Talenom Oyj (TNOM) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Hello, everyone, and you are welcome to Talenom event. Today, I have my friend, my colleague, Matti, here with me. And we are presenting our business review and strategic review today. And here is our agenda for Tuesday. Matti will start with our latest period, Q3 report. And I will focus after that for our -- this morning released midterm financial targets. So after that, you will have time for questions also for Finnish. But now stage is yours, Matti. Go ahead, please.

Thank you, Otto. Hello, everybody, and welcome to follow this quarter 3 review. First, I would like to share you some highlights of the review period. First of all, we had strong growth. We grew from EUR 61 million to EUR 76 million, bringing us 24% of growth. At the same time, when we were growing fast, we were able to keep our high EBIT level. The EBIT grew a little bit more than EUR 1 million, and it was 17%. We are also keeping our guidance unchanged. It will be -- it is expected to be between EUR 100 million and EUR 110 million. Operating profit is expected to be between EUR 15 million and EUR 18 million. Then a little bit about our strategy progress. As I mentioned, our growth was fast and strong. We were growing through organic, 1/3 came from the organic growth and 2/3 came from the acquisitions. The organic growth was supported by getting new customers and also good development in value-added services in Finland especially. We also made acquisitions. We made 4 acquisitions in quarter 3 and 13 altogether this year. We were also developing our businesses in Spain. We just recently acquired Nomo platform company, which has an excellent customer interface. We are expecting that Nomo has good capabilities to create growth in Spain. On top of that, we made 2 acquisitions also in Spain, more like traditional accounting business. So quite a lot of going on in Spain, good atmosphere and a really good foundation for future growth in Spain. We were also exploring new market areas. The digitalization within SMEs and the accounting process is happening right now. And that's why we are actively seeking for possibilities in Europe. We strongly believe that with our knowledge of digitalization and the experience of automatization will bring certainly benefit to that market areas. We were also making some progress in small customer concept. We were -- we had partnership contract with Fellow Bank, and through that contract, we can distribute our bank accounts and cards through our website or customer interfaces. We also got the Finnish IBAN, which is also a good step ahead. And last but not least, the software implementation in Sweden. Earlier, we have stated that we are preparing for that, and we are starting to do that and now it's come true. We are actually implementing our own software at this point in Sweden. And it's going according to the plan. So far, we haven't seen anything that can prevent us from doing that. Yes. Net sales growth continued. It was 24%. So it was a pretty good growth, a little bit more than last year. It was EUR 12 million last year growth, and this year, it was 16 -- EUR 15 million, so a little bit accelerated growth in absolute euros. Little bit seasonable variation on the last quarter. And about the profitability, our EBITDA grew a little bit more than EUR 4 million and the relative profitability measured by EBITDA was pretty much the same, and it was on a really high level. Our EBIT also went up a little bit more than EUR 1 million, ending up to 17% of relative operating profit. The relative profitability was depressed by a lower profitability of the acquired businesses if we compare them to the existing units, which we have. Also, the integration and other costs of the acquisitions were higher. And you can see that, especially on the last quarter that this has an impact on our relative profitability there. But what is the main reason for a little bit lower relative profitability is our higher depreciation. In year 2019 and '20, we basically doubled our investments to softwares, which has a significant impact on our depreciation. And this year, our depreciation has gone up to 36%. So that's why it's bringing our relative profitability down. But if we didn't do those software investments, we wouldn't probably be in the situation that we are actually implementing our own software in Sweden right now. And I would like to remind that in Finland, we have experienced that it takes about 3 years to increase the profitability to the same level that the existing units after we have implemented our own software. And the country-specific business development. Business development in Finland was strong and steady. We grew 15%. And last quarter, it was 12%, a little bit seasonable variation there. And the growth came 2/3 from the organic growth and 1/3 came from the acquisitions. And like I mentioned in the beginning, that it was because of increased customer numbers and good sales in value-added services. EBITDA in Finland, it remained on a high level. It grew a lot, and it was almost 40%. And this relative profitability remained excellent and it's because of high automatization level, and this has a really positive impact on profitability. This also gives you an idea and an image that what can be done in the profitability when you have high digitalization and high automated processes in the accounting business. And the business development in Sweden. In Sweden, we had really strong growth, it was 75% and it mainly came from the acquisitions. EBITDA is significantly lower level than in Finland, but it is still more or less the average of the accounting field in Sweden. In Sweden, we have invested a lot in sales, building support functions, IT and et cetera. And we are developing management structures there also. But most importantly, we are implementing our own software implementation, which has also impact on our profitability in Sweden, which can be seen on the last quarter, especially. And finally, the outlook and guidance, which we have published in December 2021. We are keeping it the same and we are expecting to have revenue between EUR 100 million and EUR 110 million, and EBIT level is expected to be between EUR 15 million and EUR 18 million. Thank you very much, and it's Otto's turn now.

