. And so as you referenced, I think Julie Booth, our CFO, provided some guidance that we're going to be between like 265 and 285, 29 as we get into this quarter. And as you referenced, that's probably industry best, but that feels right based on where we've been for years and that -- and regardless of interest rate movement, our ability to kind of toggle and watch conversion means that we make surgical decisions, we don't make wholesale decisions that can harm your margin otherwise.

Maybe to stick with the partner channel and you referenced earlier in your remarks, the partnership with Salesforce, which sounds like a very interesting and exciting partnership through their financial services cloud to service and mortgage-as-a-service for third-party financial institutions and credit unions. And I think on the earnings call, you talked about something like $1 trillion of mortgages go through that complex. And just curious, how do you think about share in that over time from those institutions? And do the economics at all differ from other parts of your business?

And the nice thing about this channel for us is that we've got great technology that the LOs, loan officers, in those banks and credit unions want to use. We've got a brand that they want to partner with. A lot of times in years past, we would watch white labeling occur. And my question would always be, why don't you want a brand sitting next to yours, Morgan Stanley and Charles Schwab, et cetera. And so our mission has been to build a brand, and we've achieved this, where our NPS scores are equal to or better than the people that we partner with. That means they want our brands sitting right there next to their brand because it brings credibility, it brings certainty to their consumer. That's exactly what's happening here by putting Rocket and make it available through the Salesforce Financial Services Cloud, they have access to this technology and this brand that their consumers trust. So we're empowering these loan officers to be better at their job, leveraging our technology. And this opens up, as you said, 1/3 -- 25%, 30% of the mortgage market to us. And if we were on this journey by ourselves, we'd have to figure out how to API into all these different institutions, and we wouldn't have access to the incredible Salesforce sales force. This is one of the things that they're great at, right? They're great at selling their software into these banks and credit unions, we've now given them another strong value add to their software, but they're actually now out there selling for us. And so that's a huge benefit as well, and I really can't think of a competitor that could step in, provide the same level of experience, service, brand. And so I think we're really uniquely positioned yet again to grab tremendous market share here. And I know that -- I was talking to Mark Benioff, his team is very excited as they go out on their cycles to sell the software to be able to talk about bringing this service to these banks and credit unions.

That's sounds great. And I guess one of the things you referenced earlier was looking for other potential partnerships and companies like my own, hopefully I get a preferred rate if that were to happen. And when I think about some of the partnerships that you've done, you've obviously done with E*TRADE, Schwab, State Farm and others in the past. And maybe as you survey the landscape, what does the opportunity set look like for further partnerships? And maybe what criteria is it that you look for when you -- whether or not you choose to pursue a partnership?

Yes. So again, I think taking the mindset that this platform should be able to help service anybody and everybody who needs a mortgage. That really opens the door for any insurance company, any financial services company to partner with us. Look at the Credit Karma relationship that we've got with Intuit. That's kind of -- we've got the list, and it's pages long of partners that would be available to us. But strategically, there's a few things that we have to have. Number one, brand is important. So we've invested so much in our brand. We've got to partner with people that have equal weight. We've got to be cautious not to just throw our services everywhere and hurt the brand that we've spent so much time building. Number 2 is that we've got to find somebody, somebody who's got the ability to market, to reach their consumer, to make them aware of the services that we offer. And then number three, it's great to partner with someone who also cares deeply about technology, because we're even better when we can harness the power of our cloud force. Our human beings were licensed to help people in all 50 states, but also the technology, the APIs that we'll connect into because for a consumer, if they've already given all their data and information, let's say, to a financial institution, they don't want to have to do that again. And so we should be a lift 60%, 70%, 80% of that data, move it into the mortgage application and give them -- what we're driving towards with Rocket Logic is a point-of-sale decision, right? Years ago, we launched Push Button Get Mortgage, and that's what we've been working on ever since. Right when you say, "I want to do that, it makes sense." We should be able to tell you with certainty that you're approved. And so partners that have that data and can move that data so we can deliver that experience, that's top of the list. Not that we won't work with others, but If we're recollecting all of that data again, we're not really bringing great value to the consumer the way that we should.

