Sims Limited (SGM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

I would like to welcome you all here in the room and the ones online. Just a quick reminder that the presentation or the slides that you will see here today will be available on our website and have been launched with the ASX. I'll begin today by acknowledging the Yuggera people, traditional custodians of the land on which we gather today and pay my respects to their elders, past and present. I extend that respect to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Peoples here today. So let's start with agenda -- the agenda and what we have prepared for you today. So Alistair will be the first speaker of the day, will give us an overview of the strategy. We will then move on. So Alistair our CEO. I think you all know him. Then we'll move on to the Sims Resource Renewal. We'll have Christine Baker. Christine is our General Manager for the Sims Resource Renewal and she will provide an overview of the strategy for the business. We will then go outside and do the tour to the demonstration plan of the demonstration plant. Just for the ones online to bear in mind that we won't hear or see anything at that point. It will effectively be offline for 1 hour and 15 minutes approximately. We will then return to the room and people online will be able to hear us and see us again, and we will cover the ANZ's business, the ANZ Metal business. We'll have Rod Bonnette, our Chief Commercial Officer. Giving us an overview of the fundamentals for the ANZ Metal business. We will then hear from David Burrows, our Chief Operating Officer for the ANZ business, and he will give us some insight into the plans for the Pinkenba side, our newest site. After that, we will have Q&A. And Alistair will wrap up for today, which will be -- will mark the end of the presentations for people attending the session online. For the ones here in the room, we will break out for lunch. And after lunch, we'll have a bus waiting for us outside which will take us to the Pinkenba site. And after the tour of the Pinkenba site, if you want to return to the airports, you can just stay on the bus and the bus will drop you off at the airport. So I hope you enjoy what we have prepared for you today. And I look forward to speak to you during the breaks and hear your thoughts about what's going to be discussed here today. Alistair?

Thank you. All right. Good afternoon, good morning to those around the world and talking to you here today. Rocklea is obviously one of our key sites here in Australian operations. So it's about time that we've actually had all of you, and we've spoken to you a lot about some resource renewals. So it's going to be great being able to take you around today. Sims' purpose is obviously a very focused led strategy by design. We chose to go down a purpose route with a clear expression of being able to create a very clear pathway for us in our decision-making processes, be that M&A, but the cultural aspect but also our values. So the purpose narrative is really embedded in this organization now. It helps us in terms of decision-making as a lens when we choose which M&A targets or what we want to acquire, there needs to be some fundamentals that we actually lived by. The actual values that we live to in this organization, absolutely key. The communities that we operate in, again, also come from those values and the behaviors that we actually display as a management team. So a really well-led purpose organization and the employee feedback that I've had, the recruiting folks that have joined us have all given us good and positive feedback around that approach. I want to have a look at our business at the moment in terms of the tailwinds. We have a look at the environmental concerns that we've seen across the world. Right across the globe, we've actually seen a lot of concerns from our customers and the steel companies coming back to us asking us to work with them in terms of reducing CO2 emissions that they are undertaking. So that journey is obviously underway. The environmental compliance aspect, when we have a look at some of our USA businesses, when you look at other competitors that we've had, that environmental compliance aspect is growing right across the globe. The demand for recycled copper and aluminum. I think all of you in this room are very familiar with that trend, be it electrification, but that demand has not diminished, and as a matter of fact, it's starting to pick up even further. I think one of the aspects of today's discussion is also the higher landfill costs that we've seen both here in Australia and across the globe. And that obviously has not abated, and we see that trend continue. The electrification and any transition is obviously driving copper and aluminum prices higher. I mean if you go back and you look at 2018, 2019, copper and aluminum prices, we're pretty much back to that level after COVID. And when you have a look for the next 2, 3 years, copper definitely over 9,000 and 2,300 for aluminum. So those trends are continuing unabated. The high-quality metal aspect, that has been a journey over the last 2, 3 years. We've seen different parts of the globe really raising that standard. China, as an example, is one of the last about 2, 3 years ago that really set a quality standard that actually copper and aluminum that enter China has to meet a certain qualification and standard, and that has actually been vetted and managed quite carefully. So that continued drive for quality metals. We're now seeing that flow through our ferrous business as well. Our steel companies are wanting a high-quality shred material. And that obviously needs some technology on our part, which I'll talk about. The increased demand for recycled metal. I think we've seen the journey of electric arc furnaces on a global basis, particularly in the U.S.A. in the last couple of years. We've seen over 25 million tonnes start to come into the market at different phases. So that demand for recycled metal be it ferrous, but also copper and aluminum has continued to grow. The Cloud Services, SLS division, we've seen the actual services that have been requested growing. Actual data centers have grown a lot more than what we actually anticipated and obviously driven through the COVID period quite significantly. When we have a look at Sims and the capability, Sims brings to this table to actually manage those market tailwinds. One of the key aspects for us is our in-house engineering team. The last big facilities that we've built here in Australia, Kwinana, the shredder off-line recovery plants, et cetera. That was all done by an in-house engineering team. Growth in Chicago in terms of the new technology there as well as in Claremont, the zorba separation plants, the twitch plants that has all been designed and put together by our in-house engineering team. It's really key for us because that actually gives us a very quick start when we know what we want to do. Best-in-class shredding and nonferrous metal separation, the zorba separation plants and the twitch plants that we've been able to implement, we've actually been able to lead the market in those changes. I think one of the other key aspects for us is the operate best-in-class assets at scale. And that's key for us, is being able to demonstrate that we are thinking long term that we are actually operating out of facilities that have long-term viability, both from domestic as well as export capabilities using the rivers that we can. And hence, one of the visits today will be at Pinkenba, which is a really strategic asset for us. Part of this journey obviously is understanding the environment that we're in. And that environment, as you all well know, has been changing quite radically. When we have a look at some of these aspects and this form part of the presentation that I gave to you many years ago, around the risks that our businesses are taking and the trends in the globe. So this is just a little bit of an update on that. When we have a look at the social aspects, community activism has increased. We've seen that, I think we've had discussions around the world where we've seen a lot more competition that's come into the market, but actually, the actual activism that takes place in communities has actually stopped some of the actual technologies that I have wanted to start up, but also in terms of running an operation that is in our neighborhood who actually does not want that technology or that environment with a company in it. And we've seen that play out and that activism is a really key aspect for us. So when we take this journey forward in Pinkenba as an example, we need to be very aware that the communities that we operate in today have actually got a lot more so than they used to in the many years and rightfully so. Climate change, I think that urgency and the commitment that we're seeing across companies, governments continues and accelerated. Inflation, generational high. I think we're all very aware of the inflationary aspects of our business over the past 12 months, and that obviously is a key aspect for us in just managing the actual costs. Volatile commodity prices, supply chain constraints. I think we've seen quite a whip swing over the last 2, 3 years, particularly during the COVID period, and that obviously went through literally every part of our business from a supply point of view. Technological, I think we've seen the discussions with car manufacturing companies have now started to increase. We've been engaged in talking to a lot of international global companies around cars, and them understanding what the actual full recycle of a vehicle means. And I'm not talking about the metal components. I'm talking about the plastic components as well now. And hence, one of our reasons for being here today is that full circularity is an actual key issue for a lot of these large global car manufacturers if they're going to meet their customers' expectations. Digitization, cloud storage solutions unabated. Artificial intelligence, it's already part of life in a number of actual -- these cloud companies that we're talking to, they're actually quite far advanced in that development. I think we're all very aware of the Ukraine issue with Russia. That has obviously given an elevated risk in that area, and I think we saw the result of literally from day 1 to 90 days after the impact of that war. And that obviously continues today and something that we need to be aware of. And geopolitical tensions in general, have obviously continued to play out across the world. And obviously, from a Sims point of view, we need to be understanding of that and how we actually manage that risk going forward. When I have a look at our business structure from a Sims Limited point of view, our core business, Sims Metal, obviously, that continues. Our adjacencies today will talk about synergy source renewal, and you'll get a good understanding of what we're trying to achieve there. Sims Lifecycle Services as you well are cloud focused, and then some of the divestments that we've made or we're busy making. Sims Municipal Recycling, as you know, we sold a part of that business a year or so ago. We're closing out the last components of that. We should be in the next 4, 5 months, and hopefully, that will be closed. LMS Energy, I think you're all aware, is obviously currently going through a process where we are divesting that, which is also including the Sims Energy component. That was the international arm that we actually opened a facility in the United States after a lot of -- sort of focused work on what type of a plant we wanted in the United States. And Sims Energy, actually, that [indiscernible] plant is up and running very well. But the LMS divestment, obviously, for us, is a decision that we've made and we actually are going to work through that process, and that should be over the next 6 months. Again, capital recycling, surplus land that we have across our group. All of the capital management, I think, is one of the key aspects that both Stephen and I have focused on is the discipline that goes around capital in our group, the returns that we expect from our group, but also making sure that when we run projects, they are run in a strict fashion. In other words, when you get to certain gate reviews and you do not pass that hurdle, that project basically stops. So that discipline for us is something that we've actually worked on very hard over the last time. So really, the 3 focus groups, Sims Metals, Sims Resource Renewal, and Sims Life Cycle Services are obviously our current focus is, and obviously, the divestiture of the other 2. That's really a quick introduction. Just I'm happy to take any questions on this stage if you want to, before we go into Christine's presentation.

