Sivers Semiconductors AB (publ) (SIVE) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good morning, and welcome to this fourth quarter 2023 webcast for Sivers Semiconductors. My name is Anders Storm, I'm the Group CEO, and I'm here also with…

Lottie Saks, CFO.

And we're going to take you through this presentation this morning, and we have about an hour to do so. The agenda is sort of a summary from the beginning, a sales overview, financial overview by Lottie, market and business and the summary and then question and answers as normal in the end. So if we look at the interim report for Q4, there was a growth of 48% and a record Q4 sales in numbers, SEK 74 million. We've never sold so much in one quarter. For the full year, we grew 78%, which is a record year as well, which brings us up over SEK 200 million in sales for the year. During -- since the last quarterly report, we've got some interesting partnerships and customer engagements, about SEK 70 million of those over the last 2.5 months. The most notable is probably the Thorium Space order that we got last week with SEK 30 million. We also got a very interesting follow-on order from our Fortune 100 customer for SEK 10 million and 2 interesting grants from European Space Agency and the EU grant for a 6G project. So -- and also, there has been some questions around sort of contribution and capital contributions in the company. And we are now negotiating a SEK 50 million extension with the existing lenders. The company anticipates this financing will be fully addressed the 2024 needs without any need for capital contribution from our shareholders. If we dive into the Q4, this was a record quarter, as I mentioned, and very much driven by the wireless business unit, who's been growing 110% year-over-year and 48% then for the full company for the quarter. But what is the most remarkable, I would say, is the turnaround from minus SEK 70 million last year to plus SEK 21 million in adjusted EBITDA, and this is the first quarter that we actually have a positive adjusted EBITDA. We actually had a little bit of positive EBITDA in 2020 Q4, but that was not adjusted and that was specifically for stock options that went in the right direction and had nothing to do with the results. So therefore, we're also using the adjusted EBITDA to explain where we are, and that's why adjustments here is so important. We were also positive on the non-adjusted EBITDA and quite strongly so. On the EBIT level, we are still negative, but we improved a lot, and that is still in connection to noncash flow items as the write-off and depreciation of acquisitions and other costs. Also, we had a less R&D capitalization year-over-year. So the improvement in adjusted EBITDA is even better than maybe you can see here. The same here for the full year, passing SEK 200 million with a lot of margin. We come to SEK 236 million for the year, up from SEK 132 million last year and a record 78% year-on-year growth. And the adjusted EBITDA has a huge improvement year-over-year of SEK 55 million, and that is taking into account as well that we are actually SEK 26.5 million less in R&D capitalization. And all of that comes from a very successful NRE project with many of our customers in both our business units, which is now giving the fruit of profitability on the adjusted EBITDA level also for the second half of the full -- of the year. If we look at the quarter-by-quarter growth, it was ups and downs in a way, but mostly ups, of course, because there's been growth for all 4 quarters. So total 78% and ranging from 50% to 113% per quarter. If we take a little bit look back over the years, I mean, we are coming from -- last 7 years from an SEK 18 million turnover in 2016 to sek 236 million, which is a CAGR of 44% over a 7-year period. If we look a little bit on the net sales versus the share price over the last 4 years, so we did SEK 96 million in 2021. And in 2022, we did 90 -- in 2020, we did SEK 96 million; in '21, SEK 90 million; in 2022, SEK 133 million and SEK 236 million. And we think we can see a very positive development here from the 2020 to '24, and we are very optimistic about the growth also for the future. If we look at the sales overview, what's really happened over the last 12-plus months, we actually brought in $36 million or SEK 370 million in new orders that we've sent out via press releases. Then, of course, we have a lot of orders, underlying orders and so forth, that is not press released. Everything below SEK 5 million, for example, we don't press release. We can see here also there is some product sales now coming in, which is very important for us for the future growth that we also can turn our NRE projects into product sales, and we are seeing that happening in the future as well. If we look at the segment reporting, wireless are, in this quarter, quite strong, 77% of the net sales. Photonics was on 23%. That is due to that wireless had a fantastic record quarter, while Photonics had a bit of a slower quarter than anticipated. Even so, we are breaking records in the company. Also, we can see this being affected on the markets with Europe, 77%, highly driven by the satellite communication business in Europe currently. And the North America business is 21% of