Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to this fourth quarter report from Sivers Semiconductors. My name is Anders Storm and I'm going to lead you through this presentation. And we will, as normal, have Q&A after the presentation. So to start to summarize the interim report for Q4. Q4 revenue came in close to SEK 30 million which was a 17% year-on-year increase and a really strong EBITDA at SEK 3 million-plus with adjustments, of course, for the social fees down to minus SEK 3 million, but that is a clear growth in that sense and I'm getting why. Then also, in the quarter, we had this really important 5G deal with 8devices for the U.S. market, which we have estimated to an order value from 8devices for SEK 70 million to SEK 100 million over the coming 3 to 4 years. We are now at 21, these 5G design wins total. We have got 2 new orders, 1 in October and now recently in January for SEK 15 million from our first Fortune 100 customer. And we also strengthened the balance sheet a lot by converting the convertible bond. And we have close to SEK 250 million cash in bank after the quarter end. Photonics have also been able to have new research projects within quantum technology, which I will talk more about. And we also have 2 new orders for beamformer ICs for Taiwan and India lately, which is showing that the new beamformer product is going forward. So looking at the numbers. Growth, 17% on net sales, which was really good in that sense even if the pandemic is raging and the second wave is not making it easy for many companies. But we've been able to capitalize on what we're doing so far and we're going forward. EBITDA was plus SEK 3.1 million. But there, we have an adjustment, of course, for social security fees. And you who follow us have seen that it was the opposite last quarter. And that's connected to the share price going up or down. If the share price goes down, we get the social fees reservations back and vice versa. Adjusting for that, it was minus SEK 3.2 million but, still, it's an improvement. The adjusted EBITDA is an improvement of SEK 15 million from last year, year-on-year, which is a lot due to savings that has been done. And even if we actually are spending quite a lot right now on the work getting into NASDAQ, we're still being able to keep and improve profitability. And Photonics has been able to in-house their -- the production for some parts, which is saving a lot of money. I think it's a total of SEK 12 million over the year. And then also being able to increase prices due to really good products for this customer, increasing net margins and so forth. Operating income actually was also very close to being sort of breakeven. In this case, we improved the operating income by SEK 22 million compared to last year, which is really good. If we look at the full year, we came then -- we repaired some of the COVID issues for the year and we came in on a flat year, which I think is quite strong in this situation. We also improved the EBITDA if you look behind the curtain on the social expenses. And so it was actually flat SEK 20 million in those numbers. And looking at the operating income, like DETV said that we did a large loss for the year, but you have to look at the -- sort of the effects of the embedded derivatives in the convertible bond that is some sort of provision and so forth, which is not sort of -- should not affect the operating income. So the actual loss was minus SEK 56 million versus minus SEK 72 million last year. So that is a very good improvement. And also cash in bank feels very strong. And it's really good to have that in our back now going into the NASDAQ and working hard to get on NASDAQ. More about that a bit later. If we look at the segment reporting for the quarter, it's very clear that we have been growing in both areas this quarter. 42% in Wireless, that shows that our 5G stuff is moving forward. Photonics moving up 11%, also good performance. We have increased a little bit quarter-on-quarter for North America to 68% and just a little bit on Asia. We're seeing more movement in Asia but it hasn't sort of come through yet in these results. So in general, I think we are in a good trajectory and looking to increase growth in the future, of course. If we look at the significant events during Q4. Ampleon, the conversion was done, which was really good and at a good level. We also changed the name from Sivers IMA to Sivers Semiconductors, which everybody knows now. And that has been even more good, I think, for the company compared to what we thought. And the whole rebranding and everything really gets our name through much better everywhere. And everyone understands now what we are doing and working with, which is helping the company, both from a sales perspective but also the understanding in the spot market. We also received a 5G order from Siemens. We had this really interesting order, I mentioned, from 8devices for 2D RF modules in the 60-gigahertz bands. We've received our first order in India from our reseller and from the customer, Astra Microwave. We had an order for SEK 4 million from the Fortune 100 in Q4 and plus 2 interesting future research projects within quantum, 1 for atomic magnetometers and 1 for LiDAR systems, which we'll see long term how we can sort of capitalize on that in our Photonics business. So the 8devices fixed wireless access product is quite an interesting thing. And the U.S. market is now on the brink of starting using this technology in volumes. And this product will then be used all as the small cell and the home CPU units and deliver gigabit speeds to the home. It's a full contract with everything included when it comes to production and pricing and all of that. The end customer to our customer is in the U.S. And the R&D, in this case, is going very quickly. And they go very quickly forward and they already have prototypes and hardware now. And it's going to be less than 12 months from start of the project to getting finished products here. So that is quite unusual and really, really good that the company can show what they can also put in. Volume rollout is expecting starting from Q3, Q4. And we already have an order as well for deliveries in Q2 with some smaller volumes. And it's using our newly launched 2D module that is 57-71 gigahertz spectrum, which