Thank you, Matti. I will focus on for our new financial targets for medium term. And we are stronger focused on accelerating growth, and why, I have 3 messages, what I try to tell for a few next 15 minutes. It's that digitalization is just happening in Europe. We have the success story in Finland, and now we are going to duplicate this in new areas in Europe. And let's start from our solid foundation to build on. The left side, you can see the accounting industry, how big it is in Finland and how is it growing, about 5% in a year. And the mid figure you see Talenom revenue, and we are growing about 3x faster. And the right side, you can see the development of Talenom's operating profit. As you heard at Matti's presentation that it's on very high level. And so we -- the company is in good shape, and we have the good foundation to build on. We have a proven strategy and strong track record. And during this first period 2000, 2015, we created our own digital platform. We made digital transformation from the traditional business model to digital business model. And this will include all the process development, internal process development, it also includes the platform, which includes the customer interfaces Talenom Online, Talenom app and also Talenom own bookkeeping software. And we adapted the first full version of Talenom bookkeeping products online at 2015. And after that, you can see that we have the success story in Finland, that we can see the impact of the digitalization breakthrough on performance in Finland. And you can see that our EBIT margin has like tripled. And also, what you don't see here is that at the same time, our employee and customer satisfaction has improved very well also, and like customer turnover has increased and so on. So this is the success story from Finland. And now we see that the same kind of situation is in whole Europe, that the digitalization will really happen. And we are going to duplicate this success story, what we have in Finland also in new countries. And our medium-term financial targets are, the first one, annual net sales growth, over 30%; the second, annual EBITDA growth, over 15%; and also increasing EBIT in euros and increase in dividend per share. And just now, we are well equipped for future growth. We have very strong position in Finland, and we have strong profitability of our core business, as Matti just told, and we have the best-in-class digital capabilities and platform in place. And we have to experience that -- and we have got some of the first signs of internationalization journey, and now we really believe that it's time to accelerate our growth. And we have enough experiences that what this will really mean, we don't have seen any barrier that why this would not be possible. I'm telling later on more about the digital transform, what this really means. But some idea from this slide is that our growth will based for acquisition, our active sales and digital sales. In short term, this means that we are really boosting our acquisitions. And the longer we go, we hope that we can change our business model more and more organic growth. But now just we are growing with acquisition and active sales and digital sales. The last one, digital sales, is what we have developed some years, and we see huge potential there because it's the most scalable way to growth later on. Nothing big change. We'll continue to execute our current strategy with increased focus on growth. And our vision is that we want to offer unbeatable accounting and banking services for small and medium enterprises. And here's the one-pager and you can see that there is 3 countries, Finland, Sweden and Spain, where we have business just now. And we are exploring new markets. And our competitive advantage based for these 3 wings: easy routines for our clients, internal effective automation, and after that, it means that we have more time with our clients and it offer -- it supports our upsell and add-value service possibilities. And here's some steps, how do we see that this digitalization will really happen. This is like more law of nature. The digitalization will start from the customer perspective. When the customer will start using some platform, it will make the customer life easier. It also standardize the workflow from clients to accounting office, and it's also -- it's another for like e-invoice and some structured information, and after that, it's easier to make automatization and it becomes possible. It is because the clients are using the same platform than the accounting office are. And the third step is the care and upselling. When we have automated enough our processes, so it means that we save time, and we can share the saved time with the clients and it will support our upselling possibilities. And here is some indicative picture of the situation where we are just now in 3 different countries. There's the -- in first categories, there's Finland, everything is [ released ]. And in Sweden, we are just now adapting our customer interfaces and bookkeeping software. And we have also -- we have been there also add-value functions like Spain, we have also. And in Spain, we have a very good position there. And as Matti mentioned, we have own platform there from the customer