the sales and Asia is just 1% by definition. Our focus is on -- due to the macroclimate, very much on North America and Europe. NRE sales was 82% and product sales was 18%. We are, of course, working hard to get the product sales up [Technical Difficulty] future leverage to continue growth in the company as well. [Technical Difficulty] Overall, a record Q4 net sales of SEK 74 million, plus 48% growth, also a year growth full year 78%, also record revenue over the year. We have received a lot of different orders over the last 2.5 months about an engagement of SEK 70 million. The company is also negotiating a loan facility for SEK 50 million from existing lenders, and the company anticipates this financing will fully address the '24 without any need for capital contribution from our shareholders. To look at the Q4, it was a record quarter, growing to 73 million -- SEK 74 million almost. That's the best sort of ever quarter we had. Also fantastic growth in the adjusted EBITDA from minus SEK 70 million to plus SEK 21 million. And the focus, of course, has been to get to positive adjusted EBITDA here, and that's been all driven by wireless business unit has grown 110%. And this is the first time we have adjusted EBITDA that is positive. There was a little bit of positive EBITDA in 2020, in Q4, but that was not adjusted and that was due to stock option that went in the right direction and made the cost of salaries and so lower for the quarter. This is down also, with SEK 3.7 million less in R&D capitalization, and EBITDA was actually better. So the record revenue for '23, with a revenue of SEK 236 million, which is first time we passed SEK 200 million, up from SEK 132 million, which is 78% growth, and a huge improvement from -- on EBITDA adjusted plus SEK 55 million from minus SEK 75 million to minus SEK 19 million for the full year, very close for the full year, but second half of the year has been positive, which is very important, of course, and that was the target to reach. Also, growth quarter-by-quarter for '23 has been very, very good, even if it's been up and down a little bit, but all quarters almost over 50%. Also looking at 7-year revenue CAGR is 44%, up from SEK 18 million to SEK 236 million, which is a very good number. Looking at the shares, the share price and the -- in conjunction with sales, here, we can see that we are at about SEK 96 million in 2019-2020, and we've gone to SEK 236 million, and the share price has gone in a different direction, but we are very confident in what we're doing, and we have been delivering 4% to 6% growth last year and 78% growth this year. If we look at the sales overview, we have USD 36 million for the plus 12 months, and the last sort of orders has been strong. We are seeing some product sales increase over the last year. However, in the last quarter, it was a lot more NRE than product sales, and we're coming into that now. Wireless has been growing heavily, 77%, and Photonics, 23%. The net revenue has been divided between their business unit that way. Net sales for Wireless was very strong, while Photonics was a little bit below expectations. And the market, in general, has been mostly strong in Europe for SATCOM, where now 77% of the market share is, and North America at 21%. Asia is by design low because we focus on Europe and North America currently. And as I mentioned, product sales is about 18% and NRE is 82%. The focus has really been on getting new deals and partnerships. And if we go to the first EU grant here for the 6G chip, approximately SEK 14 million, a large consortium with people from Germany, Sweden, Turkey and Switzerland and Greece. It's -- this project is called FirstTo6G. 90% of it is funded over the first 3.5 years and 50% of the funding was received already by the year-end last year. We also have had a very good start of the year with almost a bit over 40 million, 45 million in new engagements since the year started. And the most interesting, of course, is what's happening to the Fortune 100. There is a lot of people who have been interested in that, and we're really happy to see that we are working hard on optimization and design for the next supply of 50,000 more lasers, up from the 30,000 last year. System testing is ongoing, and we're waiting for the next phase, of course. But this has been a project that's been going on for quite a while, and we ask people to be a patient here. This is a very advanced sensor we're working with and the sort of head turning in the end, I would say, when it gets out into the market. USD 18 million has so far gone into this project by this Fortune 100. And looking at this, of course, the RFP has been ranging from something per device from $30 million to up to $100 million per device per year when we get to volume production. Of course, we're all waiting for that next phase, and we hope to see that in the future here. And we're still very optimistic that we are part of these projects. We also got a grant from European Space Agency EUR 0.6 million, and that is the first time we get the direct grant from them, and this is a project that is connected to ESA's Q/V band antenna technology. The satellite communication links today are on lower frequency. Sivers has really great knowledge even in