Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to this third quarter 2023 webcast for Sivers Semiconductors. My name is Anders Storm, and today I'm also extra happy to say that I also have our group CEO, Lottie Saks, with us. Lottie has recently joined the company in June 2023. But prior to that, she have been working within Sivers Semiconductors Board for 2.5 years driving, for example, the Audit Committee. She recently left Haldex and joined Sivers, and have a long history in working on NASDAQ and especially mid-cap companies like Sivers. So I'm very happy to have her here and very welcome, and she will join us today and talk a bit more about the numbers. So the agenda for today is we're going to have an executive summary, sales overview, financial overview, and a market and business update in general, and then a summary and outlook, and as normal a Q&A in the end. So looking at the executive summary, we're really, really happy to see that the growth is keep on coming for the company, 96% year-to-date. And we're also confirming the 100% growth outlook. And we have had a strong order intake and we expect also having a strong order intake going forward. Net sales came in at SEK 58.3 million, which is 107% growth. There has been a very good quarter with, for example, our largest product volume order ever for the company with $5 million here in the SATCOM arena, which will be delivered, and I'm going to go in more to that. We also added a very strong strategic adviser, a former GlobalFoundries Senior VP, Bami Bastani. We also got an extremely important order in the optical I/O and the high-performance computing arena for $1 million, and that is sort of to get to be able to, for the future, secure the generative AI area. We also got a second round of prototype orders for a Tier 1 5G infrastructure vendor. And hopefully, that is the sort of last order before it goes to volume. We also signed a contract and got an order for SEK 4.6 million from a SATCOM network provider, which is sort of underpinning the number of SATCOM customers that Sivers has. We also got a defense research project with DARPA, the first ever for Sivers in the U.S. when it comes to funding in that way. And we have announced now rolling 12 months, SEK 330 million in PRs. Then of course, we have a lot of order intake that we don't officially make peers for. So if we look at the overall outlook that we gave in the Q4 report, so we are still very happy that we are following this scenario in this challenging market, and we are very strong and seeing a strong future as well, which means that we are going to have 100% net sales for the full year. We are now at 96% for the year. And we expect to have an adjusted EBITDA during the second half of the year, and we're already seeing that in some months here, but it's too early, of course, to share anything on that. But in general, we are seeing a very positive directive. And with the net sales of SEK 162.5 million so far this year, this means that we will be above SEK 100 million of sales in the last quarter. And then you can, of course, calculate yourself that positive EBITDA is definitely in the grasp for the company. So looking a bit more on the details for the Q3 numbers, again SEK 58.3 million, a record Q3, we never had so much, 170% growth. We're also improving our adjusted EBITDA margin as well as our EBITDA. So we're halving our loss and this is definitely moving us in the right direction. Also to compare, we actually had less R&D capitalization this quarter. So the numbers should be even better. And then on the EBIT, we also can see a very good improvement. A lot of the negative numbers in the EBIT is the depreciation of the acquisition of MixComm, for example. So that is noncash flow dependent. If we look at the full year, SEK 162 million sales, 96% growth and adjusted the EBITDA at minus SEK 40 million, but then we should also remember that the adjusted EBITDA is, in this case, there is SEK 22.8 million R&D capitalization less in 2023 where we now have some very strong customer development rather in that. So that is a great improvement on comparison year-on-year. And of course, looking at our long-term net sales, what -- where we started in 2016, we were at about SEK 18 million, and now we're forecasting SEK 266 million, which is a fantastic journey we have so far. Even if there has been some challenges during the pandemic part, we are now seeing the growth coming for the company as well. And one very interesting effect, of course, of this fantastic growth is that we now can show for the 12-month rolling here that we have sold for SEK 212 million, which is actually exactly 100%. And looking back to 4 quarters we've had, that's been fantastic quarters; 113% in Q4 last year, 113% in Q1, a bit less in Q2 with 68% and now a growth of 107%. This is, I think, unprecedented in any company we're seeing now in the market. So we're very happy with that. And also looking at our overall metrics. We have had really strong growth in investors over these years, going from about 1,500 to 21,000 