perspective. And -- but we are using their commercial bookkeeping software. So we see that we have the huge potential for automation also in Spain later on when we adapt our own bookkeeping software also there. This is like the indicative picture, and maybe it will often like the situation where we really are just now. Okay. Why to accelerate faster later on? The first step is that there is so many legislation and market trends which are boosting digitalization. And here's the link also on the presentation that you can go through to our investor website, and there is -- you can read more about the legislation there. And there's many like e-invoice standard that how the different European countries are adopting e-invoicing. And the many countries has made the decision that, okay, like in Spain, 2024, big companies -- in '26, all companies have to deliver invoices via e-invoice. And this will be the mandatory, and this is the big, big driver and it will mean that you can make the invoices via paper and pen or Word or Excel, you have to be some software that you can really send the e-invoices. And these will -- this will increase demand of the software. There's many other trends also. Okay. The second one is, customer behavior is changing towards digital platform. As we have seen in private sector, we want to use applications anywhere, and this means we are going -- we are Teams and Zoom and so on. And the third one is that digitalization is really happening just now. Choices between platforms are being made, and the barrier to switch is proven to be high. And that's why we believe that just now is the time to accelerate our growth and go forward. Here is the picture. And it's like just a number of the companies divided with number of the employees in those companies. So we can see that there is like over [50 million ] enterprises in 2 such countries. And this is our estimation, that maybe 90% of those enterprises, they have not chosen platform to use. And I mean, that they have not chosen the platform with their -- shared with their own accounting offices. And the shared platform will offer these benefits and for automation and for improved efficiency. This based our own research and experiences that there is a very traditional way to do the bookkeeping in Europe, But everybody is saying -- of our colleagues in the other countries, that this will change. Everybody is like speaking about that, that this will change. And we also know that -- and also some research support this idea that the big companies, corporates, the digitalization level is very high, but the smallest ones it's very low, but the smallest one is the biggest group and it is unchanged. And these customers' behavior will be changed in near future. And our success story based for that, that is we have made this digitalization, and this will happen also in Europe. And around -- and during this period, we have saved over 80% of used time for accounting process in Finland, and we believe that this will really happen also in the other countries. And we want to be the part of that, and we want to make it happen also. Okay. Some phases of our internationalization, here, 4 phases. The first one is exploring. It will take about 12 months, market analysis, networking and so on. The second phase is like to bridgehead position. It means that we have made some first acquisition. And after that, it means that we can really deeply understand that how this market will really work. And the phase 3 is growth and development mode. And we are like that mode just now in Spain. We have been there [1 and 3] months. And as Matti mentioned, we have very good position now there, we have the digital change -- digital sales channel there and own platform for our clients. And we are growing our sales organization there, and we will continue the acquisition very heavily also in Spain. And phase 4 is the time when we are adopting our own software and our service. As we have mentioned, we have Service as a Service, which will include also platform and services. And this means that our technology is in vital processes, and we will continue the strong growth and profitability. Sweden is in the latest phase, and now we are adapting our own software for the -- first, offices, and later on, new offices will come also for these projects. And -- but at the same time, we will continue the acquisition also in Sweden, so we -- this like integration process will continue many, many years for future. Shortly, my recap. The first point is that we have succeeded in the Finnish digitalization journey. Second, digitalization is happening right now in Europe, and that's why we are accelerating our growth. And third one, we want to duplicate the Finnish success story in European countries. I have one more slide before questions. I want to release our latest version of the Talenom app. And why? Okay. So many investors has asked it for me that what this digitalization really mean. So here is the picture. What the digitalization will mean in the real life, it means that you have accounting office in your pocket. You can make all main daily routines in -- on a mobile phone. You can read more about that from our website. Thank you. And now it's time for questions, also in Finnish. Thank you.