higher frequencies from our 5G business. So going into the high frequencies, you get into the very high throughput satellites, which is for the future for low earth and mid earth orbit satellite constellations. And you can read more about this on the European Space Agency's homepage. Then we are also quite happy to see that our partnership with Thorium Space, plus SEK 30 million recently for the next phase, focusing on advanced development for expansion of this into space and so forth, and we anticipate to recognize $2.1 million in 2024, up to that. Thorium Space is also well funded from ESA. They have a commitment on EUR 8 million in the first phase and 21 -- EUR 25 million in the second phase. So there is no discussion about funding and paying for these projects. So now we are back to the finance details, and Lottie take it away.

Thank you, Anders. Yes, I think we skipped this one in the interest of time. So this is a really important slide, I think, because the images really show the progression over time. So obviously, we are really happy about the record quarter Q4 and the SEK 74 million in revenue. And it's clear that we have a step change in the revenue levels and the business activity from Q4 '22 and onwards. So I also think it's important when we talk about the 48% growth coming from 100% the quarter before, it's now measuring over a really strong quarter in 2022 as well. So we are a growth company, and we are continuing on that path. Looking at the right-hand side, we also track the share of product sales. And in Q3, we had a record level of SEK 18 million in product sales. We also show really strong product sales in Q4, so SEK 13 million in total. But of course, as a percentage of sales, that's coming down now from 31% to 18%. But I think the importance here is that in absolute value, we have increased that and we are on a really good path. So looking at the profitability for Q4 in perspective. And as Anders said, it's really a turnaround coming from historical loss-making quarters to now showing profitability on EBITDA and adjusted EBITDA. And being on the level of SEK 75 million in revenue, we have all the possibilities to show profit, which is a really good milestone to reach. And underlying the profitability, again, is the successful savings programs that were carried out earlier in the year and where we have seen a full effect from Q3 onwards. We have a negative effect of the lower capitalized product development of close to SEK 4 million in the quarter. But to repeat and emphasize, that we are delivering on the financial target to achieve positive adjusted EBITDA during the second half 2023. And also with the measures that we have taken, we are on the right path on profitability levels, although it will vary quarter-over-quarter as a function of sales level. But we have also identified measures that we want to take in terms of improving margin expansion even further. So maybe zooming out and looking at the full year in perspective, again, the graph shows a massive increase in wireless sales. So out of the total revenue growth of SEK 104 million for the year, SEK 93 million is coming from the wireless business unit and is largely, again, driven by the increased demand in SATCOM business. So as a function of the increased wireless sales, we -- now Wireless represent 64% of total sales for the year, and Europe represents 65% of the total revenue. So looking at the 2 business units separately. So Photonics for 2023, 15% growth coming from lower levels historically. So it's really an improvement for the business unit. And for Photonics, it's a lot about leveraging on the operations. We have a factory. We have an operation organization, so of course, increased sales means increased profitability. And we can see, on the right-hand side, the adjusted EBITDA improvement from 2022 to 2023 showing this. And the Photonics sales is largely generated in U.S., in North America, so 73% of the year value is coming here. And again, focus going forward is optical I/O and optical sensing and really scaling on the existing operations. So looking at our second business unit, Wireless, a fantastic 2023 with exceptionally strong growth of SEK 93 million, largely driven by SATCOM. And again, also here, you can see a dramatic improvement in profitability level from minus SEK 51 million in 2022 to minus SEK 5 million or close to breakeven in 2023. And here, the sales is almost 90% generated in Europe. So for Wireless, it's a lot about focus what customers we prioritize and really take measures to improve and expand margin levels even further. And for the company as a whole, of course, cash flow is really important, and that starts with improving profitability level, but it also involves priorities for where we invest. So really leveraging on our R&D investments is one of our focus areas to improve cash flow and -- yes. As you can see, from 2022 to 2023, we have reduced the amount of capitalized R&D, which then have a negative reverse effect in our P&L. And this is not because we're doing less innovation, it's because we have a different approach to R&D. We want customer-funded R&D. So that means that we now have a lot of demand from customers for projects that eventually will lead into product