Visa Inc. (V) Earnings Call Transcript & Summary

Okay. Welcome everyone to the morning session here. This is one of our keynotes here as part of Day 3 of our 24th Annual Credit Suisse Technology Conference. Again, a 4-day event running Monday through Thursday. On behalf of my colleague, Moshe Orenbuch, together, we're happy to be hosting this session with Vasant Prabhu, who's the CFO of Visa. With that, we'd very much like to welcome Vasant to conference. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Thank you, Tim. Good to see you. Great to be here.

Okay. Great. Well, we've got a good list of topics here. I want to start out with one that comes up often in investor discussions around acceptance points within the global network. So here we are in 2020 heading into 2021, and you mentioned recently that acceptance points within your global network were up about 16% year-over-year and now at about 70 million merchants. And that number might have surprised some folks in terms of it sort of suggests that there was a lot of runway coming into this year. Maybe in a post-COVID world, you could talk a little bit about the cash-to-card penetration, or sort of the algorithm for overall payments volumes growth when we think about PCE penetration, new flows, et cetera.

Sure. Well, as you know, through the COVID period, we've seen a significant acceleration of the shift away from cash to digital forms of payment, whether it's in face-to-face transactions, and for sure, a shift in e-commerce. And that is an acceleration in the trend that was already underway. But despite that, it's still an extraordinarily long runway. As you saw, as you pointed out, there's been a significant increase in acceptance. If you look at the so-called developed markets, the U.S., Europe, where we've been at it for a very long time, there's still a ton of cash to digitize. Our payment volume across the network is about $8 trillion today. There's $18 trillion in cash still left. That has even gone up in the last 4 years, even though we've digitized a lot of cash. So that gives you a sense of how much more is left. And out of that $18 billion and $8 billion, or almost as much as the volume we have today globally is in the developed markets. And there are 3 vectors of growth that are still left in our traditional consumer payments business. You've got going into tinier kind of smaller and smaller merchants that's facilitated by substantial improvements in acceptance technology and all the efforts that people like Square and others are doing. There's the opportunity to go deeper and deeper into smaller and smaller transactions, and that's facilitated by things like contactless, which is so easy to use and so frictionless that people use it all the time. And the vast majority of transactions even in developed markets are smaller transactions that people used to use cash for. And then, of course, the third vector of growth is the shift to e-commerce, which, even though there's been an acceleration of the shift, there's a long way to go. I mean, e-commerce penetration was still quite low coming into this, and there's a significant amount of runway there. So we're by no means anywhere near a point where there isn't a significant opportunity even in the developed markets. And we've seen penetration levels for cash, for digital forms of payment and consumer payments go as high as the 90s in some countries like the Nordics and so on. And then you move to the emerging markets and the opportunity is even larger, right? You've got a significant amount of opportunity to build acceptance. Technologies have come in now that are drastically reducing the cost of adding acceptance points. You don't -- you no longer need an expensive point-of-sale device, you can use a smartphone. You don't need land lines, you can use mobile lines. So you've got people like the wallet people, who are rapidly expanding acceptance. We're working with most of them to embed our credentials in them. We think that there's about $2 billion in additional credentials that could go into wallets. So wallets are substantially enhancing the penetration into the unbanked, into people who are not in the financial mainstream. So there's a huge opportunity to add the number of users, a massive opportunity in the wallets to add acceptance locations and bring them into our network. And of course, all the new technologies are making it much easier for people even in emerging markets to use digital forms of payment. So -- and that's just talking about our consumer payments business before we even get to what we've talked about for the last 5 years, which is we move well past consumer payments into the moving money business, and that's $185 trillion opportunity in cash and check. Massive opportunities to digitize person-to-person payments, you know that. We're doing that through Visa Direct, that is still growing over 70%, even at a time like this. Massive opportunities in B2B. We're attacking it in multiple ways. We've got our traditional approach that go after e-cards and T&E cards and corporate cards. We've got B2B Connect that is going after the cross-border opportunity in B2B. And then of course there's the large enterprise B2B AR/AP, which is a future opportunity. There's $185 trillion in cash and check in that area, which is 10x what we have in consumer payments. And we no longer think of ourselves as strictly digitizing consumer payments. As you know, we think of ourselves as moving money, and there's a vast expansion in use cases that come with that. And so our view is the 10x opportunity we talked about is still available. Things like what we saw in the last few months have accelerated some of the trends that are already underway. But the opportunity is so big that, if anything, many new opportunities are moving along faster in the money movement space than they were a year ago. So there's no end in sight in terms of the runway for growth.

