Veeva Systems Inc. (VEEV) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Good afternoon, everyone, and welcome to the JPMorgan Healthcare Conference. My name is Anne Samuel, and I cover health care technology and distribution here at JPMorgan. We're thrilled to have Veeva with us presenting today. With us are CEO, Peter Gassner, and CFO, Brent Bowman. They're going to do a brief presentation, and then my associate, [ Kyle ], is going to help out with the Q&A. So with that, let me turn it over to Peter.

Hello, folks. Can you hear me okay? All right. Third day of JPM, you've got some rain and you got some wind. You've had a lot of meetings. Some of you may be introverts, so your brains might be mush like mine right now. So you never know what you're going to get from me in this situation, but I'll try to explain a little bit about Veeva. And maybe you also might pick up something about the industry as well because our customers are pharma and biotech customers, and I talk to and we talk to a lot of them, so you might be able to pick up some things about the industry from observing through Veeva's lens. So that's what I'm going to plan to do. And let's see if this works, it does. Safe harbor, we're going to do some forward-looking statements here, and you can read about those on our website. This is how we operate the company, through a vision and value. It's a very operative slide for Veeva. I present this thing probably 12 times a quarter, beginning and end of every Board meeting, significant management team meeting, et cetera. It's really what we're doing, very operative. So our vision is building the industry cloud for life sciences, so that means software, data and high-quality, high-value professional services to help the life sciences industry get more efficient and effective. We want to be essential to and appreciated by every company in life sciences. So that's the vision. It's hard to get there, maybe we never will, but that's what we're trying to do. The values are how we make decisions, big and small, along the way. The first -- and they're in stacked-ranked order. First is do the right thing, that's about honesty, integrity, about knowing what the right thing is to do and actively doing it. Customer success is a little bit more in depth. That has 3 parts: Veeva has to be a positive for the people inside of life sciences. So the people that work in pharma and biotech that go to this conference, Veeva has to be a positive because their interactions with our products and people have to be good. It also has to be a positive for the second customer, which is the companies. So if we're -- our project is running at a small biotech or a large pharma, we have to deliver positive ROI and help that company. And the third is for the industry overall. We have to be a positive force for the industry, help it be more efficient and effective. We have to do our own little part to make JPM more vibrant because the industry is more vibrant. That's what we're aspiring to do, customer success. Employee success, pretty straightforward, it has to be a place for our team, place where they can do their best work. And speed reminds us to get things done quickly and correctly the first time to retain that start-up speed even as we grow. And then we're a public-benefit corporation. So we're a for-profit company, but we're not all about the money. It's not all about shareholders. We converted to a public benefit corporation about 3 years ago, so that we can be a good steward to this industry, and I'm really proud of that, and we'll talk about what that means. So when you're a public-benefit corporation, a Delaware Public Benefit Corporation, your legal duty at the Board of Directors level, which I'm a member of the Board as well as being the CEO, is to balance the interest of all concerned. So for us, that's customers, employees, shareholders, society in general. That's what our legal duty is. And when you think about what we're doing, which is trying to become essential to the people that are producing the world's medicine, that's a responsibility. We have to balance those interests. Now that helps us produce good returns because it helps us attract the right type of talent that's aligned to what we're trying to do. And you better believe that helps us deepen our customer relationships because the customers know they have a seat at the table. So we converted about 3 years ago, first company to convert to a public benefit corporation, and I couldn't be more happy with the results and how it sets everybody at Veeva at ease. Okay, this is the way it should be and this is what we're doing. Just a few facts about Veeva. So we're an innovator in industry cloud, industry-specific cloud software. I came from mainframe software and then early days, Salesforce.com, and then started this idea about, okay, industry-specific cloud software. And that was kind of a pretty novel thing in 2007. So we've grown since then, and we have over 7,000 employees, 1,400 customers, approaching $2.5 billion run rate in revenue, we're profitable, and we're growing. So we run a good business. So that's the basics about Veeva. What you'll hear today is how we have a large market opportunity and a little bit how and why we focus on product excellence and how important that is. You'll hear about our operating model and how that translates into a long runway of growth ahead. So you should get a real straightforward picture of Veeva. This slide represents our product strategy and that's something that has really come into focus, especially in the last year for Veeva. I feel very comfortable about our product strategy. This is the product strategy that will withstand the test of time, and we can grow into this product strategy over a long time. So our product strategy, software, data and services for life sciences