All right. So I guess I will begin. This is Juha from Inderes. Of course, my questions are regarding your growth strategy or the new financial targets. So first of all, growth of over 30% in this period. Could you tell us a little bit how much is going to be organic, how much is going to come from acquisitions and how much have been allocated to new business areas like, well, micro small business segment?

I can start from the first one. So maybe our organic growth will continue as it has gone and the boost will come from the acquisitions. And in the short term, the acquisition is the main driver and a little bit longer, mid and longer term, it is organic growth. We believe that this will take a bigger part. And the long, long-term, this scalable -- the small business one will be the big part of the growth. This is the way how we think about just now.

All right. The critical thing is that when you are now sacrificing profitability in the short term, in addition to get the growth in the long term, how comfortable -- and what is your confidence level that you can do what you have done in Finland? And in 3 years' time, these acquisitions that you are doing in Sweden are actually as profitable as Talenom Group?

Yes. We have only experiences from Finland, and this is the best experience what we have. And the time will be -- start calculating from the -- from that start point when we really adapt our software. And now we are adapting our software in some offices in Sweden, and those offices will achieve the same level of profitability as we have in Finland core business during 3 years. This is the best experience what we have. Of course, we know that this -- the part of the acquired business will be the bigger all the time. So that's why we also will focus more about this integration processes, and we try to be more effective also there.

But you don't want to say how confident are -- how -- what is the level of your confidence in this?

It's high. We believe that this is -- this is more in like our internal process in our own hand.

All right. One more from me, and then I will share the microphone with someone else. I'm just wondering about the growth angle because earlier, I think that Spain was more focused on SMEs and they had their own platform. And now I watch the phases of internalization slide and it's kind of in the same path as Sweden. So is it going to be in the same path that eventually, you will get your own software there and do what you have done in Sweden go to scale? Or is it a different angle in Spain? And how about new countries also? Is it going to be like Sweden or is it going to be in Spain or are they actually the same?

Yes. Maybe some difference is, of course, we have learned something from Sweden, and we try to do things faster in Spain. Of course, we are lucky that we have the own platform -- owned place just now in Spain. And it means that we can really -- and we have also digital sales channels there because of the Nomo acquisition. So we have many, many things on place just now. But we want to achieve bigger position in Spain. And it's also -- the Spain is just changing just now from the duration of the digital way. So that's why we are also continuing the acquisition there. And we are focusing the small ones also in the near future. But also, we are going to acquire some offices, which are delivering services for mid-segments because we know that so many clients will start from the small companies, and later on, they will need more services. So that's why we think about that we have to be the both of service level also in Spain. But it's like we are making the acquisition, but also we have the very good team to grow organically there. Yes. Thank you. And next one.

So I'm [ Limone ] from Carnegie. I'd like to continue a little bit on this growth and turning companies profitable. So you have acquired quite a lot of companies, and you're going to increase that going forward. So what's your capacity on turning around this? So how many offices can you do simultaneously?

Yes. Good questions. And we are -- we have hired some people for supporting this acquisition and we have a good team now in Sweden. As you have seen, we have made so many acquisitions there, and we will continue this level or we would accelerate that. And also in Spain, we have the -- we have very heavy acquisition team there, and we have very much skills to do that. And of course, when we are now boosting, so it means that we will hire people that we can really handle these acquisitions. Yes.