Alistair, it would be interesting just to get your view, obviously, you said GFG come out and talk about EAF [Indiscernible]. I like your take on that and then the ability of scrap supply in Australia to feed that. And then how that may be closed into some of the investments you made recently like the Portland?

I think, firstly, putting an EAF makes sense. I get that. Whether they actually go through with that is yet to be seen because I've heard that come out before. I think one of the challenges that you have in Adelaide is being able to get material into Adelaide. So that scrap or the shred that they would require would need to be brought in from other states or countries. I don't know how much due diligence they've actually done around that body of work. But depending on the size of that EAF and I've had various feedback as to what that size of that facility is. From an Australian point of view, if you actually wanted to feed that EAF, there's not a problem to being able to do that. I think as long as that it is a competitive pricing arrangement, that shouldn't be a problem. I think one of the key aspects in Australia is unprocessed material that leaves this country that should not be leaving. In other words, crushed cars that get put into a container that are full of plastic and waste. Those should not be leaving, that should be processed in Australia, and if that's the case, then there's more than enough scrap.

And then a second one, if I can. The EV story had that accelerating on your slide. But have you changed your view around how you can be involved in that? I mean, obviously, in the past around batteries recycling, you've been -- said you won't be there.

We're obviously watching that space very carefully. I think for us, the actual recycling of electric vehicles at this stage, as you know, an obsolete vehicle typically takes 10 to 12 years before you actually start that recycling process. We're obviously geographically well positioned to be able to get electric batteries back and hand them back to the manufacturers or the owners of them. The actual breaking up of a battery and the actual recycling of black mass, that's a different story for us. And that's one that we are watching as well, but I'm very hesitant environmentally to go down that route. Secondly, when I look at all the actual companies in the United States that have undertaken that route, they're all running at a loss. So I think we are not going to just jump in and throw, because I've seen a lot of capital thrown at this, and I'm not sure that we have the solution yet.

Reference to the trends -- onshoring, deglobalization -- is that a threat to Sims [indiscernible] with a material that you are processing is strategically important to the country [indiscernible]?

Yes, I've heard that the European question that came out. I think it is what is a processed material finished product. It's a commodity. Shredded scrap is a commodity on the open market, can be sold accordingly. I don't see any nationalization taking place here in Australia or even in the United States. I do think that you're going to have issues like Section 232 in the United States will continue. But the actual scrap sourcing, I think, is fine in the United States as well as Australia. I think at some stage, if you got to a point where you really needed it for some particular reason, as long as the actual pricing is export parity, I'm care with that.

Hey, Alistair. How big is the unprocessed scrap export market from Australia? And where does it go to?

Sorry to interrupt. We will cover that later. You watch presentation. So maybe just so you won't spoil [indiscernible] presentation.

I'm trying to ask on the business portfolio side. And just note that you are still referring to the underperforming assets is potentially up for sale. And I know that you have referenced the U.K. business as falling into that category at the moment. How I guess is the turnaround there progressing? And is [indiscernible] where we should be potentially considering that, that moves across to the divestment side of things?

We're obviously going through a turnaround program of work at this stage. We obviously are going to want to make sure that we're actually doing everything from a U.K. point of view to make sure that it has a long-term viability with us. So at this stage, there's no discussions around divesture.

LMS Energy sort of market that you're sort of looking at, options there?

In LMS, we've made the decision to sell it. It's a Deloitte process.

That's a key driver behind that decision to sell. Because I mean you've had that for a very long time, reasonably profitable asset from what I understand. Was it a change in the dynamic of the market that they are operating in? Or is it more just [indiscernible].

It was more to do with our long-term progress going forward. In terms of LMS, I think there are shareholders that would like to see LMS literally in a business more focused on ESG, more in the renewable space, which is actually not, I think, giving the full value to Sims itself. And hence, that decision was undertaken.