with 3 main categories. One is Development Cloud, that's software to aid in drug development from clinical trials through the quality and manufacturing; Commercial Cloud, that's software to aid on the commercial side, so applications for sales, medical and marketing; and Data Cloud, that's industry-specific data sets made by Veeva that span from commercial to clinical in a few different categories and are tightly integrated with our software. Now all those 3 things that I talked about, so 3 big buckets. Within the buckets, there's suites; within the suites, there's applications. You'll see, there's over 50 applications. In some sense [ of summer ] are the market leaders, some are early, some we've just announced. But all these pieces are pretty modular. So you can start where you need to, and they're not applicable to all companies. Yes, all 50 are applicable to the top 20 companies, but to a small biotech, they may not need all of our products. So pretty modular and to serve the 200-person biotech or the 50,000-person large pharma. It's supported by business consulting, and that is the process consulting that sometimes goes along with our software, so where we can help companies with their operating models, what roles and responsibilities are best, what metrics to look at, how do you do the change management in and around our products? So this is what the industry cloud for life sciences is, and I'll talk about each of these 3 product areas. I'm not going to go through each one of these products. This is the Development Cloud, and you can see organized by area from clinical operations area, over tech quality, manufacturing, the drug safety. Within each area, there are multiple applications. Within an area, they are tightly integrated together, but they can also integrate across areas. Each of these applications has to be the best-in-class. Before Veeva, there would be a specialist company in every one of these areas, but that's hard. They don't have any leverage of relationships, they don't have any incentive to make the integrations work well. It's hard for them to recruit that top-class product people. It's as if back when I started, there wasn't SAP, there was just somebody making an accounts payable one and accounts receivable under project costing, that's hard, right? So that's when we started on Development Cloud in about 2010, I guess, 2011, that was the landscape. Now, we have good products in all these areas, but that's the struggle at Veeva, each product has to be great. So if I just call out a couple in the clinical data there, there's one called ePRO, electronic patient reported outcomes. That's an application that's actually used by patients to report on how they're feeling in a standardized way. The patient uses it. So that's very specific, and it's got to work. If you look over on the right side, there's a QMS, that's a very established application for us. That's a quality management system used by the internal pharma company to manage their quality processes across their whole manufacturing, used on the shop floor. So very, very different applications and everything in between, right, safety and regulatory. They all have to be great, and they all have to work together. What you'll see later is how do we do that? We have an operating model for this. We have roles and responsibilities to be a great multiproduct -- and controls to be a great multiproduct company. So sometimes people would just think, oh -- I do get people ask me like, "Gosh, how come Veeva keeps on getting lucky in all these areas? That's statistically impossible." We have an operating model. Just like a large pharma company has an operating model to have success across multiple products. They don't just keep getting lucky. We have an operating model. Now for Development Cloud, that's all supported by our Veeva Vault platform. That's our technology platform that we use to develop these applications, make it very efficient for us and for our customers to operate these applications. So that's where the common layer of all these things like workflow, security, reporting, configuration, user management, APIs, all that stuff is in the Vault platform so that we don't have to replicate it across each application, which, if you're a stand-alone company, you would, you have to replicate it and you'd ground yourself if you only have one of these applications. But also, it's much more efficient for our customers because they can develop skills around this platform, and it's transferable across applications. So that's Development Cloud. Commercial Cloud, that's for the sales, medical and marketing areas of pharmaceutical companies. So if you think of a biotech or pharmaceutical, they've got some important things that's on the mind of the CEO. They got their clinical trials, and they got their product launches. They got to get products approved. They got to make money from the products and treat the patients before the product goes off patent. Those are these 2 big areas. This is the commercial area. Commercial Cloud is software to help them do that. Again, it's organized by area with multiple applications. Now what's different here is this is where Veeva started in 2007 with our CRM product there, the one on the top left, and that was built on the Salesforce.com platform because, obviously, in 2007, we didn't have our Veeva Vault platform. That takes a long time, many years to do that. So we built CRM on the Salesforce platform. And about a year ago, we announced we were going to move that to our Vault platform, our own platform, which just makes sense. That's the newer platform, and that's how we have all of our other applications there. So that's a process that will play itself out over the next 5 years and we have our first customers live. So that's our CRM application, but there are many