Thanks, Vasant. And I'd add my welcome also.

Thank you, Moshe.

You alluded to the contactless phenomenon in your prior answer. I wanted to drill down on that a little bit. That's -- obviously, that rollout is still underway or well underway in the U.S. That's something that's helped drive smaller-dollar transactions, although admittedly, it's more of a card-present or in-person phenomenon for the most part. But could you talk a little bit about, number one, the idea that this -- that those transactions have their own incremental data processing fee, and I think would therefore have somewhat higher yields. But also the fact that there's been, I think, the studies that we've seen have suggested incremental -- 20% incremental more transactions per cardholder when a customer is used to doing -- gets used to using the contactless card.

Yes. As you said, contactless, something we've been talking about for a few years. And when we started talking about it, I'm sure some people were scratching their heads as to why is Visa so excited about this. Look, our business is to make payments as easy and frictionless as we can make them. And the more easy and more frictionless we make them, and the more, let's say, pleasurable the experiences, if you can call it a stat, the more people are going to use digital forms of payment. And as we saw contactless evolve outside the U.S., it became obvious to us that this was something that consumers loved. What we typically saw in most markets is that the adoption rates were extraordinary. And there's sort of an adoption curve here. The first couple of years, there's a chicken and egg thing. You want people to have cards that are contactless-enabled. If they don't, they can't use it. You want merchants to enable contactless. And then consumers have to feel confident that they can use contactless at almost every merchant. And then they start using it and then they're hooked. And then what happens is that they abandon cash payments almost entirely because tapping a card is so easy than fumbling in your wallet for cash and the change and all that. And in addition, it speeds up lines, so merchants love it. And so it takes a couple of years to get to critical mass. And by year 3, it starts to take off. And when it's in takeoff mode, you can see penetration jump from, let's say, it went from 0% to 7% penetration of all transactions jump into the 90s within 2 or 3 years. We've seen that in Australia. We're seeing it happen now in Europe. And what it does is a few things for us. Number one, just the fact that we've created a much more frictionless form of payment is an advantage for us over other forms of payment. So it increases the propensity for people to use our cards or our forms of payment. Number two, because it's so easy, people start using it for smaller and smaller transactions. And that's exactly what we want to develop, which is that we see an increase in the number of transactions because now people are using it for smaller and smaller transactions which in the past, they might have used cash for. And then the third, of course, is that they displace even tapping their phone. So we see very often that people may have been using other forms of payment, that they were tapping phones. And now they realize that tapping their card is so much easier than fumbling with your phones. And even comparing to that and people start abandoning those forms of payment. And we're making progress everywhere in the world. We've seen through the COVID months, a substantial increase because cash is dirty. People don't want to handle cash. And even in markets where it doesn't take off more, it's even accelerating. We've seen some substantial increases in penetration that we've talked about on our calls. And as it relates to the U.S., we're making good progress. The U.S. is a laggard. Took a while to get everybody in the U.S., the banks, the merchants, to move into the direction. But now we've got 21 of our top 25 issuers are in the process of issuing contactless cards. We'll probably get to 300 million cards live in the U.S. as contactless by the end of 2020. That's about 1/3 of the cards we have outstanding, so we still have a ways to go. We have a vast majority of merchants now, about 260 of the top 300 U.S. merchants are contactless-enabled. So now we're getting to the point where the U.S. We very close to critical mass. In another year or 2, as consumers start to adopt using contactless, we should start to see that big increase that we saw in other markets. And what that means is that there's about 55% of all U.S. transactions that are less than $10, and they are in cash. And so there's a big opportunity here to digitize these smaller-ticket transactions as contactless really begins to take off in the U.S. So we are very excited about it. It's just one vector of growth that is going to help us in the next few years. It certainly helped us already outside the U.S. And the fact that cash has become so unattractive to use is only adding some momentum to it.