Okay. And then a little bit regarding that as well. You had -- you said in your targets that you want to increase the dividends per share. Now that you're going after growth, why are you simultaneously want to increase the dividends? Couldn't that be put into growth as well?

This is what we have done previous years, and we believe that this will continue. In our estimations, we have seen that this is possible. And -- maybe Matti, you can open more about funding reserve what we have and how we are going to do the acquisition and funding this growth.

Well, first of all, about the dividend that why we want to increase the dividend is that we want to serve as many investors as possible that some think that the growth is really important and some think that they also want the dividend, especially the small investors, they like the dividend. So that's why we are also having that. And also that we are using our own share in the -- when we are acquiring the new offices or acquisitions. So we are going to use our own share also there that we don't have to use cash that much. And of course, in this situation, when the interests are going up and down, mostly up, but anyway, it's worthwhile of using our own share there as well.

And then one more question regarding the small customer concept. Do you have any numbers on your conversion rates? So of new users or people who register for the service, how many become paying customers?

We have not released that. We have said that it's between 15%, 20% of all customers what we have got, they are [on paying] customers. And now we are seeing that most of them are like on the service customers also. And yes, this is what we have said. Yes.

[ Indiscernible ]. Let me ask about banking which features quite prominently in your vision. And banking and payments and cards and all that, at least in theory, is a fairly scalable European business and platform unlike accounting. And at least before, I got an impression that you are looking for a scalable banking and payment solution together with a European neobank, which could be scaled to all your target countries. But now you have announced a local cooperation with a smallish Finnish player. Does this mean that payment and banking services become a more local service to you as well and you have sort of identified that it cannot be scaled to the extent that you may have believed before?

Yes. Good questions. And yes, we tried to do this with other current provider. And the main reason why we are changing this partner is that we need the local [EPAM], and the current provider doesn't have capabilities to do that. And also reference number was the other reason. And maybe we need the local partners, maybe this is the right assume. And now we really want to do this first in Finland. And in Spain, we have the partner -- the Nomo has a partner with the one other providers. So we have on place this banking services also there. But yes, from the bank card and credit card point of view, we are delivering the -- it's authorized from Visa or Mastercard. And the European -- single European payment area is the same. And from the technology point of view, if we can make the payments in Finland, so it means that we can make the payments also in Spain and other euro areas. And -- but yes, we need partners around these banking services. Yes, that's true.

Well, perhaps a short comment on acquisitions since there's a fairly heavy emphasis on acquisitions and growing through acquisitions. I mean, what is the market like for acquisitions and the price levels you need to pay in, let's say, in Finland, Sweden and Spain? And how you see the situation developing when we seem to be heading to the worst times in terms of the macroeconomic situation?

Yes. As you can probably notice that we are not doing acquisitions in Finland that heavily anymore. And we think that the market is a little bit overheated at the moment in Finland. We can do in fair price a little bit smaller offices, but it's a slow development, and also the integration work is a lot heavier compared to the size of the acquisition. But when we move on to a little bit bigger offices in Finland, they tend to be a lot expensive, and there is a lot of competition also. So that's why we are a little bit reducing the acquisitions in Finland. And in Sweden, apparently, at the moment, it seems to be that it's a quite good market for acquisitions. We can do there in fair prices. Let's say, the multiplier of EBITDA will be something around 4% to 6%, and the revenue multiplier is 100% and a little bit -- overall a little bit under but quite fair price. And we also think that -- even that it is on that kind of profitability, it's still a good deal. And then we think that after we have adapted our own software, we can increase the profitability there also. So the multiplier sort of comes down after that. Of course, it will go -- in the implementation phase, it goes a little bit down, but then it will come up and will be certainly higher than when we have bought it. And also, there is quite a good basement -- or quite a good foundation that there's a lot of offices for sale at the moment in Sweden. So that's why it looks a really good market. And that's why we have made so many acquisitions in Sweden. Spain, we don't have that good experience, of course, because we have been in Sweden for a longer time. But it seems to be that there's -- it's a little bit same kind of situation than in Sweden,also in Spain.