investor. Institutional investors are growing and we'll talk more about that. We're up in 21% there and the market cap is around SEK 1.3 billion. So moving in the right direction on all key metrics as well. Looking at the sales for the last rolling 12 months, as I mentioned, SEK 330 million orders in all different areas where SATCOM is the main driver in many areas right now, but also having a couple of orders in the total of $1 million range that we have shared in 5G from December '22 and February '23. Also, of course, the Ayar Labs and our famous Fortune 100 customer from the U.S. have also added a lot of value into the company [ reset ]. And then, of course, we have not shared any of the smaller orders. So normally, we don't share orders where the net sale of the yearly growth is less than 5%. So there's a lot of sales below this that we haven't shown. So the pipeline looks really strong for the future as well. And specifically, we'll talk about the SATCOM volume orders that are now coming that we are really happy to see moving in a very positive direction. Hence, sort of the significant events in Q3, as I mentioned, the SATCOM order, I will go into details on that, as well as really do a deep dive today on the order from Ayar Labs and the SEK 11 million there and how high performance computing will change, and we will support generative AI in the future. Also a bit more details on the prototype order as well as the contract with the SATCOM customer and the DARPA contract. So if you look at Ayar Labs first, this is a very important order. As we all know that AR has several suppliers, but Sivers has been sort of in the main pole position the whole time. And we have been the company they're demoing this with. And to get the confirmation that they want us to be part of the delivery of what they're doing and what they're getting to the market is quite important. And this project is for a different type of lasers that we will do for them, and we see that this will sort of start seeing volumes in '24. And this is sort of the last step in qualification to get those ships into the right quality. We look at the major one system vendor. This is sort of a new prototype order, which is quite important, of course. This is a long project. There's been a lot of changes, as I mentioned before. And as we talked about in the [indiscernible] as well. The 5G market has not sort of taken off as many hopes, but we have sort of been able to grow very well in other verticals and so forth. But this is a good progress, and we see a great future for 5G as well here. And if this comes to fruition, this is going to be a very important project for us. And hopefully, this is the second and last build before possible ramp in volumes for this customer. The DARPA Award is extremely important for us as well because we are now -- we're trying to be more U.S.-centric. Getting funding from this kind of project is important, especially connected to ship backs and other things. And as mentioned in the press release, we think that this is just a start, and we'll see 5 to 10x more in these type of funding's going forward as well. Then we get to the top-tier SATCOM provider, and this is sort of to design an antenna and a flat panel phased array. We are recognizing this the second half of this year and the first quarter '24, and this is a quite large SATCOM company who owns their own satellite. So this just gives us sort of an in-route also to another part of the ecosystem here rather than just a normal terminal vendor. So also an important step, even if it's a smaller order than the others we see. And of course, the big SATCOM order that came 21st of August, that's a $5 million or SEK 55 million. These are going to be delivered now in Q4 and in Q1 mainly. And this is just the start of a very interesting ramp. And we have sort of received forecast from our customers, including this customer for the coming like 10 to 12 quarters, and the growth is going to be an extremely important part of our sort of growth the coming years. And this is sort of securing a growth for the company that definitely is in the making. And why is that? So if we look at the flat panel raise in general, they are on a TAM level, growing exponentially now and forward. And of course, our customers will follow this path as well. And the overall TAM for this market is about SEK 50 billion for that type of beam formers and chipsets we supply. So those nonbinding forecasts we received for the coming 12 quarters, they will continue to drive our growth as we see ahead of us. So this is just a start of a very interesting journey for us. So with that, I will hand over temporarily to Lottie. Here we go.