Excellent. Vasant, thank you so much. I want to shift the conversation just briefly, and then we'll head back to some of the more longer-term topics. But let's shift over to the recent update that Visa put out, the 8-K, just touching on some of the trends you observed in November.

Sure. So we put out an 8-K yesterday just to give you a sense of how the business was doing. I won't go through the numbers specifically because I'm sure you've all seen the numbers. But I'll give you some sense of sort of what we're seeing. You might have seen, as you went through the 8-K, that trends will be good to most in November. One important thing I want to point out is the last paragraph we had in the 8-K. It's important, I think, for us to sort of highlight a few things. We are in an unusual time with COVID going on. And the result of that, what we are seeing, and as you've seen, where people shop, when people shop and on what they spend is changing. And so you sort of have to -- if we get into the holiday season, I think you have to be careful not to draw too many conclusions from 1 day or 1 week because of these changes going on. So just to give you an example on the issue of where people shop. You've seen a substantial increase in [ form of ] shopping, not surprisingly. Fewer people are going in store to shop. Although as you know, as economies have opened up, that has steadily picked up. As you get into last week of November, and you can see it in the numbers, at present shows a debt. And that's because you're now lapping Thanksgiving week from last year when there was a lot of in-store shopping. And of course, there isn't as much in-store shopping this Thanksgiving week. So that doesn't necessarily tell you how the holiday season is going to play out because we saw an uptick in e-commerce that week, but that could very well spread out over the next few days or weeks because people didn't go into the store, but doesn't mean that shopping won't happen online. It doesn't mean it has to happen on the same day or the same week. So there's going to be these kinds of changes from year-to-year, so you have to interpret the numbers with some caution. The other thing we saw last week, for example, that relates to COVID is that we did see an uptick in e-commerce, and we saw people spending more on retail goods. But one of the reasons the last week was a dip down was, at certain categories like food spending, certain other categories like restaurant spending, were lower than they were last year because people didn't have big Thanksgiving dinners at their homes, or family didn't come over like they used to, or they didn't feel comfortable going out to restaurants. So there are holiday-related changes on year-to-year that you have to keep in mind. So that's the whole questions of sort of where people shop. And then there's the issue of when people shop. So it's very likely that people who spread out their shopping now that they're doing more of it online. Certain days in which they used to go out and shop, they may not go out and shop, but that shopping will show up online, added on a different day or over a period of time. For example, as you get towards the end of the holiday season, people often went in store to shop because they didn't have enough time to get the goods shipped online or get forgot something. We'll have to wait and see what happens this year. What do people do for last-minute shopping? Does the online shopping trend go deeper into the holiday weeks? Does in-store part of it that happened in the last 2 weeks drop off? So there are still question marks about when we will see the spending come in. And then there's, of course, the on what? And the question is, how much of the spending that is going into areas that are benefiting? So for example, retail goods is very strong. Home improvement is very strong. On the other hand, people are not traveling as much, people are not going to restaurants as much, not as much entertainment. So the question is, how much of the spending that is not happening in these areas is going to go in goods shopping? And in total, where will we end up? So I think our view is that we won't have a clear picture of this holiday season until we get later into it. The good news is forward looking -- October was strong. November was strong all the way through. Then we hit the holiday week. We'll have to watch and see where the trends are for the next few weeks before we get a clear picture on the holiday season. As it relates to the rest of the world, it's country by country, it depends on various factors, various holidays, et cetera. Another point I would make is we're tracking infections to see if there's a correlation between infections and spending, and I'm sure you are, too. What we're finding is that there isn't as much a correlation between fashions and spending as there is between mobility and spending. So it appears to us that, even as infections climb, if it doesn't affect mobility, either because people are still willing and comfortable moving around or governments are not imposing restrictions, it tends not to impact spending as much. So the index that we find that's more predicting -- predictive of what is going to happen with spending is mobility more than infections itself. Now certainly, these are early indications. We'll need to monitor it as we go through. But all in all, the general takeaway from the trend is that the recovery trend we saw through the last quarter and into October is largely intact. We'll have to watch the next few weeks to see how the holiday season pans out. And on the cross-border front, e-commerce remains very strong. Cross-border travel, we told you, it depends on opening borders. A few borders are open, we see some traffic there. But otherwise, it's all about the e-commerce growth in cross-border that is holding it up, and we did see some improvement there from month-to-month. So that's a general sense of sort of the trends we're seeing. And we'll tell you more when we talk to you in January.