[indiscernible]

The process is going well. It's that data. We're exactly tracking in line with where we want to be. So I would say it would be the -- we sort of sometime between July, September, that will complete and close. The process is going well. And I think just to add to what Alistair says, I think with LMS, we formed a view that sitting within Sims, the market wasn't valuing it as highly as the market should value it and it was a classic example of would you pull it out and put it separately in that group of shareholders and that group of owners value at more highly. And I think that's proven to be true. The amount of interest we've had in that asset is huge, and that's why we're having to go through this very structured process to make sure we get it down to the final bidders.

Okay. I'll come back and answer questions again later on after you've done a bit of a walk around I'd like to introduce Christine.

Thank you very much. Sims Resource Renewal. So thanks very much for the introduction there, and great to be part of the session here today. I don't know I haven't had an opportunity to meet any of you before. So I thought I'd just take a couple of minutes and just tell you a little bit about myself and my role in Sims Resource Renewal. So, Christine Baker, General Manager of Sims Resource Renewal. I've been with the business now for about 6 months. I joined in September of last year. And my background is quite different to probably a lot of the other people who I've met through our Metals Recycling business. So I'm a chemical engineer by background. And I've spent over 25 years basically in the oil and gas industry, working with the oil majors, predominantly in the refining and petrochemical sectors. And so my experience covers sort of technical and operations roles dealing -- working in refineries and petrochemical plants as well as supply coordination and optimization. And then I've also had senior business leadership roles across Australia and New Zealand, Singapore and the U.K. So that's just a little bit of my background as I come into this role in the resource renewal space. So all we want to talk to you today is actually around the demonstration plant. So you'll see quite a bit of material and obviously, the opportunity will have to go out in the field later and see the asset that we've built there. But I thought it'd be useful, and I understand there's a few new faces in the room and there's probably some new faces online. Just to take a little bit of time to talk about how Resource Renewal fits into the overall Sims purpose, our Sims Limited business. So it's really a key element about delivering our purpose. So we talk about a world without waste to preserve the planet. And so many of you know that it's part of our metals processing facilities. Once we've removed that metals from the stream, we end up with a waste stray that's left. And that waste stream can contain materials like plastics, concrete or wood and other hard-to-treat waste. It's reached a point where we can no longer recycle that material through mechanical methods. And so as a consequence of that, that goes to landfill. And our objective with Sims Resource Renewal is to really transform that hard-to-treat ASR, the waste plastics into higher-value products. And our goal is to really divert 1 million tonnes of this waste away from landfill and into higher-value products. So a really important goal in terms of delivering our overall purpose. I think what you'll see today is really the first step as part of the demonstration plan. But our long-term goal has always been about increasing that recycled content in products and really driving a pathway to full circularity. And that's a really important element as we move through the process of developing and delivering in the SRR program. I think as we start to become a solutions provider to advanced plastics recycling to dealing with plastics waste, it's really important as we look at the waste stream of the ASR, and it starts to become a resource to grow value. It also provides a really important element around the risk exposure that we have for the Sims Metal business around the cost of waste and waste cost escalation as well as the potential reduction in landfill capacity. And so that's why Sims Resource Renewal is a really important element of the business that we're growing to really help support the overall Sims Limited business. The piece that we really want to spend some time talking about today is on the demonstration plant. So I'm very pleased to say that we have completed the mechanical construction of the demonstration plant for approximately $22 million. And so I think it's interesting to think back over this last period of time of where we've executed this project. And we can all forget that it was only in February of '22 that Brisbane and Queensland had significant flooding activities, including this site. And we've also had significant impacts as we've been through the COVID recovery in terms of logistics and supply chains being impacted. And then in addition to that, we've also had escalating wages and salary costs and equipment costs here in Australia. So for the team to deliver this project for this cost of $22 million, I think it's truly an exceptional effort and really the credit goes to the team who've delivered that. And that important element around the strong focus on governance in the project delivery, that discipline that the team has had to deliver this project, ensuring really that safe operations and effective risk management. And why is that important to us? As we're looking at delivering a different program for the business, what gives us the confidence in our capability to be able to expand our systems and processes and our operations into advanced plastic recycling and these type of facilities. We've been able to deliver that really with a very experienced core team. And I do want to give credit to the team versus me taking that all myself, having only been here for the 6 months. But I'll take this opportunity to introduce 2 of the team who are here with us today. So Doug Grimmond, who's our Chief Operations Officer. And [ Adam Kane ], who's been the project delivery for execution for the project. And so Doug and Adam are both going to take you out into the field and escort you through and give you an overview when we take the plant tour. What's the demonstration plan? Why does the purpose of doing a demonstration plan? Why is that important for our business as we move forward. And one of the key elements as we think about managing change of our business is about validating this technology and validating the gas and vitrified product qualities. So making sure that we truly understand the applicability of this technology to what we are truly trying to achieve. So the operations are going to commence in June and will have an initial test period of approximately 6 months. And I thought I'd just take you very briefly through sort of a very high level on this little flow diagram that we have here. So you can understand the key elements of what you'll see in the demonstration plant out in the field. And we'll go through quite a bit more detail when we're out in the field. The core purpose is we take that scrap material, those end-of-life consumer goods, and we process them through the shredder, recover the metals that you see in the first part. We'll end up with the ASR, that automotive shred of residue. What we will learn as part of this demonstration plant? And I've got an example of the ASR actually that we can put on the table so that you have a feel for the kind of material that we're processing. But it's a lot about the materials handling. So how we will take this material and move it into our plasma gasifier, the reactor that we have for the facility, which is the core process that we will have to break this waste down into the core elements. And this reactor uses energy in the form of plasma torches to break that waste plastic down and gasify that material. As a consequence of that, we'll end up with a gas stream. And so that gas stream will be able to sample. So we'll understand whether we can produce a high-quality syngas, which will include hydrogen and CO2. The material that doesn't gasify will end up in a vitreous product stream. And the vitreous product will be a glass-like material. So we've got another sample that we can pass around so you have an understanding of that. And this glass-like material can be crushed to form an aggregate that can be used in construction. So putting more recycled content into construction materials. Our priority as we go through this process is really to make sure we can execute this with very safe operations. And safety is always the core -- the #1 priority for any operating asset. We'll go through extensive testing of start-up, shutdown and emergency response procedures because this facility will be different to the operations that we have in our metals. So making sure we fully understand that. And why is it important to have the results from the demonstration plan? It's important to us to understand the product qualities and the technology ourselves, but it's also going to assist us as we move forward in the commercial operations. It's going to assist us with the customer and community engagement, discussions with regulators as we go forward and understand and build confidence as we work on the commercial application of this. Other key elements that we really learned through this demonstration plant phase. So it's important around the information that we have will help us to understand and optimize the commercial facility that we'll be building. It will give us the insights into equipment performance, integrity and reliability and really help to optimize that future commercial scale and facility design. I do want to take us back just to a point of saying our end game, our long-term goal is to provide circularity. And so really the stage that we're at now with the process and for the demonstration plant is really this first element of taking the plastics in the automotive shredder residue and turning it into a syngas, breaking that waste down into the core elements. Once we have those core elements, we have that optionality to take those molecules and convert them into other products as a pathway to circularity. And that's a really important element about this program. It's a series of stepping stones to drive towards circular solutions. And the important element of that is it will inform us of the product qualities, it will inform us of a range of products we can produce aligned with what the markets need and a very market-back approach to where we want to go with the molecules that we can create. And that's why the demonstration plant will also be utilized for future secondary trials and research and development processes because the demonstration plant with commercial facilities will be focused only in these early phases of the circular pathway we're on. Output product optionality is very important as we think about going into other markets. So it's really important to have these multiple product choices to provide greater commercial flexibility as we consider what markets -- as we enter into different markets, what are the right molecules, what are the right products that we need to produce. And I won't go through them all, but there's a range of different products that you can see that could be produced from this. And particularly, you look to things like methanol with the growing market is used as an alternative and shipping fuel, ethanol, aviation fuels, there's a whole range of options that are available in terms of different products that could be available. As we look to consider different markets, particularly in the U.S. in larger markets, we need to look at what those market options are available, a very customer back focus and market-backed focus to determine what is the right configuration and what are the right assets that we would need. Our strength is going to be very much in being ownership of the waste, seeing that waste as a resource, the capability of the technology around breaking that waste down into the components, the syngas and then working with other technology providers for this existing technologies about the finished product portfolios that we might offer. So I thought it would be appropriate to provide a little bit of an update of where the Australian market development is and where we are for that. And just our investment timing for any commercial facility here in Australia will be linked to the demand and product evolution. And I know that we've been talking about carbon dioxide as a key market within Australia and hydrogen, which has been an evolving and growing market within Australia. What we'd say is that the hydrogen market is still emerging and still developing. It's not growing at the same rate as what we had anticipated, and there is quite a range of forecast demands that we can see. And this is just one example of many sort of publicly available options and ranges of demand globally that we'll see for hydrogen. In addition from the hydrogen market, there is also the guarantee of origin scheme that's still being finalized. So this is around the regulation and the regulator working to have basically an emissions accounting framework. So the important element around the guarantee of origin is it's still being finalized. We're working with the regulator in providing feedback on our processing and the way that we're making hydrogen to make sure that that's considered within the guarantee of origin framework. And that's going to be really important because consumers will want to understand what is the emissions intensity? What is that emissions footprint that we have for the products that we're making. So that's still in development and something that needs to be finalized. There is -- I think it's very important to say there is growing demand for -- by governments, by consumers, by our own customers about understanding, about managing these kind of waste, in particularly, plastics waste. The resource renewal program provides solutions to these advanced plastic recycling and that demand. We will continue to work with technology partners on what is the right product portfolio that we need for each of the market. And I feel that we'll be in a position, very well positioned to be able to capture those market opportunities as they continue to evolve. So I suppose just to really wrap that up in terms of what that means for the coming year in the shorter term. It is a very disciplined project program process that we're following and really looking to maximize the value that we can get from the product portfolio we can produce. In terms of FY '24, the demonstration plant commitments. There is no further capital commitments that we have for that project. And we've had some operating costs of around $2 million to execute all the testing programs we would like to do. We will continue a very disciplined commercial plant development process. We have a capital gate review process to determine whether to advance to the next stage, and that's always been a core part of the program to follow these very targeted processes. We will continue to pursue technology partnerships to develop a range of product options and that optionality in the market is going to be very important. We're well positioned to capture those market opportunities as they evolve and very much aligned with the customer demand for circular solutions. Our commercial facility funding is expected to be largely sourced from commercial partnerships and really structured to meet our own internal hurdle rates. So really, that's kind of the summary of where we're at. A great opportunity to go out in the field and see the value of this demonstration plant and the importance that, that will be as we continue to develop our products and our markets for our program. So I was going to leave you with one final set of pictures before we move into the Q&A. When I talked about delivering and executing this program back in July '22, this site was very key to the recovery of Queensland post the floods. And you can see the large amount of material that was stored on the site. In September '22, we only just got access to the area, and we're clearing the site and leveling the site to commence construction. So really, that's only 6 months ago. In November of '22, the base footprint was down. And by April of '22, really the full asset was being -- had been constructed. So to be able to deliver this program really in a 6-month period was really a great result for the team to be able to deliver. So I will throw it back to Anna.