Thank you, Anders. And I'm really happy to be part of the Sivers team, and I will provide some CFO perspective of the Q3 report. I'm really happy about the report and it shows several good signs in the quarter that we are looking for in terms of making sure that we are set up the business in the right way for future growth. So looking at the quarterly sales, as Anders mentioned, we grew 107% with 210% growth in the Wireless business. So if you look at the graph at the top, you can see that, yes, we grew SEK 30 million. SEK 24 million of those came from Wireless, but we see strong growth in both business units. So overall, 107%; 38% growth in Photonics and 210% in Wireless. And I think what we are really happy about is the balance and distribution of our sales and our customers. So looking at 40% of the sales in the quarter in Photonics and 60 in Wireless. And also in terms of regions, we have 35% growth in U.S. and 62% in Europe. And I think in particular, what we are happy about is that we have seen the product sales picking up. So growing from fairly low levels, growing 109% in the quarter and share of product sales increasing to 31%. So NRE development sales is now representing 68% of total sales. Yes, I think we can move. And again, looking at the year-to-date revenue for Q3 close, we have 96% growth, which is close to the financial target that we have issued of 100%. And I think also that is a strong confirmation. And on top of that, what Anders showed on the rolling 4 quarter basis actually are on par with 100% growth. So that's a really strong message that we see. And again, strong growth in both business units, Wireless with 193%, Photonics 33%. And thanks to the strong growth in Wireless that has now passed in size and the importance of our total business. So Wireless represents 59% of total sales and Photonics 41%. And at the same time, then Europe is right now growing faster than U.S. So we have 60% of the revenue in Europe. And on a year-to-date basis, the product sale represents 21%. So again, coming from a slightly lower level, but with a strong Q3 product sales we're now up to 21%. And putting this quarter in perspective, as you can see, we're coming from several strong quarters. And you don't see the growth for Q1 here, but I think that was also on 113% or similar. So we're on the same level as a really, really strong in Q1 with SEK 58 million in sales. And you can here really see a step change from 2022 Q3 than having these 4 strong quarters now, showing a completely new level of trading pattern. And I think in particular, the graph on the right-hand side is what is important. So what do we want to track and make sure of? Yes, we are growing. But as you can see in the Q3 pillar, the SEK 18 million of product sale picking up to a new level, having 31% product sales. So we have been on that type of level before if you look at Q3 '22 as well. But then, of course, the revenue in absolute value was on a completely different level. So strong growth in absolute numbers, but also high share of product sales. That's how we can scale on the business, and that's the signs of that we have, I call it, recurring revenue, but that means that we can scale to new levels. Slight deep dive into respective business unit. If we look at Photonic sales, again strong and stable growth. So of course, in perspective to Wireless, we see the sales in Photonics on a slightly lower level, but 38%, 33%, that's really strong and stable levels. And also in Photonics, we can see in Q3 that product sales increased. So SEK 9 million out of the total SEK 23 million came from product sales and the share of product sales a 37%. On the right-hand side, you see the year-to-date numbers, where the growth is coming from. And here you can see that the majority of the growth actually comes from products. So that's right now growing faster than the NRE part. On a year-to-date basis, product sales is 26%, and the majority of the sales is in U.S. And for Wireless, again, we see several quarters with way over 100% and even 200% growth, so coming from the lower levels in 2022. And we want to point out that from February 2022, the MixComm acquisition was included in full. So this is really growing now year-over-year on a comparable basis. So showing strong organic growth really in this business. So again, in Q3, looking at strong product sales, of course, on a year-to-date basis, that's on a slightly lower level. We have 17%, but this is really what we are expecting to see now going forward further growth in that area. And then sales, yes, fantastic. But what about our ability to turning that into profit and improved margin levels? So we're looking then at the sales development and we have the EBITDA and also the adjusted EBITDA. And the adjusted EBITDA is where we have operational comparable numbers, meaning we have taken away the revaluation of options. We have taken away restructuring costs. So that's providing us a good measurement of what the underlying business, how that is performing. So again, I mean, improving the profitability level on EBITDA with 57% in the quarter. I think that really shows that we are able to turn the sales into improved profitability level and on adjusted EBITDA level as well, so 46% improvement. And Anders already commented that when we compare to last year, we also are allocating our resources more on commercial projects rather than building our own products. So there's