applications here, too. So I'll call out Crossix, an area that we have, very interesting. It's for health care marketing specific to the United States, so we can measure when there's a TV ad, for example, does that TV ad lead to what type of patients, seeing what type of specialists and getting on what type of therapy. So that's very, very, very specialized. It's a way to understand if I'm spending $100 million on digital marketing, is it being effective or not, and monitoring and change that. You can imagine how different that piece of software is from our CRM system, very, very different, but we're the leaders in both of those areas. We're the leader in measurement, media measurement with Crossix, we're certainly the leader in CRM with Veeva. And then we have an example of some things that are brand new. So our patient CRM where companies are wanting to track identified patients that opt in for a complicated medicine, that's a product we've just announced, we haven't even started the development of it yet. So what you'll see here from Veeva is we're very transparent. When we decide to do something, we want to tell people about it. So that's the way we develop partnership with our customers. We're not trying to hide things or worry about competitive advantage. Once we decide to do things, we tell people about it, try to organize the industry and try to execute on it because that's really where the rubber meets the road, is execution. Again, this is all on the Vault platform. That's the way forward. CRM, we're moving from the Salesforce platform to the Veeva platform, new Vault platform. So that's Commercial Cloud. Two sets of software. The next one is Development Cloud, the third one. And that's different. This is not about software products. These are about industry-specific data sets, created and curated by Veeva. So these are data products that you would subscribe to, not software products. And this takes a little bit -- this is a newer area for us. It takes a little bit more time to understand, I guess. But I'll just talk about the areas. From the left to the right, we have OpenData, which is our reference data. So that's the core reference data, list of doctors, hospitals, how they relate to each other, what are the specialties, et cetera, in more than 100 countries across the globe. That's used for compliance in sales and marketing. We're going to extend that to the clinical area that's to be used in operating your clinical trials, who are the clinical research sites and investigators. So this is the encyclopedia rather than each pharma company or biotech company creating their own encyclopedia. So that's reference data. Link is deep data. And that is -- think about it more as deep data -- a large corpus of data, complicated data model curated by Veeva, a curated data model with a very specialized interface on top of it, user interface. So you could consider it sort of something like a Bloomberg Terminal. The first and most advanced Link application is called Key People. That's an application that lets our pharmaceutical companies that are our customers keep track of the 1 million or so key opinion leaders around the world and follow them and what are they doing and who are the emerging key opinion leaders and quickly understand what they're doing. So sort of like a curated LinkedIn on steroids, if you would say, that's very, very specific to life sciences. We have a few thousand people, data stewards and machine learning algorithms, that are curating this type of data every day. They're not our employees, they are contractors, and it's a balance of humans, very specialized humans doing specific tasks and machine learning automation. We're going to extend Link to the clinical areas as well. You'll see that theme in the data we started in the commercial area. We're going to extend to clinical. Compass is another newer area for us, and that's for transaction data, specific to the U.S. market. So anonymous patient data, projected -- prescribing data of prescriptions and procedures and national and state-level sales data. This is data that pharmaceutical companies use to do incentive compensation, to do segmentation and targeting. This is the traditional area where people have used the IQVIA, the old IMS products for many, many years. This is a place where we're innovating here. And I think we're doing the equivalent level of innovation as we did like moving from client server software to cloud. What we're doing in Compass is a very disruptive innovation that some people are going to get and they're going to adopt, but it's going to happen slowly because it's a disruptive innovation. I fundamentally think we're building a better mousetrap, and that's a very exciting area for us. And then Pulse data. That's what we'll be introducing that product later on this year. That's where we'll make a data set based on the activity in our applications. So if you look at our CRM application, for example, we do know what's going on in the industry. Our pharmaceutical -- how are pharmaceutical companies reaching urologists in the Midwest? Well, we know that. We know that because that's recorded in our system. Now, the trick is to produce that data, produce that data set of data in a privacy-safe way globally around the world and use that to enable pharmaceutical companies, for example, to do better segmentation and targeting or engagement planning by knowing what the industry is doing. And the same will apply to clinical. If there was a -- if -- you can project into the future, a lot of people using the Veeva clinical applications, we might be able to produce a data set that provides visibility into the clinical trial ecosystem. How many people are on clinical trials? For a clinical trial in this specific disease area, what is the dropout rate? Is Canada trending up and