sales that we prioritize in terms of our resources, but also where we take our own products forward. We do that together with our customers in partnership where we can have 1 or 2 customers part funding development with different setups for exclusivity and so on. So it's a slightly new approach to R&D basically. On the right-hand side, we also look at total investment, both CapEx and normal fixed asset investment. So R&D capitalization in percentage of sales is close to 14% and total CapEx close to 23%. And as we have been mentioning before, going forward, we have a focus of asset-light hybrid production for Photonics in our plan. So to avoid investing massive amounts in a new factory, we will do that in partnership. So finally, we're really happy to close the record year 2023 with strong growth and improved operating leverage. And I think all these curves and the year in perspective shows a really, really good performance. So by that, I hand back over to Anders.

Yes. Thank you, Lottie, and we are going into a little bit about the market and what's happening. And Lottie mentioned a couple of areas, which is sort of a very, very high focus. And of course, everybody speaks about generative AI and why is it so interesting for what we are doing at Sivers. And one thing is that you hear about these models or the large language models, they are growing 2x every 4 months. The component capacity, though, is growing 2x for every 24 months. So here is sort of a big issue, and that issue needs to be solved somehow. And Sivers is one of the solutions for this because the fundamental problem is that the energy required to move increasing volumes of data between the GPUs in an AI cluster with electrons in a copper wire will affect the energy available on the computer on the data. So it's really, really difficult sort of to move the data around with more and more energy. Instead using photons or our lasers, it's small and long fibers, reducing the energy by 90% with lower latency and remove all copper interconnect bottlenecks. So if you do that, there's a huge opportunity. And of course, Sivers, with our laser, can offer that. And suddenly, you can build these very large clusters where all of these GPUs together can solve these very, very complex, large language models. So in every rack, you have a lot of GPUs. All of these GPUs are talking in a very, very big cluster between 5,000 to 50,000 GPUs. And you might have seen NVIDIA's supercomputers, and in those supercomputers, you have 8 GPUs on every sort of level on this. And today, these sort of -- they are connected via electricity and not photons. They have something called NVIDIA NVLink, which is the currently high-performance connectivity where you can get up to 900 gigabit per second connectivity. NVLink can, today, only bridge sort of 2 GPUs. There is another one who can bridge, I think, 256. And this is done by 100% energy efficiency, of course, or -- using that. So you can get down to 10% of that with optical connections. And you can do 8 gigabit per second, and that's what we -- that is what we're working on now with Ayar Labs, for example, and others to get to that. And currently, we demoed 4 terabits of data. But this can also bridge hundreds of thousands of GPUs, actually both short and long distances. So this is a much better technology to create and help the generative AI platforms that are developed and built over the time. And of course, this market is sort of crazy big and is growing heavily currently. And this is an example on NVIDIA's growth over the coming years to 2026. 400% it looks like from -- according to S&P Global, the data center revenue will explode and NVIDIA has sort of over 80% of this data center and NVIDIA is an investor in Ayar Labs, for example. And what is it and actually what we connect? You can actually see our laser here, and it's a quite very complex solution and much, much more expensive than any other lasers we built before because they are so complex and they use different wavelengths to create this 4 terabit in this case. And they are sort of using the light, and they send that into the chiplet, Ayar Labs' TeraPHY chiplet. And on that chiplet, it connects directly silicon to silicon with, for example, in this case, an Intel solution and in the future case, NVIDIA. And these are, of course, what we're working on now, and we hope to show even more in the future here on the OFC conference in March, what actually can be done on these kinds of things. To give you some kind of understanding what these clusters, what kind of revenue can they actually create, so if we look at one of those clusters between 10,000 to 50,000, and depending on the pricing, depending on where we are in the volumes with the absolutely lowest pricing, maybe around $30 up to $150 for one of those lasers. They can range from everything from SEK 12 million to SEK 300 million in revenue for Sivers for these lasers per cluster. Is this a viable sort of calculation? Yes, we think so. I mean annual development of sort of 5 of those clusters, that's SEK 150 million annum in sales, and that's about only 250,000 GPUs. If we look at what NVIDIA is selling today, it's 3.5 million GPUs per year. So 250 is only 10% of that. So I would say that this is a