less capitalized product development impact in the EBITDA. So in the quarter, that impact is SEK 2.2 million, and on a year-to-date basis, SEK 22.8 million, which is important also for comparability. Yes. So I think if we conclude the key takeaways from this report and the signs that we are looking for, again really strong growth, 107%, and a strong level in absolute value as well. Both business units are growing on a really strong and healthy levels. So we have balance in the business. Year-to-date growth, 96%, close to our financial targets, and we have been able to turn the improved growth into EBITDA as well. So improving that level with SEK 11.5 million or 57%. And in particular, the signs that we are looking for and are really happy about is the increased share of product sales and successful savings that supports the improved margins.

Thank you, Lottie. And as we hoped as a deep down we'll help you a little bit to analyze the company better, and we will keep on having Lottie on these calls from now on. So any questions in the future, you want anything more in this area, please tell us. So if we look at the overall market update here as well, I mean, we are working in a lot of megatrends. Those megatrends are now turning into sales and volumes. And of course, we're really happy to see this. In the DATACOM, in the silicon photonics, in the SATCOM and the autonomous driving as well, we haven't talked so much about LiDAR this time, but it's also an order that just came in the end of Q2 and so forth. And as well as the consumer sensing that we are making progress with our Fortune 100 and I'm going to go into this. So now I'm going to focus a little bit more on a couple of the trends. One is the sort of high-performance computing, which is driven by the silicon photonics revolution. And we have a very strong position there. And I will go through that and there will be a couple of videos and a few other things here. Again, this is based on an actual contract with Ayar Labs. And Ayar Labs and we have been working for quite some time on this together, and we are going to most of the fares and demoing 4 terabits of data here and there, and are very happy to see that this market is developing also with the giant companies that they are working with in this area. So to understand this ecosystem and because we are way back in the ecosystem, I think this picture will give you an interesting aspect of the AI ecosystem and how the next-generation AI will be driven by optical I/O here and optical I/O is a way of sending the data with photons instead of electrons in the future. And if you look at the left-hand side here, we have the Bard and the Open AI and the software who will drive this, then you have the cloud services where they put the software on, and then they need to have servers and CPUs and GPUs that are sort of developed by NVIDIA, Intel, Hewlett Packard. All of them investors in Ayar Labs, which is our customer, and then they have the optical I/O solution with companies like Ayar, Lightmatter and others. And of course, then you have the light sources, the sort of fundamental piece we will send the light, and that is what Sivers is doing rather than sending electrons in this case. We have competitors, of course. In a big market like this, you need to expect to have that. So Lumentum and MACOM is 2 of them. And -- but this is a very healthy, interesting ecosystem that is now coming to fruition. And as you know, always in healthy ecosystem, there is a lot of investments going in. And over the last 12 months, there's been sort of $400 million going into smaller companies and Ayar Labs have received $155 million total from HP, Intel, NVIDIA and others as well as larger institutional investors. Then there are other companies who also receive money and Sivers is working with those as well. But to understand this, I think you should start from where is -- what is driving this? So this is a very good example of a very recently bought Tesla cluster for sort of autonomous driving. So Tesla has bought this, and I don't exactly know the price of this, but it's a couple of billion dollars, I think. And they are using 720 nodes 8x NVIDIA sort of Tensor Core CPUs here, which is sort of almost 6,000 GPUs that needs to communicate in these racks and these data centers. And this communication between the GPUs today is often within the computer done on electrons rather than with optical connection. You have optical connections between the racks, which is today, but that's a bit too small as well and also a bottleneck in a way, and you need to increase that up to the sort of speeds of 4 to 8 terabits of data that we can do together with Ayar. So what we actually do here, we also sort of one of the more important thing here is that we're also lowering the energy cost by up to 90% here because it is much more energy efficient to send light rather than sending electrons in copper. So talking between the GPUs will now go much quicker and with much less energy. So that is sort of a double whammy in this case, which