is still, I would say, one of the most advanced modules compared to some of the legacy companies out there. If we look at Photonics then and the quantum projects, I mean all of these things are research. And we do it together with different organizations. We will probably not, for many years, see products here but we build it for the future. And it's important to build and look at new technologies and how it can affect that in this space. And quantum is becoming quite a hot area. And we have a really good R&D organization to handle these kind of things. And it's also something that our -- all our PhDs, as you know, we have 20 PhDs in the company, really look forward to be part of a very high-tech future project as well as the other things we're doing. Another ongoing quantum project, the quantum key distribution solutions, which is a way of connecting data communication in a very secure way using quantum stages. And here, I've put the picture in from inside quantum technology, their estimates in different areas for how QKD can be used and so forth. And we are looking to see how that type of thing we have could be sort of used in the market. And we don't have sort of a guesstimate yet when we can see anything on that into the market. But we are working on partners and so forth as we really have only the chips today and so forth. We need to sort of create the whole system level thing to be able to be used in the networks, of course. Then if we look at the events after Q4. We had the second order I talked about for the Fortune 100 here of SEK 11 million. And that totals now SEK 85 million from that customer. We got also a new 5G order in from Taiwan. And we have also recruited a new MD for our business. It should say MD there, not CEO, for our business, Wireless business in Sweden to give me more time to focus on the listing process and the soft market and other things around the overall group business. If you look at the Fortune 100 customer, again, as I mentioned, 2 orders now recently. We are still negotiating pilot lines. Unfortunately, I don't have any sort of new information on that. This will take its time. And as I said before, this is a long process. And totally, it can take up to 4 years before we get into volume, coming down a bit; this over 2 years now. Photonics is, however, right now doing -- making CapEx investments to make sure that we're upgrading everything and working on securing that these pilot lines later on can be in place as well. And if you look at then this picture I've shown before, now we added 2 more orders here. And we started the first project in October 2018. And we are adding more and more things in there and it's going really well. The customer is quite happy with what we're doing. They have invested SEK 85 million so far, which is a lot of money just for R&D. We also received this other Fortune 100 order in April last year. And the delivery has gone really well. They now are looking at taking the next steps here. So we're looking forward to see if we can make the next step here in from the research phase to the product development phase or not with them. But we feel hopeful that we have done really a good product for them. So we'll see where that goes off in the next step. If we look at the design wins, we are at 21 design wins now. And I can't go through every one of them but I can give you a short update in certain areas. So ADTRAN and CCS, as you know, they are out there and they have a working product. They are installing it. I think it's like 6 or 7 places right now that I know of that they are rolling out. So it is moving ahead. But they have, of course, been affected by -- specifically in the trials. I know that they have moved many trials forward due to the corona in itself so if there are any securities in that. Blu Wireless is also moving forward with attractive train applications. But the same thing there, there's not many people on the trains now in U.K. and so forth. So I think that they move forward a lot of the investments in that piece into 2021. And we hope to see that materialize in 2021 instead. Cambium is -- have actually put in an order now for volume. And we're expecting them to be out in the market here quite soon with their products. And we also have the East European company, a very similar technology there at 28 gigahertz. And we also see that they are on the brink on getting products out, which we will hopefully be able to tell more about soon. I'm also going to show you a picture of the new Fujikura product. We expect that one could be sort of in the market in Q3, Q4. And then we have some other products here. I mentioned Ampleon. They are still working on getting inside sort of any Tier 1s. And as we see in the product we built to them, we are now winning and testing it out. And we are in a place where the product is actually now in the market. You've seen the 2 latest press releases on that product for Q2, Q3 companies. So that is, of course, interesting. If you look at AirVine, we go down a bit here. They have now won, I think, 20 proof-of-concepts with customers that they're rolling out right now. And they're on track to volumes in the second half this year so that's really positive. So we can see many of these are moving ahead. And as you see further down, 8devices is also there. And as I mentioned before, that's going to be rolled out in end of the year in full volumes there. So we have a very exciting year coming in here. We have a lot of other products going on and working really hard with them plus a really interesting pipeline with a lot of customers, where we can see potential new design wins coming in for the year. Here, you can see some of the European rollouts that ADTRAN is -- and CCS is working on. We have the one in Sweden here and a couple of them in the U.K. I mean this is -- this was from 1st of January. So it's a year ago. There was actually a loud start producing this network due to licensing in Europe was announced from them. And so it started quite well. But I think it will be more and more adopted as we go on and we can show really good usage of this technology. So it's still in early phase, but ADTRAN and CCS is pushing on. And I will say they are doing that all over the world as well. So we'll see more of their rollouts during the year. This