So we will move for Q&A, I'll ask Stephen to join us up here. Stephen is our CFO; and Alistair as well. We'll start with [ Chuck Lee]. Lee, You can go first.

Can you remind us of like similar processes globally? Like what's the cost per kilogram of hydrogen that they can produce or range that you expect this to be producing hydrogen for at?

So sorry, if I understood the question, what's the cost to produce hydrogen from other processes?

No, just something similar or if you want to say what this project is going to produce hydrogen at whether that's a range. Like what do you think is a viable outcome in terms of hydrogen dollars per kilogram as you get out of this?

I suppose what I would say is I probably wouldn't share what our cost of production of the hydrogen is because that could impact, obviously, commercial negotiation. What we believe is that this is competitive versus other hydrogen production alternatives such as electrolyzer hydrogen production.

What is the capacity of the demonstration plant relative to your 1 million tonnes per annum aspirations?

So the demonstration plant is going to process 12 tonnes per day. So it's a relatively small volume really that's required from a demonstration perspective.

And then 12 tonnes per day goes in and what ultimately needs to still go into landfill?

So from that, there won't be anything that will go to landfill per se, as a solid in this process. So of the 12 tonnes per day, this demonstration plant is really just testing the technology. And so the gas stream will be combusted through a thermal oxidizer so that will be safely combusted. And we will collect the material, which is a vitrified product for testing. And I suppose any of that material that we don't require for the testing program will ultimately end up in landfill. What I would say is that the mix of materials that come in, about half of the materials gasify and about half of the materials end up in the vitrified product.

And then last question related to this is what would the cost of the landfill be per tonne?

The cost of the landfill, just standard landfill costs for this market. So it doesn't change. Off the top of my head, I don't know. I can look to my brains trust in the background.

The standard landfill levy will be up around $120 a tonne, pretaxable cost.

All right. So, okay. So relative to the $2 million of operating cost per annum for this site, we can work out the saved landfill costs with all of this, $120 per tonne, 50% of the 12 tonnes per day, not going to landfill or still going to landfill?