Great. Could we maybe move to one of the other topics that we'd really like to discuss. And that Visa has made some great progress building relationships with some of the leading fintechs. Sometimes, Visa has taken an investment in some of them. And there's certainly been a number recently. Revolut, which I think has got 7 million Visa cards. But you've also had success with Chime, Square's cash card and many others. Could you talk a little bit about how -- what the steps that you've needed to take to be successful with this group of companies? And how big do you think that this bucket of current issuers could be over time?

Well, I mean, clearly, this is an important, new vector of growth for others. There's a lot of innovative business models being created. You mentioned a few. We certainly are partners with most of them. They are becoming very important partners of us on a -- for a variety of reasons. For example, in the Visa Direct business, we have the ability to enable a lot of new use cases. In every case, the way to scale these use cases is through partners. And these partners are typically what you might call fintechs. So for example, P2P. We are -- it's a major opportunity. We've been at it for a while. We have a variety of partners there. On-demand payroll, big opportunity, a variety of partners there that are helping us scale the business. Moving to disbursements of various varieties, again, scaling those use cases. A bunch of fintechs doing that, installments. So one critical area that fintechs can help us on and that we work with, and we can help them scale, it's a mutually beneficial relationship as we can help fintech scale very fast, is enabling new use cases. Another great opportunity for us is in emerging markets, the partnerships with wallets as wallets have brought more financial inclusion as they've increased the amount of acceptance of digital forms of payment and as they realize that working with us can help them create revenue streams, whether it's issuance revenue streams or acceptance revenue streams, embedding our credentials in wallets, allowing our credentials to be used at the points of acceptance for wallets has been another important avenue for growth and a critical partnership. In addition, there are fintechs doing cross-border, like Revolut revenue. And all the partnerships we have with Remitly and other remittance providers. So clearly, when it comes to all the vectors for growth in our business, building acceptance, adding more people with the ability to use digital forms of payment, i.e., bringing more people into the world of digital payments. Scaling new and innovative use cases is where these fintechs have a very large role to play. They're here to say. They're a critical part of the future growth of the industry. As far as working with them, I think what we have done, and we've made a lot of progress on this in the last few years, is how do we make it easy for them to use our network, right? It's very important to be -- make the on-ramp, so to speak, easy. So we have a fast-track program to bring them on board, do it in a way that is least disruptive from their standpoint, do it in a way that allows them to use all our capabilities very fast. Certainly, the Plaid acquisition is aimed at having a company within the Visa system that truly understands fintechs. It's been built by developers, for developers, et cetera, that allows us to offer more services to fintechs. So we're very focused on both how we can help them scale and how we can make them easy -- or make it easy for them to do business with us. And so far, so good. We're making great progress all over the world.

Excellent. Thank you, Vasant. I want to shift gears to the potential for European share gains ahead. So Visa completed the global platform migration over to VisaNet in Europe in late 2018. And we gathered that prior to this, Visa wasn't going to market with maybe its full set of global capabilities and might not have had the same level of success that's either occurring now or could be ahead. And we fully realize that some of the contracts are longer-term in nature. But maybe you could talk us through the European business pre-Visa Europe acquisition, shortly after, and then how things are evolving now that we're a few years post.