is the new Fujikura product that was launched recently. We're seeing volumes from them, I would say, in Q3, Q4. And it's good to see now that they have taken this product out to the market. Being a Japanese company, they are very, very rigid and want everything to be 100% correct. So they take everything very easily or slowly in that sense. And -- but it's very positive now that they come to this phase. And AirVine, as I mentioned, I mean they won the Best Enterprise Solution with the design win we have. It's sort of a multi-gigabit data transfer via -- and through walls. You can use that indoor to replace sort of traditional cabling. We expect volumes from Q3. And they are in 20 early access partners, who are trying this out. We've even got companies from Sweden asking to get in contact with them. So it's a really interesting product. And I think that will be a surprisingly interesting market that they are opening up even if they are a small company in that sense. So NASDAQ, this is what me and our CFO, Robert, works a lot on right now. And also, the rest of the company have done a lot of things. We've sort of finalized the pre-audit with the auditors. And we have done a lot of changes based on that over the last 3 months. You've seen changes in the Board, for example, and different things, adding new things into that, taking new policies and so forth. We had a kick-off meeting with NASDAQ this week with the auditors and NASDAQ themselves. So that is really good. We started sort of the last part of the process. And of course, it always takes some time. And it's not us who decides everything. It's the auditor who will say if we are ready or not. But we're doing whatever we can to be able to enter the list, of course. And the auditor is appointed; that the legal due diligence have started, tax due diligence have started. And the target is, of course, to be approved by the listing committee then. And right now, the -- our time frame is pointing in June. But of course, it's not really up to us but we do whatever we can to secure that. We're now -- when we're in this tight process and spending this much time on it, it's important that it's done in the correct way. And here's also an update of the shareholders. And I'm really happy to say that we have added more and more sort of retail as well as institutional investors. I think just looking at Avanza now, I think we have almost 16,000 retail investors on Avanza and probably 20,000 in total. We have -- 19% is now institutional investors and we get more and more in. And I was very happy to see that the Third Swedish National Pension Fund joined us with a small stake here recently. And we are moving ahead in that direction to -- for the listing, of course, and having more shareholders as we go forward. So I've been talking about this. Why do I see that 2021 is going to be one of the most exciting years in the company's history? I assume when you listen on what we're talking about here, we are doing a lot of things. I mean the NASDAQ main listing, that's going to be something that's never happened in the company's history before. And getting ready for that is a big thing and it really helps the company also to shape up in all processes and so forth. We are also, at the same time, hiring a lot of people. I think we have 17 open positions now on our webpage. Four of those are another exciting thing. We opened our first office in the U.S. since we have like 68% of the sales there. Right now, we're moving in and we need to do. So we are currently interviewing for positions there. And it looks really good and there's a big interest. And the customer sales funnel in all aspects looks better than ever. And we're really getting the message out. And the market is becoming more and more mature for everything we're doing. And it seems like we are at the right time at the right place, which is very important here. And then we're moving the design wins into volume orders now. And that's going to be really exciting to see. I mean we are not the one who steers that, of course. Our customer and the customer's customer have to be successful for us to be successful. But I think it looks really promising and with some clouds on the horizon with COVID and such, still, but I think that should move us in the right direction for the year. And also, the talks and the negotiations with the Fortune 100, the pilot lines are ongoing. And if we can settle that during this year, which we hope, of course, we can never promise anything, but if we can do that, that's going to be, of course, an extremely important step and a transformation of the company for the future as well when we get to that. So if we're looking then to summarize the year. This Q4, really strong EBITDA improvement, which I'm really happy with. And specifically, the Photonics team have done a fantastic job with getting to sort of a profitable EBITDA over a year on -- over the full year, actually, which is really strong. Also, 2020, I think the revenue coming in on flat is really good. Even if you look at the dollar who had fallen a lot over the year in percentage-wise, we are still -- also, that effect that we haven't talked about here. But -- so it's really good to get in that place during this year, which has been very strange in that sense. We're still totaling 21 design wins. It should actually say 9-plus. It was 12 last year and 9-plus net for the year. 150 sold 5G EVKs during 2020, that's a huge number. I think it's more than 3x than last year, which is then showing that the EVKs we're selling goes into the pipeline. Of course, all of these are not sold to sort of customers that could go into volume. It's universities and all of those things. But at the same time, it is a really good thing to get into universities because that is our recruitment ground and an understanding of what we're doing. And those people get out into the market in the future and building long term, it's really important. The Fortune 100 customers are progressing really well. We have SEK 250 million cash in the bank. And we are leaning really, really forward now to produce the situation we're in. And I feel very confident that we are moving into this really exciting year in 2021. So I'm very happy that so many people are listening in as well. And we are now able to -- I think it's actually 300 attendees right now. And I'm ready for questions.