is extremely important, of course, and that's why there is so much investments going into this. And therefore, I wanted to show a video also explaining this for how it works. But I need to go into another place, so you can hear the sound here, hopefully. Let me see if this works. [Audio Gap] Yes, I'm getting information here that the sound doesn't go through, but we'll fix the sound afterwards in the presentation. Then you can see the video there. If it doesn't go through, it's not through, but. So getting information that someone hears the sounds, but some not so. [Audio Gap] Okay. So, yes, I'm back here. And I hope the videos went through. Some could hear, some couldn't, but it will be fixed in the after-work here. So if you want to understand more of this generative AI and further reading, we were very happy to be able to get in connection with Wall Street Journal where they made an article about this. And I got this pitch to Isabelle and Isabelle brought in the rest of the ecosystem. So this is a very good article to understand how photons will sort of used instead of electrons. Also, we've also written an insight paper just recently together with Ayar Labs around this and how it works, and you have the links here and you can read on that on our homepage. And I'm also very happy to share that in the Capital Markets Day, there will be Ayar Labs and GlobalFoundries coming to talk about these things together with us. So this is a very interesting market and a huge opportunity for the company in the future, and we are a very intricate part of the ecosystem. Now I'm also going to talk a little bit about the consumer sensing and our Fortune 100 customer. This is also a piece that is quite sort of built on silicon photonics and to get this into consumer sensing. So as you might know, we have been working now with this U.S. Fortune 100 for actually 5 years for sensor for consumer devices. Overall, we've been sort of getting about SEK 170 million NRE invested over this first year, including the delivery now in Q3, which is sort of up about SEK 7 million, SEK 8 million from last quarter. With this, this year we have had SEK 30 million year-to-date in sales, and we have delivered the first 30,000 chipsets for qualification. We are still awaiting the results, but we hope to get them as soon as possible to understand the next phase here. And as stated in the [indiscernible], there has been an RFP/RFQ around this where we have looked at the volumes. And they're of course, starting ramping at 700 millions of dollars all the way up to billions of dollars here, which you shared from before. And I would say that the volumes are in the higher end, growing and will be growing as well in the sense of this. And also, we can see that in total here, they've invested a lot to get to the market. So as we talked about before, we think that this is more when than what anymore. So it's more waiting for the next phase here. Okay. So looking at the expansion of the fab and so forth, I think we need to look at how we can, in a sense, get the fab up and running and, of course, delivering on these things. And we have been looking at 3 different things here. One of the things is, of course, a greenfield operation or as we also call it, acquire and fix, and then build out capacity with a third party. And where we actually come with 4 right now is with this third-party capacity, and we've been talking to a lot of customers or partners over the last sort of 3 months. And we found a very interesting phase here where we could call the hybrid, which would sort of reduce the investment from our side quite heavily. Even if there are money, of course, from chip acts like the European chip acts, there's SEK 43 billion, in the U.S. chip acts to SEK 39 billion. So there is a lot of funding out there, but if we can get to a hybrid solution, I will talk more about that. So if we look at the hybrid model, today the company is purchasing our, what's called the InP, the substrates from outside. And today, the suppliers actually even in the U.K. And this is outsourced and has been all the time and they have a huge capacity to deliver. Then we have Step 2, 3 and 4 here today in-house in the company, and that is sort of where the investment needs to go, of course, to increase capacity and step. In this hybrid solution, we already have fairly good capacity with modest investments actually in Step 2 and 3. Sivers could sort of increase our volumes quite heavily. So the Step 4 is where sort of the more investment needs to go in if you do it in-house. But talking to several different vendors now, we see that there is a possibility to actually optimize this fab and do it sort of in a hybrid model. So the full wafer, a fab testing singulation and shipping could be done with another partner. The good thing with this is, of course, that that sort of -- it doesn't require large volumes in CapEx. It also secures our sort of most important pieces in -- for our own IP and so forth, and also the value add that Sivers makes here is going to be very important. So