Yes. I mean, we can work those numbers out.

[indiscernible] How much energy does this plant consume in that plasma gasification process? And longer term, is that ultimately going to be quite circular in terms of the syngas that you produce, even use that to generate the energy that comes back in?

So in the commercial plant, we'll be using renewable energy. It is energy intensive because we are breaking the molecules down. But one of the key elements and we were actually going to highlight some of these out in the field, so don't want to take away the fun. But the importance about energy recovery through the design and they are some of the elements that we'll be working through and learn through the demonstration plant in there.

So I'm just -- I guess what I'm trying to get at is the amount of energy that you generate, syngas, does that exceed the amount of energy that you're putting into the system to create the syngas?

So the issue is about what you want to do with the molecules at the end, so and what you want to value them at for it. So if you're only doing waste to energy, that balance is that the syngas will generate less energy than the energy you put in. It's just sort of simple thermodynamics. But what we're looking to do is take that syngas and take those molecules as either hydrogen and CO2 and the value of those molecules versus the alternative cost to produce or the alternative energy required for those.

So while you're going to be combusting those gases during the demo plant, the idea is identifying, you identify those, more of those and then how do we push towards the markets that cater to those.

That's exactly right. So in this, this demonstration plan, it's about testing the technology at the front end, how we manage that waste, how we break that waste down, understanding how that operation works. And then that gas will be combusted through the thermal oxidizer. So we're not selling products out of the demonstration plant.

And so once in a while you go back into -- go back through the plant in the first instance?

No, from the thermal oxidizer, no.

It's just lost.

Yes, because it's a relatively short period of time that we're operating this.

That'll be, so if you can get this through the demonstration phase, if you look at all of the quality mix and commercial? The scale of the investment goes up to $20 million for the demo plant because you'll now have to add the [indiscernible] total molecules of the -- with those molecules. So if we were thinking about a CapEx number, let's say this thing is an outstanding success, as I'm sure it will be.

As I am sure it will be.See, look, in terms of the final commercial plant, what are those -- what's the capital outlay for that? Yes, it will be more than the $22 million. It will depend very much upon what is the final decision on the output products that we produce. So at this stage, not really got a number to share with you because we haven't finalized that next phase of the project.

Is the technology proprietary? In other words, can you sell, license this technology to others around the world if it is successful? Or is it a combination of off the shelf, please?

So our priority at the moment is really using the technology for our own use. But there are elements around the technology that we have developed. It's not our objective at the moment to go into the licensing of it. But it's something that we might consider in the future.

When you look at the economic case for this, you're going to be very, very exposed to commodity prices. So, the hydrogen price or [indiscernible] price. Where prices are today, does it make economic sense, or are you kind of relying on that changing market or an increasing level of demand for [indiscernible]

Yes. So hydrogen and where this, the resulting outcome as it were from the certification of the hydrogen will also affect what the price of that is. The Australian market at the moment is an importer of CO2 and that sets it on a commodity import parity pricing. Whilst commodities can be seen as the low end, commodities also have the benefit of -- we understand what that market, that debt fears as well. So I think there is value to understanding the linkage to a commodity market that can set a much more longer-term economic outlook for the project. I think in reality, all of those things are being assessed. And some of these markets are still developing like the hydrogen market. But there's also a lot of development in markets like methanol and a recycled methanol as an alternative to fuel oil and shipping has got a lot of interest and a lot of development that's occurring. That's another very likely market that we could take these molecules into. And that's the importance of that optionality that we have, as we go into each of those markets. I mean, I think ultimately, when you talk about returns, our goal is to deliver 15% to meet the hurdle rate and we will find the outcomes to that. And that's the gated process we go through. And if we don't meet the hurdle, we'll look for an alternative or we will not move forward.

That 15% hurdle, does that include the cost offset for avoiding landfill like this?

Yes, the economics will include the offset of the landfill.

I think it's also important to understand that there's a regional demand for products here in Australia and there's also a different demand in the United States, potentially. So we need to understand that those 2 are going to be different.

Christine, depending on the prioritizing to make sure the [indiscernible] what would be the scale of the commercial plan, what will be a minimum size to get to the proper scale functioning.

Yes. We're looking at a number of different options for a commercial facility. I think the 2 ranges that we're looking at are really to size a commercial facility to meet the local market as it were for Queensland. You saw similarly with Campbellfield. So that's about the 60 tonnes per annum volume that we, it's -- sorry, per day. Yes, so that's the design basis that we would work off. We're also testing other options at larger scale because we get some economics around a larger scale facility as well. So we're testing a different range of options in terms of the scale of the facility.

[indiscernible] in decent location for both and then also I guess whether to, a science question, what is the, what's the reason you chose that particular gasification technology that you're using there?

Okay. So the reason for the location of the demonstration plant, so this was -- we saw the benefit of locating the demonstration plant on our own assets and there was space available, whilst we have impacted our colleagues here in the metals part of the business but we're able to allocate a small piece of land to do that. And you'll get a feel for that when we go out onto the site around that. So I mean that was really the driver. It's an effective piece of land, it mitigates some costs of finding a separate piece of land and it's closely located.

Nothing to do with Queensland there. The Queensland government was very positive when we approached them about doing it here and working with them. So yes, no problem there.

Yes. And your second question was around why the selection of the plasma gasification technology. There's a number of technologies that we have looked at over a period of time. And it started, as you would all recall, from just considering a simple waste to energy. Other technologies that people look at for these kind of wastes or plastics waste are often around pyrolysis. One of the key things that we get with the plasma gasification, the material, I think, that is very key in terms of this inorganic material, that 50% of the material that ends up in the vitrified product. We're able to vitrify it within there. A lot of these other technologies result in high volumes of ash that's not able to be utilized or recycled and hence, must go to landfill. So our objective was to look for systems, for technologies that enabled us to really minimize the amount of waste. And we saw that, that plasma gasification was really key to that. I think the other piece of it is what you can control, how this operates. It's a closed system and we're able to capture in this case, the carbon dioxide. And so that becomes a valuable product versus other technologies, which may just incinerate and you're not able to capture as effectively high-quality, high-purity CO2. I can talk a lot more technical detail but that's probably would [indiscernible]

Any other questions? Okay. Do we want Doug to do the safety briefing first? So I'll ask Doug to come and share the safety briefing for the team before we get out there. And then we'll get you all kitted up in your gear and we'll be able to take you out in the field. So thanks very much for the time. [Break]