very interesting market. And actually, the market estimated by this research company here, Yole, is that the market TAM is SEK 2.3 billion. So I think this is definitely a market that will change the world for companies like Sivers when it comes to fruition sometime end '25, '26 sometime. If you also look at our other markets in the SATCOM business where we are now going from clarity to clarity, I would say, the SATCOM market is quite important for us. And why are we sort of winning there? We are developing chipsets that could sort of have multiple beam formations, which is one of the case. Now they want to connect to multiple satellites in multiple orbits. Also receiving the information from space requires that there is a little noise as possible, and we have developed chipsets that have very, very low, ultra-low noise on the receiver side because that gives you a better throughput and everything. Also the availability to share sort of different connectivities in the antenna in the flat panel and then also steer the beam to meet and follow the low orbit or the mid-earth orbit satellites. So what's happened here over the last year and so forth? I mean we got a Ka-band beamformer order for $5 million and 1 million ICs recently. We got another order for $1.4 million in October 2022. We have -- the ALL.SPACE 2000 series terminal is integrating the Ka-band. We also have a development program on top of that for SEK 16.4 million that started in December 2022. It's gone a year now, and it's part of what's growing. So all of this is, of course, very important, and there's a lot of chipsets in every antenna for ALL.SPACE. Thorium Space, we're now in the second part of the development project. The first part was SEK 1.8 million in March, almost a year ago. The SEK 2.9 million came in now just last week. And it involves sort of development for ground and spaceships and so forth. So all of these things lead into this sort of what is the expectations for the market. And I've got a lot of questions on this one, so I'm going to try to explain it a bit more clearly now. So if we look at the ALL.SPACE here, for example, so we have built the first beamformer generation, which we got these orders for $1.5 million and $5 million during 2023. So total is $6.5 million. We are -- we have a revenue recognized, I think, around SEK 27 million for 2023. What we see here is that this growth, and that's the revenue growth, not the order growth here, it's -- there's been a misunderstanding on that. So the order growth is 2 to 4x next year, depending on their success, of course. And these are their numbers that we've been looking at. And then we've seen sort of the forecast what they're saying. But all of this, of course, comes down to their success in this. We haven't sort of gone out, and the pictures here with the dots and so forth are nonconfirmed things that might happen or might not happen. So you need to understand that. So the only thing we've had is the firm things here and that we are in production. And of course, if we look at the SEK 16 million project, it is sort of developed and working to get there in the end. And the assumption right now, of course, is that it's coming '25, but we don't sort of have any revenue forecast for that and so forth. If we look at Thorium Space now, we have been able to add the second phase here, which would lead into volumes in 2025-ish, depending on how quickly they do their things. We are, again, in the backseat in the sense. And of course, since we don't know the revenue growth in the sense for '24 or any sales there, we expect, of course, this being sort of a heavy growth in '25 when they sort of come to fruition. But this is a way of sort of trying to explain how this customer works. And I've heard sometimes it's much easier to understand the automotive market because they are selling their cars and you can sort of define that. But this gives you possibly an understanding on what we're doing and how this comes to fruition. So in the near term to get to volume and more volumes, we are seeing ALL.SPACE being the most near term, and that, that is sort of going to come to more and more fruition from the SEK 27 million we've been selling in 2023 and into 2024. So to summarize the year and the quarter, record year, record quarter, and we're really happy. Special to see that we had a positive EBITDA and adjusted EBITDA for the quarter. That's very encouraging to see. We have a lot of different grants. We have the follow-up order from the Fortune 100 customer, which is very promising, and we believe that this is sort of still in the bag for us to rather to win. And of course, the expanded partnership with Thorium recently. And there's been a lot of questions around our financing, and we also have solved that problem. And we have seen sort of a strong customer engagement over the last 2.5 months with SEK 70 million of orders. So with that, we're getting into the Q&A. And as usual, I need to go and open up the questions section here. And I've seen there's a lot of questions, and there was also a lot of things about the sound. So I'm going to sort of try to navigate that and try to delete everything that's not sort of possible. And we have about 15 minutes to do this. So let's see.