So I will open up the question box here and -- okay. If we start. "Is the private line plant to be built in your factory or somewhere else?" It's actually -- we're looking at different venues. But one of the venues is next door to the factory in Glasgow. "Status of the Sivers Ampleon chip?" Yes. We are out selling it now. We are ready to start sort of volume production with that. So the chip is actually working. There are some small bugs. But for now, we think it's good enough to be selling in volumes as well. "When will the pilot line for the Fortune 100 be ready?" I mean it's actually hard to say. We're still in negotiations and the customer still is very secretive about their products. So we have not a chance to actually share that. "Number of sold 5G evaluation kits? Potential customer in Q4 2020?" I don't have the exact number in my head, actually, how many was for potential customers. But I would say, for the full year, it's probably sort of 40-60, something like that. And some of them -- of those 40% are also someone who bought more than 1 unit. So it's -- I haven't dived into that number exactly. "How many F1 (sic) [ F100 ] customers do you currently have?" We have 2 official F100 customers that have put in orders. We're working with some on top of that in both business areas. And the other ones, we are yet to be able to release anything about because it's not ready to do that. But we have a lot of interesting things going on. "Are all in Photonics?" No. We're actually talking to Fortune 100 also in 5G area wireless. "The new chip developed in Ampleon was not SiGe, I believe, but is new chip. Is that correct?" Yes. That's correct. The new chip technology used in that chip is RF SOI. And we will, in the future, use that technology in some RF chips when we feel that that's correct. And we're still using silicon germanium in other chipsets. "If so, when can this reveal? And will that be overseas?" Yes. I just revealed it. And we are talking about it now. I mean to say, it will be used both for licensed and unlicensed bands in the future in different ways. But I can't go into details what we're doing in next-generation chips this year. "Can you say something about the 8devices' size? How much sales? And how many customers?" So the 8devices' size, as I've mentioned, the U.S. customer there is quite interesting. And I hope, as I said before, that we can share more about that in the future. But it is one specific -- as I understand, it's a fixed wireless access customer. We expect that their estimates is based on that we can sell SEK 70 million to SEK 100 million over a 3.5-, 4-year period. So that cycle is interesting. "The same cycle for 8devices, how long are or was?" I'm not sure of that question really. But the sales cycle was fairly short in that sense with that customer. But the overall -- I mean we're part of and are very well known in the ecosystem now. And we work with companies for 4, 5 years in different aspects. And then some views from sort of requests to adaptation can go really quickly but it will also have had other connections. So it's really hard to say. "Will they sell exactly the same solution with your module to other customers? Do they need to adapt it in some way?" Now they will be able to sell their own best module. And they can use it however they like it. "If you look 3 years ahead, which business unit, Wireless and Photonics, is expected to be the largest in terms of revenue?" Yes. I think, in a way, that both units are showing very promising future. And if Fortune 100 customers come in, I would say that there is a chance that both units will be yes, at equal size. So it's a bit hard to say, but I think sort of 5G will accelerate quicker in short term, but Photonics will be this sort of large scale in this and make high sales in essence. "Congratulations to a nice quarter. Did you mention that Cambium have placed an order in Q1?" Yes. They placed an order for us in volumes but not big volumes yet. But they are now on the brink of getting into volumes, yes. "Are there any discussion with more F1 customers than the concurrent?" Yes. As I mentioned, it is. Yes. "How does AirVine business plan look like and typical customers?" I don't have AirVine's business plan. But typical customers are sort of the building owners who want to put in a wireless system instead of cables. I think their technology is really cool and I hope to see more of it. And from my perspective, they are like the typical silicon company or a product company in the valley that will be sort of acquired by Cisco or something like that. So they have a very interesting solution. I think there will be more companies that want to do the same thing. "Any discussion with a Tier 1 potential customer?" Yes. As I mentioned, we are doing that. "Will there be more design wins in 2021?" Yes, that I can, for sure, promise. We are moving ahead. We have a better sales pipeline than ever before and also with larger customers and partners. So that's why I'm looking forward to 2021 in itself as well. "The best guess of the pilot line?" I don't want to guess that because we don't actually know ourselves. "How many potential F100 customers do you actually have conversations with?" Yes. I can't go into exact details. But there are a lot of F1 -- F100 customers we can talk to. And we have products for many of them. So I mean in general, if you look at the list of technology companies on the F100 based in the U.S., our technology fits well into many of them. So... "Are you selling your solutions? Or are you being contacted more and more?" I think it's a mix. We are being contacted. As I mentioned, just changing the name and getting out and rebranding has really helped us. We are getting contact. But it's also the time that we've been working extremely hard in the ecosystem and we are known. So the people you might have been talking with 5 years ago are now coming back also. So in a way, it's a mix of contacting and not contacting investments. So it's not easy to differentiate sometimes between all of it. "How do you look up on the Terragraph projects?" Yes. I think the Terragraph is quite interesting. And our solution, I think, currently are actually working better than the current Terragraph