So I think you'll be excited to talk about this one. So I've heard you and other members of the team comment in the past that you believe the stock is undervalued. And you even went as far to share some math in the presentation last week, which, by the way, I thought was very impressive.

My math skills...

Your math skills and the calculus behind it. But as you go out at conferences like this and meet with investors and analysts, before we talk about capital return and capital allocation, what do you think remains the misunderstood part about the story? And what do you want investors to have greater awareness of?

Well, I think -- and you asked a few questions that kind of highlight this. I think that traditionally, mortgage -- well, first of all, there have not been a lot of mortgage lenders that have been public. So number one, just getting -- when I say MSR or mortgage servicing rights, I still talk to a lot of analysts and investors who aren't even exactly certain what that means. So there's an educational component to it. But then even if someone is familiar with mortgage, they've never seen anything like us. And we've touched or spent the last 30 minutes discussing this, all the different distribution channels we have to reach the consumer. The servicing book, the retention, the mindset that we have of getting a return on our marketing dollar and our marketing skill that a lot of, I think, mortgage companies in the past haven't had. And so they've got to kind of get their mind around, it's not a cyclical business that's driven purely by interest rate increase or decrease. It's a business that can be -- because even in a -- let's look at the way that home values have increased. I've read some, I think maybe the high end is like $4 trillion is what I've seen as a forecast for 2022. But let's say it's the lowest forecast at $2.5 trillion, right? We've already discussed the fact that many folks won't be able to survive in that market. That's $2.5 trillion. We're in this space where even in tough times, if you have the reach, if you have the marketing, if you have the technology, there's plenty of business out there. And so people getting their mindset around the fact that people always need to transact. There's always cash out, purchase market is strong and not having kind of this fear that, boy, somebody said to me years ago, people who don't know the mortgage business kind of think of it as like an ice cream shop. If it's really hot out, people sell a ton of ice cream. If it's really cold, people don't buy any. But not the way that we do it. And our growth over years have demonstrated our ability to continue to grow in any market. And so we've got to do that. But then the last thing is demonstrate to folks how we're continuing to build what we're calling non-origination revenue. So certainly, there's a portion of our revenue that we generate through the sale of a mortgage. But there's also a portion -- I referenced $1.3 billion in cash coming off servicing. That comes off no matter what. Oh, by the way, if rates rise, it becomes more valuable. If rates fall, we had a 90% retention rate, it's incredibly valuable. That's consistent revenue for us, as we add home revenue, as we add auto revenue, as we add additional engagement platforms that have reoccurring revenue. We're going to be able to show investors, yes, you've got this high upside of origination revenue. But you've also got all this other consistent revenue that you can think about year in and year out. And as we tell that story, I'm very hopeful that we'll start seeing our company trade more in the fintech multiple that we believe it deserves. And to your point, until it doesn't achieve that, we're happy to buy the stock back.

Sure. And maybe just on that point, it sounds like you've more recently been more aggressive in buying back stock. And maybe talk a little bit about your capital return priorities. And maybe more broadly, like how do you weigh buying back shares on the stock that you feel is undervalued relative to special dividends? And also, how do you feel about buying back stock relative to decreasing the float, which some in the industry have said that maybe that could be a contributing factor to the way the shares have performed.