Sure. Yes, I think you can sort of look at it in terms of a couple of phases. So clearly, when we acquired Visa Europe, it was a membership association. And by definition, it was given more to serving the members and the membership was concentrated more in the U.K. and France and not as strong in certain parts of Europe, Central Europe, in particular, and parts of the Benelux. So Visa Europe was overdeveloped in many ways, you could say, or had deeper penetration and share in the U.K., France and to some extent countries like Spain. So the first order of business was to stabilize and maintain the clients that came with the acquisition, and we did that very successfully. The second part of business was then to transition them to the VisaNet platform so that all the capabilities of Visa were available to all our clients in Europe. And that's been done. So in the past 2 years, we've been very focused on them taking advantage of everything we now have available to enhance our business in Europe. And the returns on that are now becoming more evident in our numbers. Clearly, the opportunities were on multiple fronts. One, we've substantially updated the quality of our team there. We have substantially increased the resources dedicated to those parts of Europe that were underserved. They're calling on clients that Visa Europe did not call on in the past, and they're delighted to hear from us and eager to do business with us. So there's clearly been great progress on the continent of Europe in building our business, in switching business from competitors, in making headway into business that may have been with local schemes and so on. And some of these things take time to show up in your numbers because conversions have to be done, transitions take time and so on. We also had significant success with adding our value-added services and growing them. We've enhanced the penetration of many of our value-added services in Europe, whether it's CyberSource or CardinalCommerce, that does authentication; traditional value-added services like fraud and so on. So clearly, adding services and building the value-added services business has been another avenue for growth. Beyond that, there was a lot of fintech activity in Europe. When Visa Europe was independent, it was not something, unfortunately, that they focused on much. We made enormous headway in the last couple of years and more in really focusing on fintechs in Europe. It's night and day. You saw the progress we made with Revolut, and that's happened with a whole range of other impacts. Moving past that, Europe is moving along on open banking, and we see a ton of opportunity in new payment flows. Earthport is, as you know, based in the U.K. Earthport gives us extraordinary access to bank accounts. We're making significant progress in Europe on flow front, too. So there's many avenues for growth in Europe, and you saw some of that in our numbers last quarter where we saw a nice increase in the growth rate. Now some of this was helped by some things going on in the U.K., but we need to take that out. You can see the impact of the wins coming in. You can see the impact of just greater penetration of acceptance. Don't forget in Europe, in certain parts of Europe, there's still tremendous opportunity to digitize payments. Whether it's Southern Europe, like Italy or Greece or elsewhere or Eastern Europe, there's still plenty of acceptance to grow. There's very good opportunity to digitize cash. And you're seeing all that go through. So we feel very good about it. Clearly, it's a multiyear effort. But I think from our standpoint, momentum right now is very good.

Vasant, you alluded to kind of the services revenue. And I think that was really expected to be a mid-teens percentage of revenue. Could you talk a little bit, maybe just expand a little bit about the success of that? Obviously, that revenue stream probably has had better growth characteristics than the business overall.