solution that is using bolt-on. And it's been really hard, in fact, to be part of the Terragraph ecosystem in the future. And hopefully, we'll see what happens with that in the future. "What is your one best USB compared to other market participants?" It's really hard with so many products to pick something on that. But if I pick one from each unit, one of the things, of course, is that in the 60-gigahertz space, we have a chipset that is really, really strong. And we won this prize in 2018. And that's because we have the sort of more bandwidth, more channels and high frequencies and higher upper power in that. When it comes to our team in the Photonics business there, we have really, really strong, strong technology people who can do things in India. We find that not many people in the world can do these different lasers for testers that they're now doing in Fortune 100. So there's definitely a USB for that. "How many different projects are you working on with F100?" That's the same question. "Can you talk a little bit about the negative net results?" Yes. If we look at that on a yearly basis, we have to remember that the negative net result is connected to -- in large part, to the convertible bond with Ampleon. And that is sort of the financial provisioning -- provisions that we had to do. So SEK 111 million, I think it was that is connected to that. And from -- in layman's terms, that's sort of layman in that you need to look around in the balance sheet and so forth. So that is actually not the true effect in any way on cash flow or anything. So it's no cash effect. It's nothing like that. And it was taken in Q3. That's why Q3 looks really, really bad and it still has affected full year. So if you look at it in a positive way, we will not have that in the next year. So that is something to take with you in that sense. So don't look at that number. Look at the adjusted EBIT instead, which was sort of minus SEK 56 million rather for the full year or the adjusted numbers for Q3 where the big effect was. "How many large companies have -- ought to buy Sivers?" I cannot talk about that, of course. "Does the Board have any policy about bids on the whole company?" No. We don't have policies based on that. We would, of course, always review a bid that comes in and the Board has to make a decision. But we are now building. And our interest is to build sort of a long-term big company here, a semiconductor company. And our main focus is not to sort of care about the bids or not. But when that happens, when there is a firm or would be a firm bid, we will, of course, review that and talk about that. But right now, we're focused -- or I am focused on other things than that. "How many Photonics sensor projects have started 2020 for the F100 customer and others?" Yes. So we have a couple of sensor projects, as we mentioned. And I can't go into the real details in everything. But there is a couple of them with the 2 Fortune 100 customers we have. It's -- the number is a bit depending on how you look at it as well because the sensor is connected to a receiver and a sender and all of those things. So it's a different project we are involved in, so to say. "How does the competition look like on top of Qualcomm for your products in that sense?" Yes. So if we look at different areas here, so there are -- in the 5G area, there are sort of -- it's divided into 3 pieces, in my mind. One is the unlicensed spectrum where we more or less only have Qualcomm. I think there also it's sort of out there but I don't think that they still have any sort of leverage in that sense now. And in that sense, we are in a very good position. We have a very strong product. We have -- for everyone who has their own modem or want to do something from us, we are in a very good position. The other piece is then in the licensed band and that's divided into 2 pieces. One is the sort of CPE home market type of things. And Qualcomm is very strong. And there's a few other players like Movandi and others. But for all players that have their own modem and don't want to use Qualcomm, which you have to use both the modem and the RF, they are a niche where we are really strong. And for example, take Cambium and the East European company. They have their own model and they want to use our stuff. So that's really, really good. And the same thing with this new -- the SEK 480 million estimated deal. We have the same thing there. They have their own modem. They work with us with the Fortune -- or with a Tier 1 operator in the U.S. And then you have the sort of open RAN part, where you sort of more -- base stations and stuff, where Ericsson and all those guys are playing. So there you have the internal competition as well as a lot of competition because it's a bit simpler. And that's where we've done this beamformer. And I think there is up to 12 different companies there, at least, and even more depending on how you calculate it. So there, it's a bit more tighter area to work in. But I think that we are getting traction there. We haven't focused so much on that area. But we went into that area together with Ampleon to see if we can do something. And they have been sort of a company we work with to get there. They had not yet been able to get into and finalize any deal with the Tier 1. That was the plan. But we have now signed a couple of contracts in -- and got orders in Asia for samples and evaluations and so forth. Yes. One question, same as before. "Are new customer in negotiations?" Yes. "How is Photonics' sales developing on top of the F100 customer?" Yes. I mean if you look at the segment sales, we are developing a lot based on now. It's a lot of NRE still. And we are trying to move those other customers. We have a long customer list of -- I mean I would say 90% of our sales is something like 17 customers in that list right now. And we are really trying to move all of those other companies also into different kinds of volume for the company in the future. "Can you say something about the cooperation with imec?" And we've talked about that. Yes. We've talked about that's going to be first half this year. We're going to get something out here. I've been looking into that project a bit. And we are -- we have nothing new really to share about that piece but it's progressing. And we have to