this is sort of an important step, and we will talk more about that in the coming Capital Markets Day as well, where you will get a deep dive into this. So if we summarize everything, again, the outlook, we can confirm it. It goes really, really well for the company. We're seeing a fantastic pipeline also in the future with new customers and new projects. If we look at the shareholders, there has been sort of some changes. What we're most happy to see is actually that all the sort of AP funds has increased their shareholding. They bought, during the quarter, about 3.2 million shares from another fund that sold out. Otherwise, we have sort of more or less the same kind of shareholders on the list. So if we summarize it again, net sales almost SEK 60 million, growth of 107% year-to-date growth 96%, 12 months rolling spot-on 100%, and sales of SEK 212 million. That is a huge up since 2016 when we did about SEK 18 million; it's 10x growth. We have sort of an order that's coming in and Lottie talked more about that volume production. That's going to be the leverage now to grow the company and keep on growing the company for many years ahead. And also Ayar Labs, as I just showed you, this is a huge market, extremely interesting with the big players and straight into one of the sort of major growth areas where everybody is excited now, AI, and we are as excited as well. 100% growth as I mentioned, positive EBITDA for during Q4, which is now going to be the Q4 for this and announced PRs for SEK 330 million, and we are quite sure we'll keep on announcing PRs in the coming quarter as well. And we're really happy to see everything progressing in the right path. Before we go to Q&A, I also want to update everybody about the Capital Markets Day. We moved it a little bit due to that we have been able to talk to customers and get the customers in this. So we'll do that in the afternoon on the 21st of November. We're still sort of working on the wireless customers here. We can't explain them, but we have Ayar Labs CEO coming, and we have GlobalFoundries silicon photonics piece coming to this Capital Markets Day, and we're working on a couple of others. So within a couple of weeks, we'll send out the press release and invite everybody more formally. But this is going to be a very full day with information to everybody that people have been asking for. So with that, we are in the Q&A part, and we have about a bit less today because we have talked a bit more, but I will try to take your questions. And as always, this is a bit of a little window for me. So I'm going to see if I can open it up a little bit here and then go through the questions.

Any update from the other F100s? So no direct update currently. We are working on the different projects. As we said, it's gone a bit slower, but we are constantly talking to a lot of Fortune 100 customers in general. To date, we have been informed that you are working with 3 SATCOM customers. Are you working with more SATCOM customers if so? Yes, we are. Can you tell us anything about the size of those companies and when you can expect any traction? We are working with more, as I said, and can't really go into traction, but the size range from smaller to medium-sized type of SATCOM customers. But the market is very, very large. Even smaller customers can provide a quite heavy revenue, I would say. Can you update anything on the 2 collaborations in India regarding 5G, if any concrete customers have been signed through the collaborations? So we are working with WiSig, that's the name. And WiSig is a very interesting company here. They have got funding and they're working hard to get this to the market. I think it's now during Q4, they're actually going to do the testing and so forth. If they have signed up specific customers, I don't really know on their end, but they have signed a contract with us, and we've been delivering on that. And that's part of the revenue that is not seen in the PRs, but an important piece. And the Indian market is going to be maybe the driver of 5G when it's sort of -- 5G millimeter wave when it sort of starts again in the sense. You're right in Q3 that you work with other companies like Ayar Labs. Can you say more when we will hear about these companies? I mean we are constantly working on trying to sort of talk more about them, and we are working on contracts with them. And then, of course, it is a bit sensitive in which company we can sort of go out with. But I would say in the coming 6 months, you'll probably hear more. A question about WiSig again, so that we already answered. You changing the rhetoric concerning building for tonnage capacity from acquiring towards outsourcing, what lies behind this? It's just behind that the project we started and we press released in May that we should look at these things. And we have, during that project, been able to find very interesting partners that can provide, as I mentioned, the fourth step in this. And of course, funding is always something that you would like to -- you have as low as possible and the