Hopefully, you've come away from your walk around, a little more informed about our [ SOL ] business. David Burrows and I will be taking you through the ANZ business. Now I appreciate that some of you have heard some of this before. What I'll be trying to do is to explain some of the nuances that are relevant to this region and why we've remained a very competitive force within the metals group. Firstly, I'm Rod Bonnette, joined the company in year 2000. I've had various roles through that time. across commercial trading, as we call it, operations and logistics. So predominantly every gamut of what we do. It's involved general management roles for some of the divisions. For a very short time, I actually ran the Australasian e-waste business and then moved back over there in 2018, took over as Chief Operating Officer for the ANZ Group. And then more recently, as part of a structural change moved into the commercial role. So what I really want to do this morning is, just simply give you a quick snapshot of who we are, what we do and the base and basic elements of our strategy. And Alistair has already kindly touched on some of the potential opportunity for us but we'll go over that as well. So who are we? It's fair to say that we're a very mature business and that we work or operate within a very well-developed industry. We are the largest metal recycler. We're the only one represented in every state and territory across Australia and New Zealand and of course, Papua New Guinea as well, where we have 3 locations. 910 full-time employees plus contractors, [ FTAs ] in the 7,040 range. Last year, turned over 1.6 million tonnes of metal -- as you might expect in terms of ferrous being the most voluminous part of that business, just north of 1.4 million tonnes of ferrous, nonferrous just north of 140,000 tonnes. And the balance made up with those metal recovered from residues that we've talked about this morning already. As you would expect, this is where the business started. We're in a very different part of our evolutionary stage or evolution, I should say, than other parts of the group. We're well catered for in terms of our market penetration. We've had consistent long-term investment in our business model. And I think Alistair touched on it earlier, being 2 islands in the middle of the Pacific, have had to build our own wherewithal in terms of engineering, et cetera. So we've had very large engineering teams. So it should be no surprise that in terms of global industry standard, we employ state-of-the-art recovery technology and processing technology. Equally, we're, I'd say, advancing in terms of nonferrous processing. One of the issues for us, we were talking about -- someone was talking about before of offshoring that's happened. Unfortunately, for us, there's a lot of industry that we might have once sold to that's been offshored. But having said that, we are advancing in our non-processing capability. And the whole idea there is obviously to get ourselves to the terminal market, not going through the middleman. In summary, scale and technology relevance for our region, very strong logistics space, which is really critical to what we do and I'll touch on that a little later. And importantly, a really well-developed market delivery channel or channels. We understand how to do it well. We've set ourselves up to do it well. And equally, we've given ourselves, I think, almost world-class optionality in which way we move metal in terms of export or domestic output. So what all that meant was a circa $1.7 billion revenues last year. In round numbers, market share in the region of sort of just below 30%. So the ANZ metal strategy and this is one that's developed over time and we continue to develop it. But if I -- when we look at the screen, I look at this as 4 elements but 2 on the outside of the supporting pillars. What I would say, again, been around a long time, securing at-source scrap. We'll touch on that later what that means. But that has been part of our DNA for a very long time and it continues to be -- we continue to invest in it. It's a paradigm that drives our acquisition decisions, our infill decisions in terms of greenfield developments, et cetera. We operate from a terminology we all know, hub-and-spoke arrangements but we'll give you a quick picture on what that looks like. But importantly, securing outsourced scrap, outside of the advantages, is that it confers, is also requires of us to be adaptable and to change with the times. And I'll touch on how we're doing that with some of our evolving supplier relationships. The key point about securing outsourced scrap and the other elements that you see here is pretty simply, 2 things. It underpins our volumes, so therefore, we continue to have consistent volumes to sell, to process and sell. And the other thing is, it moves us up the value chain. There is intermediaries on both buy and sell side in our business. When I'm buying from a dealer or I'm buying from someone who's already aggregated it, potentially processed it but taking value out of the value chain. So I want to stop that. And equally, on the sales side, if I get it smelter-ready, then I'll cut out a broker or a trader that might have traded it for us or a processor. The other element I had described as the pillar here, domestic and export optionality. I'll touch on it again later but approximately half of our yards, we have 51 locations in this region, nearly half of those have some form of export capacity. And that's really important in how we deliver to either export or domestic markets. Really well-established domestic supply arrangements now. We've worked very hard over the last decade or so with the Australian steel industry and we are the preeminent or predominant supplier to them. And of course, David will touch on a really exciting opportunity that will further this in terms of the Pinkenba Wharf. Briefly, operations at scale and product quality differentiation, operations at scale, there's a nuance for us. We don't have many mega cities in this part of the world. We've only got a couple with more than 5 million people. So there's a nuance to how we bring scale. We clearly bring scale like you've just walked past. So in the Australian capital cities, New Zealand, et cetera, we provide the right scale, shredder size, downstream processing, et cetera. We do all of that. But we also aggregate scale with processing capacity right around both countries. And of course, product quality, Alistair touched on it earlier. Very important to us in terms of getting to terminal markets, whether it's simply removing contamination or whether it's actually taking the next step in terms of getting alloy separation or what have you. They're all important matters. And I'll just touch on a couple of recent advents that we're looking at for the Australian business, which you'll hopefully understand will play an incremental role in what we do. And I think the key for us is that because of our well-developed position, we are almost forced to look at organic growth. There isn't an acquisition that we can make that will move the needle or not unlikely one that will move the needle seriously for ANZ. So the paradigm, I've used it over a couple of times but the paradigm is around how do we incrementally improve the asset base, logistics space and the expertise that we've got on the ground now. And what that seems to do is, we're a really consistent performer over virtually all market conditions. So just to touch on the 4 elements, outsourced scrap. So firstly, what does that mean? Essentially, we just talk about outsource as being acquiring the metal at the first exchange. So if a plumber goes and strips out some copper pipe from a house and he goes to a scrap dealer, that scrap dealer has called Sims, we've bought it at source. If Aurizon Rail want to relay some track or BHP rail does the same and we've got a collection crew and we're there at rail side collecting it, processing it, we bought it at