come back with more information on that later. "What is the biggest risk that the success of your products will not be achieved?" And that's also a very wide question because there's a lot of different products. But I think from a perspective, if we look at the 60-gigahertz stuff, it will be more in connection with our customers' success somewhat. I think our products, there is no risk that they will not succeed in what they do. We already have tested that and it's [indiscernible] and it's working. And we can connect the trains in 200 kilometers per hour. But of course, there could be a customer that have problems and issues with software and other things that sort of draws down the quality business and that. So there's always that risk. If we look at the Photonics' risk in projects, of course, it's always a risk that the customer do not decide to finalize the product. Or they don't think that the market is mature enough to get that product into the market. I think with sort of SEK 85 million invested by the first one, I think that they are on a path that is -- the risk should be smaller for every time we get an order that, that will happen. But there's always that risk. "Chance to get into Ericsson, Nokia and Huawei?" I mean we're constantly working to get into the Tier 1s in the 5G business and I think we have possibilities. Ericsson, in some senses, are really doing a lot of things their own, flat base, for example. And they don't do CPEs, where we are the strongest. So it's hard to say where that could go. But of course, we're having constant discussions with all those Tier 1s. And I think by growing bigger and bigger and so forth, it becomes a better chance to move to the next step in the future, of course. "Do you have any kind of licensing deals with your customers?" No. "Do the -- the income comes to about 30% in Wireless, 70% [indiscernible]. What do you think this distribution will look like into 2021?" Yes. That would be giving a forecast. But I think that right now, at least we can say like this, that Wireless is the business in short term that might be growing percentage-wise quicker. But also, of course, coming from a smaller turnover, that is easier. But that's what's happening, I would say. "Is there any 50-71 chips that can be compared with yours?" There is one from Peraso. And it's a long story, but Peraso have had problems with financing and with a customer that sued them and so forth. But we're still unclear if they actually are still in the market. We know that, that chip has a very high power consumption compared to RFs and so forth. So I do not see it really as a big threat. And I think we're seeing that we can win customers that they have traditionally had. So from that perspective, I think our absolutely strongest area in the 5G business is in the unlicensed spectrum from those frequencies. "Do you feel [indiscernible] is a strong competitor to your customers in 50-71 space?" I think they are a competitor in some sense to, for example, ADTRAN and CCS and others. But they don't cover -- as you -- that they're using the bolt-on chipset. They don't really cover the upper frequencies in the beamforming solutions. So I think in the long run, that will be quite important. But short term, they're selling -- sort of trying to have low pricing and so forth. So they could be a competitor in that area, of course. "Compared to other similar products, how well and easy can your product be integrated with a complete system?" Yes. It's a good question. And again, I think I have to answer that on 5G side here. And it's -- one thing that we've done and worked really hard is to work within the ecosystem and get partners like IDT. Now Renesas and NXP have pre-integrated things. And I think a really good thing of that is to show that 8devices now can deliver something in maybe less than a year. So that shows that the integration time can really be short if we've done all the work and sort of get rid of all the things that might be hindering people to get quickly to the market. "How does the competition look like in the project segment of 5G?" I think that's been answered already. "When do we get more info on the design wins 2020 September regarding fixed wireless access?" I'm not sure which one that is pointing to. It could be the August, you mean, the SEK 80 million or SEK 90 million estimates? I mean we're -- we're working for that. 2023, we're doing new chipsets. We're working really hard on that. And I don't think we have any new info in some while. We are getting revenue. That's part of the growing revenue as NRE in that project right now. But we cannot go into more details than that. "How do you look upon the competitive situation in Wireless and Photonics area?" Again, I think I just went through all of that. "Did you consider COVID to be a big risk regarding partner customer volume rollout in 5G Wireless as well as in market?" I think it is a risk, not a big risk but there is a risk. And it will have effects in certain areas, as I mentioned in the call already. And depending on -- now, I mean everybody is talking about these new strains. Will there be a third wave? And anybody's guess is as good as mine in that sense. But I think we showed in the fourth quarter that we are quite resilient and we showed for the full year that we have been resilient against, at least, sort of losing in what we've done. We've had a good year even in macro. I don't think it's a big risk but there will be -- quarters will go up and down still, as I said before. So that's it. "Is there any fixed date for the NASDAQ?" Yes. So the target -- we can never have a fixed date. But the target for us, as I mentioned, is June now. But we are not the one who decides. We are doing all the work we can. We make sure that we have all processes and everything in place. But it's, in the end, the NASDAQ auditor who decides if they can put us up to the listing committee in June or not. "Well done with the rebranding work. Can you see improvements in the market related to that? And how do you measure that?" Well, that's a good question. And of course, we can improve our branding. That's a never-ending job. And we're constantly working on it with both teams. And we're adding new people into the Photonics team, where we will work more on that. And we're measuring, of