Please tell us more about all your LiDAR customers. How many? And have you signed any future deals with any of them? When can you name them? If the price range, can you tell the laser, it's -- if you compare F100 optical I/O, and what's the margin? Small volume anytime soon? So if we start about LiDAR, we have 3 to 4 different engagements there with customers that are paying for technology development. The largest one you've seen in the middle of last year was a $1.3 million order, I think. That is sort of a project of a year to get to automotive qualification and all of those things. So we're still quite far away until that happens and then they need to put that into automotive and so forth. So -- and we have very little visibility of the next phase on those though. I would say that the margins are good. I mean we don't go into margins on -- gross margins, in general, per project, but the target is 40% to 60%. And in this case, I would say they are on the upper side of that. And naming the customers, yes, I mean, that has always been a challenge for us because the customers want to stay secret. So I cannot promise anything, but we're constantly working on them and meeting them, and I met CEOs and founders of the companies now in my last trip to the U.S. and trying to get them to participate in Capital Markets Day and other things. So yes, we have to wait on that, but we are working hard on it. The new order of 50,000 lasers, are you going to manufacture all of it in your own fab or some of it is going to be manufactured in the hybrid solution? So our manufacturing is still in-house. We have not sort of decided fully on partner on the hybrid. We are working on sort of which partner we're going to use and so forth. So there is no hybrid solution in near term for these kind of things. But of course, in the future, we'll see. But we still have a lot of capacity in our own fab, and 50,000 lasers is a quite small volume per se. Are you more optimistic about getting both the emitter and the detector for the Fortune 100 customer? More -- I mean I'm still as optimistic as I've been before. We feel that we should be able to get at least one of them, but it's sort of possible to get both projects. But that's too early to say. And of course, the customer decides. A follow-up question maybe by [ Jesper from Redeye ] in the Capital Markets Day. Anything new you can share about being pre-funded/paid by the Fortune 100 customer? I'm not sure what that actually means. But -- I mean we are pre-funded and paid, and they are paying for the full development and have paid $18 million so far, which is a very positive thing, of course. Can we expect a PM what goes on about the hybrid solution for manufacturing? As soon as we have decided on anything, we are evaluating that solution. We will, of course, share more on that. Status around Fortune 102 and 103? Yes, I mean we were on Photonics West last week and had some meetings with one of those. We are sort of reengaging after changes within that company. And also, this has been, as I told you before, research. And to get this into next phase, we need to see things. One of the projects there, I think, is still not sort of done anything, more on hold. So nothing new on those currently, but we are working on many other customers, Fortune 100 customers. So any update about the progress in India with WiSig and Intel? I think we'll share more on what's happening. WiSig will join us at the Mobile World Congress this year again. So I think it will come more information on that. How is work progressing with the Tier 1 in the wireless? And do you -- and the market see this is moving in top -- on top higher frequencies, it's moving in -- on top? Yes, we are progressing, and they are working, but they're still very, very slow on the movement. And that is, in general, I would say the 5G millimeter-wave market, as we mentioned, has been much slower. But I think there is sort of a little progress in the market per se, and we see new RFQs coming out and new options in both Japan and Europe and India. So we foresee that something is going to happen here in the future, but nothing we can say more about right now. WiSig again. Thorium Space and the new SATCOM customer, what is the outlook for '24? More orders, NRE from any of them, if you guess? I would say the -- what you've seen from Thorium now in the sense is the project, but we are discussing other type of projects as well for the future. So for Thorium, we are definitely mostly NRE still. Ayar Lab' order of 1 million was for development, next-generation arrays. This is for 16 arrays. Yes, it's part of 8 and 16 arrays and qualification for that. If yes, what do you think this