Yes. So we did talk about this at our Investor Day to give you a much better driver for all our services. And we gave you some sense of the size because we don't break it all out in 1 single line. And the good news is that our services revenue grew 18% in fiscal year '20 despite COVID. I think the fourth quarter growth is about 15%, but for the full year, growth was in the 18% range and tells you that it's quite resilient even in these times. And we also said that we expect mid-teens growth to continue in '21. Just to give you more of a flavor for sort of where services revenue is in our revenue line. I think we've told you that about 2/3 of it is in our data processing line. And the reason for that is many of these are transaction-driven businesses, and the pricing is on a per-transaction basis. And so going back to the IPO, a lot of these revenues were in that line. And most of the businesses that show up in the DP line, one of the reasons why the DP line grew quite fast in the last quarter and through COVID despite the decline in transactions was because we had some of the services revenue there. CyberSource is in there. CyberSource is doing extremely well. CyberSource is benefiting from the shift to e-commerce, from the shift to omni-commerce. With the acquisition of Payworks and other things they have done, they are very capable of providing omni-commerce solutions, which are very much in demand. We just -- we've become a big enabler for acquirers to offer omni-commerce capabilities to their merchant clients. So we work through our acquirers to enable them to do omni-commerce and other services for their clients. We just signed with Barclay Card, one of the largest acquirers in Europe, which is utilizing CyberSource to support their merchants' digital payment journeys and e-commerce and omni-channel requirements. CyberSource also has a risk product, so we're seeing some nice growth there globally. So CyberSource is a source of growth. CardinalCommerce, our acquisitions from 3 years ago, is doing extremely well. CardinalCommerce provides authentication services. It's network-agnostic, some great global opportunities. It's growing very fast in Europe. And then we also have in our core fraud services and risk management services, and those also have some nice growth. Especially as transactions move to e-commerce, there's greater interest in these fraud services. And then 1/3 of the remaining revenue is split between our service revenue line and the other revenue line. The service revenues have some of the top benefits that we offer as part of our package of our card services. And then the other revenue line has our consulting services and our data services. And we're seeing some very nice growth there in consulting services. Visa Analytics Platform, which is a data product, has grown significantly last year. One reason the other revenue line is impacted is that it also has some of the marketing and travel-related card benefits. So when we offer marketing services to clients, or lounge and concierge services, to consumers of our clients, cardholders, those we see there's not as much take up for that in these COVID times. So even as our consulting and data businesses are growing, the other revenue line includes things like these marketing and travel-related services that are not growing, but they will recover and that line will start to show that. So we'll continue to build our value-added services portfolio. You've seen us do acquisitions in this area. In many cases, we're willing to provide these services in a network-agnostic way. Our Bell ID tokenization capabilities allow us to tokenize any transaction, not just those on our rails. Verifi, our acquisition from about a year ago, provides dispute resolution capabilities. So there's a -- and now we just acquired YellowPepper, which is going to be a very easy way for many of our issuing clients to offer network or network-side capabilities, which is very easily connect to multiple networks, as part of our overall strategy of being a network of networks. So clearly an area of growth. Clearly good progress. Clearly growing through the pandemic. And more growth expected as we head into '21.

Great. So I think you sort of alluded to a lot of the topics on the next question. But if there's anything to add, we'd love to hear your thoughts around the capability additions. Many of them have been -- you've gone different routes: Partnering, building, buying. Maybe you could just think -- talk about some of those capabilities you're looking at and how you think about that decision.

Yes. Look, our approach to capabilities is this is a business with partnerships. And there are certain things we are very good at, there are certain things our partners are good at. And it's a win-win when you can partner. We can help them scale fast. They can help us build use cases and markets fast. So partnership is the primary mode of growth in our business. But then there are a certain set of what we call -- what we would consider core capabilities where we say owning the capability is important rather than partnering for it. And then we can build it or buy it, and we've done both. And typically, our preference is to build. But where it is faster or cheaper to buy the capabilities and we're willing to do that, too. Earthport was a casing point where it gave us very fast access to over 99% of bank accounts in close to 80 of the largest countries. We could have built it, but it would have taken time. We think we got the portfolio at great value, and it's going to create extraordinary value for us. Similarly, in the case of Verifi, our feeling was they only built a network. We could build it, we were already doing something along those lines. But it was just faster and more effective for us to buy it. So acquisitions will be in situations where a capability is something we feel can be done better and faster if we go out and buy it. We also do things like investing in companies. We invest in a lot of companies that we partner with. Occasionally, we may invest in a company that we think could be bought. Payworks was an example of that. We made an investment a few years ago, we bought them a year ago. YellowPepper was another example. Typically, that allows us to get to know the company. We get to know how well they can scale. We get to know whether we can effectively partner with them to build our business. And if that's true, then we might buy them. And that's been our approach. We don't have a budget for acquisitions. It's really a function of what makes sense to do.