companies today, partly fabless. And if we can sort of be hybrid fabless in the sense of this growth, I think this is a very good opportunity. And as I said, we'll talk more about this in our Capital Markets Day, but this is a very interesting development because we never thought about that could be a hybrid solution. And now we found that possibility. So that is an option that we absolutely pursuing currently. In the past, you've shown a slide where different Photonics products where projects were projected. Some of these projects were to go into volume during '24, according to the slide, can you please? So I would say that you are referring to the Capital Markets Day, where we provided some sort of project time labels for when different projects will go start into volumes. And I would say that update on those details might be part of the Capital Markets Day. But we are, of course, part of introducing that. And that is part of the revenue already today in some sense that we're growing the Photonics business by 38% as we showed. Can we expect revenue accelerating considerably regarding your customers within LiDAR when we can expect it? Yes, so that project, we got a $1.3 million signed end of July, I would say. And that project is sort of now going to be more or less a year of development. So that is the sort of front figure company when it comes to LiDAR. We have a couple of other LiDAR customers as well, which is working on the same type of thing. So I would say accelerating hardware sales, it would be plus 12 months at least. But when those are qualified and can go into LiDAR solutions, we'll know more about those volumes. How is the outlook for '24 looking compared to '23? So we haven't sort of shared any outlook yet for '24. But in general, we are very positive that we will see a very good growth also for '24. But we will come back with that and how the growth will look like in a later stage. In Q4, you stated you are capitalized towards profitability. Do you mean that you won't be emitting more shares? No. So in that sense, what I'm writing in the [indiscernible] is that what we see now is we are flattening out on the burn rate, so to speak. And with the growth we have on topline and getting to a positive EBITDA, we have it more in our own hands to handle this. And so we are in a positive situation there, I would say. Can you state that you are working with 3 other optical I/O companies? What do you mean? Is it the same kind of collaboration as with AR or other collaborations different? What volumes can you expect for 3 of those customers? So it is type of the same like we're do in lasers. Those lasers are going to be similar. It's going to be different arrays as we do for AR and so forth. So, yes, there is interesting projects, and we'll try to inform the market as we go when we sign more and bigger contracts. So the volumes, I cannot really comment on yet, but let's talk about that later. Will you give guidance '24? If so, when? This is a discussion internally right now, and we'll come back to that. You stated Ayar will deliver volumes from '24. What does that mean in revenue for Sivers in '24? We have not sort of announced anything for those yet. What we announced is the $1 million order, which will be part of the revenue going for the 12 months from the order basically. Do you prefer -- okay, someone asking me a question about beer here. Will -- what level of risk is there a competitor with the greater production capacity seen to a lower-risk supplier option with the Tier 1 opportunity? And how do you balance with this Sivers level of differentiation on the product itself? Tier 1 opportunities -- I'm not sure. If you refer to Tier 1 in the Fortune 100 sense, I think -- I mean we've been working sort of 5 years now with that customer and spent a lot of time in R&D and very complex photonic devices, which you can't just sort of crank out anywhere. So I think the competition is going to be very difficult for competitors to do anything. If you talk about the Tier 1s in the wireless business, of course there is competitors there as well and -- but we are fabless, and we are mostly using the same fabs as our competitors. So I don't think there is a competitive advantage for any of those others there as well. How much will the hybrid fab model affect margins compared to the other 2 alternatives? I mean it's a bit too early to answer. We are out asking for feedback and the cost model there, but what we are actually assuming with the economy of scale, it might actually be that it won't affect the margins at all, but that we have to come back on that. Tell us more about the Fortune 100, the other ones? I already answered that. Thank you, someone says. Thank you, yourself for listening in. With outsourcing of the Fortune 100, will there be a partner like GF or an external partner? Yes. So GF is not a sort of a company who does indium phosphide stuff. So there will be other partners in that arena. So I will -- I don't think we'll say any names soon, but there is companies we talk to about this. GF