is ready and qualified for production? And when will the customers start shipping? So the plan is to -- it's about a year from the order. So end of summer, we hope to see that this qualifies. And of course, it's always work on these kind of things. And then they need to do work. So I would say, as I said before, when it comes to Ayar Labs, possibly late '25-ish is where we start seeing volumes. And before that, it's more prototypes, volumes and then, in the end, bigger volumes in 2026. Can you tell us something new about your other optical I/O customers, customer BCD presentation, still years from small volumes? Yes, we are working with them all, of course. We're deep into the ecosystem, and we'll come back when we can share more. And that's same again. We want to share names. We want to share information, but we don't have so much new information. They are, I would say, in the same time frame as Ayar Labs when it comes to volumes. Now KREEMO. Still silence from KREEMO? Yes, KREEMO seems to be affected by the 5G millimeter wave. So I think that they are in the same situation there. Sivers has a goal of 80% hardware sales in '26 instead of opposite now with 70%. You also said that this is forecasted with a flat NRE compared to -- with 2023. Do you have future volumes from F100 in this forecast? When do you give this forecast? In Capital Markets Day, your goal for '23 was still 100%. Can we use this number when forecasting goal for '26? To break it down a little bit. I mean the target and Sivers is sort of a product company. And we are sort of dependent on head count to deliver NRE. And depending on the NRE projects, of course, this is sort of based on recognized revenue over time with the head count we have and the deliveries we can have. So that could, of course, increase if we hire more people and so forth. But currently, we are restrictive to that, and we don't want to increase our cost. Then at the same time, we need to grow revenue here. And of course, a lot of the revenue will come from, for example, SATCOM, where we see an explosive growth for the year from our customers' forecast. And of course, the Fortune 100, if that comes in, that's part of that, of course, as well. But I would say in the -- in this time frame to 2026, we, of course, expect to see volumes from them if we are successful. However, I mean, knock on wood, it's taken longer time than before. So we don't dare to sort of promise anything in that respect. But I would say that we see high numbers also for including them when it comes to product sales. Why do you need to elect Mr. Bami Bastani as the Chairman of the Board before the regular general meeting? I think that's a question for the Board and the nomination committee to answer. I don't have a specific answer for that. Why is ALL.SPACE ordered and delivered under Q4? Can you explain that? So we are working on delivering things. And of course, we are in an early phase of getting things out the door and so forth. And of course, it's -- we are affected by deliveries and all of these different things. So it's more of a challenge to deliver things than anything else in that sense. What's the best guess production for Fortune 100? I don't want to go into guessing about that because we have been sort of waiting and waiting. And until we have a number, we don't want to guess when that actually happens. But I would say for every day that goes, we're getting closer, of course. Another question about hybrid factory. How does the prognosis look for '24? We don't give -- we haven't given any sort of outlook, and we don't intend to do an outlook currently. However, the Board is looking at midterm financial targets, and they are not ready yet to give that. But as soon as they have sort of seen what they want to do, that's going to be shared with the market, of course. Are you forced to say no thank you to customers today? Yes, in some sense, we are doing that. Depending on what kind of projects there are, and sometimes, it's not a fit. Outlook question again. Yes, same Fortune 100 question. Is Fujikura still alive? Yes. Very much so. They are working. I actually had a meeting with them just this week, and they are working on sort of fewer than 10 different customers, but -- and to get this out to market. They are Japanese and are often very, very careful about everything they do, and it takes time, obviously. And of course, they also been hit by the 5G market and that not coming to fruition. So they are working. They will be on the Mobile World Congress this year again and so forth. How is the delivery of the chips to ALL.SPACE progressing? Have you run into manufacturing issues or other issues? Not manufacturing issues in that