Yes, Daniel?

It's Daniel Lepistö from Danske Bank. So I have a couple of questions. First of all, about the Q3 Finnish EBITDA margin, which contracted some 1 percentage point from the year-on-year. Despite to my knowledge that not that much of acquisition in Finland were met during the last 12 months, and if there was done some acquisitions, those were quite small. In my opinion, that wouldn't have affected the margin negatively that much. So was there anything else in the kind of soft margin in the EBITDA level in Finland? Or was this -- in Finland only.

In Finland, yes, there was a little bit extra income on the previous period or the period in last year. And there was also those acquisition extra costs, what we have and was pointing to Finland, not to the countries that where we are making the acquisitions. So those were quite heavy. Also that we are kind of supporting the other countries as well, and we need the recruitments in Finland. So all the recruitments in Finland doesn't necessarily mean that they are for Finland. They are also for future growth in Spain and Sweden and so on. So that's also the reason. But if we just keep it like that, it is certainly in very good shape, this Finland profitability.

Yes. That was helpful. My second question is about this sort of first feedback from this end customers. In Sweden and Spain, you discussed that you have some customer interfaces already in place in these countries. So have you received any first feedback from these actual end customers? Any constructive criticism or positive notes?

You mean that they are testing our...

Yes, in terms of accounting software.

Yes, of course, of course. Everybody who are working around the software project know that we are getting feedback all the time. And the first version, what we have adopted now is -- from the customer perspective, it will include Talenom Online, and there is the on place Talenom sales invoice. And now we are adapting payment services. And it's based -- the sales invoicing based for the Finnish software, and it's the most of -- maybe 95% of it is the same. And that's why the majority of the software is very high. But of course, there is some details where we get the feedback, but now not any more.

So the initial customer experience has been good, I mean, in terms of these other software competitors that you might have in -- especially in Sweden?

Yes, I think so. And maybe it's so early to say that we don't have so much statistic that how we compare Talenom interfaces and [form of]interfaces and so on, but not any big challenges there.

And also, we have started from the customers that are not using that much any software. So that's also the reason, that's why we are not getting that much feedback from there at this point because we have started, of course, from the customers that are, let's say, easier to change into the system.

And that's why it's also a positive message for them because they can have the software, yes.

All right. Then about this depreciation from acquisitions and the software investments that will increase the depreciation levels. How do you see the software CapEx growth in this new strategy period? Will it accelerate from these current levels? Will it grow steadily? Will it be -- when it is or...

Yes. The big change was in 2019 and '20 when we doubled this investments on our software. And it will be more moderate, but I cannot say sure that we are not increasing our investment levels. It depends what comes ahead in different countries, but we try to keep it more moderate. So we are not going to do that kind of a thing anymore that we are doubling it. It will have too much depreciation, of course. But it will be moderate, let's say, that 10% to 15% that the CapEx is raising so that it's significantly lower than the revenue growth.

So 10% to 15% CapEx growth in the software.

Pardon?

10% to 15% growth on the software CapEx annual?

Around there, somewhere.

Okay. And my last question, are you planning to sort of give further information related to this PPA depreciation, on the acquisition-related depreciation and/or report EBITDA margin in the future?

Sorry, I didn't get...

So will you -- are you planning to report EBITDA margin without the depreciation?

No, we haven't planned that. I don't know. I don't know. I don't really see the benefit of that much bringing -- we are now bringing EBITDA in our measurement already. So third measurement for the profitability, well, to me, it would be too much. But I don't know if the investors like it, may be then. But we haven't got any feedback from there that we should follow that.

[indiscernible] Ultimately, you have to sell in Sweden to get the profitability. You have to sell the organic growth there because you get -- now you get the software and then you sell it up and fulfill the profitability. So when will we see the evidence?