source, et cetera. You get the idea. How do we do that? In 2 ways. The most effective way that we've built over a long period of time is investment in people and the infrastructure to support those people that work in regional and remote areas. As I stand here today and talk to you, there would be upwards of 20 outside job crews as we call them working in various parts of Australia and New Zealand, operating mobile balers, shears and compactors. We'll take excavators out to do cleanups. We go everywhere. And when I say, we go everywhere, we obviously have yards up in Northwest Australia. We've been in places like Wyndham and right through the territory, back down in the middle of the country to places like Elliott, Alice Springs, the [indiscernible] in Southwest Australia. We've even collected scrap on Kangaroo Island. There isn't a place that I can think of that we haven't been to, to collect scrap. And there's not many competitors that we have. We have competitors that have pockets of this but not consistently. And it takes people to drive that. So people that have the relationships regionally. We have to have the right investment in them. A lot of fair conditions but also, we've got people living regionally and remotely with local relationships. And then a very long-term investment and sustaining investment in that collection equipment. I touched on evolving suppliers relationships and 2 examples. One, obvious one is sustainability. Corporate social responsibility is forcing boardrooms, companies to look at who their partners are and who they're using to provide services. And it's not just about what our Scope 1 emissions are. It is about things like modern slavery compliance. It is about DEI. It is about reporting capacity, et cetera. Those sorts of things are playing very firmly into our model. We do it well. And certainly, what we're seeing big strides in terms of business development on major accounts, not just mining accounts now but certainly all large logistics accounts, any national supplier, we're getting a lot of traction. I guess the other bit there, which is probably a bit exciting for us, is around joint ventures and potentially joint ventures with traditional landowners. There are some parts of this country that other corporates are saying, we want to work with traditional landowners. We don't necessarily want to work with a corporate based in Sydney. And so we understand that. We've been on our own journey. We've been working on our own rep for about 2.5 years now. We've had indigenous cadet programs and we've worked in community support programs, et cetera. So we've engaged. But we're looking for ways where the rubber really hits the road. And whilst I can't use names yet, we do have 2 in-principle agreements for the formation of joint ventures, which we're working on right now. And we're excited not because of the fact that it will help us continue to do work on some well-known names but it will open up lots of other opportunities. There's lots of companies out there that want to do this, they don't know how to do it. And if we can provide the delivery model, we think it is going to be exciting. And of course, above all of that is potentially the role we'll play in terms of community benefit, which is hitting at the core of all of our considerations when we do this. I'll just touch on that briefly in terms of M&A in infield or infill, greenfield, brownfield development. You heard what I said before about acquisitions. Having said that, an example there, we saw across Australia, a local one here in Brisbane. Why did we do it? Well, there's some nice synergies around some of the types of business they did. But importantly, a yard in Brendale in North Brisbane, where we weren't located, and a yard in a place called Yatala, which is right smack bang in the middle of the fastest-growing industrial corridor in Australia. So we weren't there. We need to be represented. We targeted the approach and we were successful. We've got similar examples in terms of our green or brownfield development. In the last 12 to 24 months, we've opened up new yards in Minto. We've repositioned a yard in Gosford in New South Wales to be more customer focusing -- focused in their area. We presently are working on an infill opportunity in Tasmania. So we've got 2 sites. People would say, oh, that's enough for Tasmania, surely. One of them isn't a fit for purpose in our view. It's not customer focused in the way we want it to be, so we're changing around. So a constant focus on infilling, making sure the spokes, forgive me, support the hub appropriately. Just briefly, operations at scale. As I said, we've got -- you see the map here. Please don't try and count 51 dots because some of them have joined together. But the red dots representing the shredders, 5 in the capital cities in Australia, 1 in Auckland, 1 in Christchurch and a specialty shredder in Adelaide. Some of you would have been -- I might have met you in 2018 I think it was when we did the beneficiation plant tour. And we've got a shredder on that site, we do some specialty work with that. So that's scale. What accompanies all of those is the appropriate downstream technology. Even if it was first generation, all of our first-generation equipment has been updated and we've adopted second or third-generation technology in part or in full in those plants. But most importantly and I spoke about it before, this idea that right around the coast of New Zealand and Australia, what you see is an ability in some way to process and export. And that's -- I'll touch on it more a little later when we get to the optionality piece. But having the ability to do that simply saves us logistically in terms of costs of moving material. In New Zealand, we have topography and it's, forgive me, Stephen, but a terrible road network, which makes logistics very expensive. And we have the [indiscernible] distance from Australia. The reality for us is that being able to process and export right around the 2 countries gives us, quite frankly, a cost advantage over many that might have to transport back to 1 hub, 1 processing center. And we've used that to our advantage, both domestically, which is important and in export terms. If I think about that from a ferrous point of view, the advantage of that scale -- sorry, let me take a step back, I called it aggregated scale. So I'm not calling it scale in 1 place. I'm calling it the combination of scale is our advantage. So what that does is, it cements our position as the predominant player in ferrous terms, in both acquiring the scrap and then processing and selling it. In nonferrous terms, it gives us greater cash flow opportunity with this scale because what nonferrous domestic markets there are, we've absolutely tapped into. We would be the preeminent supplier just about every single one of them. And there aren't many but those that are there, we are fully engaged and work with. And the obvious thing to say is, the cycle of cash, when I'm delivering 5 tonne at a time of copper granule is a lot quicker than waiting for 40 or 60 tonne contract to be exported to, let's just pick China. So a great benefit there. Also, in some cases, tighter correlation between the time we buy it and the time we sell it because it's the gap between the 2. And we're used to living in a world where sometimes correlation has to be judged. But certainly, when you have the tighter correlation, you can take advantage of it. You can bring real certainty to your margins. And then obviously, the last 2 pieces, just around the technology edge it gives us and just simply the geographic coverage. There are customers out there that have workshops or distributorships or what have you, some sort of facility all over Australia and New Zealand and they want to deal with somebody who can do the lot. And we're about the only party that can. Anybody else has to use third parties to contract in this region. We're the only party that can do this and that is a clear advantage to us.