sense, it's more of a sense that we are sort of able to get everything out the door and trim the processes and so forth. So it's not a manufacturing issue. If I remember correctly, you have said that you will qualify products with potential outsourced partner during first half. Will it work? I don't think we've said that we will qualify that. We haven't sort of mentioned when the qualification will happen. We mentioned that the qualification can take everything from 6 to 9 to 12 months, but it all depends on when that's going to happen. And we still have capacity in our own fab as well to do a lot of chipsets. Can you tell us about the IT bridge during the quarter? Did it impact any specific business segment? I mean we have chosen to not speak about that. I mean many companies are exposed to IT fraud and IT bridges. And for example, [ T2 Avery ] had a big thing happening now with a lot of companies. So we don't really want to go into details to draw more attention to the company in that sense, but that is, of course, a negative aspect of things. Can you say anything about the write-down regarding the custom project is a customer that previously had been mentioned by name or highlighted in the case, which one? We haven't gone into details on what it is, but it's connected to development of IP that we have been developing. 8devices were expected to generate SEK 70 million to SEK 100 million. Are they done ordering? So 8devices are -- and their customers behind them are not being successful as expected, and that's connected to the 5G era and the investments in the U.S. and so forth. And of course, if our customers are not successful, we are not successful in that sense. We have got some orders and we delivered some orders, but they have, since then, sort of failed in that delivery, I would say. What do you think of the new CEO of Ayar Labs' impact on Sivers? No impact. That's a guy and person we have been knowing for quite some time, and I see a positive on that. We now have Charlie instead inside of NVIDIA. That's helpful, I think. Will you make sales forecast for '24? No sales forecast for that, midterm targets possibly. When we -- the order for ALL.SPACE coming? We are currently working on delivering orders to ALL.SPACE based on the $5 million. So it is rolling out the doors as we speak in many shapes and forms. Is the loan finalized? Your slide says being negotiated. No, it's just exactly that. It's being negotiated, but we've come very far in the negotiation. So we expect to come back on that during Q1. The result after tax was SEK 46 million. Can you explain why the loss is so big? And how do you turn that to positive? So I would say that the loss and looking at EBITDA for Sivers right now is not very fruitful. I think the EBIT is not very fruitful, but EBITDA is more telling the story about how the company goes because the EBIT has a lot of connection to depreciation and write-downs of things that has noncash flow effects. And we are more looking also for the future on how to get to operational cash flow and positive cash flow and so forth. So I think looking at EBIT currently is not fruitful in that sense. Rather look at the notes in the report on what is it that we have been writing down. What reflection did you make after missing the target of 100% growth year-on-year? Have you thought -- rethought the company's communication strategies because it's not helping the stock price? First of all, the stock price is not our sort of first target. But of course, we are very disappointed that we didn't meet it, but we were -- more important for us was to get to a profitable EBITDA quarter and second half, and we've done that. So that was extremely important. And then, of course, there are orders that can fall in and fall out. And I think we're delivering a record quarter and a record year. So from that perspective, we've done fantastically, but it was unfortunate. And I would say one of those reasons that we don't give a forecast now is due to this, that we don't want to miss forecast, so that is the effect of it. What are the news about the 5G design wins? There is no news on that currently. As we have had -- we are working on more design wins on that end. But as we said before, the 5G is much slower, but we're seeing an uptake, and there will be more information about that. Any news, big customer this year? I can't go into that. I think we are also running over here by 5 minutes, and I have to run to the next things. So thank you, everybody, for the information, and we will come back and make sure that the sound is correct in the thing we put up on the Internet and put that together in a correct way. Thank you so much, and have a great day.