Yes, that's the good questions. We have to follow up the base cases, first accountant, the first team and how this figure will really develop. And the current experience what we have from the Finland, we see that in the first 6 months, the effective will go down. And after that, it will start. It will achieve the same level after like 6 months. And after that, it will increase. And it means that we can see the effective. So it means that we will have more revenue per accountant. And it will mean that we have succeed also in -- around new customer acquisitions, and we can put these new clients to accounts list. And so that's why it's not -- this is good questions because this is not only like technical issue. Of course, we have to resolve the technical things, but the effectives will come later on when the accountant is comfortable with the new software, and she or he can really adopt new clients. And after that, we can see the results. And that's why it takes 3 years. But of course, we try to shorter this period because everybody knows that on this accelerated growth, this will be the big part of that. So that's why it's so -- we have so high incentive to focus also for that and how we could be the better all the time for there.

We have now already built the sales force there? Or are you doing it the next team?

Yes. We have sales organization in Sweden, in Stockholm. And we are doubling in this year and also next year. That's the plan, that we are all the time growing faster via active sales organizers.

Okay. Then about the digital sales. Every time I open a browser, I get the TiliJaska advertisement. So I hope it's bringing benefits. Do you have evidence on that in Finland? I'm not hoping in Sweden, but maybe in Spain as well. So where -- do you have the evidence now?

Yes. We are getting like the same level of the new clients. And we have learned so much about the digital sales, that how it really works. And we have made some adjustment to our TiliJaska website, and we are getting better now the visitors name, the e-mail addresses. And after that, we can make the after marketing for that and trying to get those visitors to our users and so on. And there is many, many conversions points, what we are following and where we are making changes and trying to get these clients also to paying clients, not only for the users. Yes.

So you have the evidence?

Yes. We have evidence for that, yes. And it's the -- we are now comparing TiliJaska evidence also for Nomo evidence. And now we have 2 teams, which are doing like same things in 2 markets. So we can share the experiences and the best practices for that. And from the tariff point of view, we can see that we have the good results, that how many new clients we are getting from the visitors, what's the dispersion and how many of these marketing qualified lead is really going to sales qualified lead and how many of them will be the subscriber and so on. So yes. But there is many, many small details what we have to develop all the time. But yes, we have -- you have seen TiliJaska anywhere.

All right. Final one. Seems to be that the platform selection, as you said, it's tough to choose and even more difficult to change.

Yes, that's true.

So -- and I have a feeling that Sweden is almost a lost case. There's a dominant player there. Do you have any hopes to get significant share there? And what about Spain, is there a dominant player already? Or are you...

Yes. The Sweden is more competitive market than Spain, but the highest competition level is in Finland. And our experience is that about 80% of current customers, what we have acquired in Sweden, they don't really use so much Fortnox or some other software because -- and there's many reasons. But that's why we think that 80% of acquired companies, we can adapt our software easy. These are the smallest one. And the biggest one, they have used it so long time Fortnox or FISMA or some other. Maybe they will continue to use that, but our growth will based that we are like really selling this service and platform at the same time. And we see that -- as we have seen now in Sweden, so we can close to sales like double volume per sales guide in Sweden compared to Finland. So this is the real situation now in Sweden, how do our active sales is ongoing there. So this is the good feedback for us, and that's why we are doubling our sales force there. And if we compare the Spain market, so there is many small platform but not any more big player there. So the situation is like the same what we had in 2005. In Finland, we have Talenom, Netvisor, Heeros, Maestro, and maybe Procountor [indiscernible] just that time. So it's like this kind of situation from the market point of view. But the development will happen so much faster because of the mandatory of the e-invoice. That's why we want to go with the platform and try to get users. And we know that they don't want to -- when they have choose like new motors, so they don't want to change from Stihl team to Huskvarna team. They will continue to use Stihl. It's like the same thing. Yes. Maybe this was the -- thank you. Any more questions from audience?