Rod,, can I just ask on rail volumes around Australia. Do you use rail much to meet your volumes?

That is a great question and I'm going to say, I wish because unfortunately, Australian rail is very expensive.

Again, I was going I can ask you, if the development of the inland rail line, is that going to...

It has all the potential to do so. Let's just say we're looking at what opportunities that might avail itself for us. But again, the predecessor to that is, hope you already know and we've worked with a lot of rail groups. And even with that [indiscernible] relationship, we've found very hard to get anything like commercial costing on moving scrap down. Interesting, in New Zealand, we think with New Zealand Rail, there might be an opportunity there. There's a very strong relationship between us and the local steel mill who equally have a strong relationship with New Zealand Steel. So we think between the 3 of us, there is something we can do together. There was a time, when in many of their yards, we had sidings and we use rail regularly.

That was my next question. Where are you located relative to the rail line?

So [indiscernible] has a siding that if we really wanted to, we can reestablish. If we think about -- sorry, oh and absolutely, we're right on the back of the rail. So we have already engaged with them about a potential siding. Pinkenba, there is a possibility for the same or we might be close to a hub that we can utilize. It is a frustration, I have to say. Quality and differentiation. I said I'll just give you 2 examples. Now I am going to apologize for the quality of this photo. But what I would say to you is, it is a robot and it's not in jail. It's just safely hidden away. But that only happened about 2 or 3 days ago. We've got some of our engineering team with their colleagues in North America right now and we're doing the first trials of a picking robot. Picking robot is something we've talked about for a long time. Essentially, what this will do, we're going to use it in it's first -- in the first place to pick out copper from the ferrous downstreams. Now this is a job we employ men and women to do. It's a boring job. Quite frankly, in the wrong environmental conditions, it's hot, it's cold, it's mind numbing. And I don't care who you are, after a while you can grow inattentive. This thing will be faster and it's got a dual benefit. One, we pick up more copper to sell. Two, 1 of the issues that you've heard us talk about is low copper shred. And low copper shred happens in 2 ways. One, it's intrinsic to the metal, bound within the metal; or two, it's free. We just don't want to give away free copper. This is just our bread and butter. So really -- we've been waiting for this development. And I'm very pleased to say that the next set of trials for this are going to happen in South Australia and we're hoping in the second half of this calendar year. So pretty excited about that. The other piece of technology there, again, in South Australia, we're going to be building this. In fact, footings are down for this now. Here is a polishing plant, a polishing plant simply takes metal and it works effectively upon itself. And what that does is it removes oxidization and dirt. It presents it in a better way. So we get a more colorful metal. Two benefits here. One, when we send it to a place like China, we can go straight in the front door and it's far more likely to meet customers' requirements, or two and we're thinking about this as the second idea, 1 of the technologies we use in beneficiation is color, color sorting. So if we've shined it up and we've made it more colorful, it will segregate better. We will be able to detect it better. So a dual purpose for that, looking forward to seeing how we go with that in the second half of the year. And I just talked about the other pillar here that stands adjacent to at-source scrap. I talked about 70% outsourced. Key number here for us is this number down here on the right. And this is about our ferrous volumes. Over the last decade or so, we have migrated that tremendously to nearly half and half. And that optionality has been really important. We have a strengthening domestic steel mill industry here in Australia. That makes us their largest supplier. It cements us as their largest supplier. We are first at the table. In fact, it's my job on a monthly basis to negotiate the Australian steel price. That's the price that applies to all the other suppliers but we negotiate it. That's the position that we hold. And we don't abuse that power. That's a normal commercial negotiation. But it speaks to how important we've become. And I take your thoughts back to that map. So we've got -- let's think about state we are in, North Queensland. We've got Cairns, we've got Townsville, Gladstone, MacKay, did that in the wrong order, sorry. But all of those sites have export capacity and we can load onto a boat. And does it matter if it goes to Port Kembla Steelworks or does it go to Bangladesh? The answer is no, we avail ourselves of the best opportunity at the time, whatever that opportunity is. And it has been clearly an underpinning item for our consistent performance as a business. I just would point out here, not to confuse with the F2 -- '22 revenues, are all metals. That includes nonferrous as well. And the problem with that is far fewer tonnes in nonferrous but the revenue per tonne is much greater. So it does skew those numbers a little. So you're not seeing 50% Australia, that's why. Okay. I think that's all I need to say there. So there were some questions on it. Alistair, started to talk about this. So you get the strategy that we have in play here. We want to make sure that wherever possible through, by whatever means, we're securing scrap at source, that we're applying the right technologies, et cetera, to augment the processing benefit. And then we've got the right channels, contractual channels and arrangements in place that allow us to deliver it to the best opportunity for us, cutting out any of the middlemen. So clearly, I'm not going to repeat what you already know around safeguard mechanisms, et cetera. You all know there's 3 ways effectively that the global steel industry can change: greenhouse gas emissions from fossil fuels, they need to do greener energy, they need to find a way to perform reduction without carbon or mitigating the use of carbon, typically hydrogen is what's talked about. And they need to use more scrap. Now that's really relevant for an organization like us that's now got a 50% supply into the domestic market. We talked about it before, 1.5 million tonnes have been announced for [indiscernible]. I won't -- I'm not going to give any conjecture about whether it will or won't happen, just 1.5 million tonnes there. Collie, Western Australia, feasibility study announced for 400,000 tonne EAF, a couple of hours from Southeast of Perth, has government support for the feasibility studies. So it certainly got support straightaway. We're also aware and can't divulge but we're aware of other parties that are looking at extra EAF capacity. So right at the moment, there's about, I beg your pardon and of course, BlueScope, any integrated mill is looking to change the amount of scrap that they put into the charge. And to be very fair, BlueScope have worked very hard at this over the last couple of years. And they are approaching -- I won't say they're there yet but they're approaching all the best practice in terms of that. Those charge rates for a merchant scrap operator like ourselves really change how much the scrap demand profile looks in the future. So if I add all of those influence together on top of the fact that there's 4.5 million tonnes roughly, steel production in Australia, there is circa 2, 2.1 million tonnes sort of scrap demand as we sit here and talk. Potentially, there's another couple of million tonnes, all round numbers, coming on board from what you know from the announcements, let alone anything else across the region. We're not going to run out of scrap but the scrap isn't all well positioned to get to the right place. And the truth is that Sims and the industry have been calling for some action. Because one thing that is hurting the industry is the cheap export of unprocessed. I'll be very clear about this, unprocessed scrap. So unprocessed scrap is a car that's just simply baled up, a fridge or large gadget material that's cubed up and shoved in a container. They've normally got a very high waste component, upwards of 30%, sometimes 35% waste, i.e. nonmetal in one of those bales and that's plastic cardboard, glass, fiber. They are all the things that the Australian government moved to ban in terms of waste exports. And yet today, it's still legal to do that if you bale it up with some metal and put it in a container. It doesn't make sense from a policy platform. But more importantly for us, it doesn't make sense in terms of supporting the [ sovereign ] industry and the onshoring activity that we're all hoping for. And there's estimates around this. I think Alistair's answer was a lot. There is a consultancy in Australian Economic Advisory Services group that estimated at slightly more than 1 million tonnes being exported. Our range might be, say, $0.5 million to $1 million to apply some conservatism. But I think you can imagine that with our positioning with the existing market penetration, et cetera, that we would naturally expect to take a large share of that if that opportunity was to come around. So Sims and the steel industry and 1 or 2 others have been very active in this space and will continue to be because it supports sovereign industry. It has environmental benefit, sustainability benefit, circularity benefit and policy alignment. It just makes sense.

Cracks in 2019 when they put all those bands to it.

Yes. Look, we pleaded for it not to. And at the time, unfortunately, the Minister [ Li ] at the time viewed our industry is mature enough. What her mindset was around was developing terminal market or recycling capacity. And so her prism was slightly different to the outcome we were looking for. So...

I think there's been 400,000 tonnes [indiscernible].