course. We're working really hard on inbound marketing things now within the company. So I think that is things that we're constantly trying to improve. "How do you actually plan to actually finance the build-out of the pilot lines? Do you need to have more money for that?" Yes. As I said several times before, when that happens, not the pilot line maybe but the big lines, depending on what that needs to be done, we will need to finance that. And that's a really good problem to have, I would say, since that's going to be a big breakthrough for the company. And I don't think anyone would be negative to finance that when that happens. So I think we're in a good place there. "What about Corning customers and others?" Yes. I mentioned we have customers and we're delivering. And some of that SEK 22 million that was sold is also going to that kind of chipset. But the phone market has been quite slow, I would say, overall for us. And we've been selling to China and India but they're still small volumes. And we haven't seen any uptake in that as we maybe hoped for some time back. "Are you going to change your name on Twitter, @siverssemis instead of the one with siversima?" I think I actually changed it on Twitter but I have to check that again. I actually think I changed it. So... "A chance to get into Ericsson?" Yes. Same again. "Do you have any news on the project on the railways?" Yes. As I mentioned, there are some delays there. And Blu Wireless are working with evo rail. I would recommend all of you to scan -- although searching Google for evo rail, which is the new name of First Rail's sort of company that is the customer's customer to us and Blu. And you will see some really cool videos on what they're doing with this and so forth. But I think they are a bit delayed. And with very few people traveling by trains, there is maybe not so much need for gigabit speeds even if I think that this is the time to build out. But I think we'll see that coming in this year. "How strong is your IP situation?" I mean from a know-how on IP, we are really strong. From a patent point of view, a lot of the work is know-how. But we are strongly building out papers as well. But that's not the main thing here for us. It's more know-how and how to use the technology and all the recipes in the Photonics business, how do we do with the lasers as well as in 5G. How do you build the best power amplifiers and all of those things. But a lot of the sort of analog business and circuits, how you build them has been around for many, many years. It's just how you do them and miniaturize them and make them smaller. So many of the patents have actually gone out. You cannot patent things. It's more how you actually do it in the right way. And I would say, in that area, we have really good teams that can deliver on that. "How does it look for your 2D chipset and 5G?" Really good interest, I would say. And as you've seen, for example, the 8devices is based on that. So that was the first order coming in very quickly based on it. So I think that product is really right in time and the right specification. And it's actually based on discussions with the Terragraph team, for example, how that solution should look like. "Do you have any comment on possibility to enter the data center business area within Photonics?" Yes. I mean we are in talks there. And as we mentioned before, that's sort of the Fortune 100 customers we are trying to get into. But it's taking a very long time compared to what we've been hoping for. But we're still working on it. "When will you do forecast reports?" Yes. I'm not sure when we will. We're having that discussion now. Also getting that feedback from the pre-auditors and so going into the main list. So that is a Board decision if we will start doing that forecast. But so far, I mean we have been a company who are in an early phase and in a growth phase. And it's difficult to do forecasts but we might need to start that as we're growing into the suit now into next step in the company. "Biggest challenges/risks?" I think I was into that some parts. We'll leave that for now. "How do you see the risk that small-time companies are start to introduce their own chips?" Yes. I think that when it comes to Photonics, I mean they are not going to go down on that level, that they're going to have their own fab and they need to do that. So I think that risk for Photonics is very low. We are exactly the right level to be able to address the tiny type of companies. When it comes to Wireless, many of them will actually buy that from things. I don't -- I haven't seen anyone that makes their own RF chipsets today. So -- and I think there is an opportunity for next-generation chipsets to get close and companies and to jointly develop sort of the best 5G or millimeter-wave chipsets in the future. So I'm not too worried about that. "If and when there is a deal with F100, what do you expect to release to the market about the deal and the customer?" I mean we're constantly releasing different deals. But I assume you're meaning the sort of the final deal to go into the next step. And yes, of course, we will release that as soon as we have information. And according to the market regulations and the inside, we are bound to release it when we get there. "New products coming this year?" Yes, there are new products. I can't talk about them yet. "Do you think you will have any problems recruiting the talent that you need?" Yes. It's always a challenge to recruit. And this is -- both areas are really, really hot. I think Photonics, for example, might have the biggest challenges in this area. We are trying now to sort of work all angles. And even the company branding is really important with people choosing the company and look interesting. And we're working on that with the branding as well. So it won't be easy but I think we're hopeful that we will be able to add the resources we need even if it might take some longer times for certain places. And then we'll use headhunters and so forth to secure that, that happens. "Is NXP collaboration going well?" It's going well. We have a good relationship but it's slow. And also looking at the products we have in that area, we're working on the new product. And I think it has an even better fit for that. So as I said, when we went