Yes. So -- and Julie always reminds me of this to point this out. We're always plowing capital back into our business, we touch -- we spend a lot of time talking about this. So that's our first priority to continue to separate from our competition. And years like 2022 when profits are down, we'll have even more opportunity to separate with that investment. The price that the stock is trading at and you said the math, but you back off the cash, you can back off the MSR value, you can make an argument that we're at a 7 malls or something like that. We believe the stock is significantly undervalued. And so one of the best uses of our capital is, I think I said $150 million or $160 million, I think we're already up to $185 million in the last 4 or 5 days since I reported that last number. So we're actively buying. And we have plenty of cash where we can still contemplate doing a special dividend as well. And that's the beauty of our business. So we're on a mission here to build something incredibly special. We think what we've got so far is something the world has never seen before, but we're just kind of in inning 3 of this journey. And so if we have this great flexibility to make the investments, possibly make acquisitions, buy the stock back and do a dividend. I mean, we'll consider all of those things. And to your point about the float, we watch how many shares we're trading on a daily basis. We talk to smart people like you. We think there's still tens of millions of shares we could buy back and still have plenty of float out there.

Sure. So you mentioned strategic partners, strategic M&A a couple of times. And the question I wanted to ask is when you think about strategic acquisitions, what is it that you look for in a partner? You talked earlier about things like brand alike? And what are some of the areas you can either look to maybe to move up the funnel in mortgage or to vertically integrate across the entire platform. What are the -- what's the prioritization set out there?

Yes. So one of the things that we have the opportunity to leverage is the incredible marketing that we already do. And so I used to use an analogy, like we're buying this fish, and we're just taking 1 piece of the fillet. But there's so much else left, let's harvest all of that opportunity. And so we don't have to spend more marketing dollars to do that. And that's why we're adding on these additional services that bring real value to our clients that are hard, complicated. We typically pick things that are challenging that we think we can do better than others. So the last piece of that puzzle is when you engage with the consumer and they want to share important financial data with you. But at this moment in time, none of those fulfillment, car, home, mortgage, personal loan, debt consolidation loan, does it make sense? How do you continue to bring value to that consumer so they stay engaged? Because once we spend that $1 billion, I'm happy to spend it again for the new consumers, I don't want to keep spending it for the 1 I've already talked to. And so that's really where our focus is, what are the other tools we can build, buy, et cetera, that top of the funnel engagement layer. That's why we built out the MLS network that we have. It sends a lot of triggering information to us about when people are buying homes. It provides real value because our clients love going back over and over again to the app. But there's still other great financial services that we can layer in at the top of the funnel to keep those clients engaged, grab that data and so now we've got really rich data, engage clients, maybe providing other financial services that are easier lift to them until they're ready for these additional kind of more complicated transaction at the bottom of our funnel. And so that's -- when I think about mergers or acquisitions, that's where my mind goes.

We got about 1.5 minutes left here, and I wanted to make sure we were able to ask a question on some of the newer growth-oriented businesses, Rocket Auto, Rocket Homes. These have been getting a lot more airtime recently, just given the trajectory of growth that they're seeing. And while mortgage origination and servicing are likely to be the dominant parts of your revenue stream for the foreseeable future, where do you think these fit in, in terms of growth over the next 3 to 5 years?

Yes. So the highly fragmented areas have been where our success has occurred. And so that's why we lean so hard into auto. There's an interesting shift occurring. We all are aware of this in auto, where these very large players are putting pressure on these dealer groups. And so they're maybe not experts at digital marketing, online sales. And so that's why we've spent our time leaning in there. So how can we not only support the large players in the auto space, especially used today, but we'll think about broadening that. But how can we take our services and offer those? We've got 400 dealers, I believe, signed up now to our auto network. How can we provide those services to the smaller dealer who's saying, how can I survive against a Carvana, CarMax, et cetera? Well, with our reach, with our brand, with our sales, we give them the ability to do that, and we bring a more robust inventory to our consumer, our client. And so that business has still got a long way to go through that consolidation, and we'll be right there. So I see that business as a huge business. I think we're maybe top -- we're approaching top 10 there. But between 10 and 1, there's a big -- and so we can -- there's a lot of room there and then real estate. I mean even at the $10 billion run rate, I think that puts us in the top 20. And when you think about how fragmented real estate is, our ability to grab market share there is substantial as well. So those businesses are high-growth businesses, and they will continue to grow rapidly.

Great. Well, unfortunately, we're out of time, but please join me in thanking Jay.