Yes. There is on the webcast platform several questions both in English and Finnish. I'll start with the English ones. Matthias asks, the majority of your acquisitions during the last years are financed mainly through directed share issues. As a result, the increase in revenue and EBIT in absolute terms dilutes on an ever-increasing number of shares. Consequently, despite higher revenue and EBITDA, the earnings per share in Q3 2022 is actually lower than Q3 2021. In the short term, this means that the international acquisitions are destroying shareholder value. Questions, should we expect lower year-on-year EPS in the coming quarters? Don't you think you should put more emphasis on EPS in your quarterly reporting as this is the key figure reflecting shareholder value creation?

Yes, that's true. The EPS went down in the third quarter. But if we look at the full period, it was increasing, the EPS. And we have several scenarios and -- that this EPS in the future, that it will grow. But of course, that will be growing moderately. And of course, the interest rates will affect on that. And unfortunately, we don't have any tools to influence on the interest rate, which will have an impact in our net profit. So in that terms, it's a little bit over our hands. But we have calculated that the EPS should raise in future.

Martin [indiscernible]. In Finland, I guess that Talenom's accounting software was the first cloud service many customers used. In Sweden, most will switch from Visma's or Fortnox's platforms. Will Talenom's accounting software be good enough? Will you have to offer a lower total price to make the customers go to Talenom's Swedish software?

Yes. You know that clients are using the software, what accounting offices are recommending. So as I mentioned earlier, we have seen that like 80% of our current clients in Sweden, we can adopt easy our own software there. And some key benefits what we have in Talenom Online is that it's very easy to use. It's so simple. Maybe there is not so much features, but most of clients, it's very easy to use. And this is our like main competitive advantage of the software. And yes, they are getting the software and services from the one place, and we have the whole support also to end user from the customer -- from the software perspective and from the service perspective, We are like delivering the whole package. So our clients doesn't need to ask any more from the software provider. So they will get all answer from us, yes.

Martin continues by asking, how many acquisitions can you make in Sweden in 2023? What can you say about the competition from other big players to buy smaller firms?

Yes. We haven't really announced the number of acquisitions. Of course, it depends on the size of the acquisition. We just recently made a deal with the with Mazars, which was around SEK 50 million. So -- and the smallest one we just had, it was much lower, 5x smaller than the Mazars, even smaller. And so we haven't really announced that how many we are doing there. So yes, that's all about that.

Given continued M&A and investment, what margin level should we expect as the base level, EBITDA or EBIT margin?

EBITDA margin, we are -- in the acquisitions, we are looking mostly on the EBITDA margin.

I'll switch to Finnish. [Foreign Language]

[Foreign Language]

A few questions more in English. Maria asks, in your presentation, you listed 15 European countries that you have explored in the standpoint of size of the enterprises. In how many countries are you planning to operate in 2025? And what are the key elements when you are doing decisions related to new countries?

Yes. We are exploring now 3 countries. And what's the perspective, the market should be big enough, and maybe also that is it possible to be an accountant offices there? And do we need some persons who should have some certificate or not? And is it possible to get like Finnish accounting company who is running in new countries. Is there any legislative barrier around that? Maybe this is the one. But the main is these market sizes and also this the way of working how -- what we can really explore for the new country. So the more traditional the market is, the more we have to explore. Maybe this is shortly.

And also the infrastructure level there, that what kind of digital development we can have in the future, that it's not already too digitalized, so it might be difficult to enter that market. So the digital license has to be quite low, but it also has to have some kind of a plan or infrastructure that the digitalization will rise. And then we can also have the automatization on top of that.

And one more question. For the group, what is the base EBITDA margin we should expect going forward? Or what year will the base margin be achieved in? Any color on that would be helpful.

Yes. That's a difficult question. We will give the guidance for each year. And now we have this guidance. And at this point, I don't want to announce any new guidance before I talk to the Board and Otto. So unfortunately, I cannot give that.

Yes.

No further questions.

Okay. Thank you for everybody. Is there any more new questions from audience. Silent means that there is no more. So we want to thank you for everybody here and there on online. Thank you.

Thank you.