Great. One thing I did want to touch on is that buy now, pay later has been a very rapidly growing area within e-commerce. Some of the players are doing this through the existing rails, and some are trying to connect to the merchants directly and avoid the card rails. Can you talk about Visa's place in the buy now, pay later space? And how you think -- how you serve your customers on both sides of that? And how you think that's going to evolve?

Yes. I mean, look, I think buy now, pay later is a big new way of paying. I mean, it's been around a long time, but the way it's being done now by a variety of players, I think, is a big long-term growth opportunity for them and for us and for our issuers. We've been at it for a long time. We started with our investment in Klarna years ago. Klarna was one of the pioneers in the business. We're delighted to have partnered with them to start working with them with how we can use our rails to get done what they're trying to get done. We also invested in PAYD. And then we partnered with all the major players, Afterpay and Affirm, Splitit, et cetera. So we've been going at it in a partnership mode for a very long time. And then in most cases, our goal is to help these people get what they want them and use our rails where it makes sense to use our rails, or the network or network's approach where it's needed. In addition to that, we're also enabling it on our rails. [ where it look like ]. And what we're doing there is, if our issuers want to offer this, we are making our rails available to offer installment solutions. So we are already able to go to partners like TSYS, is the first issuer technology partner to offer our new installment solution to point of sale in the U.S., to participate in financial institutions. Commerce Bank is the first bank in the U.S. to begin an installments pilot with a planned commercial launch. And even through CyberSource, we're working with acquirers and fintech installment providers such as Sezzle and ChargeAfter to enable this sort of new way to pay for CyberSource's merchant customers. So yes, I think it's a watch-this-space kind of thing. There's a big opportunity here. And we're going after it on multiple fronts because we don't quite know yet. Exactly how this all will play out in the long run.

Great. Great. Thank you, Vasant. With the minute or 2 we have left, I wanted to see if we could briefly touch on a comment you made earlier, actually. You referred to some of your partnerships with the large remittance providers. And I believe in the past, you'd talked about relationships with many of them. Maybe you could talk a little bit about what this gives these remittance providers in terms of expanding the breadth that they're able to offer in terms of account-to-account payments, how many markets they can add, how quickly they can integrate with you and the progress you've made on many of these partnerships.

Sure. Yes. And I'll do it quickly because I know we're running out of time. Look, I think this is a phenomenal opportunity for us and for them. Remittances are almost -- I think they're bigger than foreign direct investment in terms of money flows that go globally. What we do is they give them extraordinary flexibility and lower cost. So it used to be you had to go to an agent, give the agent cash. The agent would send the cash to another agent and the other agent would disburse cash. Very expensive, very inflexible. What we can do is you can sit in your home if you're sending cash. Let's say I want to send it to you and you're in Mexico. I can sit at home, I can use my card, I can use my bank account. I can do any way I want to send the money. I can then get it to you. I can send you a prepaid card that is reloadable and you can just get it on your card. Or you can -- I can give it to you in a bank account or I can give it you on your debit card. So I can send money card to card, account to account, account to card, any which way you want, as well as the extraordinary amount of access we provide in terms of the number of countries under Earthport and the number of accounts we can reach. So it's massive increase in flexibility in terms of what a remittance company can provide their customers than they could before. And we can do it all at a lower cost. So it's flexibility in costs, and we think it's only the beginning. We're very excited about this. This is a business we were never in because we were never comfortable with the merchant approach and all the risks that came with it with KYC and AML and all that. We now have a solution and it's early days, and there's plenty of growth available there in the long run.

Vasant, thank you so much. On behalf of Moshe and I and Crédit Suisse as a whole, we want to thank you for making the time to be with us here today and be a keynote as part of the third day of our conference. We look forward to our next chance to speak with you.

Thank you. Bye.

Thank you so much.