partner a hybrid fab? No, they are not a partner in hybrid fab. How do you see for the growth '24? I already answer that. What has Bami Bastani done so far? Yes, I mean, he's been very instrumental in many pieces for us so far. For example, finding partners within the fab parts, talking to many different companies and being supportive to the Board and myself. So I think it's a very important piece of the puzzle to have him who is sort of deeply entrenched into the U.S. ecosystem. So it's been very valuable. Thank you for the presentation. It might be difficult to answer at this point, but what are the margin implication of the hybrid? Yes, I think I really answered it. Compared it to having Step 1, 2 and 3 in-house. So I think I already answered that. Hopefully, very low or none. When do you calculate that the Tier 1 millimeter wave will get into production? I don't dare to guess that right now because they've done a lot of changes back and forth. But we see it, of course, as quite positive that they put the prototype order in and they are building prototypes to verify our solution as well. How much of the SATCOM order of $5 million will be within 2023? I can't share that, but a substantial part will be sort of in that, of course. Do we get an information about the Fortune 100 '23, '24? What do you think? I don't dare to sort of guess this right now. But I mean for every day that goes, we're getting closer and closer to their testing being verified and then we'll get more and more information. Outsourcing GF question again. Has the delayed SEK 50 million order in Q2 being executed delivered during Q3, what we can see in the figures in case of the report? There is—most part of it has been delivered, but there is still parts that could be delivered in Q4 as well. How is it going with KREEMO. KREEMO is still working on their solution. They are out selling the sort of antenna on display solution, and they've been buying some prototype ships but not in any major volume. Will you and Lottie buy more shares of the report? Yes, that you will find out if we do or not in an official note. How does the competition look for your products? And that's a very big question, and I have only sort of 4 minutes left, and I will recommend that you go in and watch some of the presentations we've done. And it's very complex because there's so many different verticals and different ones. But on the top level, I would say what we talked about today, the competition MACOM and Lumentum is important competitors in the optical I/O piece. If we look at the 5G stuff for the Tier 1, for example, you have ADI and you have [indiscernible] even others. So there is many different ones in different areas. And specifically, when you're also doing sort of specific chipsets, it might not be even competition because they can't really change. So like many of the SATCOM projects, of course, there are competition. But since they are sort of deciding very hard with us and we're doing specific things for them, it's not really a competition in somewhat sense. Any updates regarding NXP projects, products? We are working on that sort of 7-1 split that we showed in Barcelona. No update specifically. And as I'm mentioning, it is a bit slow in the 5G area compared to the other areas where we're growing very heavily right now. F100 customer question again. Are you looking for any acquisitions that will -- you will find out a later stage if we do that. How big opportunity is it to deliver both send and receiver for the Fortune 100? I can't guess anything, but I think the same thing there. We worked really hard on both of them and over a very long period. So I'm hopeful that we have a good chance to be part of both, but it's hard to promise anything. KREEMO question. News about Fujikura. Yes, you've seen they are out selling the case. They've shown everything from ITS system for transportation, shown buses, they've shown connectivity for different pieces. So yes, they are actually doing quite well. Track-to-train applications, also doing quite well, as I showed in the last one. I also know that Blue Wireless customers are out chasing a lot of different European companies, for example, here. So I think there will be more about that in the coming 6 months. When do we get more information about the CMD? Possibly 1 to 2 weeks down the line we'll have a press release about it in details. India already answered. How is it going to Cambium? Cambium are using our stuff. They're rolling out things. They have changed the CEO and have been struggling a little bit in overall, but our solution is out there and they're rolling it out, for example, in Australia. Fujikura question again. Do you see a competition in flat pendants for SATCOM? Yes, of course. There is competition. And [indiscernible] is probably one of the biggest competitors in the flat panel arena for us. Okay. I think we've sort of now done. It's actually 11:00, and I would like to thank you all for joining the meeting, and we'll put this up with the right sound and stuff as we go. Thank you so much.