into it, it will take some time before we get out there. We work for sort of 2, 3 years with IP and we're down about a year now, a bit more. So it will still take time. At this time, another one. Let's take this one. Yes. Okay. I think that wasn't answered. "Some information on Siemens?" No. Nothing new there. They're working on the stuff. "Are you alone in the work for the 14 gigahertz?" I think it's interesting, too. I mean there are some products now that has the bandwidth in some sense of this 14. But when it comes to sort of 5G and the beamforming and all that, we are probably the market leader in that area, I would say, even if they also have a chip but it's far from the standards we have. Okay. Yes. Yes. Now I get it. Someone mentioning. It says Sivers -- Anders Sivers [ up there ]. Yes. That's the wrong one, actually. I've updated but not on this slide. Thank you for that, Anders. The other Anders, we mentioned. I will do that. "Can you see negative impact as the employees of Sivers are working more from home during the pandemic?" Yes. I think we all are affected. And some are more and some are less. We have had the internal sort of reviews on that. And people are allowed to come in and work in the office if they like. It's up to them. We are trying to secure that people are not getting sick. And so far, we have been successful. I think -- but everybody, I think, wants to go back to normal. There is no one who wants to stay in this forever. So hopefully, that goes away and we can get back to it. But I think we're delivering really well. And from an international perspective, it's been really productive actually to be able to work from -- via Teams and Zoom and have customer meetings. And we won a lot of this just via Zoom with companies we never met. "Why do you think you are quite small in Asia?" I think we haven't been present there too much yet. We have increased now with our sort of resellers. We have resellers in India. We have resellers in China. We have actually 2, I think, in China now. We're updating 1 in Japan and so forth. So I think it's just the time. And also the Asian market from the 5G perspective is a bit behind than the U.S. But I think that 2021 will probably be the year where we see more of that. And revenues, I would say, for the Asian markets should start growing in 2022. "Would it be easy for Chinese manufacturers do a teardown of your product and make a copy?" No. It's not easy to do that. It's so many things that needs to happen. And also, even if you do a teardown, you need to have the right process, you have to sort of use the same fab and you have to do a lot of things. I don't think it's too easy. It will take them many years to do it. And we are already working on the next-generation chipsets. So even if they -- when they're ready, we're already in the next generation. So I'm not too worried about that. "How big is the expected market globally for unlicensed 60 gigahertz in the near future?" I mean the market is -- I actually don't have the numbers in my head right now. But the total sum, I can go into that in the next meeting. And I've shown the slides about that in all the other meetings. I can't remember the exact amount. I mean the growth when it comes to volumes are looking really large from small volumes to high volumes. "Did the meeting with the Swedish government result in any interest regarding Internet speed of trains?" Unfortunately, I would say no. They have chosen a different path with the sort of operators in the picture rather than go for a dedicated sort of track-to-train system that evo rail can deliver and they are using. I think that's the wrong path. But I made my point very clear. And I think it was Anders Ygeman who told me that, that was a song. And they were -- I was quite hard on them when they went for the other decision. But that's how it is. We'll see. I don't think they will succeed and give any real gigabit speeds on the trains in Sweden with the solutions they are looking at now. You can probably get it when you're on the station or if you're -- but when you're really going on the train all the way to -- between Stockholm and Gothenburg on -- far from any sort of large cities, they would not get gigabit speeds with the solution they are talking about now. And the solution we have with Blu Wireless and evo rail will give you more gigabit speeds of the train. So I think they're making a mistake here and that would be very clear in the future, I think. "Semtech learn about satellite communication in the future?" Yes. I mean Semtech now is for base stations and stuff but of course, I mean we can get into other things within the SATCOM in the future. And as I talked about in the Capital Markets Day, there are many surrounding areas we can get into in the future like radar, like SATCOM. But where -- we need to focus on what we're doing now and deliver on those things first. "Do you still have recent meetings with the Fortune 100?" Yes. "Any progress regarding how licensed EU money from the [ collisions ] to do X-ray build-out?" We are applying for some kind of things there. But we'll see on what's happened on that. But I think that we'll tell more about that in the future. "Any news about the American defense customer?" Yes. I don't know if I told you that last time. But we have had a lot of things going on. And they've been testing and run sort of smaller channels with bandwidths and long distances and testing and so forth. But I think we'll be seeing more of that. "Will the U.S. office be in Silicon Valley?" Yes. That's the plan. Three last questions now; I must close. "In the worldwide shortage of chips affect business progress?" No. That's actually not because we -- most of the effect from that is in CMOS technologies. We're using silicon-germanium and RF SOI and C5 compound, which we're doing. So we are not affected at all, actually, by that. And it's more the automotive industry is. So that's -- we're on the right side of that. Another also on Silicon Valley office again. "Champagne or cava when you close the next big deal?" Yes. Of course, it should be champagne, I know. Okay. Thank you very much. I think this is all for now. And thank you for listening in. And I'm now on my way to the next things. And we will see interviews online later on. So have a great day.