Brazil trending down or not? What's going on? There's -- I hope you realize, there's no visibility into that. There's visibility into prices for stocks that's collected, and you all look at that and you can analyze that. There's not that visibility into what's going on with clinical trials, which are actually experiments on humans and very expensive ones. That's the type of innovation Veeva can bring with the Pulse data. And that's another very important point of why Veeva is a public benefit corporation. That has to be done right to have the trust of the industry and to do the right thing. There's not a software platform behind this data, but there is a platform behind this data, and that's common data architecture. So to do something like this across commercial and clinical, you're going to have to make some decisions such as, well, how many disease areas are there? Maybe there's 40, maybe there's 90. What are they called? What's the definition of them? How many kinds of health care providers are there? Maybe there's 9, maybe there's 14, maybe there's 12. How many specialties are there? Those are the decisions in medical oncology that Veeva will make so that we can provide a comprehensive data set in 2 areas, clinical and commercial across Reference data, Deep data, Transaction data and Pulse data. That's the trick that we're trying to do. So I know that's a lot of things to take in. But if you want to summarize it, we're trying to innovate in data in at least as significant a way as we innovated in software. Now there are some things here that's different. So for example, Pulse data, Pulse data is actually not possible to -- for anybody else to produce because you would need access to what's going on in our system, and that's not for sale. So it's a very interesting set of data that we can produce. Now I talked -- I showed the slide there, there's about 50 different applications, but they're all in different levels of maturity. And so we think about that. This product quadrant shows that every new product that we have or product area, it will start in the lower left. It will be an immature product with a low market share guaranteed when we announce it, right? What we want to do is move it up to the upper right where it becomes -- it's a mature product, it has a high market share, it's adding a lot of value for the industry and for Veeva. And that takes some time to get there. So you'll see 2 of our big areas, CRM and commercial content, they're up -- to the right. They are the market-leading applications, they are quite mature. We have to keep innovating on those things for sure. But we have other products like Compass, it's very early, small number of customers. Very, very early product. We have to keep with it, make that product excellent, get that adoption first with the early adopters and move it up into the right. So that's conceptually simple. We're all just moving orange balls up into the right, a lot of work behind that, but that's what we're doing. Another way to look at what we're doing is before Veeva started, it was more like on the left, you had a bunch of legacy software and legacy data sets that were all siloed in very different areas, and they didn't fit together, and that was just what you did because by the way, if you're a biotech company, a pharma company, it's not like you can operate your company without a drug safety system. You just can't -- that's not going to work. You're not going to just say, "Well, it's pretty simple, I'll just keep it on Excel. And maybe I'm not going to keep track of my patients in my clinical trial or maybe I'm just not going to get them to sign an informed consent form." You can't do that. It's a highly regulated industry. So that these disparate little applications, they didn't fit together. I think now we're well on our way to fitting the software applications together. That's in the middle. Now, we certainly have a lot more room to grow. Some of our products are not mature, not all of the customers have all of our products, but we can see what we're doing there. But going forward, we want to have the connected software and the connected data working together. So our software should be very aware of our data and operate well on our data, on our common data architecture. So our common data architecture, those things we talked about, that will become very well known to our software. And that's really what you want. If you're a pharmaceutical or biotech company, which many of you invest in these companies, what I think you would find when you dig in it, what -- they're trying to become more efficient and effective. And the only way to do that is through digital. Digital is really software and data and operating model working together. That's the only way -- or you can just tell your people to work harder and get smarter. There's a limit to that. You have to apply sometimes they would say technology, right? I prefer to use the word digital, and that sounds amorphous. But software, data and operating model, that's how you get efficiency. That's what Veeva is selling. Software and data that fits together, consulting to help with the operating model and the services that you need, that's what we're selling. We're selling efficiency, tools for efficiency. We're not biologists. That's -- our customers are biologists. We're digital people. So now I'm going to talk about the opportunity. It is a big opportunity. It starts with the industry. Pharma, biopharma and MedTech is about a $2 trillion industry. It's growing. Why is it growing? The science is evolving. We're curing stuff that couldn't be cured before, and people want that. They want quality of life and they want life itself. So it's a really good industry that's nowhere near solved. Life sciences is not like producing refrigerators. There's a lot of unknowns in how the body works and a lot of unmet needs, so it's got a long runway of growth. Computers are much more understood than the human brain, that's for sure. So our opportunity, we view that as a $20 billion TAM. And the way we calculate that is 1% of the overall industry. So why do we think that way? Well, what are we selling? We're selling digital, industry-specific software, industry-specific data sets, the services around that to make the life sciences industry be more efficient and effective, that is definitely worth 1%. That's how you get efficiency. It's that important. Now especially if Veeva starts to become a standard in certain areas, there is a compounding network effect. Why is Microsoft Word quite good? Well, it's quite a good product. But also, it's quite good because the business partners that you work with are also going to send you Word documents, and they didn't know how to use Word, and the person you hired knows how to use Word. So there's a network effect. There's that same network effect with Veeva technology. There's a lot of people that know how to deal with it and how to talk with it. So it's becoming a standard in that way. So the other way to look at it is of the products that we have today, and if we look at bottoms up which we do internally, the products that we have today, they represent well over 50% of this total TAM. Now there's more products we have to make and introduce, et cetera, but we have a clear line of sight to this TAM. Now, Veeva has to help the industry because otherwise, we're not a durable company. If Veeva doesn't help the industry, we're not a durable company. And that's one of the things also you can take away. Veeva's probably one of the more durable companies you will ever meet, even though it may not sound like it. Veeva is set up to run for generations. Why? Well, it's -- when you look at it, these are interconnected pieces automating in the industry and an industry that's not likely to go away because it has a lot of innovation going. So we're really -- and we're set up to be a public benefit corporation. So we're not going to get over our skis and hurt the corporation. So that's -- we're set up to be durable. And we really want to -- for every dollar we take in, we have to deliver at least $2 of value. Otherwise, it's not helping the industry. And I think we can certainly do that with our digital solutions again because it's the only way you can get true efficiency. It's the only way you can move the needle. So that's about our TAM, and we're about 12% penetrated in our TAM based on our projections for our ending -- for our revenue ending '24, a long way to go. Inside that $20 billion, here's how it breaks down by area. Clinical and commercial, those are the 2 biggest areas because they -- that's where the most of the work gets done and most of the applications are. Quality is actually quite big because also there's a lot of products in there, but that spreads out to companies like contract manufacturers and other service providers whereas our clinical products, that's only applicable if you're running a clinical trial. Our products in the quality area for manufacturing and for regulated processes, they span far and wide. Regulatory and safety, definitely very important areas, but they're smaller in scope. So that's how it breaks down by area. And then a good product strategy is all fine and a good market is all fine, but what's in short supply is execution. And we have a -- part of our operating model inside of Veeva, we say execution matters most. And we've said that for 15 years. So it's what you do. So how we execute, we have a good product strategy and good strategy for each product. When we make a product, we want to innovate and hire the best product team and just keep at it to have product excellence. Customer success is key, and that's our reference selling model. So 90% of the effort inside Veeva every day across thousands of people goes towards customer success because that's what the customer really will care about. Let's say, we have 50 products and a customer starts using 4 of them. Their impression of Veeva, Veeva the brand, will be, well, how did it go with those projects? That's the impression. So that's where the bulk of the effort is at Veeva, and it's distributed around 7,000 people. That's why we talk about customer success a lot. There's a benefit to having lots of products, we have cross -- because we have cross-sell. The negative is, let's say, we have an opportunity for 20 products in a customer. If we stink it up in one area, that's -- we're not just losing the opportunity in that area. We're losing half of that other 20, right? It's -- so you have a downside when you have a -- we have to be more cautious. A bad product causes us more problems than it would cause a stand-alone product company. So we have to really, really be cautious on that. But if we follow our operating model, that will lead to strong growth and profitability. And it's because of our values. We have -- everybody in Veeva has a consistent set of values, they know the operating model, and we have the trust of our customers. So that's the operating model, which we call the Veeva Way, and it's a written document in Veeva. When you come into Veeva, whatever your role is, you read the operating model, you try to understand it, you just try to understand, "Well, if I'm in product management, okay, that's how it relates for a product." That's what it means. And that's how product management relates to engineering and sales. That's what it is, and here are the metrics. So it's not a free-for-all. It's more like a manufacturing process. This leads -- this operating model leads into some interesting financials. So this is a chart that shows our spend, where we spend the money on the subscription side of our business? This is not related to do with our professional services side of the business. This is our subscription where we're making products. So we spend 2.5x as much in product than we do in sales and marketing, 2.5x. And in product is what you'd expect, research and development, software engineering, that type of things; and also delivering the service. So the cost of the compute and the monitoring, the operations, 2.5x the sales and marketing. I feel good about that because we use a reference selling model. And we actually don't want a customer to buy a product that doesn't fit. And if you spend too much on your sales and marketing, that might happen. You might have a customer buying a product that doesn't fit, which is a negative to us. We definitely don't want to do that. So we keep the sales and marketing costs low. That means we can pour the money into the product. If we're smart about what we're doing -- all things considered, if you're smart about what you're doing in your products and you spend more money in the products, you will end up with better products. Better products get a better price. You see that in cars, right? The higher-quality car gets the higher-quality price. That's the same way with software. It's not just -- if your product delivers more value, you get a better price for it. The way to do it is to invest smartly in your products, that's the best -- I've always thought that's the best way to get sales and marketing and efficiency, is make a better product that sells for a higher price rather than hire more salespeople. So that's -- I guess this is just the proof that we're [ living ] our operating model. You can see it in our financials. I think customers appreciate this. This is where they want to see us spending. And it's delivered good results to investors. We've always been frugal with our money. We raised a total of $7 million venture capital in the history of the company. We only used $3 million. I guess I figured I needed that extra buffer. And we've always grown our revenue and profit. We always wanted to just run a reasonable business that's profitable. And that's the way you can decide your self-worth is, are the customers willing to pay more than it costs you to produce what you're doing, okay, then you -- there must be some value there. And if not, it's inescapable, you're not producing value if the customers don't pay more than what it cost to make it. So I've always used it as a barometer. If we couldn't be profitable, something was wrong, and we had to fix it. And if we couldn't grow, we're running out of ideas or something else is wrong. So this is a measurement of the health of our customer relationships and our contribution to the industry. So I'm pretty proud about that because it represents what we're doing. We also try to be transparent with our investors, our shareholders and give long-term goals. So in 2015, we gave our first long-term goal. We said we're at $1 billion -- we're going to be $1 billion in 2020. In 2015, we said that, I don't know, we might have been $300 million in revenue, and I was really not for sure how -- we're still a relatively young company, and I didn't know how that was going to all happen to 2020. But I thought there is a few things and a few plans we had, and if we execute hard, we would put that vision out there, and we'd make it. And we did. We made it a year early, and so we made then a 2025 goal of $3 billion, and we're on track to meet that about a year early, and we'd like to make a 2030 goal here when the time is right. So this is our way to provide transparency to investors, too, similar to we -- this is our financial long-term plan. In the same way to customers, we're giving our product plan, our long-term product plan. So we want to tell you where we're going and hold ourselves accountable and do the best we can to meet these goals. And so far, we've done that. So I'll finish where we started. We have a big market opportunity. You saw that. We focus on products, and you'll see that as real as reflected in our financials. We have a proven operating model and that translates into a long runway of growth. I think we have 3 minutes for Q&A. All right.

Awesome. This is obviously a big conference...

Do I sit down? Do I stand up?

Up to you.

I'll stand up. I'll sit down.

All right. Big conference. I'm sure a lot of your customers are walking the narrow hallways. I'm curious, what are those conversations been like? And do you think you could frame the state of the industry right now?

Yes. I think it is. Every JPM is different. Some things aren't different, right? There's a lot of walking, you go up and down hills, there's rain and wind, that's the same. But it has a different flavor, and it's very fresh. The sentiment that you get is the leading indicator of other things. You can't see it in the results yet. I sense more optimism than last year. I sense more optimism and the CEO is more optimist in general. Not -- I didn't use the word exuberance. It's not bad, but I sense slightly more optimism, cautious optimism. Now that might like a real squishy thing. I think that actually matters. And I don't -- I had enough one-on-one conversations, probably at least 30 one-on-one conversations. And I don't think you missed that signal. I think it's irrelevant. So that's probably -- I didn't know if I would see that. And I think I am. I don't know exactly what's causing it. I think probably -- that's the science, people getting enthused. I was talking to one CEO, and they have a cell therapy, allogeneic cell therapy, and they've got their first 15 patients on it. And it saved those patients' lives, and they're really into it, and they think they can maybe do that in other therapeutic areas, right? So that's caused like, okay, wow, that's -- so there's that kind of enthusiasm around the science that's going on.